NSNO | Everton Forum

NSNO Forums => The Everton Forum => Topic started by: .Rimbo. on November 28, 2010, 05:32:09 AM

Title: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on November 28, 2010, 05:32:09 AM
Blarg summed it all up well for me on another forum.

"David Moyes is making me fall out of love with Everton."

I know we're loitering by the trap door but I genuinely couldn't give a shit at the moment, he's drove me away.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Jamokachi on November 28, 2010, 05:34:33 AM
wwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa a

I'll elaborate on this: Is there any need to start another thread on Moyes, to have yet another moan? We know you're pissed off with Moyes, we've known for months. It's tedious in the extreme to come on here and thread after thread be a recurring theme.

Oh, and the reason you're pissed with Moyes is because he's not matching the expectations you've got that he has instilled. Why is he not matching these expectations? Because we're standing still as a club, financially.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Bluenose 91 on November 28, 2010, 05:43:28 AM
wwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'll elaborate on this: Is there any need to start another thread on Moyes, to have yet another moan? We know you're pissed off with Moyes, we've known for months. It's tedious in the extreme to come on here and thread after thread be a recurring theme.

Oh, and the reason you're pissed with Moyes is because he's not matching the expectations you've got that he has instilled. Why is he not matching these expectations? Because we're standing still as a club, financially.


Word.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on November 28, 2010, 05:47:57 AM
wwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'll elaborate on this: Is there any need to start another thread on Moyes, to have yet another moan? We know you're pissed off with Moyes, we've known for months. It's tedious in the extreme to come on here and thread after thread be a recurring theme.

Oh, and the reason you're pissed with Moyes is because he's not matching the expectations you've got that he has instilled. Why is he not matching these expectations? Because we're standing still as a club, financially.

You're right, he's not reaching my lofty expectations.

So are we the 16th best squad in the Premier League?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Connavar on November 28, 2010, 05:48:02 AM
Jamo mate that's what it all boiled down to, but people can be very narrow sighted sometimes (not directed at you personally rimbo matey). The fact that Beckford was our major signing of the summer, and players resigning contracts where used as plus points and headlines should really have started ringing alarm bells. I read an article the other day on another forum which said that we should be embarrased by our renewed shirt sponsorship with Chang when you take into account other clubs deals, I can't argue with that. The way were run is better than what it was, but were still miles away from other clubs. The inability to sufficiently build the squad over the past two seasons is only one mans fault.

That team is Moyes' though. He bought each and everyone of them, and the style of play is the style that he has trained the players.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: NoMoreJackieChan on November 28, 2010, 05:53:47 AM
wwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'll elaborate on this: Is there any need to start another thread on Moyes, to have yet another moan? We know you're pissed off with Moyes, we've known for months. It's tedious in the extreme to come on here and thread after thread be a recurring theme.

Oh, and the reason you're pissed with Moyes is because he's not matching the expectations you've got that he has instilled. Why is he not matching these expectations? Because we're standing still as a club, financially.

Since when has using the right tactics cost fucking money balloon head?



Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Jamokachi on November 28, 2010, 05:55:15 AM
You're right, he's not reaching my lofty expectations.

So are we the 16th best squad in the Premier League?

We seem to have one of the worst strikeforces. We all knew in the summer we needed a proven, top quality striker. We got two teenagers and a league fucking 1 player on a free. Add goals to our games this season and we wouldn't be in this position.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: ilikebrunettes on November 28, 2010, 05:56:18 AM
I cant stand to even look at him anymore. In fact i genuinely do hate him now.

he is ruining my love for this club. I just laughed today when the 3rd and 4th went in, thats Moyes fucking fault
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Gash on November 28, 2010, 06:00:10 AM
What's the shock in Blarg coming out with that. He falls in an out of love at the drop of the hat. Just look at all the women he's fallen out of love with.  :whistle:

Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: ally2 on November 28, 2010, 06:06:31 AM
I've put the boot in on Moyes in the past but not on this occasion.  I begrudgingly accept that our football has improved over the years.  He often plays 2 strikers now (albeit later on in the game) despite knowing Cahill threat will be less.  Plus no money.  I feel the blame is more to do with the players and board.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Jamokachi on November 28, 2010, 06:06:57 AM
Since when has using the right tactics cost fucking money balloon head?

Care to explain where I made that comment?

I'm not defending Moyes on how the team played. I'm providing perspective. Moyes has given us fans these expectations of challenging for a CL place. He's done that against all odds and without financial backing. Now, with players not performing we're being found out. We've stood still for a couple of seasons and we're paying for it. Yes Moyes needs to pull his finger out and get the team playing better, and the players need to take responsibility too.

Things won't change though, because as long as we've got this board we're never going to progress to where the fans think we should be.

Now unless you have a valid point, kindly fuck off you melt.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: NoMoreJackieChan on November 28, 2010, 06:13:00 AM
Care to explain where I made that comment?

I'm not defending Moyes on how the team played. I'm providing perspective. Moyes has given us fans these expectations of challenging for a CL place. He's done that against all odds and without financial backing. Now, with players not performing we're being found out. We've stood still for a couple of seasons and we're paying for it. Yes Moyes needs to pull his finger out and get the team playing better, and the players need to take responsibility too.

Things won't change though, because as long as we've got this board we're never going to progress to where the fans think we should be.

Now unless you have a valid point, kindly fuck off you melt.

Haha you bit

I'm not reading the above you just wasted your life that you'll never get back

Who is the melt now you bum boy

 :woohoo:
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Jamokachi on November 28, 2010, 06:20:35 AM
Too right I fucking bit, have you not seen any of my last four and a half thousand posts? They're mostly filled with abuse and hatred. And it's not time wasted, I'm using a forum, if I had anything better to be doing, I'd be doing it, idiot.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Gash on November 28, 2010, 06:27:34 AM
I'm sensing a bit of Stav lovers on this thread.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Jamokachi on November 28, 2010, 06:29:08 AM
I'm sensing quim.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Thomas on November 28, 2010, 06:46:47 AM
Blarg summed it all up well for me on another forum.

"David Moyes is making me fall out of love with Everton."

I know we're loitering by the trap door but I genuinely couldn't give a shit at the moment, he's drove me away.

My article sort of hints at this. Know exactly what you mean.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: brap2 on November 28, 2010, 06:47:13 AM
I'm sensing quim.
i wish i had that as my special power.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Thomas on November 28, 2010, 06:49:09 AM
This sums it up

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/retreating-everton-would-be-small-beer-for-beckham-2145729.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/retreating-everton-would-be-small-beer-for-beckham-2145729.html)
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Jamokachi on November 28, 2010, 07:06:43 AM
What? A match report?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Thomas on November 28, 2010, 07:09:19 AM
What? A match report?

Oops, wrong thread.

But whilst where at it, isn't trying to sign Beckham like Walter Smith signing Ginola?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Jamokachi on November 28, 2010, 07:16:14 AM
It'd make commercial and marketing sense, I don't think Ginola ever did.

Plus it'd get Arteta off corners.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Gash on November 28, 2010, 07:16:17 AM
Oops, wrong thread.

But whilst where at it, isn't trying to sign Beckham like Walter Smith signing Ginola?

I think Beckham is ever so slightly better than Ginola was. Although they've both had some seriously bad hairdoos over the years.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Verm on November 28, 2010, 07:40:36 AM
At the end of the day we have the 7th best squad in the league, we are not 7th, we aren't 7th now.

Who's fault is that?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Gash on November 28, 2010, 07:42:32 AM
At the end of the day we have the 7th best squad in the league, we are not 7th, we aren't 7th now.

Who's fault is that?

Blarg's.  :hmph:
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Thomas on November 28, 2010, 08:06:13 AM
I think Beckham is ever so slightly better than Ginola was. Although they've both had some seriously bad hairdoos over the years.

HAHA!
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Bob Sacamano on November 28, 2010, 08:25:08 AM
Madness
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Ridge on November 28, 2010, 09:02:28 AM
I think Blarg likes Beckham too much.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: fastseanbar on November 28, 2010, 10:13:06 AM
If I may put my point across...

I genuinely feel that we have reached the glass ceiling in tems of finances and resources available to us. Many people want Moyes out, but this man has had to deal with extremely compromising financial situations that other managers would walk out on. In my honest opinion, I feel that this has to rub off on the players. Say what you want, but a lack of ambition shown by the club would have detrimental effects on the majority of players, especially when you see rival teams strenghtening. There is only so long that " team spirit" and "brotherhood" can take you in the modern game, and Moyes has utilised it to the maximum.

I felt that the signs were there when we sold Lescott. It sent out the mesage that we are, to a degree, a selling club. Also it broke this false myth that the squad were brothers all in it together for the good fight.

I hope I am dead wrong on this, but the FA Cup Final felt like the peak of Moyes' Everton.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on November 28, 2010, 10:35:32 AM
If I may put my point across...

I genuinely feel that we have reached the glass ceiling in tems of finances and resources available to us. Many people want Moyes out, but this man has had to deal with extremely compromising financial situations that other managers would walk out on. In my honest opinion, I feel that this has to rub off on the players. Say what you want, but a lack of ambition shown by the club would have detrimental effects on the majority of players, especially when you see rival teams strenghtening. There is only so long that " team spirit" and "brotherhood" can take you in the modern game, and Moyes has utilised it to the maximum.

I felt that the signs were there when we sold Lescott. It sent out the mesage that we are, to a degree, a selling club. Also it broke this false myth that the squad were brothers all in it together for the good fight.

I hope I am dead wrong on this, but the FA Cup Final felt like the peak of Moyes' Everton.


You could be right .... In fact on reflection its closer to the truth than many of us realise , ...and I find that sad . As much as that performance pissed me off yesterday ,I still want Moyes to be succesful , He rescued us when we were dead on our feet when nobody expected him to , and for that he deserves our  respect .
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: adam b on November 28, 2010, 02:37:18 PM
If I may put my point across...

I genuinely feel that we have reached the glass ceiling in tems of finances and resources available to us. Many people want Moyes out, but this man has had to deal with extremely compromising financial situations that other managers would walk out on. In my honest opinion, I feel that this has to rub off on the players. Say what you want, but a lack of ambition shown by the club would have detrimental effects on the majority of players, especially when you see rival teams strenghtening. There is only so long that " team spirit" and "brotherhood" can take you in the modern game, and Moyes has utilised it to the maximum.

I felt that the signs were there when we sold Lescott. It sent out the mesage that we are, to a degree, a selling club. Also it broke this false myth that the squad were brothers all in it together for the good fight.

I hope I am dead wrong on this, but the FA Cup Final felt like the peak of Moyes' Everton.

This is spot on.
 January is a real worry for me,as the prospect of a mass exodus looms large - or am I paranoid. Either way, we will be without Cahill and most likely Pienaar as soon as January comes. The problem after 2009 was the same as after 2005 - we needed to bring in better quality, but we will never be able to under the current regime
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Derek on November 28, 2010, 03:13:08 PM
I'll always love Everton. Like any genuine relationship it goes through it's ups and it's downs. It's just a bit of an argument at the moment. We've had much bigger fallings out.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Silas on November 28, 2010, 03:24:46 PM
Making me fall out of love with Everton?  Fickle much.  I attended games during Walter Smith and Mike Walker,s eras.  Anyone who thinks we are bad now has some short term memory loss or must have disappeared for long periods over the nineties!  Jamo makes a great point.  Our expectations are inflated by Moyes building us up and he will pay the price for that ultimately as we love to knock them down.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Polledreng on November 28, 2010, 03:26:21 PM
Making me fall out of love with Everton?  Fickle much.  I attended games during Walter Smith and Mike Walker,s eras.  Anyone who thinks we are bad now has some short term memory loss or must have disappeared for long periods over the nineties!  Jamo makes a great point.  Our expectations are inflated by Moyes building us up and he will pay the price for that ultimately as we love to knock them down.
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Tasslehoff on November 28, 2010, 03:40:14 PM
If I may put my point across...

I genuinely feel that we have reached the glass ceiling in tems of finances and resources available to us. Many people want Moyes out, but this man has had to deal with extremely compromising financial situations that other managers would walk out on. In my honest opinion, I feel that this has to rub off on the players. Say what you want, but a lack of ambition shown by the club would have detrimental effects on the majority of players, especially when you see rival teams strenghtening. There is only so long that " team spirit" and "brotherhood" can take you in the modern game, and Moyes has utilised it to the maximum.

I felt that the signs were there when we sold Lescott. It sent out the mesage that we are, to a degree, a selling club. Also it broke this false myth that the squad were brothers all in it together for the good fight.

I hope I am dead wrong on this, but the FA Cup Final felt like the peak of Moyes' Everton.


Great post, wish the more vocal minority would feel like this too..
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Bob Sacamano on November 28, 2010, 06:29:53 PM
I'll always love Everton. Like any genuine relationship it goes through it's ups and it's downs. It's just a bit of an argument at the moment. We've had much bigger fallings out.

This

Making me fall out of love with Everton?  Fickle much.  I attended games during Walter Smith and Mike Walker,s eras.  Anyone who thinks we are bad now has some short term memory loss or must have disappeared for long periods over the nineties!  Jamo makes a great point.  Our expectations are inflated by Moyes building us up and he will pay the price for that ultimately as we love to knock them down.

And this
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Fern on November 28, 2010, 06:35:12 PM
Making me fall out of love with Everton?  Fickle much.  I attended games during Walter Smith and Mike Walker,s eras.  Anyone who thinks we are bad now has some short term memory loss or must have disappeared for long periods over the nineties!  Jamo makes a great point.  Our expectations are inflated by Moyes building us up and he will pay the price for that ultimately as we love to knock them down.

This!

Maybe Rimbo you just weren't old enough (or conscious enough) to know what it is like under Mike Walker and Walter Smith. Moyes is the one and only that has given us highs in recent years. Go away and think about it properly.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Connavar on November 28, 2010, 06:58:03 PM
But he's also brought terrible lows. Fast Lane's post is spot in. I've said a number of times that with the financial resources we have at the moment the FA Cup Final was as far as were going to get. Even though however I don't agree with Rimbo and other posters that Moyes should go, I understand their frustrations. Every season is the same. Why is it always a slow start? Why is it that we always have to take a tonking off a team? Why is it that were so unsuccessful without Neville in the team? Why are we so dependent on Cahill and playing 4-5-1? Mike Walker was a joke of a manager, but put him aside, how many times under less successful managers that Moyes have we been beaten and I mean well and truly beaten conceding 3, 4, 5 and maybe more goals? Since Moyes has been here I can think of at least one game per season when we've conceded these kinds of results. That's fucking embarrasing. Why does no one else have these problems? Moyes has been in charge nearly 9 years, the only managers who have been at the helm of EPL Clubs longer are Sir Alex and Wenger. How often have these teams conceded these kind of results? Even when SAF took over United who were probably in as bad a shape as we were when Moyes took over. I used to think that Moyes had a positive mentality, but over the years I know he doesn't. Sure he has turned attitudes around from when Smith was in charge happy to draw every game. The difference between us and other teams I feel is that we don't have a winning mentality in the team. Neville is the only one for me who has this, and it was probably engrained in him from his early days at United. Look at both United and Arsenal now, both have teams that, compared to previous teams they've had in the league, are pretty poor. But they're still pushing at the top of the league. I think given the time, Moyes will turn this season around. I think he has earned our trust. Given the money, I believe he can turn us into a consistent CL team as well. He still has a lot of learning as a manager though, and I think it's safe to say, he'll never be a Ferguson or a Wenger.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Bob Sacamano on November 28, 2010, 06:59:39 PM
This thread should be in the Moyes out forum.

Oh, sorry, over at the SOS forum.

Shit forum that. One constant broken record.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Fern on November 29, 2010, 12:07:45 AM
But he's also brought terrible lows. Fast Lane's post is spot in. I've said a number of times that with the financial resources we have at the moment the FA Cup Final was as far as were going to get. Even though however I don't agree with Rimbo and other posters that Moyes should go, I understand their frustrations. Every season is the same. Why is it always a slow start? Why is it that we always have to take a tonking off a team? Why is it that were so unsuccessful without Neville in the team? Why are we so dependent on Cahill and playing 4-5-1? Mike Walker was a joke of a manager, but put him aside, how many times under less successful managers that Moyes have we been beaten and I mean well and truly beaten conceding 3, 4, 5 and maybe more goals? Since Moyes has been here I can think of at least one game per season when we've conceded these kinds of results. That's fucking embarrasing. Why does no one else have these problems? Moyes has been in charge nearly 9 years, the only managers who have been at the helm of EPL Clubs longer are Sir Alex and Wenger. How often have these teams conceded these kind of results? Even when SAF took over United who were probably in as bad a shape as we were when Moyes took over. I used to think that Moyes had a positive mentality, but over the years I know he doesn't. Sure he has turned attitudes around from when Smith was in charge happy to draw every game. The difference between us and other teams I feel is that we don't have a winning mentality in the team. Neville is the only one for me who has this, and it was probably engrained in him from his early days at United. Look at both United and Arsenal now, both have teams that, compared to previous teams they've had in the league, are pretty poor. But they're still pushing at the top of the league. I think given the time, Moyes will turn this season around. I think he has earned our trust. Given the money, I believe he can turn us into a consistent CL team as well. He still has a lot of learning as a manager though, and I think it's safe to say, he'll never be a Ferguson or a Wenger.

But that's just it  "given the money" as you say. But Moyes has never really had an ample amount to spend and especially to spend at the right times- which is key. Yes, he has a safety approach first but it has served u well in the recent past and because we don't have cash to spend on the attacking power we need.. Remember we came 5th twice which is a magnificent feat for a manager without real spending power. You cn't compare him to Wenger and Ferguson becuase they have had different environemnts at their repective clubs. It's too easy to say They would have done better at Everton than Moyes has, it doesn't work like that. All I can se is that we've made a coniderable amount of progress but we as supporters have to also learn, that it's too easy to change from an safety type side to a real postive one because we do not possess the "tools" or "weapons" to do so. Spurs can with pacey/quality players because the have Defoe, Lennon and Bale; Man Utd can with Rooney/Nani; Chelsea can with Kalou/Malouda; we cannot. Moyes has done the best he can with the equipment he has (so to speak).
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Chazman on November 29, 2010, 02:36:06 AM
A relationship with Everton Football Club isn't a love affair,it is a marriage.You are joined for life.Through good and bad. Yes,yesterday  was shite,but we have seen worse.Remember Tranmere?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Tinga on November 29, 2010, 02:45:48 AM
Another Moyes thread? one of the mods should just merge them.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on November 29, 2010, 03:11:45 AM
I think the original poster wanted people to actually read it though
lolol lolol lolol
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Chazman on November 29, 2010, 03:14:23 AM
Another Moyes thread? one of the mods should just merge them.


It isn't a "Moyes Out" thread though is it mate? It's about people finally having enough of where Everton are going and saying they are falling out of love with them.Fall out of love with Moyes....Easy....Fall out of love with Kenwright....easy peasy. Fall out of love with Everon Football Club? NEVER!!!
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Paul. on November 29, 2010, 05:07:37 AM
Blarg summed it all up well for me on another forum.

"David Moyes is making me fall out of love with Everton."

I know we're loitering by the trap door but I genuinely couldn't give a shit at the moment, he's drove me away.

Then Blarg needs a reality check. Moyes is not Everton. Everton have been going a whole lot longer than Moyes has been here and will still be going once Moyes is dead and buried. I'm quite sure a lot of people have felt a hatred for every single manager we have ever had. But there love for the club remains undiminished.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on November 29, 2010, 01:31:34 PM
Then Blarg needs a reality check. Moyes is not Everton. Everton have been going a whole lot longer than Moyes has been here and will still be going once Moyes is dead and buried. I'm quite sure a lot of people have felt a hatred for every single manager we have ever had. But there love for the club remains undiminished.

correct .... I have never heared so many sour negative and miserable lightweight fans as a certain section of ours ... What happened to the " Born not created " ethos ? Moyes has done more for this club than anyone over the last 10 years and some of you are deserting because of a blip? .... grow up  ??? ::) :o
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Tony Clifton on November 29, 2010, 03:46:52 PM
It'd make commercial and marketing sense, I don't think Ginola ever did.

Plus it'd get Arteta off corners.

This, but I doubt he'd touch us with Posh's.  He'll go to a London club.  Or the shite.

Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Connavar on November 29, 2010, 07:06:06 PM
But that's just it  "given the money" as you say. But Moyes has never really had an ample amount to spend and especially to spend at the right times- which is key. Yes, he has a safety approach first but it has served u well in the recent past and because we don't have cash to spend on the attacking power we need.. Remember we came 5th twice which is a magnificent feat for a manager without real spending power. You cn't compare him to Wenger and Ferguson becuase they have had different environemnts at their repective clubs. It's too easy to say They would have done better at Everton than Moyes has, it doesn't work like that. All I can se is that we've made a coniderable amount of progress but we as supporters have to also learn, that it's too easy to change from an safety type side to a real postive one because we do not possess the "tools" or "weapons" to do so. Spurs can with pacey/quality players because the have Defoe, Lennon and Bale; Man Utd can with Rooney/Nani; Chelsea can with Kalou/Malouda; we cannot. Moyes has done the best he can with the equipment he has (so to speak).

No one is arguing that point. Everyone knows that Moyes has taken us as far as he can with the resources available, thats painfully obvious. That aside however, what the argument is, is Moyes' supposed tactical ineptness. West Brom are a Championship team that are playing ok at the moment. A team like that should not even in a million years be dreaming of coming to Goodison Park and winning in the manner they did. The financial backing, or lack thereof had absolutely no direct baring whatsoever to Saturdays result. The team we had out there, where a team that a couple of weeks ago was being touted for Champions League place.

But again, you're mising the point, or at least mine. You say Ferguson, Wenger and Moyes can't be compared, but they can. How else do you measure success? Can Kendall and Moyes be compared? The game is different now to what it was in the 80's, but in 50 years time, people won't take into consideration the "Top 4". They'll look at trophies won, compared to what? A 4th place finish? FA Cup Finalists? Jesus, does Nil Satis Nisi Optimum mean nothing to Evertonians anymore? When Ferguson took over United, they weren't as different as Everton were when Moyes took the job. They hadn't won a trophy in 20 odd years. Old Trafford had seen better days. They were a team on the decline. 15 years later, Ferguson had led United to back to back Premier League wins, Champions League win, FA Cup winners, compared to what with Moyes? Fair do's he still has a while to go before he gets 15 years with us, but you begin to see my point? Now the difference there between United in 86 and Everton in 02 was who was/is in charge of the respective clubs. United had a board who had the drive, ambition and business acumen to take them to where Ferguson wanted. We have Kenwright.

But put finances aside a minute, as we all know, or should see at least how catastrophically the board has let down the manager, players and fans, what my main point was, even when Ferguson and Wenger were building the dynasties that they currently preside over, how often did they have to sit through performances like we did at the weekend? Its not the first time for us. Since 2002 how many times have we had to sit through teams put 4, 5, 6 or 7 past us? How many times has that happened to Ferguson and Wenger. Moyes is supposed to be the best manager "outside the Top 4". I'll be honest, i fucking hate Redknapp, i think he is one of the most overrated people in football today, but how often has Spurs, or Pompey when he was in charge their suffer those kind of results? What about Rafa Benitez when he was at Liverpool. I'd like to say the that at 3pm, its the players that cross the white line and take the responsibility, but think about it? 5-1 at City in 2004; The away UEFA Cup leg in 2005; Arsenal how many times? How many times have we failed to turn up for a derby game? The results last season against Benfica and then again away at Sporting. There is only 1 common denominator here. I love Moyes, and what he has done for the club. But there is onbly so many times you can be humiliated before you have to say enough is enough.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: GLewis on November 29, 2010, 07:23:57 PM
No one is arguing that point. Everyone knows that Moyes has taken us as far as he can with the resources available, thats painfully obvious. That aside however, what the argument is, is Moyes' supposed tactical ineptness. West Brom are a Championship team that are playing ok at the moment. A team like that should not even in a million years be dreaming of coming to Goodison Park and winning in the manner they did. The financial backing, or lack thereof had absolutely no direct baring whatsoever to Saturdays result. The team we had out there, where a team that a couple of weeks ago was being touted for Champions League place.

But again, you're mising the point, or at least mine. You say Ferguson, Wenger and Moyes can't be compared, but they can. How else do you measure success? Can Kendall and Moyes be compared? The game is different now to what it was in the 80's, but in 50 years time, people won't take into consideration the "Top 4". They'll look at trophies won, compared to what? A 4th place finish? FA Cup Finalists? Jesus, does Nil Satis Nisi Optimum mean nothing to Evertonians anymore? When Ferguson took over United, they weren't as different as Everton were when Moyes took the job. They hadn't won a trophy in 20 odd years. Old Trafford had seen better days. They were a team on the decline. 15 years later, Ferguson had led United to back to back Premier League wins, Champions League win, FA Cup winners, compared to what with Moyes? Fair do's he still has a while to go before he gets 15 years with us, but you begin to see my point? Now the difference there between United in 86 and Everton in 02 was who was/is in charge of the respective clubs. United had a board who had the drive, ambition and business acumen to take them to where Ferguson wanted. We have Kenwright.

But put finances aside a minute, as we all know, or should see at least how catastrophically the board has let down the manager, players and fans, what my main point was, even when Ferguson and Wenger were building the dynasties that they currently preside over, how often did they have to sit through performances like we did at the weekend? Its not the first time for us. Since 2002 how many times have we had to sit through teams put 4, 5, 6 or 7 past us? How many times has that happened to Ferguson and Wenger. Moyes is supposed to be the best manager "outside the Top 4". I'll be honest, i fucking hate Redknapp, i think he is one of the most overrated people in football today, but how often has Spurs, or Pompey when he was in charge their suffer those kind of results? What about Rafa Benitez when he was at Liverpool. I'd like to say the that at 3pm, its the players that cross the white line and take the responsibility, but think about it? 5-1 at City in 2004; The away UEFA Cup leg in 2005; Arsenal how many times? How many times have we failed to turn up for a derby game? The results last season against Benfica and then again away at Sporting. There is only 1 common denominator here. I love Moyes, and what he has done for the club. But there is onbly so many times you can be humiliated before you have to say enough is enough.

I know what you mean about the humiliations, but you're then using two examples of managers who haven't been humilitated who have also spent large sums of money to ensure that they're not. They have also been at those clubs a lot less time than Moyes. Would you have noticed if Pompey lost heavily at home?

With regards to SAF at Utd, yes the game is different but he'd taken on a team that had won the Cup in 1983 & 1985 and had finished 4th in 1984, 1985 and 1986. It's hardly comparable to what preceeded Moyes.

Though your main point stands in respect to that argument in that they had lots of money to spend, whereas we don't.

To Rimbo's (Blarg's) original point though, I find it naive and spoilt to say that a manager who has by and large been very positive for Everton is making you fall out of love with the club as a whole.

Frustration is everywhere, we're all feeling it, but I think a large dose of contemplation over the exact meaning of that comment is needed. If they still feel like that afterwards, I would say that, at best, they are very misguided.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: webby003 on November 29, 2010, 08:11:37 PM
Jesus, there are some moaning fickle twats on here. its one bad "half" of a season. Shut the fuck up and let the man do his job, he'll come through like he always does
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on November 29, 2010, 08:32:07 PM
In the last 10years (according to statto.com) the only teams to have gained morepoints than us are Utd , Chelsea , Arsenal and Liverpoo ...
In that time Moyes tooka team that was worth about 25p with 5 players on massive wages for thart time , Ferguson Campbell , Ginola , Gazza and Blomquist , with no hope of a return from any of them , He has assembled a squad that by his own admission with 2 phone calls could wipe out the club debt , he still has the ability to pluck gems out of the air for nothing (Seamus) ... We are going through a bad spell and our closest opponents finances have reisen whilst ours has stood still/...It would be a financial disaster to get rid of Moyes .. he's a chairmans dream , his £65k/week 5 year contract has been funded by the dealing for one player , Lescott ... If he was to go he'd get knocked over in the rush for ambitious chairmen to sign him ... on a better wage !!! in the sure knowledge that they are on a winner ...
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Thomas on November 30, 2010, 06:26:55 AM
As Si said, you want the manager to be angry, you want him to learn from things, and currently i think he's making a few mistakes and doing little to learn from them.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: marky v on November 30, 2010, 07:13:22 PM
I have loads of time for moyes he's the best thing to happen to everton for many a year but a few things still grate on me an thats his options he has Baines as the only first team left back yet has Hibbert, Neviile and Coleman for the right, he has Pienaar, Bily and Gueye for the left an again nothing on the other side so we play Osman or Coleman out of position he has struggled to get a balanced team through his own faults as all but Hibbert were his buys, that said he always come through for us with performances and results in the end but i don't think the man helps himself out
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 12:18:03 AM
We seem to have one of the worst strikeforces. We all knew in the summer we needed a proven, top quality striker. We got two teenagers and a league fucking 1 player on a free. Add goals to our games this season and we wouldn't be in this position.

Well, as I said earlier, we've conceded 27 in 15, so our defence is hardly great either. You'd have a point about the strikeforce, as would nomorechang with his 'if we had a Gyan/Bent..' point, had Moyes not mismanaged the strikers at the club as terribly as he has done. If he would've stuck with Yakubu after he started finding his feet and then he wasn't performing, gave Beckford a try after the Bolton game (or even sooner) and they weren't performing fair enough. But they've both looked comfortably better options than Saha this season and they've found themselves looking on from the bench in most games. So that's Moyes' fault.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 12:20:17 AM
Care to explain where I made that comment?

I'm not defending Moyes on how the team played. I'm providing perspective. Moyes has given us fans these expectations of challenging for a CL place. He's done that against all odds and without financial backing. Now, with players not performing we're being found out. We've stood still for a couple of seasons and we're paying for it. Yes Moyes needs to pull his finger out and get the team playing better, and the players need to take responsibility too.

Things won't change though, because as long as we've got this board we're never going to progress to where the fans think we should be.

Now unless you have a valid point, kindly fuck off you melt.

Yes, he has risen expectations, I've never dodged that. He's done fantastically to assemble the squad he has, as I consistently point out, but that doesn't mean he's exempt from failure. The last two seasons have been dire and this one is even worse given that there's no injury or Lescott excuses, and the squad is far better than 16th. It's not even like we've been very unlucky in a lot of games. A lot of the time we've been pretty poor, leaked goals and looked incoherent and lacking in ideas going forward.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 12:22:27 AM
If I may put my point across...

I genuinely feel that we have reached the glass ceiling in tems of finances and resources available to us. Many people want Moyes out, but this man has had to deal with extremely compromising financial situations that other managers would walk out on. In my honest opinion, I feel that this has to rub off on the players. Say what you want, but a lack of ambition shown by the club would have detrimental effects on the majority of players, especially when you see rival teams strenghtening. There is only so long that " team spirit" and "brotherhood" can take you in the modern game, and Moyes has utilised it to the maximum.

I felt that the signs were there when we sold Lescott. It sent out the mesage that we are, to a degree, a selling club. Also it broke this false myth that the squad were brothers all in it together for the good fight.

I hope I am dead wrong on this, but the FA Cup Final felt like the peak of Moyes' Everton.

He's done great with the finances he's had, but now he's got the squad he is grossly under-achieving, and people are cutting him far too much slack. He fucked last year up and he's doing the same now. We cannot afford to stand still unfortunately, the squad is here, at it's peak, and wasting away because of a negative, backwards-thinking manager.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 12:24:17 AM
This!

Maybe Rimbo you just weren't old enough (or conscious enough) to know what it is like under Mike Walker and Walter Smith. Moyes is the one and only that has given us highs in recent years. Go away and think about it properly.

Admittedly I don't remember that much of the Smith/Walker eras compared to most on here but I could flip that on it's head and say maybe you lot have distorted views on the current progression of the team having see those days. I, however, don't constantly compare it to those areas so I know more clearly when we are grossly underachieving.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Thomas on December 01, 2010, 12:26:28 AM
Admittedly I don't remember that much of the Smith/Walker eras compared to most on here but I could flip that on it's head and say maybe you lot have distorted views on the current progression of the team having see those days. I, however, don't constantly compare it to those areas so I know more clearly when we are grossly underachieving.

Hmm, maybe you have a point.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 12:26:48 AM
Jesus, there are some moaning fickle twats on here. its one bad "half" of a season. Shut the fuck up and let the man do his job, he'll come through like he always does

No, it's not fickle is it. Or was it fickle last season and the season before that (start)?

He'll come through and make us finish 8th, which will mean we'll be out of Europe and be grossly underachieving, considering the squad is capable of 4th.

I wouldn't mind if we finished 5th or 6th and lost out to pure quality from other sides, but this squad doesn't even look like a team at the moment. For that, it all comes back to Moyes.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Confucius on December 01, 2010, 12:27:07 AM
I will never not love Everton   :'(
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: evertonjoe on December 01, 2010, 12:27:32 AM
Well, as I said earlier, we've conceded 27 in 15, so our defence is hardly great either. You'd have a point about the strikeforce, as would nomorechang with his 'if we had a Gyan/Bent..' point, had Moyes not mismanaged the strikers at the club as terribly as he has done. If he would've stuck with Yakubu after he started finding his feet and then he wasn't performing, gave Beckford a try after the Bolton game (or even sooner) and they weren't performing fair enough. But they've both looked comfortably better options than Saha this season and they've found themselves looking on from the bench in most games. So that's Moyes' fault.

We've conceded 19 in 15 not 27.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Verm on December 01, 2010, 12:38:13 AM
Admittedly I don't remember that much of the Smith/Walker eras compared to most on here but I could flip that on it's head and say maybe you lot have distorted views on the current progression of the team having see those days. I, however, don't constantly compare it to those areas so I know more clearly when we are grossly underachieving.

This all over.

Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Scouse Ruletero on December 01, 2010, 12:42:05 AM
No, it's not fickle is it. Or was it fickle last season and the season before that (start)?

He'll come through and make us finish 8th, which will mean we'll be out of Europe and be grossly underachieving, considering the squad is capable of 4th.

I wouldn't mind if we finished 5th or 6th and lost out to pure quality from other sides, but this squad doesn't even look like a team at the moment. For that, it all comes back to Moyes.

Do you not think it comes back to the players as well, arguably as much and maybe more so than Moyes?

These players are boss. These players are great. Arteta is wonderful, We gave him a record breaking contract. We didn't sell Pienaar in the summer (maybe we should have but that's another thread). We handed new deals to Cahill (who has done great - 8 goals so far), Rodwell (who has been injured), Coleman (who when given his chance has done well, overall), and Baines. Everything was 'set up' for a top 4 challenge.

What has happened? The players have vastly underachieved, that's what. Arteta's form has been shocking. Is Pienaar's mind elsewhere, especially now? Why doesn't he like to shoot? Johnny Heitinga gets worse and worse with each passing game. Moyes has clearly given up on Bily, given that he's playing Coleman on the right and Pienaar on the left. Howard looks shaky, and Jags has been off form. Saha does nothing and is almost as bad as Heitinga.

Moyes showed faith in his players. He didn't sell anyone. He handed out new deals. He's loyal to a fault with certain players. And yet he gets s*** on from a great height by a few of them. Sure, Moyes tactics are poor at times, as are his tactical changes. But is this any different from previous seasons? No, the difference this season is that certain players aren't playing for him, for whatever reason, and that's just plain sad.

The situation can be easily turned around, but Moyes needs to act decisively in January. History has shown that Moyes is capable of acting fast and being ruthless when he wants to be (departures of Kroldrup and Jo in previous Januarys, for different reasons, has shown that.

It's hard, but faith is needed at this point, as bad as things seem.

As for Moyes making people fall out of love with Everton, well.... Moyes made many thousands fall back in love with Everton in the 2000s. I'd suggest that the likes of blarg are falling out of love with 'modern football' as a whole, rather than Everton per se. Either that, or letting a bad start to the season affect their judgement.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Silas on December 01, 2010, 01:43:25 AM
Yes he does, it would be daft not to give Moyes a large part of responsibility in here recent form.  He gets the plaudits so yes when things are wrong he is not beyond criticism either.  It comes down to your belief in whether Moyes can turn it around and then if you think he can take us beyond were we have been.  I think he can but the board seems split on it. 
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Silas on December 01, 2010, 01:56:25 AM
I agree that he and this team are stuck in a rut.  Saddled with expectation he, the players or both seem to come unstuck.  The board need to back him with funds in January but it won't happen.  Without any I feel sorry for the bloke 65K or not.  Unless he does another Houdini this season the Moyes Out chants will be on the lips of fans before Kenwright's is.  Sad and very wrong but true.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Stumpy on December 01, 2010, 02:15:10 AM
Yup i'm sorry to say that's spot on,we are stuck in a rut and looking stale.We badly need to get a couple in in january to freshen things up,but as silas said there's no fucking chance with kenwright and his pocket money financing.I'm clinging to the hope that Landon will come back for a second spell and maybe scrounge somebody who knows how to stick the ball in the net or at least have a go at shooting outside the box.I've had nothing but good to say about moyes from day one,but it's time for him to stand up and do something about this declining situation.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Ridge on December 01, 2010, 02:47:47 AM
I think Moyes is currently in the most important part of his progression as a manager. He may have been here a while and brought the players in, but their roles are changing and we are trying to step forward as a different side.

This season, we have looked to control games, impose our style and dominate possession. For past years we have been calling for this progression, to be less direct, patient and with a more technical interchange of passing. On the whole we have controlled games, but we have been caught out the other end, on the break too many times. So many games after 70 minutes, we've had 55% possession or more, 20 odd shots vs 2 or so shots and been losing.

You can pin all the blame on Arteta as he is the one we are possibly expecting to do more killer passes or create chances. But you need at least a couple of players that can do it, as many teams have limited us further by closing Arteta all the time. When that happens, you need players like Pienaar to step in, you need strikers to keep getting in good positions and when you create a chance, bury it once in a while.

Teams have been doing to us, what we have been doing to other teams for years. Soaking up pressure, then using the space at the other end to fashion a chance to take the lead, then protect it.

Without enough guile in the last third, from more members of the team and good movement upfront, we have become somewhat toothless. I think bringing Saha back in, was reverting to type, he doesn't always move to link with midfield as often and often looks isolated, waiting for a half chance to feed him. But getting back to winning form, from a different style isn't a quick transformation.

I think saying Moyes should have learned by now how to have players performing a more controlling style, is expecting too much. He excelled getting a team to perform with a backs to the wall mentality, but that doesn't mean he should know how to make a team play like Barca.

We don't always have the variety options of other teams, but there are some which I would rather we didn't employ but may work short term as a plan b. Fellaini going upfront with Cahill to use the aerial threat, use Vic and Coleman on the wing as more direct players to make something happen. Bringing Pienaar more centrally to have a wider range of options to create a chance, or even moving Cahill back and using Beckford as the attacking midfielder who joins the striker upfront.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Confucius on December 01, 2010, 03:59:54 AM
I made a thread before the start of the season talking about how I don't know if our squad has the ability to perform with pressure and especially the pressure of expectation. i remember being shot down then. Fact is, our squad does not have the mental fortitude to succeed. The blame for that is both management and players.

http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,6389.0.html (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,6389.0.html)
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Thomas on December 01, 2010, 11:01:17 AM
I think Moyes is currently in the most important part of his progression as a manager. He may have been here a while and brought the players in, but their roles are changing and we are trying to step forward as a different side.

This season, we have looked to control games, impose our style and dominate possession. For past years we have been calling for this progression, to be less direct, patient and with a more technical interchange of passing. On the whole we have controlled games, but we have been caught out the other end, on the break too many times. So many games after 70 minutes, we've had 55% possession or more, 20 odd shots vs 2 or so shots and been losing.

You can pin all the blame on Arteta as he is the one we are possibly expecting to do more killer passes or create chances. But you need at least a couple of players that can do it, as many teams have limited us further by closing Arteta all the time. When that happens, you need players like Pienaar to step in, you need strikers to keep getting in good positions and when you create a chance, bury it once in a while.

Teams have been doing to us, what we have been doing to other teams for years. Soaking up pressure, then using the space at the other end to fashion a chance to take the lead, then protect it.

Without enough guile in the last third, from more members of the team and good movement upfront, we have become somewhat toothless. I think bringing Saha back in, was reverting to type, he doesn't always move to link with midfield as often and often looks isolated, waiting for a half chance to feed him. But getting back to winning form, from a different style isn't a quick transformation.

I think saying Moyes should have learned by now how to have players performing a more controlling style, is expecting too much. He excelled getting a team to perform with a backs to the wall mentality, but that doesn't mean he should know how to make a team play like Barca.

We don't always have the variety options of other teams, but there are some which I would rather we didn't employ but may work short term as a plan b. Fellaini going upfront with Cahill to use the aerial threat, use Vic and Coleman on the wing as more direct players to make something happen. Bringing Pienaar more centrally to have a wider range of options to create a chance, or even moving Cahill back and using Beckford as the attacking midfielder who joins the striker upfront.

Really good post that. Agree with much of it.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 01, 2010, 12:42:05 PM
I too agree with much of Ridge's very good post , it has actually struck me that a lot of " lesser " teams seem to have modelled themselves on a previous incarnation of ourselves . One thing I might add to this is our normally weak right hand side has lately been bolstered by a Nev/Seamus combination , this was not there on Saturday...  .. coincidence?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Haile GAZrselassie on December 01, 2010, 12:52:54 PM
Ridge's post is an excellent one. But the fact remains Moyes needs money. Blarg should have said Kenwright is making me fall out of love with Everton, not Moyes. It's a sad fact of modern football you dont compete at the top end of the league without money. It's this that's making me fall out of love with football full stop.

Look at some of the players we have been linked with in the past that have bags of flair but deep down we knew we wouldn't be signing them because of a lack of funds.

I still maintain that we're a top class finisher away from being where we know the squad is capable of being.

You put someone like David Villa, Drogba or Higuain in the positions Beckford has found himself in recent weeks and we're sat in 4th or 5th imo.

Fernando Llorente at Athletico. Kenwright should pull out all the stops and throw caution to the wind and give Moyes the 15 or 20m euros needed to sign him and we'd be a different proposition.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 01, 2010, 01:20:51 PM
Ridge's post is an excellent one. But the fact remains Moyes needs money. Blarg should have said Kenwright is making me fall out of love with Everton, not Moyes. It's a sad fact of modern football you dont compete at the top end of the league without money. It's this that's making me fall out of love with football full stop.

Look at some of the players we have been linked with in the past that have bags of flair but deep down we knew we wouldn't be signing them because of a lack of funds.

I still maintain that we're a top class finisher away from being where we know the squad is capable of being.

You put someone like David Villa, Drogba or Higuain in the positions Beckford has found himself in recent weeks and we're sat in 4th or 5th imo.

Fernando Llorente at Athletico. Kenwright should pull out all the stops and throw caution to the wind and give Moyes the 15 or 20m euros needed to sign him and we'd be a different proposition.

Spot on . conversely if you gave Moyes Man City's squad with the league as it is currently IMO citteh would be miles ahead by now ..
If at the start of the season Moyes was looking for a striker does anyone honestly think Beckford was his 1st choice ? had he been able to outbid Sunderland for Gyan we'd be in the top 4 now
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 04:11:52 PM
Irrelevant if he's misusing the strikers he does have at his disposal though isn't it?

Yes, with a Drogba or a Villa we could be sitting 4th but without one we should still be in the top half, and actually looking dangerous in games.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 01, 2010, 04:38:12 PM
Irrelevant if he's misusing the strikers he does have at his disposal though isn't it?

Yes, with a Drogba or a Villa we could be sitting 4th but without one we should still be in the top half, and actually looking dangerous in games.

But how?

If Yakubu and Saha are finished its really that simple, no amount of man management can bring something dead back to life.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Silas on December 01, 2010, 04:42:59 PM
The striker thing is a good point.  I had high hopes for Yakubu this year but if he doesn,t get back to what he was we simply don,t have the class up front.  With a shot shy midfield it is a wonder we are scoring at all.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 01, 2010, 04:54:07 PM
Irrelevant if he's misusing the strikers he does have at his disposal though isn't it?

Yes, with a Drogba or a Villa we could be sitting 4th but without one we should still be in the top half, and actually looking dangerous in games.

why is it irrelevant that our strikers are not playing well ? As bad as the RS are playing Torres has hit a little bit of form , grabbed a few goals fron nothing and won games that they should never have got anything out of , thats why great strikers cost vast amounts of money , If you can pluck one out of the air for nothing like Saha , it's prudent to give him time on the pitch to hope he regains that form , If Moyes had not have tried to get him back up to pace it would just have given the wingeing crew something different to try to discredit him
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Sprooly on December 01, 2010, 04:58:26 PM
yak was coming good then got dropped for the bolton arsenal and sunderland games which was the worst thing imo, im still willing to give him time as he has been very good in some games this season

i think saturday really summed up our season imo, dominated early west brom score on there first venture forward then the game comes more even but then brunt scores a great free kick (which if that had of been baines we would be been calling world class instead of bagging the keeper)

then we a get goal back and should of really been 2-2 when all heitinga had to do was touch the ball,

what happens 2nd half? we create chance after chance (which mostly fell to becks) waste them and west brom score with basically there only 2 shots at goal


i think atm we are in a bad spell of luck and we need to be able to be good enough to change that around
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 05:11:19 PM
So Yakubu wasn't playing well against the likes of Fulham, Birmingham, Stoke and Liverpool?

To my eyes he was man of the match in at least two of those games and scored in another one. Then, after one average game against Blackpool he was unceremoniously dropped for a French fanny who hasn't done a jot since February, and hasn't looked close to scoring.

To me, it's really simple. Yakubu is the type of player who needs a run of games to get going (remember when he first joined the club?), he eventually got those games as opposed to last season where he could only get substitute appearances. If Moyes would've stuck with Yakubu after that then I'm sure the goals were coming, as were many others I do believe.

Okay, so you don't want to play Yakubu. The very game after Beckford pulled him out of the shit against Bolton he was dropped for Saha, too.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 05:20:13 PM
Y'know, these threads only go to support the theory that Yakubu was indeed playing well before being dropped.

http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,8118.0.html (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,8118.0.html)

http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,8122.0.html (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,8122.0.html)

http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,7887.0.html (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,7887.0.html)

http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,7879.0.html (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,7879.0.html)

http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,7633.0.html (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,7633.0.html)

http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,7517.15.html (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,7517.15.html)
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Sprooly on December 01, 2010, 05:23:19 PM
So Yakubu wasn't playing well against the likes of Fulham, Birmingham, Stoke and Liverpool?

To my eyes he was man of the match in at least two of those games and scored in another one. Then, after one average game against Blackpool he was unceremoniously dropped for a French fanny who hasn't done a jot since February, and hasn't looked close to scoring.

To me, it's really simple. Yakubu is the type of player who needs a run of games to get going (remember when he first joined the club?), he eventually got those games as opposed to last season where he could only get substitute appearances. If Moyes would've stuck with Yakubu after that then I'm sure the goals were coming, as were many others I do believe.

Okay, so you don't want to play Yakubu. The very game after Beckford pulled him out of the shit against Bolton he was dropped for Saha, too.

Yakubu was BRILLIANT againest fulham he tore Hangeland (who is a very good defender) a new one by his sheer strength and footballing ability and apart from Schwarzer having a good game and one going just wide he could of had a hattrick
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 01, 2010, 05:27:59 PM
So Yakubu wasn't playing well against the likes of Fulham, Birmingham, Stoke and Liverpool?

To my eyes he was man of the match in at least two of those games and scored in another one. Then, after one average game against Blackpool he was unceremoniously dropped for a French fanny who hasn't done a jot since February, and hasn't looked close to scoring.

To me, it's really simple. Yakubu is the type of player who needs a run of games to get going (remember when he first joined the club?), he eventually got those games as opposed to last season where he could only get substitute appearances. If Moyes would've stuck with Yakubu after that then I'm sure the goals were coming, as were many others I do believe.

Okay, so you don't want to play Yakubu. The very game after Beckford pulled him out of the shit against Bolton he was dropped for Saha, too.

Yet again , you can't accept that Moyes sees these players every day in training and up until the WBA game he used Saha , based on what has gone on at Finch Farm , you have not got a clue what has happened during these training sessions
 .. dont you think you're shooting yourself in the foot with Beckford ? Off the top of my head I can think of 5 easy chances he's missed in the last 2 games but it suits you to forget them , chances that have cost us points . I think Beckford will come good eventually but putting him in from the start of games when he's clearly not ready is totally counterproductive
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: .Rimbo. on December 01, 2010, 05:31:32 PM
Yet again , you can't accept that Moyes sees these players every day in training and up until the WBA game he used Saha , based on what has gone on at Finch Farm , you have not got a clue what has happened during these training sessions
 .. dont you think you're shooting yourself in the foot with Beckford ? Off the top of my head I can think of 5 easy chances he's missed in the last 2 games but it suits you to forget them , chances that have cost us points . I think Beckford will come good eventually but putting him in from the start of games when he's clearly not ready is totally counterproductive

Mate, I just don't buy into this 'he sees them every day in training' shite. If Moyes was seeing Saha play amazing in training every week (which I highly, highly doubt he is), if he consistently failed to show up in 6 months of matches he should be dropped regardless. It's just a mute point, no I don't see what goes on in training and neither do you. What we both do we see is abject performance after abject performance on the pitch by Saha, and that's all we have to go off. As I've said, if he was constantly showing up in training and not on the pitch then he doesn't warrant a start. It's that simple, you're going to ridiculous lengths to vindicate Moyes' selection of Saha again.

And isn't it counterproductive to replace him the following game for a finished Saha when it's going to do no good for the lad's confidence? Okay, he's missed five chances but he still has faith in his own ability and all it needs is one or two to go in and I believe that we would start to see a fair few from the lad. However, that's just opinion. What isn't opinion is that we look more dangerous with either Yakubu or Beckford on the field than we do with Saha there.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 01, 2010, 05:45:01 PM
Mate, I just don't buy into this 'he sees them every day in training' shite. If Moyes was seeing Saha play amazing in training every week (which I highly, highly doubt he is), if he consistently failed to show up in 6 months of matches he should be dropped regardless. It's just a mute point, no I don't see what goes on in training and neither do you. What we both do we see is abject performance after abject performance on the pitch by Saha, and that's all we have to go off. As I've said, if he was constantly showing up in training and not on the pitch then he doesn't warrant a start. It's that simple, you're going to ridiculous lengths to vindicate Moyes' selection of Saha again.

And isn't it counterproductive to replace him the following game for a finished Saha when it's going to do no good for the lad's confidence? Okay, he's missed five chances but he still has faith in his own ability and all it needs is one or two to go in and I believe that we would start to see a fair few from the lad. However, that's just opinion. What isn't opinion is that we look more dangerous with either Yakubu or Beckford on the field than we do with Saha there.

We can argue all day long which is the best option .. it won't make any difference , against WBA , all 3 played and they were all shite which brings me back to my original point that the problems lies far more with Kenwright's lack of ability to provide any meamingful funds than it does by Moyes's choice of non scoring forward
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 01, 2010, 09:42:27 PM
So Moyes has signed 2 strikers with proven strike records in the Premier League and can't get them to score for Everton anymore

He's taken a punt on a striker known for his goalscoring further down the leagues in a bid to replace them and it's failed

Moyes is playing Saha ahead of Yakubu because the Yak wanted to leave in the summer and did all he could to secure a move which in the end didn't happen.  Yak is the better of the two, and everything except "possibly" what goes on behind closed doors has shown this.

Moyes is once again being stubborn and picking a player over another because of non-footballing reasons.  THIS is his major downfall for me.  He needs to realise that winning games is much more important than his own ego and pick Yakubu.

David Moyes simply can not work with anyone with a superstar personality, a player who needs to be indulged to get the best out of, or a player who needs "loving" - it's not in his repertoire, and after 10 years in management you have to say that it probably never will be.  He's not that kind of man.  And he doesn't seem to employ coaches or staff who are capable of it either.

Steve Round is a mini-me for Moyes and that seems to be why he got the job.  Moyes needs a direct opposite to his own personality in training for it to work.  There needs to be a "good cop" at Finch Farm somewhere to counter-balance Moyes' "bad cop" act.

I can agree with this to a point .... Moyes is definitely not the " arm around the shoulder " type of manager , he does expect his players to be as dedicated as he is . Is this a weakness ? It does limit him in the range of players who he's going to get the best out of , the counter argument being that if the club is prepared to pay these " kids " vast amounts of money then he should not have to encourage them to earn it .
Players do have a temporary loss of form , or they don't display the attitude that is expected not just by the manager but the fans as well , not just our players , for example SAF has had problems throughout his 24 years at Utd but he's had the option of just shipping out players of the ilk of Beckham , Stam , Keane , Van Nistelroy and his recent spat with Rooney is a case in point . I actually think Moyes would have got a great stint out of Bellamy because their attitudes to the game are somewhat similar and I also think thats why him and Cahill are so mutually beneficial and why he sticks with Neville so much ... Good or Bad ? Is it to much to expect kids who are being made millionaires to have the right attitude ? I stand on Moyes's side of the fence , but then I can understand that some players do need handling differently and Moyes does not have this quality in his repetoire , but that doesn't make him a bad manager , Pricks like Heitinga enfuriate me so much , it's also why I always have a soft spot for Hibbo and Ossie , not the greatest of players but you know that both of them go on that pitch giving 110% at least , often thats not enough but you can bet your Arse that they are as unhappy about a bad performance as we all are ..
He gave a lot of leeway to one player , one who could have become a legend if he'd shown his true ability for any length of time , VDM , The way that arsehole fleeced the club could have really affected his attitude , Possibly the biggest let down for me in any player in the last 10 years and I suspect the same for Moyes .
Do I think Moyes will change ? No , Do I think he should ? No .... but maybe Si is right that he could use a different assistant ... Alan Irvine maybe ?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Silas on December 01, 2010, 10:43:18 PM
I would say the difference between Moyes and Ferguson is experience and age tbh.  Moyes is still a rookie.  Not in the Everton job but in Premier league management stakes he is.  Moyes isn't an uber Manager by any stretch and it is yet to be seen whether he can steer this team with it's meagre resources to anything beyond what he has. 
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Haile GAZrselassie on December 01, 2010, 11:32:25 PM
Alan Irvine is just as dour and miserable as Moyes though

We missed a trick by never employing Bobby Robson to help Moyes.  Universally loved (except for Shearer and Bellamy) and a real people's person, someone who would make players feel important and loved.  We need someone like him.

Van der Meyde?  In the last two years of his deal he told anyone who would listen that he was fit and was making himself available to the manager.  He wasn't picked, despite us having no solution down the right side of the pitch.  Giving him too much leeway?  Doesn't sound like it to me.  Could VDM's body have handled being picked on a regular basis?  Who knows, he never got the chance to break down in the last two years of his time at Everton, while his daughter was seriously ill in hospital.  But he made himself available, according to him.

As for Bellamy, wasn't there a story about him not signing for us because of Moyes?  Something along the lines of Moyes only wanting to talk about his achievements at Everton?

The difference between Ferguson and Moyes is that he got the best out of those players and sold them on at a massive profit.  Moyes just refuses to pick players and runs down their contracts.

Moyes needs his players to be world beaters AND dedicated, which very rarely happens.  So, he can either work with dedicated players who aren't good enough to win things, or world beaters who need a bit of tolerance every now and then.  Sadly he'll plump for the first one every single time.

Was this ever on the cards? I seem to remember it being mooted at one point and if it was ever truly an option someone somewhwre has dropped an almighty bollock not mkaing use of Sir Bobby's experience.

He could have taught Moyes an unbeleivable amount about man management and being able to massage big players ego's to enable him to get the best from them.

VDM should have been given more of a run in the side during those last 6 months imo. he was clearly fit but Moyes would never be big enough to swallow his pride or let bygones be bygones in order for us to use an unquestionably talented player. The problem he had with VDM imo was that he wasn't wliing to run about like a dick'ed for 90 minutes chasing lost causes. Good players dont do that as they know it ultimately gets them nowhere and when the time comes to chase down a stray backpass or something they're too fucked to do so. It's about using your brain.

He's a very, very good manager. But he has a long way to go till he becomes an excellent one.

Id love to see him with 50m under his arm for a season or two. Because then we would all find out what he's like given the chance to compete with the likes of Mancini, Ferguson, Ancellotti etc etc and if he doesn't do the business then we can get rid of him knowing once and for all that he doesn't have the nous and talent to be able to achieve good things with big money and that he is after all pretty much a one trick pony.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 02, 2010, 12:07:20 AM
Si . you ain't going to buy worldbeaters with the money made available to Moyes ,
VDM was as slow as fuck when he did get a chance and he hasn't lit the world up since he left us  I can assure you Moyes had good reason not to trust VDM , even when his daughter was ill , I witnessed him firsthand when he was a bit " tired and emotional " nice guy  but this guy was taking 25k + a week off the club to do this ... Sorry him telling people he was fit and being good enough to play for a good Premier League team on a regular basis doesn't hold water and you can hardly blame Moyes for that , maybe it's my age but prima donna the attitudes of some players really piss me off , Even going back to the 80's our players liked to socialise , some to extreme but they always put a shift in where it mattered , Some of the gobshites now measure their ability by the size of their mansion , a Prem players phallic symbol ? Don't forget , its us who pay their obscene wages , expecting them to earn them is not too much to ask and just because some off them are a little bit sensitive and spit the dummy out because the boss doesn't massage their inflated egos doesn't really wash with me

Alan Irvine comes across as dour and miserable in his TV interviews , He was Moyes's go between before he left , the man between himself and the players , who was a very popular figure , Steve Round is exactly as you described him .. Mini Moyes .. I don't think he'd be missed if he went , As much as I dislike the idea of having to kiss the arse of some namby pamby crybaby millionaire , I have to concede that sometimes its neccesary , I also have to concede that Moyes or Mini Moyes can't do that job .. I'd like to think that when Round goes his replacement is recruited with this in mind
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 02, 2010, 12:43:50 AM
It's all very well saying "they earn millions why do they need their egos massaging" but it's just a fact of modern-day football

It's wrong but that's the way of the world and if you don't play the game you don't win

Moyes almost got it right with Ferguson, by making him captain, but then the captain wanted the voice of a captain and they fell out...

He is just too stubborn to work with these players and if he can't work with them he will always be putting teams out against them, and ultimately, they'll beat him.

I know it's a fact of modern day football , can't get away from that and I find it sad . I find it sad that a great guy who you know well felt he had to set up the Former Players association because there were heroes to many who were in serious ill health or financial difficulty and in one extreme case , Warren Aspinall , attempted to end his life whereas now a 19 yr old kid can be driving around in a car that cost as much as my house . It is a fact of modern day football but I can't blame Moyes for not buying into that , don't forget as a player he chose to leave Celtic and took a step down in order to play football , whilst studying for his coaching badges from when he was 22 yrs old .He doesn't have to prompt Cahill or Neville to put the effort in on the pitch , happily , Jack Rodwell looks to have the same ethos . Ok , he will never be the " arm around the shoulder " boss ... but then you cannot put the responsibility for that player totally on him .. surely the player has to take some responsibility ?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Confucius on December 02, 2010, 12:45:34 AM
It's all very well saying "they earn millions why do they need their egos massaging" but it's just a fact of modern-day football

It's wrong but that's the way of the world and if you don't play the game you don't win

Moyes almost got it right with Ferguson, by making him captain, but then the captain wanted the voice of a captain and they fell out...

He is just too stubborn to work with these players and if he can't work with them he will always be putting teams out against them, and ultimately, they'll beat him.

There is definitely something happening behind the scenes for us to be doing this badly. Moyes is a wonderful manager but things are getting a little stale now. We need new blood. Man United always got new players etc while keeping the same manager. I can't see a squad overhaul. I can see a manager change though.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 02, 2010, 12:51:01 AM
There is definitely something happening behind the scenes for us to be doing this badly. Moyes is a wonderful manager but things are getting a little stale now. We need new blood. Man United always got new players etc while keeping the same manager. I can't see a squad overhaul. I can see a manager change though.

It'll have to be him who walks though ... Kenwright would never sack him , financially he's worth far too much to the club.. as long as he keeps pulling gems like Seamus out of the hat he's worth his weight in gold , we don't even know what Gueye is like yet but going on rumour he's another little diamond
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Confucius on December 02, 2010, 12:56:06 AM
It'll have to be him who walks though ... Kenwright would never sack him , financially he's worth far too much to the club.. as long as he keeps pulling gems like Seamus out of the hat he's worth his weight in gold , we don't even know what Gueye is like yet but going on rumour he's another little diamond

Unearthing gems is one thing, but has that got more to do with our scouting network than the manager himself. Wouldn't he make more money for the club by winning a trophy or higher league placing, going further in European and cup competitions. I am also not denying what he has done here is amazing but his job ultimately is to get us into Europe and challenging for trophies. He is unfortunately not doing that.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 02, 2010, 01:02:37 AM
Unearthing gems is one thing, but has that got more to do with our scouting network than the manager himself. Wouldn't he make more money for the club by winning a trophy or higher league placing, going further in European and cup competitions. I am also not denying what he has done here is amazing but his job ultimately is to get us into Europe and challenging for trophies. He is unfortunately not doing that.

Nearly £20m profit on Lescott is not a bad return , about 3x more than we earned for getting to the FA Cup final , Unfortunately the only managers who are winning trophies at the moment are SAF , whoever's in charge of Chelsea and Arry , the common denominator is a very large amount of money to spend on  squads that has already cost many millions to assemble
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Confucius on December 02, 2010, 01:07:28 AM
Nearly £20m profit on Lescott is not a bad return , about 3x more than we earned for getting to the FA Cup final , Unfortunately the only managers who are winning trophies at the moment are SAF , whoever's in charge of Chelsea and Arry , the common denominator is a very large amount of money to spend on  squads that has already cost many millions to assemble

Besides Lescott, who have we sold? Vaughan is going to leave for under a million. How much on insurance, coaching, wages, medical bills etc have been pain on him and many others like him. Yes we have made some money in the transfer market but many managers can do that. We want to win things
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Scouse Ruletero on December 02, 2010, 01:11:33 AM
Who signed them?

Who coaches them?

Who tells them what tactics to play?

Why is it that a number of these players suddenly aren't performing?  One or two could be their own attitude problems or lack of form, but the amount in our side that aren't performing would be way too much of a coincidence for it just to be them.

Moyes needs to accept responsibility for players who were good enough for an FA Cup Final and a fifth place finish now looking like they'd be lucky to get in a Championship side

Okay, look at this logically.

Arteta is playing shit. Why? Moyes pushed the boat out and got him to sign a new lucrative contract. Arteta has played for Moyes for 5 years. Why is Arteta suddenly playing shit? Is Moyes really to blame for the loss of one man's form? Do you seriously think the manager has suddenly changed his coaching methods this season?

Heitinga is playing shit. He has played shit for months. He has the unbelievably annoying habit of talking to papers in his own country and linking himself with a move away. He has done this 4 or 5 times in the last 12 months. He wants to play centre half. He's too small to play centre half. Plus he's right footed, and Moyes wants a left footer on the left of Jags. Seems a perfectly reasonable plan from Moyes to me. So Moyes plays him in midfield. Heitinga plays shit and has a titty lip. And this is Moyes fault? Moyes is only guilty of being loyal to the guy. How dare Moyes play the guy!

Louis Saha is playing shit. Moyes got him to sign a lucrative new contract in February. Saha has done f*** all since. In what universe is this possibly Moyes' fault, given that Moyes has been loyal to him?

Tim Howard has made several notable mistakes. Moyes has resisted the urge to drop him in favour of Mucha. Howard has repaid him with seemingly one costly error every 5 games.

Are there any more culprits I've left out?

If you'd read my post properly, you'd have noticed I wrote 'Sure, Moyes tactics are poor at times, as are his tactical changes.'

But why is Moyes to blame for the loss of form of the majority of the same players who, as you say, finished 5th and reached a Cup Final not too long ago? Unless you are privvy to what goes on in the dressing room and Finch Farm, on the surface, it is the players blatantly letting Moyes down, and not the other way around. If you honestly think Moyes doesn't take the situation we're in seriously, or that he isn't taking responsibility for the situation that we're in, then you don't seem to have learned anything from the many things we've learnt about Moyes over the past 8 years. Let's not demonise Moyes like certain people did with Royle in early 1997, eh?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Confucius on December 02, 2010, 01:18:12 AM
Okay, look at this logically.

Arteta is playing shit. Why? Moyes pushed the boat out and got him to sign a new lucrative contract. Arteta has played for Moyes for 5 years. Why is Arteta suddenly playing shit? Is Moyes really to blame for the loss of one man's form? Do you seriously think the manager has suddenly changed his coaching methods this season?

Heitinga is playing shit. He has played shit for months. He has the unbelievably annoying habit of talking to papers in his own country and linking himself with a move away. He has done this 4 or 5 times in the last 12 months. He wants to play centre half. He's too small to play centre half. Plus he's right footed, and Moyes wants a left footer on the left of Jags. Seems a perfectly reasonable plan from Moyes to me. So Moyes plays him in midfield. Heitinga plays shit and has a titty lip. And this is Moyes fault? Moyes is only guilty of being loyal to the guy. How dare Moyes play the guy!

Louis Saha is playing shit. Moyes got him to sign a lucrative new contract in February. Saha has done f*** all since. In what universe is this possibly Moyes' fault, given that Moyes has been loyal to him?

Tim Howard has made several notable mistakes. Moyes has resisted the urge to drop him in favour of Mucha. Howard has repaid him with seemingly one costly error every 5 games.

Are there any more culprits I've left out?

If you'd read my post properly, you'd have noticed I wrote 'Sure, Moyes tactics are poor at times, as are his tactical changes.'

But why is Moyes to blame for the loss of form of the majority of the same players who, as you say, finished 5th and reached a Cup Final not too long ago? Unless you are privvy to what goes on in the dressing room and Finch Farm, on the surface, it is the players blatantly letting Moyes down, and not the other way around. If you honestly think Moyes doesn't take the situation we're in seriously, or that he isn't taking responsibility for the situation that we're in, then you don't seem to have learned anything from the many things we've learnt about Moyes over the past 8 years. Let's not demonise Moyes like certain people did with Royle in early 1997, eh?

What you forget to mention is that it is the managers job to drop players who are not performing for those who are. By your own admission he is playing players out of position(and expecting them to succeed) and playing out of form players just because they have been around for a long time or on big money contracts. Part of being a manager is making the tough decisions. Moyes is definitely not making them but hoping things fix themselves.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Scouse Ruletero on December 02, 2010, 01:20:21 AM
From what you're saying, those players are playing shit despite Moyes being loyal to them.  Seems like they've got no respect for him if that's the case.

How has he lost their respect if all he's done is be the perfect boyfriend, I mean manager, to them all?

2003/2004.
August 2005 to January 2006.
August 2008 to October 2008.

Players play shit and let their managers down from time to time.
It happens. Thankfully history has shown we haven't sacked Moyes every time the players let him down.

The things that Moyes needs to do can't actually be done until next month, and even then it may not be entirely in his hands.

A quicker way of things turning around can be found by looking at the players.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Scouse Ruletero on December 02, 2010, 01:23:07 AM
What you forget to mention is that it is the managers job to drop players who are not performing for those who are. By your own admission he is playing players out of position(and expecting them to succeed) and playing out of form players just because they have been around for a long time or on big money contracts. Part of being a manager is making the tough decisions. Moyes is definitely not making them but hoping things fix themselves.

I agree with that.

I've said all along in other threads that Heitinga, Saha and Arteta should be dropped, and that Coleman, Rodwell and Beckford should be given runs in the side.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: arteta4spain on December 02, 2010, 01:35:59 AM
Is it possible that Moyes has lost the dressing room? Having seen our performances and players playing out of position and being shite, have they lost faith in him?
The team has looked dishevelled all season. other players seeing out of form players getting picked week in week out. Think it will have pissed them off and might have spilled out into the dressing room with them airing their feelings? This is just a thought but who knows?   
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: arteta4spain on December 02, 2010, 01:42:23 AM
If's but's and maybe's innit! We'll never know, maybe if heitinga/pienaar leaves in jan there might be some lifting of lids so to speak? It just baffles me due to last seasons form and this? as you say si its possible that "why should i try if they arent?" so in that essence Moyes would have lost the dressing room! 
Thanks for the password reset by the way  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 02, 2010, 01:54:50 AM
What you forget to mention is that it is the managers job to drop players who are not performing for those who are. By your own admission he is playing players out of position(and expecting them to succeed) and playing out of form players just because they have been around for a long time or on big money contracts. Part of being a manager is making the tough decisions. Moyes is definitely not making them but hoping things fix themselves.

I agree but seeing as only about 4 of our players are performing as they should then he has to make difficult decisions , he is making those decisions but its only really with hindsight that they may be deemed as wrong ones . Our season really has swung on our inability to score enough goals .. not helped by our 3 main strikers scoring 2 goals between them , as much as it doesn't fit the "we're doomed " argument we have dominated most games we've played in this season , this is despite key players not contributing what is expected , Arteta , Jags , Fucking Heitinga , our main culprits so I have no doubt we can turn this around ... we were playing far worse this time last season , we managed to recover our form before Jags and Mikel returned from injury . I'm hoping that Fellaini and Donovan can add the spark that can charge the team up , another 2 class players who don't need to be pandered to in order to perform ... Yes ultimately It's down to Moyes but none of the players he's picked to play this season are really bad players , the teams he's picked have all been capable of beating whats in front of them and as far as I'm concerned they have let themselves , the club , the manager and the fans down
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Father Mcnulty on December 02, 2010, 02:56:38 AM
Would Everton still be in the Premiership had Moyes not taken over? My guess is yes.
Would we have qualified for Europe with another manager? Why not?
Would we still have a good set of players? Again I say yes.

Too much credit is given to a man who has done what his contract stated he must do. If he goes, so what. If he stays, so what. Just start rediscovering what made you popular in the first place you negative clueless disappointing cry baby of a manager.

Everton is a club, and has been one of the biggest names in English football since football began. If you want to stay as manager, then pull your socks up. Many are eager to do the job if you don't want it. Just don't think you are doing a good enough job at the moment, because you are not.

I can't remember the last time I was at the edge of my seat, with nails bitten and heart pumping. I miss that about Everton. Get it back or piss off back to the Championship.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Silas on December 02, 2010, 03:00:51 AM
Would Everton still be in the Premiership had Moyes not taken over? My guess is yes.
Would we have qualified for Europe with another manager? Why not?
Would we still have a good set of players? Again I say yes.

Too much credit is given to a man who has done what his contract stated he must do. If he goes, so what. If he stays, so what. Just start rediscovering what made you popular in the first place you negative clueless disappointing cry baby of a manager.

Everton is a club, and has been one of the biggest names in English football since football began. If you want to stay as manager, then pull your socks up. Many are eager to do the job if you don't want it. Just don't think you are doing a good enough job at the moment, because you are not.

I can't remember the last time I was at the edge of my seat, with nails bitten and heart pumping. I miss that about Everton. Get it back or piss off back to the Championship.  :thumbsup:

You have no idea whether we would have done any of the things Moyes has.  Someone else might have done better but then we could have had another Mike Walker.  Moyes needs to turn things around but give him some credit for assembling what on paper was considered by all of us a great squad. 

With the same funds as Moyes are the odds high another Manager would have done better up this point?  No they are not.  Whether Moyes has come to the end of his road is a reasonable question but for me, what he has done for the club isn't questionable.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 02, 2010, 03:09:09 AM
Only time will tell , it's grossly unfair to lay all the blame at Moyes's door , he's probably worked harder than anyone to re establish our club . I've no doubt that he's aware of his responsibilities . I've also no doubt that he's sure enough in his own ability to turn us around .... because when the day arrives that he thinks he can do no more , he will be honest and open enough to admit it and walk away
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Father Mcnulty on December 02, 2010, 03:09:12 AM
You have no idea whether we would have done any of the things Moyes has.  Someone else might have done better but then we could have had another Mike Walker.  Moyes needs to turn things around but give him some credit for assembling what on paper was considered by all of us a great squad. 

With the same funds as Moyes are the odds high another Manager would have done better up this point?  No they are not.  Whether Moyes has come to the end of his road is a reasonable question but for me, what he has done for the club isn't questionable.

What has he won mate?

Europa qualification from 5th to 7th place.
European championship qualification once in 8 years only to be destroyed at the first hurdle.

I think it's important to remember this. The guy has done a decent job, and fair play to him, but we are in our biggest trophy drought in our history. Is he not responsible for the negatives as well as the positives?

Just like any player, he gets applauded when he succeeds and dropped when he fails. If Moyes were a player he'd be in the reserves at the moment.

That is the brutal truth. We all like him, but he isn't doing a good job. Anyone who says he is needs help.

Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 02, 2010, 03:25:49 AM
What has he won mate?

Europa qualification from 5th to 7th place.
European championship qualification once in 8 years only to be destroyed at the first hurdle.

I think it's important to remember this. The guy has done a decent job, and fair play to him, but we are in our biggest trophy drought in our history. Is he not responsible for the negatives as well as the positives?

Just like any player, he gets applauded when he succeeds and dropped when he fails. If Moyes were a player he'd be in the reserves at the moment.

That is the brutal truth. We all like him, but he isn't doing a good job. Anyone who says he is needs help.


#

Bollocks , he's never in nearly 9 years been given a fraction of the funds that the perennial trophy winners have had at their disposal plus many teams that have never been above us during his tenure ... Not forgetting the squad he took over was shite wheras his contemporaries have just had to add to squads that are previous multi trophy winners ...

If any manager could do what Moyes has done with little or no money why haven't they ? The clown fromacross the park before Woy was given a CL winning team .. £150m to spend and he still fucked it up . Money has been no object for Citteh for a few years now and they've won ...... zilch , got to a semi final and a 5th place , Arsenal havent won a trophy for 5 years despite being told by the media that Wenger is the best thing since sliced bread ...

Get real it's not those of us who see his positive talents who need help
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: Father Mcnulty on December 02, 2010, 03:39:37 AM
#

Bollocks , he's never in nearly 9 years been given a fraction of the funds that the perennial trophy winners have had at their disposal plus many teams that have never been above us during his tenure ... Not forgetting the squad he took over was shite wheras his contemporaries have just had to add to squads that are previous multi trophy winners ...

If any manager could do what Moyes has done with little or no money why haven't they ? The clown fromacross the park before Woy was given a CL winning team .. 150m to spend and he still fucked it up . Money has been no object for Citteh for a few years now and they've won ...... zilch , got to a semi final and a 5th place , Arsenal havent won a trophy for 5 years despite being told by the media that Wenger is the best thing since sliced bread ...

Get real it's not those of us who see his positive talents who need help

If I win salesman of the year 5 years runing, I will no doubt gain a reputation of being the best there is. If, for the following years I do nothing in particular, then my performances have obviously not been of the same standard.

Moyes bought great players on the cheap ( as well as a few flops if we're honest).
He took us to Wembley.
He took us to Europe.

Basically, he brought Everton back up to the standards we expect, but for the past few seasons he has been taking us back to where we were before we hired him.

We can't allow Everton to have a slump like we had in the days before Moyes.

We have 2 choices. 1: Moyes raises his game and we remain competetive. 2: Moyes doesn't, we become mediocre, and he gets sacked.

We're not Moyes fans. We're Everton fans. We just happen to embrace all those associated with our club. There has to be a line drawn though on when the time comes to move on. Moyes is close to that line now.
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: nomorechang on December 02, 2010, 05:38:20 AM
If I win salesman of the year 5 years runing, I will no doubt gain a reputation of being the best there is. If, for the following years I do nothing in particular, then my performances have obviously not been of the same standard.

Moyes bought great players on the cheap ( as well as a few flops if we're honest).
He took us to Wembley.
He took us to Europe.

Basically, he brought Everton back up to the standards we expect, but for the past few seasons he has been taking us back to where we were before we hired him.

We can't allow Everton to have a slump like we had in the days before Moyes.

We have 2 choices. 1: Moyes raises his game and we remain competetive. 2: Moyes doesn't, we become mediocre, and he gets sacked.

We're not Moyes fans. We're Everton fans. We just happen to embrace all those associated with our club. There has to be a line drawn though on when the time comes to move on. Moyes is close to that line now.

Choice 3

Kenwright finally realises that the only way the club can now compete with teams we used to brush aside is to find a way he can supply funds ... As he has not got the cash himself then he sells the club for a reasonable amount , not the extortionate amount it's rumoured to be up for grabs for . Personally I don't think Moyes will even need the " silly money " that City/Utd/Chelsea have spent to put us back on track .

Incidentally if your car salesman after so many years is still being forced to sell the same product whilst his rivals have brand new shiney updated models in stock and yet he still outperforms some of them despite having to put all the blood sweat and tears in himself and his rivals showrooms are all updated with fantastic facilities and yet his boss' dogsbody makes a video to show the world that his showroom is falling down around his feet and his only answer is to try to build a new shed , miles out of town where nobody wants to go and is extremely difficult to get to , in fact its so badly planned and designed the government laughs at them and puts the blocks on it . Wouldn't you want to give him a medal , not hound him out ?
Title: Re: Blarg summed it up for me
Post by: bloody scally on December 02, 2010, 06:31:03 AM
Kenwright finally realises that the only way the club can now compete with teams we used to brush aside is to find a way he can supply funds ... As he has not got the cash himself then he sells the club for a reasonable amount , not the extortionate amount it's rumoured to be up for grabs for .

 :badum: