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NSNO Forums => The Everton Forum => Topic started by: maccanacca on April 15, 2017, 12:27:53 AM

Title: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: maccanacca on April 15, 2017, 12:27:53 AM
who's arsed?

The Sun send freelancers to Anfield to write their match reports, and watch the press conferences live on Youtube anyway for comments

they'd do the same at Everton

they don't get player interviews at Everton, they don't get anything "exclusive" so the only thing it would achieve would be making people think about The Sun again, the same as McKenzie's comments about Barkley and people on comparable wages in the city being drug dealers - it was to get people in Liverpool talking about The Sun, and it worked.

nobody north of Watford buys the piece of shit rag anyway
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Silas on April 15, 2017, 12:49:45 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing it but I don't think it matters massively at this stage either. It would be nice because a filthy fucking shitrag but it mattered more years ago when both clubs didn't come out and ban it. Doesn't mean it shouldn't still happen but the furore over it lately is somewhat random.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: maccanacca on April 15, 2017, 12:51:10 AM
took the shite 27 years to ban it as well

can they really complain if it takes us that long to copy them?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Paddockoldie on April 15, 2017, 01:15:11 AM
I'm surprised it's not banned throughout the City. I live in Mancunia and was offered a free one at the petrol station... he heard my accent and did a "Oh..." as he took it back. I said I wouldn't wipe my arse on it mate.. he just nodded. We left it there.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Robioto on April 15, 2017, 01:19:24 AM
The Sun should be banned across the whole county, in fact all newspapers should be, the lie ridden, scare mongering pieces of shite.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: BlueBeagle on April 15, 2017, 01:23:00 AM
took the shite 27 years to ban it as well

can they really complain if it takes us that long to copy them?

Fucking laughable isn't it.

Cabbies parked outside Goodison "protesting" over it and Joe Anderson spouting off how he's "ashamed to be an Evertonian".

If Liverpool and Everton had banned it from day dot then sound. For them to do it over a quarter of a century later and for people make out it's a huge deal that we haven't done the same is just farcical.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Trowel on April 15, 2017, 01:40:23 AM
The reason for the delay was explained here - basically the sport desk used to be independent of the news desk, and were very much on the club's side.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sn-liverpool-took-28-years-12587844
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: BlueBeagle on April 15, 2017, 01:49:43 AM
The reason for the delay was explained here - basically the sport desk used to be independent of the news desk, and were very much on the club's side.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sn-liverpool-took-28-years-12587844

Seems a bit of a weak reason.

Different departments or not, they are still part of the same entity.

The News and Sport are still seperate, as they were back then, but they've now banned it totally. What's changed?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bally on April 15, 2017, 01:50:06 AM
So glad I'm not the only one to think the same way as the majority of this thread up to yet
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: 74Blue on April 15, 2017, 02:04:47 AM
I think the club could release something along the lines of "we are aware of our neighbours recently banning one of the national newspapers. Having given some thought to the matter, we have decided that as the newspaper in question is so insignificant in our home city anyway, we are not even going to give them the satisfaction of being banned from our club too. We believe in equality and even buffoons need a comic to read. The target audience of the national in question barely have the brains that they were born with anyway, so would likely struggle with words of a.single syllable. This is Everton Football Club and we couldn't give a flying fuck about this particular shitty rag and the clowns who write the drivel in it!"
A full statement there and didn't mention The S*n once! That's the way to piss the cunts off.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Macca77 on April 15, 2017, 02:19:01 AM
Pretty pointless banning a paper than no cunt buys anyway or am I missing the bigger picture here as usual
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ridge on April 15, 2017, 02:33:39 AM
They were the ones who published Barkley CCTV, they've given a platform to the turgid mind of McKenzie to make the comments. They've earned plenty of money off the Barkley incident, there's been no concern for Barkley in their coverage and McKenzie's comments make it very difficult not to react in some way. But in truth, there's not a lot the club can effect in this situation.

I think these bans are often a bit counter productive in that they tend to give publicity and banning sports reporters doesn't effect the opinion piece section of McKenzie, Morgan, Hopkins etc. You won't stop them covering you, you're just guaranteeing the sports reporters do so in a negative light from a distance.

But given that these comments tread dangerously close to areas where people are looking to set new guidelines in media. Sounds like he's been suspended, but still think this could end them up in plenty of trouble.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Silas on April 15, 2017, 03:13:58 AM
Disappointed in the reaction of a lot of fan's towards Everton on this. Joe Anderson whipping up a storm and the fact is Everton are probably calmly considering their options. It doesn't help.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Audrey Horne on April 15, 2017, 03:14:40 AM
Disappointed in the reaction of a lot of fan's towards Everton on this. Joe Anderson whipping up a storm and the fact is Everton are probably calmly considering their options. It doesn't help.


ANderson is a knob isnt he...
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Silas on April 15, 2017, 03:15:37 AM

ANderson is a knob isnt he...

Yeah he's a massive attention seeker, he might be good for us in terms of the stadium but Evertonian or not, he's a tit.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Macca77 on April 15, 2017, 03:20:49 AM
I do wish Anderson would just fuck off, he tweeted earlier saying something like how can we show respect to the 96 when we allow the paper the smeared the victims into the stadium
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Silas on April 15, 2017, 03:27:56 AM
Yeah I've called him out on it but the wagon is rolling now.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Mayor Farnum on April 15, 2017, 03:34:36 AM
There's a bigger issue here. Are we going to let fuckin cabbies tell us what to do?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: BlueBeagle on April 15, 2017, 03:35:31 AM
There's a bigger issue here. Are we going to let fuckin cabbies tell us what to do?

lolol lolol lolol
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Gash on April 15, 2017, 03:39:10 AM
All seems a bit 'shutting the gate after the horse has bolted', the cynic in me thinks it's just another way of keeping Hillsborough in the news. Sorry if that sounds harsh but we've stood by them on this right from the start but we shouldn't be forced to do something just because they have and everyone gets outraged if we don't.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bally on April 15, 2017, 03:51:38 AM
You know what I wasn't going to really make this public but I spoke to they guy who runs the campaign a few weeks ago when we were giving out the Alex Young fanzine.
This conversation took place after a heated conversation with some shouty guy who was with Dave Kelly, anyone who witnessed this could testify to my reaction when he tried to suggest the fans forum seemed to be OK with the #shitrag allowed at the ground.
Luckily I'm who I am and can look after myself but he could have been interpreted as threatening, he wasn't he was just trying to vehemently defend his corner, which is fine, but do not attack when you do not have all the facts. I told him the same as I told the organisers of the #ShunTheSun or total eclipse whatever they're called, I'm not arsed, I though it had happened years ago, I actually don't care a fuck about that #Shitrag and they are giving it publicity they don't need to give, the organiser said and I quote "I reckon we can kill the paper, I'm happy to give it publicity if we can rid it". Now I really can't get on board with that mentality, especially when his own club took more than a quarter century to bin it, I left wishing him well and all the luck in the world, but he needs to watch who are associated with him, some may see an aggressive approach in a bad light.

There is loads more that went on but I shall not divulge, I was heading towards my daughter and that put all my other thoughts into perspective.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Jamokachi on April 15, 2017, 03:57:17 AM
You know what I wasn't going to really make this public but I spoke to they guy who runs the campaign a few weeks ago when we were giving out the Alex Young fanzine.
This conversation took place after a heated conversation with some shouty guy who was with Dave Kelly, anyone who witnessed this could testify to my reaction when he tried to suggest the fans forum seemed to be OK with the #shitrag allowed at the ground.
Luckily I'm who I am and can look after myself but he could have been interpreted as threatening, he wasn't he was just trying to vehemently defend his corner, which is fine, but do not attack when you do not have all the facts. I told him the same as I told the organisers of the #ShunTheSun or total eclipse whatever they're called, I'm not arsed, I though it had happened years ago, I actually don't care a fuck about that #Shitrag and they are giving it publicity they don't need to give, the organiser said and I quote "I reckon we can kill the paper, I'm happy to give it publicity if we can rid it". Now I really can't get on board with that mentality, especially when his own club took more than a quarter century to bin it, I left wishing him well and all the luck in the world, but he needs to watch who are associated with him, some may see an aggressive approach in a bad light.

There is loads more that went on but I shall not divulge, I was heading towards my daughter and that put all my other thoughts into perspective.

The sun sells millions of copies a week, and hasn't been bought in Liverpool for 25 years. No way on earth is their campaign going to "kill" it, sadly.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Gash on April 15, 2017, 04:00:20 AM
There's always people who seem hell bent on having a dig at the club about something. It's almost like now that things are going pretty well and heading in a good direction that this is just another stick to beat the club with.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: burkey17 on April 15, 2017, 04:03:07 AM
I am blue through and through and I have not bought the Sun in my life and very rarely these days buy a paper. If I do it's the Mirror and the Mail on a Saturday (sorry!) excellent tele guide for the week! But my opinion is that if you don't have an opinion well whatever......
So I think....

From a smack in a bar which I think he was not 'totally innocent ' in that there were words and Barkley touching his chin... so maybe somethings gone one?and as allegedly the perpetrator got a 'a good kicking' so obviously I don't think there will be any 'charges' I doubt?!
Anyway apart from that this is what such bog roll is read everyday- maybe 8 million?! Anyway I was very surprised if I do not congratulate Lineker (not his biggest fan) but fair play. And the rest of the broadsheet press. Horrible reporting.....yeah he might be din at times?! but to bring up his heritage and have the generic chance to take the chance to take the piss out of Scousers and anniversary tomorrow.........F off gutter press! And that t...!


http://www.givemesport.com/1030080-gary-lineker-blasts-kelvin-mackenzie-on-twitter-after-ross-barkley-comments?autoplay=on
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bally on April 15, 2017, 04:04:10 AM
There's always people who seem hell bent on having a dig at the club about something. It's almost like now that things are going pretty well and heading in a good direction that this is just another stick to beat the club with.
Mate I wish you could see every fucking dig certain fan groups throw at the club, I'm astonished /astounded they actually support the club.
I mean it's an actual fucking joke.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Mayor Farnum on April 15, 2017, 04:04:27 AM
The Sun has always been a shit paper and told plenty of lies about plenty of people long before Hillsborough. The fact that it was the biggest selling paper in a working class city is a disgrace.
Maybe itís a bit of guilt about that helping to fuel this push for a ban.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Alfie Noakes on April 15, 2017, 06:26:39 AM
Most people in Liverpool have successfully boycotted the sun for years so I don't understand why anyone should want to ban it.

McKenzie is definitely a horrible man but if I was at Everton I'd publicly invite him to visit the club. It'd be a win-win because whatever the outcome, McKenzie would end up looking a fool.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ross on April 15, 2017, 06:47:37 AM
Bet their website has got plenty of clicks from this.

Job done Kelvin have a few weeks off on paid leave.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Brownie on April 15, 2017, 07:32:04 AM
Bet their website has got plenty of clicks from this.

Job done Kelvin have a few weeks off on paid leave.

And there in lies the problem. KM doesn't give a shit that's he's suspended, he's done his job and the paper gets its moment in the limelight again. And all the mouth breathing, knuckle draggers  who buy it will have their stereotypical views of scousers reinforced.i

As for Joe Anderson, the man needs to show more class and professionalism for the role he holds. If I tweeted like he does about education I would be up on a professional misconduct charge
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: TheRam on April 15, 2017, 03:33:21 PM
I'm not having this at all.

Anyone having a go at the club for not banning the sun needs to fuck off.

What will banning the sun achieve? All you're doing is banning certain journalists by association.

Liverpool did it as a publicity stunt, hence why it took 27 years.

A ban is meaningless. We'll continue the do great work with the community and support the families as we have been doing for years.

A ban is absolute meaningless and we shouldn't be dictated to by a couple of attention seeking Twitter kick off merchants.

Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ell Capitan on April 15, 2017, 03:41:23 PM
Poor behaviour making the club the target of people's anger and attention when it's done nothing wrong.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on April 15, 2017, 03:55:07 PM
Dave Kelly is a wanka. When I was shortlisted on the fans forum and the clubs released our names, he was tweeting us all loads of shit, as if there was some kind of conspiracy against him. Top class bellend.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Tony Clifton on April 15, 2017, 04:39:41 PM
Ashamed to be a blue is he?!   lolol  Joe Anderson has no shame.  Put your pants back on now Joe, I think you've bought a few of "the people's" votes there.   :wanker:
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Brownie on April 15, 2017, 04:41:00 PM
Dave Kelly is a wanka. When I was shortlisted on the fans forum and the clubs released our names, he was tweeting us all loads of shit, as if there was some kind of conspiracy against him. Top class bellend.

Pardon my ignorance but who is Dave Kelly?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Silas on April 15, 2017, 04:44:43 PM
Pardon my ignorance but who is Dave Kelly?

Part of The Blue Union, Keioc etc.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Brownie on April 15, 2017, 04:58:19 PM
Part of The Blue Union, Keioc etc.

Cheers. Thought I'd heard the name before
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Trowel on April 15, 2017, 05:26:46 PM
Done.

https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/853192350927126528
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ross on April 15, 2017, 05:42:27 PM
Well that's going to put a stop to all those Everton articles, match reports, transfer gossip, etc etc

Oh hang on no it won't will it?

Well at least it'll put a stop to them degrading the city and the locals......
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bally on April 15, 2017, 05:59:13 PM
Dave Kelly is a wanka. When I was shortlisted on the fans forum and the clubs released our names, he was tweeting us all loads of shit, as if there was some kind of conspiracy against him. Top class bellend.
When was that man.
Funny he didn't do that to me like.
Dave can be somewhat.... Er forthright with his views, just tell him to fuck off.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bally on April 15, 2017, 05:59:37 PM
Ban announcement due now
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Everton Mint on April 15, 2017, 06:09:02 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9cu3nhXUAA_wqu.jpg)
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: pjk on April 15, 2017, 06:16:28 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9cu3nhXUAA_wqu.jpg)




And let that be the end of it. Militants get on my tits. :)
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on April 15, 2017, 06:35:00 PM
When was that man.
Funny he didn't do that to me like.
Dave can be somewhat.... Er forthright with his views, just tell him to fuck off.

Think it was about 2 years ago, I passed the interviews and all that, then they done that thing when they put us on the screen and the website with our names and how to vote, unfortunately I didn't get enough votes (which I kind of thought I wouldn't).
It was the first year they done it that way and that tosser was just trolling all the candidates, nothing abusive, just going back through old tweets and suggesting in some way that we weren't as much of an Evertonian as him. He's a sad cunt.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Gash on April 15, 2017, 06:42:41 PM
That Kelvin McKenzie article's dug the club out of an awkward situation. They can ban the Sun which keeps the fire breathers happy and they can use the article as the reason for the ban, everyone's happy.

To be fair, in light of what was said in the article the ban is justified for that reason.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: cantoffee on April 15, 2017, 06:45:51 PM
Worse than the article is his response saying that claiming the article is racist is "beyond parody" - nah mate, it's actually just simple racism you mouth breathing fuck wit. The sooner he stops stealing our air with his breath the better.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on April 15, 2017, 06:49:17 PM
Was never really in favour of banning. Why should we just because Liverpool did and especially as it was a quarter of a centry late. I do think this changes things though. Its another attack, its current and its on 1 of our players and utterly uncalled for. Happy we have now though in truth it really means fuck all.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: ally2 on April 15, 2017, 06:55:39 PM
Complete shit rag don't get me wrong but it isn't racism ffs
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bally on April 15, 2017, 07:06:12 PM
Think it was about 2 years ago, I passed the interviews and all that, then they done that thing when they put us on the screen and the website with our names and how to vote, unfortunately I didn't get enough votes (which I kind of thought I wouldn't).
It was the first year they done it that way and that tosser was just trolling all the candidates, nothing abusive, just going back through old tweets and suggesting in some way that we weren't as much of an Evertonian as him. He's a sad cunt.
Was that the year I was first on the shortlist too or the year before
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: blueToffee on April 15, 2017, 07:08:16 PM
Complete shit rag don't get me wrong but it isn't racism ffs

I tend to agree as that would've meant there was some research going on into Barkley's heritage. Whereas this was just some small minded, regional biased rant without any pretence of journalistic standards. How something like that passed any sort of editor is amazing.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: GLewis on April 15, 2017, 07:08:37 PM
Complete shit rag don't get me wrong but it isn't racism ffs

Re the bit about people from liverpool racism is probably just the easiest word to tag to it.

It is prejudicial though and should come under the same thing as any other form of abuse re a specific set of people.

It's never picked up in the chants etc as it's seen as banter etc.

But in Italy you can get parts of your ground shut for chants against whoever, but northern teams have had bans for singing things like southern teams' supporters are too poor to wash etc.

But in general here, not just in football, it is seen as fair game to say something derogatory to you.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on April 15, 2017, 07:10:15 PM
Was that the year I was first on the shortlist too or the year before

It was towards the end of 2014 I think, I think it was the year before you maybe?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Blue Lagoon on April 15, 2017, 07:13:32 PM
Fair move by the club. Even if the so called columnist didn't know of Barkley's mixed heritage, he still referred to him as "thick", stated all rich scousers are drug dealers - and lets face it, unaware of a persons heritage or not, you don't in this age refer to anybody as a monkey of any sort. Especially not when you are writing for an internationally recognised newspaper/rumour & propaganda rag (delete as appropriate).
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bluedylan on April 15, 2017, 07:25:19 PM
Lots of RS comments saying stuff like 'better late than never'. Dickheads. I wish we didn't have to be associated with them in any ban, regardless of what's happened.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: GLewis on April 15, 2017, 07:27:55 PM
Lots of RS comments saying stuff like 'better late than never'. Dickheads. I wish we didn't have to be associated with them in any ban, regardless of what's happened.

To be fair there are probably some of our fans moaning that it took so long.

But less than over 25 years gap though so I wouldn't worry unduly, we've clearly done nothing than be supportive over the years.

Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Gash on April 15, 2017, 07:28:33 PM
The club are certainly making out that it's the latest article that's the reason but it looks like Joe Anderson and Stan Collymore etc are determined to make this a Hillsborough thing. Especially Joe Anderson who sounds like he's claiming all the credit for it.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: GLewis on April 15, 2017, 07:35:27 PM
The club are certainly making out that it's the latest article that's the reason but it looks like Joe Anderson and Stan Collymore etc are determined to make this a Hillsborough thing. Especially Joe Anderson who sounds like he's claiming all the credit for it.

Well I suppose it suits us to point to the last article as it's specific to us and avoids why we haven't done it earlier.

The others are commentariat angling for the widest audience possible, whereas just picking on Barkley or us in general isn't that interesting.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Tony Clifton on April 15, 2017, 07:38:54 PM
The club are certainly making out that it's the latest article that's the reason but it looks like Joe Anderson and Stan Collymore etc are determined to make this a Hillsborough thing. Especially Joe Anderson who sounds like he's claiming all the credit for it.

Wouldn't expect anything less from Sad Joe.  He's an embarrasment to us all.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ell Capitan on April 15, 2017, 08:06:51 PM
Complete shit rag don't get me wrong but it isn't racism ffs

I'm often one to give the benefit of the doubt, but on this occasion I don't agree.

You can't tell me an experienced football journo doesn't know that Barkley has Nigerian heritage. The story was in several national papers when Barkley first started making the England squad. It got resurrected again before the 2016 World Cup. I find it highly unlikely that Kelvin MacKenzie, who knows Barkley well enough to write full articles about him, wasn't aware of that fairly well known piece of information.

MacKenzie comes from a generation where for many racism was second nature, and who has committed his thoughts on black people to paper several times, publicly. The man is a demonstrable racist and there's absolutely nothing to suggest he's changed his views on the matter (and plenty to suggest he hasn't).

Now, perhaps his thought process wasn't as explicit as "I'm going to compare Barkley to a gorilla because of his black grandparent".

But once MacKenzie learned that Ross came from African heritage, did that later influence - perhaps subliminally - his perception that Ross is stupid?

And was his use of the gorilla as the point of comparison influenced by the usage of that animal as an insult to denote stupidity in black people? An insult I'd wager he'd thrown out many times before it become taboo in society. Gorillas are smart. They certainly aren't my go-to animal to denote stupidity.

In fact, can you imagine anyone who isn't racist committing these words to paper "I have always judged Ross Barkley as one of our dimmest footballers. There is something about the lack of reflection in his eyes which makes me certain not only are the lights not on, there is definitely nobody at home. I get a similar feeling when seeing a gorilla at the zoo".

Maybe the comparison was deliberate and malicious. Maybe it's a slightly more subtle form of racism. Either way, sorry, but personally I don't see the case for giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ridge on April 15, 2017, 08:20:03 PM
The best thing to do in this scenario, is to consider the situation without the RS influences. The ban is not for them or on their behalf or because of any pressure they've applied. The defence is for Barkley, the fans and the club, that just happens to align with the RS on this occasion. If this was the Daily Mail, I would expect a very different response from RS fans, but the same action from us. In life you will have to dance with the devil, it doesn't mean you have to change all your steps.

The Sun made this into a huge story, then called Barkley thick and the missing link, called everyone from the city a drug dealer etc. The article is often the sort of thing that happens when players want to leave a club, as it devalues them. I don't think Barkley or his agent had any intention of this happening or getting out there, but it will have devalued him and/or make him more likely to want to leave or at least make this an awkward time for him.

I'd be fairly sure McKenzie wasn't aware about heritage,  and it's not hard to imagine him taking offence at the idea that someone needs to edit or check his work.

But we have a duty of care to Barkley, as an asset as well as a person and the description of him deserves a robust rebuke. I'd understand why he'd reconsider his position if we didn't given circumstances. He's been the victim of a scandalised sucker punch, then used as a denigrated weapon by a bitter, twisted cunt of a man.

If this was some small online publication, I could understand why you don't give it exposure. But the Sun are capable of setting the news agenda as they have done here, and ignoring what is already a scandal, rarely works.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: ally2 on April 15, 2017, 08:30:33 PM
Without getting caught up in the emotion of this, my judgement of this piece is based on whether this guy would be happy to make such thoughts into speech man to man.  That always tells you what you need to know.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: bacon sarnie on April 15, 2017, 08:41:21 PM
Call a company meeting & drop one of them big Trump bombs on the building. Bye-bye. End of.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ridge on April 15, 2017, 09:27:01 PM
I'm often one to give the benefit of the doubt, but on this occasion I don't agree.

You can't tell me an experienced football journo doesn't know that Barkley has Nigerian heritage. The story was in several national papers when Barkley first started making the England squad. It got resurrected again before the 2016 World Cup. I find it highly unlikely that Kelvin MacKenzie, who knows Barkley well enough to write full articles about him, wasn't aware of that fairly well known piece of information.

MacKenzie comes from a generation where for many racism was second nature, and who has committed his thoughts on black people to paper several times, publicly. The man is a demonstrable racist and there's absolutely nothing to suggest he's changed his views on the matter (and plenty to suggest he hasn't).

Now, perhaps his thought process wasn't as explicit as "I'm going to compare Barkley to a gorilla because of his black grandparent".

But once MacKenzie learned that Ross came from African heritage, did that later influence - perhaps subliminally - his perception that Ross is stupid?

And was his use of the gorilla as the point of comparison influenced by the usage of that animal as an insult to denote stupidity in black people? An insult I'd wager he'd thrown out many times before it become taboo in society. Gorillas are smart. They certainly aren't my go-to animal to denote stupidity.

In fact, can you imagine anyone who isn't racist committing these words to paper "I have always judged Ross Barkley as one of our dimmest footballers. There is something about the lack of reflection in his eyes which makes me certain not only are the lights not on, there is definitely nobody at home. I get a similar feeling when seeing a gorilla at the zoo".

Maybe the comparison was deliberate and malicious. Maybe it's a slightly more subtle form of racism. Either way, sorry, but personally I don't see the case for giving him the benefit of the doubt.

His heritage was an after thought, because it's an indirect attack on the City, Barkley wasn't the cut and thrust of the story. He denigrates Barkley as thick and worthless, but only to build blame to shift. He probably spent a few minutes looking at the manna of the Barkley story and then spent every waking second between then and finishing article on thinking of all the different ways to call people cunts.

In terms of the racism issue, there is the fairly obvious point that without the heritage, very few considered it racist, but once Barkley's heritage was raised it became a big issue. But white people in UK who campaign on racism matters tend not to find comparisons to primates offensive for some reason, they are more concerned about having freedom to say it. But also it's presumed you can't be racist among your own racial group, there is somewhat of an impunity for self denigration. But I do think you can make the case that while Barkley may be 1/8 Nigerian, McKenzie will have some too at some point, maybe he's got Ghanaian heritage and that's why he's having a pop.  :whistle:

With regard to Barkley's heritage, it was available in public domain, but probably a long way down the pecking order in terms of stories or info. We naturally have a higher level of knowledge of Everton players and I'm sure there were plenty of us who didn't know or had forgotten about it, until this re raised it.

It's that time of the year when McKenzie gets the most abuse, and I think people are always somewhat reflective of what they receive. I wouldn't be surprised if he was drunk, manically laughing and spitting through gritted teeth as he was writing it. There is an art or skill to contained offence, much like controlled aggression in football. If you can offend only a selected group in society, a minority will cheer you on, while majority reserve judgement, give benefit of doubt or lack interest.

When you are trying to deliberately offend a group, you try so hard to offend you sometimes forget where the boundaries lay and the context changes. People like McKenzie who have been editors, will rarely admit their mistakes in public and assume they know best on all matters, the narrative just adapts. But he quickly realised he'd dropped a bollock and is desperately scrambling for some sort of defence and to try and isolate himself from liability.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: MexicanToffee on April 15, 2017, 11:20:07 PM
His heritage was an after thought, because it's an indirect attack on the City, Barkley wasn't the cut and thrust of the story. He denigrates Barkley as thick and worthless, but only to build blame to shift. He probably spent a few minutes looking at the manna of the Barkley story and then spent every waking second between then and finishing article on thinking of all the different ways to call people cunts.

In terms of the racism issue, there is the fairly obvious point that without the heritage, very few considered it racist, but once Barkley's heritage was raised it became a big issue. But white people in UK who campaign on racism matters tend not to find comparisons to primates offensive for some reason, they are more concerned about having freedom to say it. But also it's presumed you can't be racist among your own racial group, there is somewhat of an impunity for self denigration. But I do think you can make the case that while Barkley may be 1/8 Nigerian, McKenzie will have some too at some point, maybe he's got Ghanaian heritage and that's why he's having a pop.  :whistle:

With regard to Barkley's heritage, it was available in public domain, but probably a long way down the pecking order in terms of stories or info. We naturally have a higher level of knowledge of Everton players and I'm sure there were plenty of us who didn't know or had forgotten about it, until this re raised it.

It's that time of the year when McKenzie gets the most abuse, and I think people are always somewhat reflective of what they receive. I wouldn't be surprised if he was drunk, manically laughing and spitting through gritted teeth as he was writing it. There is an art or skill to contained offence, much like controlled aggression in football. If you can offend only a selected group in society, a minority will cheer you on, while majority reserve judgement, give benefit of doubt or lack interest.

When you are trying to deliberately offend a group, you try so hard to offend you sometimes forget where the boundaries lay and the context changes. People like McKenzie who have been editors, will rarely admit their mistakes in public and assume they know best on all matters, the narrative just adapts. But he quickly realised he'd dropped a bollock and is desperately scrambling for some sort of defence and to try and isolate himself from liability.
Correct me if I am wrong, but ignorance is not a defence in the eyes of the law and certainly not in any potential civil suit if he were to seek damages for defamation.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ridge on April 15, 2017, 11:46:24 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but ignorance is not a defence in the eyes of the law and certainly not in any potential civil suit if he were to seek damages for defamation.

Under law we all have certain obligations where ignorance is not an excuse, but generally it's exhibit A, B and C in many legal matters. As far as I'm aware, I thought it's considered as mitigating circumstances or adds context, but as an excuse on its own it carries no water or merit. While ignorance can be no excuse for certain things, in the details it becomes an incredibly useful tool to absolve of culpability.

I think here, you're looking into what is reasonable ignorance, it's surely a wise idea to establish and punish more significantly if comments are malicious, rather than naive. But defence team then has case to demonstrate the levels of ignorance of defendant, especially on the more prominent matters. Generally anything that harms your defence is generally a good thing to forget about prejudgement.

Law takes people's situation and position into account when making judgements, a man under duress may act out of character.  But also the accused sometimes literally had no knowledge what they were doing was illegal and I'm sure there are many examples of things that are illegal, but you may not consider immoral.

Do a peaceful protest at a nuclear facility, do a comedy routine about terrorism in a sensitive area and you may be punished in a way that seems disproportionately harsh. But morality and legality don't always meet, defame a small business owner and you'll probably be refused service, defame a powerful, rich business owner and you'll find your life on hold for years while they fight you in court case after court case.

My general rule is that it's not worth picking battles with people prepared to go to war, and you need to be wise before choosing to do so. McKenzie is exactly the sort of person who fights all his court cases in the public domain, as that's where most of the judgements are at least framed. But he tiptoes in to the most offensive territory, because he is reassured about the law and what is permissible in court.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: MexicanToffee on April 15, 2017, 11:52:01 PM
Under law we all have certain obligations where ignorance is not an excuse, but generally it's exhibit A, B and C in many legal matters. As far as I'm aware, I thought it's considered as mitigating circumstances or adds context, but as an excuse on its own it carries no water or merit. While ignorance can be no excuse for certain things, in the details it becomes an incredibly useful tool to absolve of culpability.

I think here, you're looking into what is reasonable ignorance, it's surely a wise idea to establish and punish more significantly if comments are malicious, rather than naive. But defence team then has case to demonstrate the levels of ignorance of defendant, especially on the more prominent matters. Generally anything that harms your defence is generally a good thing to forget about prejudgement.

Law takes people's situation and position into account when making judgements, a man under duress may act out of character.  But also the accused sometimes literally had no knowledge what they were doing was illegal and I'm sure there are many examples of things that are illegal, but you may not consider immoral.

Do a peaceful protest at a nuclear facility, do a comedy routine about terrorism in a sensitive area and you may be punished in a way that seems disproportionately harsh. But morality and legality don't always meet, defame a small business owner and you'll probably be refused service, defame a powerful, rich business owner and you'll find your life on hold for years while they fight you in court case after court case.

My general rule is that it's not worth picking battles with people prepared to go to war, and you need to be wise before choosing to do so. McKenzie is exactly the sort of person who fights all his court cases in the public domain, as that's where most of the judgements are at least framed. But he tiptoes in to the most offensive territory, because he is reassured about the law and what is permissible in court.

Well the court of popular opinion has already found him guilty but I think what is key is what you describe as being "reasonable ignorance". I think most people would consider it normal practice for a journalist to do some background research on a anyone you are about to frame an article around. Whether a court would is another question.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: ally2 on April 16, 2017, 12:55:19 AM
So is his grandfather black or white then?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Simon Paul on April 16, 2017, 01:09:24 AM
typical that the day we ban The Sun, I get sunburnt at the match

Everton that.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Escla on April 16, 2017, 01:15:18 AM
So is his grandfather black or white then?

Who cares ?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: ally2 on April 16, 2017, 01:19:32 AM
Who cares ?

Because it's the whole basis of the performed racism angle.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Escla on April 16, 2017, 01:24:38 AM
Because it's the whole basis of the performed racism angle.
Again, who cares about that but FYI, colour has nothing to do with racism.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: irishtoffee on April 16, 2017, 03:43:56 AM
Again, who cares about that but FYI, colour has nothing to do with racism.
It does really or it's just discrimination rather than racism isn't it? I prefer to think there's only one human race really but I know that's a bit simplistic.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Confucius on April 16, 2017, 10:04:41 AM
It does really or it's just discrimination rather than racism isn't it? I prefer to think there's only one human race really but I know that's a bit simplistic.

So it's ok to call a white person a monkey?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on April 16, 2017, 02:47:21 PM
Wasn't aware I should now be using mixed heritage instead of mixed race. PC brigade at it again.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: ally2 on April 16, 2017, 03:52:12 PM
Again, who cares about that but FYI, colour has nothing to do with racism.

It does.

And calling someone a monkey is a racist insult that is used towards black people on a par with throwing bananas etc. It clearly has more resonance ink that context.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: dazfrancis on April 16, 2017, 04:29:44 PM
The Sun and the Mail are absolute poison.

I'm glad it's banned, and hopefully it will set a precedent for other places/organisations to ban it for any offence, racism or scummy shit they post in the future.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: eyesalwaysblue on April 16, 2017, 09:18:51 PM
Mcenzie is a cunt if he wasn't he wouldn't be working for that lot, they would love to stand by
lies they have told before but had to crawl and snivel to find a way back but it didn't work,
For me it didn't work because everyone knew they didn't mean it especially here....
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Escla on April 18, 2017, 02:25:12 PM
I mean, really ! Shock horror, policemen take a tea break and actually eat bits of dead pig in between two slices of bread ! And the Sun call this an "exclusive"  does anybody in this country actually buy this paper ? If so I can only imagine that they know what every single window on in their house tastes like.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3330297/eight-police-officers-pictured-relaxing-in-the-sun-with-tea-and-bacon-sarnies-for-45-minutes-while-on-shift/
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Toddacelli on April 18, 2017, 02:34:06 PM
To be honest, if someone had asked me before this story came up, I'd have thought they were already banned from both clubs.

"Banned from Goodison you say?

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Donald-Trump-Confused-Face-2015-Republican-Debate.gif)

Overdue."
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bally on April 18, 2017, 03:56:23 PM
To be honest, if someone had asked me before this story came up, I'd have thought they were already banned from both clubs.

"Banned from Goodison you say?

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Donald-Trump-Confused-Face-2015-Republican-Debate.gif)

Overdue."
And I thought exactly the same, I live in the fucking city.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bluedylan on April 18, 2017, 04:04:10 PM
Not into banning things and censorship, personally. All feels a bit bandwagony this. I think it's much better to let idiots expose their idiocy than to ban them.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Toddacelli on April 18, 2017, 04:22:06 PM
Not into banning things and censorship, personally. All feels a bit bandwagony this. I think it's much better to let idiots expose their idiocy than to ban them.

It's not censorship though is it? We're not stopping them from writing whatever they want, we're just saying "We find your actions unacceptable and no longer wish to be a part of your circus."

Which I, for one, think is perfectly fine.

If you want to talk about infringing people's rights - what about being forced against your will to work with an organisation that you morally disagree with?
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: BlueBeagle on April 18, 2017, 04:45:13 PM
It's not censorship though is it? We're not stopping them from writing whatever they want, we're just saying "We find your actions unacceptable and no longer wish to be a part of your circus."

Which I, for one, think is perfectly fine.

If you want to talk about infringing people's rights - what about being forced against your will to work with an organisation that you morally disagree with?

Yeah but there's a whole campaign behind it all where groups are actively trying to prevent shops in the area from selling it. From that point of view it is censorship.

If a shop owner wants to stock it then he should be able to without risk of a witch hunt from certain groups.

At the end of the day it should be a persons choice. I wouldn't buy it, ever, but I don't like the idea of some little vigilante campaign effectively taking away my right to make that decision by putting indirect pressure on retailers not to sell it.

Ironic that the most vociferous of campaigners will still have a big fuck off Sky dish attached to their house even though Mr Murdoch was personally responsible for giving that Shit weasel MacKenzie a column in the Sun.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Major Clanger on April 18, 2017, 04:53:52 PM
Not into banning things and censorship, personally. All feels a bit bandwagony this. I think it's much better to let idiots expose their idiocy than to ban them.

It is a bit bandwagony, but refusing to give them privileged access is definitely not the same as censorship.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bally on April 18, 2017, 05:17:25 PM
And this from the guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2017/apr/18/david-squires-on-kelvin-mackenzie-and-the-easter-weekend-of-football?CMP=share_btn_tw
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Toddacelli on April 18, 2017, 06:47:58 PM
Trouble is... how long after drawing a line in the sand does it take for the winds of time to obscure that line?

I'm guessing for some people it's forever.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bluedylan on April 18, 2017, 07:01:02 PM
It's not censorship though is it? We're not stopping them from writing whatever they want, we're just saying "We find your actions unacceptable and no longer wish to be a part of your circus."

Which I, for one, think is perfectly fine.

If you want to talk about infringing people's rights - what about being forced against your will to work with an organisation that you morally disagree with?

This isn't censorship, as you say, but as I've said, I don't agree with bans of any kind (apart from maybe ultra exceptional circumstances). I haven't mentioned infringing people's rights.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Thornton_19 on April 18, 2017, 07:16:53 PM
Ive always wanted to see a heat map of Sun sales in the UK (before the total eclipse of the sun) thing to see how sales had been affected here and the surrounding areas. Suppose that is something they would never release like. I was always interested in seeing it.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: bacon sarnie on April 18, 2017, 09:19:35 PM
I mean, really ! Shock horror, policemen take a tea break and actually eat bits of dead pig in between two slices of bread ! And the Sun call this an "exclusive"  does anybody in this country actually buy this paper ? If so I can only imagine that they know what every single window on in their house tastes like.

Nowt wrong with a bit of dead pig between two slices of bread on the odd occasion but reading that rag on a regular basis will fry whats left of ones brain cell.  Pox on all their houses.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: BlueNoseMike on April 18, 2017, 09:45:24 PM
I prefer to think there's only one human race really but I know that's a bit simplistic.

The Aryan race?

Adolf
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: BlueBeagle on April 18, 2017, 10:42:42 PM
The Aryan race?

Adolf

Olympic 100m mens final
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Major Clanger on April 18, 2017, 10:45:42 PM
Racism is so last century. All the cool kids down with the science are cladeists now.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Toddacelli on April 19, 2017, 02:01:29 PM
This isn't censorship, as you say, but as I've said, I don't agree with bans of any kind (apart from maybe ultra exceptional circumstances). I haven't mentioned infringing people's rights.

You brought up censorship - which is the suppression of free speech - which is a basic human right in most societies. But I'm not here to argue semantics.

For what it's worth, I understand and agree to some extent with the 'bandwagony' comment. People seem to really enjoy feeling outrage at the simplest thing these days.

Having said that, the things that publication said and did, and denied, and refused to apologised for - for many years. When I think of whether or not it is time to let bygones by bygones, I think of the people who campaigned for years but passed away without ever seeing justice or ever knowing if their loved ones were ever vindicated.

My own personal choice is to never have anything to do with them again, but each to his or her own.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Bluedylan on April 19, 2017, 02:28:05 PM
You brought up censorship - which is the suppression of free speech - which is a basic human right in most societies. But I'm not here to argue semantics.

For what it's worth, I understand and agree to some extent with the 'bandwagony' comment. People seem to really enjoy feeling outrage at the simplest thing these days.

Having said that, the things that publication said and did, and denied, and refused to apologised for - for many years. When I think of whether or not it is time to let bygones by bygones, I think of the people who campaigned for years but passed away without ever seeing justice or ever knowing if their loved ones were ever vindicated.

My own personal choice is to never have anything to do with them again, but each to his or her own.

Yeah, as I said, I shouldn't have mentioned censorship. That's a separate point.
Title: Kelvin McKenzie
Post by: april on May 15, 2017, 09:36:35 PM
Has left The S*n.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39926876?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Ridge on May 15, 2017, 10:10:45 PM
By mutual consent
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: ihatecollina on May 15, 2017, 10:58:14 PM
Has left The S*n.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39926876?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central


I wish he would depart this planet...
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Macca77 on May 15, 2017, 11:42:41 PM
With a nice lump sum in his arse pocket
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Thornton_19 on May 16, 2017, 12:18:08 AM
I dont understand this at all to be honest, McKenzies presence isnt going to sway scousers into buying the paper is it?
He will Probably just go get a fat wedge writing somewhere else.
Sadly it doesn't represent a victory in anything.
Title: Re: Banning The Sun from Goodison
Post by: Trowel on May 16, 2017, 04:49:27 AM
/thread
https://twitter.com/jackjpridmore/status/864177978615492608