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NSNO Forums => The Everton Forum => Topic started by: kramer0 on October 13, 2017, 01:43:09 AM

Title: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: kramer0 on October 13, 2017, 01:43:09 AM
I recently saw this graphic summarizing trends in the age profile of our squad:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YbiK-r-Abgw/Wdn0NlLaTTI/AAAAAAAAH5o/W2NY3JTy3G4U1oSY47MxVFVoT8Z7iYMhwCLcBGAs/s1600/9.png)

Full article here: http://thepowerofgoals.blogspot.com/2017/10/premier-league-age-profiles-through-ages.html (http://thepowerofgoals.blogspot.com/2017/10/premier-league-age-profiles-through-ages.html)

Two interesting things:

(1) Look at all of the playing time given to peak-age players in our best seasons. (A lot, which is good.)
(2) Look at the playing time given to peak-age players in the most recent seasons. (Less than the 30+ year olds. Woof.)

I think this highlights what an awful job we've done with the squad since the final years of Moyes' tenure. It was one thing for Moyes to squeeze every last bit out of those players (he earned the right to do this for a couple of years after carefully assembling them) but our subsequent managers have tried to do the same with mixed results (and I think that's being kind). Think about how long we relied on the likes of Distin, Howard, Pienaar, Jagielka, Baines, and [not a Moyes player but still] Barry without ever really lining up proper replacements. This is partly Martinez's fault but it also raises some red flags w/r/t our recruitment under Koeman/Walsh:

Williams (bought at age 31, likely to decline)
Bolasie (bought at age 27, likely to give 2 peak seasons)
Schneiderlin (bought at 27, likely to give 2 peak seasons)
Sigurdsson (bought at 27, likely to give 2 peak seasons)
Rooney (bought at age 31, likely to decline)

You can make one or two of those deals but it's irresponsible to do all of them, especially Williams (with his most likely partner being 34 already) and Sigurdsson (given the price and the fact that we had already signed Klaassen and Rooney). We aimed for the sweet spot with a few signings this summer (Klaassen, Pickford, Keane are all early peak or about to enter peak) and we have no shortage of young attackers with potential (even though Koeman hates most of them) but there seems to be a general lack of planning around transfers. (And that's before we consider that a lot of the players we bought don't look like they belong on the pitch together.)

We can complain all we like about tactics and the manager (who's probably had a hand in at least some of this) but our transfer policy is what's going to kill us long-term. Walsh needs to sort it the fuck out or Moshiri needs to hire someone who can.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: BlueBeagle on October 13, 2017, 02:23:40 AM
"Walsh needs to sort it the fuck out or Moshiri needs to hire someone who can."

We've brought in 6 players this window alone 27 or under so the age thing is clearly being addressed.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: SANA_DR0 on October 13, 2017, 02:28:08 AM
I've mentioned this in other posts,  I noticed the ages of the players that Koeman had ear marked to bring in. Rooney/Siggy/Williams, compared to the younger players Walsh has signed for Unsworths team and for the first team..

Koeman wanted experienced players, he didnt care if it wasnt mid-long term as he wouldnt be here and he wanted them to be premiership ready, Which is why i credit Walsh, he's scouting the youngsters that will benefit us in years to come.

If Lookman was 28 and a Koeman signing then he would play, took DCL a while to break into the team as well, even when most of us wanted/saw his benefit from the fleeting subs appearances he made, I would kinda say the same for Davies, probably our midfielder/break through player of last year, but Koeman would rather play HIS player (Morgan Schneiderlin)
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: BlueBeagle on October 13, 2017, 03:01:29 AM
took DCL a while to break into the team as well, even when most of us wanted/saw his benefit from the fleeting subs appearances he made

Lol.

Might be something to do with the slight issue of having a 30-goal-a-season Lukaku ahead of him last season.

As for this season, he's featured in every single Premier League game, starting in the majoriry of them.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: SANA_DR0 on October 13, 2017, 04:51:29 AM
Lol.

Might be something to do with the slight issue of having a 30-goal-a-season Lukaku ahead of him last season.

As for this season, he's featured in every single Premier League game, starting in the majoriry of them.

im on about this season, Rooney and Sandro started many of them at the start of the season, its only the last 6 or so games that he has been a reg starter. well he has started 4 prem games this season.
https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/31/Show/England-Everton

I recall at the start of the season, he wasnt being played, it was only after the third or so game. (besides man city) that he started. Sandro and Rooney where the preferred choice. As i said took him a bit of time to be a starter this season. even tho most of the fans saw that he was offering more than Rooney and Sandro. go back and check the match day threads.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: BlueBeagle on October 13, 2017, 05:26:22 AM
im on about this season, Rooney and Sandro started many of them at the start of the season, its only the last 6 or so games that he has been a reg starter. well he has started 4 prem games this season.
https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/31/Show/England-Everton

I recall at the start of the season, he wasnt being played, it was only after the third or so game. (besides man city) that he started. Sandro and Rooney where the preferred choice. As i said took him a bit of time to be a starter this season. even tho most of the fans saw that he was offering more than Rooney and Sandro. go back and check the match day threads.

Took him a bit of time? You're talking straight out of your arse hole. He started 4 of our first 6 competitive games.

Here's the full list anyway...

Started against Ruzomberok
Started against Stoke
Started against Split away
Started against City
Started against Atalanta away
Started against Sunderland
Started against Bournemouth
Started against Burnley

Played a full 45 against Spurs also.

Has come on in most, if not all, of the other games we've played so far that he didn't start. I can't be arsed going into the detail.

Think it's you that needs to go back and check the matchday threads tbh because you are quite clearly very wrong.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: brap2 on October 13, 2017, 02:10:44 PM
im on about this season, Rooney and Sandro started many of them at the start of the season, its only the last 6 or so games that he has been a reg starter. well he has started 4 prem games this season.
https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/31/Show/England-Everton

I recall at the start of the season, he wasnt being played, it was only after the third or so game. (besides man city) that he started. Sandro and Rooney where the preferred choice. As i said took him a bit of time to be a starter this season. even tho most of the fans saw that he was offering more than Rooney and Sandro. go back and check the match day threads.

Really? I remember people saying - he must be doing something fucking special in training because he's done fuck all.

His breakout game was City, don't rewrite history.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Waltzer on October 13, 2017, 02:41:31 PM
I've mentioned this in other posts,  I noticed the ages of the players that Koeman had ear marked to bring in. Rooney/Siggy/Williams, compared to the younger players Walsh has signed for Unsworths team and for the first team..


Isnt it a prerequisite to sign younger players for an under 23s team, or am i missing something? Id be pretty worried if Walsh was signing 28 years old for Unsworth, that would be up there with not signing a striker to replace Lukaku. And what inside info have you got that confirms Koeman signed all the old players and Walsh signed the young ones, or is it just 'I want Koeman out so ill blame all the apparent s**t signings on him'?
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: SANA_DR0 on October 13, 2017, 05:19:22 PM
Took him a bit of time? You're talking straight out of your arse hole. He started 4 of our first 6 competitive games.

Here's the full list anyway...

Started against Ruzomberok
Started against Stoke
Started against Split away
Started against City
Started against Atalanta away
Started against Sunderland
Started against Bournemouth
Started against Burnley

Played a full 45 against Spurs also.

Has come on in most, if not all, of the other games we've played so far that he didn't start. I can't be arsed going into the detail.

Think it's you that needs to go back and check the matchday threads tbh because you are quite clearly very wrong.


i mentioned premier league games. he didnt play v man utd and was brought on v  chelsea,  as my original post said. he started 4 of the 7 premier league games. i guess you dont recall us having no outlet in numerous matches at the start of the season cos no one was there to stretch the pitch, until DCL started being used more..  yes he has come on in most games, thats due to Koeman realising we weren't creating anything or even making the oppositions defence come  under any pressure.. as i said.. Rooney was the main stay. along with Sandro at playing a smaller roll at the start of the season... yes DCL played earlier in the season but he was hardly EVER the number 9, he was the right wing back or the right/left hand side attacker.. he wasnt utilized in the number 9 role until more recently.
Isnt it a prerequisite to sign younger players for an under 23s team, or am i missing something? Id be pretty worried if Walsh was signing 28 years old for Unsworth, that would be up there with not signing a striker to replace Lukaku. And what inside info have you got that confirms Koeman signed all the old players and Walsh signed the young ones, or is it just 'I want Koeman out so ill blame all the apparent s**t signings on him'?

i guess you dont recall Koeman going all out for Siggy, or even seen the interviews? or going out for Martina? I guess you know Martina was a Walsh buy?  anyway, i'm not going to argue over the interviews i've seen and read.

Koeman stared many times, he wanted older players who have played in the premier league, so they can hit the ground running.. but yeah as brap said to me. re write history trololo
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Waltzer on October 13, 2017, 05:52:35 PM

i guess you dont recall Koeman going all out for Siggy, or even seen the interviews? or going out for Martina? I guess you know Martina was a Walsh buy?  anyway, i'm not going to argue over the interviews i've seen and read.

Koeman stared many times, he wanted older players who have played in the premier league, so they can hit the ground running.. but yeah as brap said to me. re write history trololo

Theres a few things here, yes Koeman did go on about Sigurdson and hes previously mentioned Martina as cover as he was free, however, the role of the Director of Football is to give stability and oversight ensuring when the manager leaves we have a strategic plan to move forward with little or no disruption, he looks beyond the here and now. Also, as previously stated by Koeman, Walsh is very much in charge of transfers. I have no doubt they discuss and debate who should be bought it but you're inferring that Walsh is pretty spineless and incompetent as hes letting Koeman sign who he wants regardless, which you may have a point considering we signed 3 number 10s whilst having another on our books but the point im making is that a DoF shouldn't be letting this happen, unless they both agree on the vision?
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: blue1948 on October 13, 2017, 06:08:35 PM
"Walsh needs to sort it the fuck out or Moshiri needs to hire someone who can."

We've brought in 6 players this window alone 27 or under so the age thing is clearly being addressed.
Shh donn't tell him you are spoiling the story
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: blue1948 on October 13, 2017, 06:13:37 PM
It is quite obvious that Koeman wants/needs players with experience and Walsh is providing for that and the future .What is hard to understand ,if there is an overlap then all the better .
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: BlueBeagle on October 13, 2017, 06:14:36 PM

i mentioned premier league games.

Stop digging, you're wrong. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Lxxx on October 13, 2017, 11:50:39 PM
I'm probably more excited about the future of the squad than I have been at any stage during my life supporting us to be honest.

The issue as I see it is we have too few players at their peak and the ones who are there are underachieving. The rest are either past their best or still learning their trade. The only players at their peak are Schneiderlin and Sig and both are playing way below what is expected of them. We're only about three signings away from having a pretty good squad in my opinion. Once we buy a new centre half, left back and centre forward, all at a good age with pace and athleticism, then squad in my mind will look pretty well balanced age-wise.

I'm less worried about the future than I am about the present.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: van der Meyde on October 14, 2017, 02:01:50 AM
The only players at their peak are Schneiderlin and Sig and both are playing way below what is expected of them. We're only about three signings away from having a pretty good squad in my opinion.
Gueye is 28, so should probably add him in too.

Bolasie and Coleman are probably the only others you could potentially put in that category.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Ell Capitan on October 14, 2017, 03:45:13 AM
Well that was depressing.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Lxxx on October 14, 2017, 04:54:18 AM
Gueye is 28, so should probably add him in too.

Bolasie and Coleman are probably the only others you could potentially put in that category.

I didnít think Gueye was that old to be honest.

I didnít include those two as we arguably donít know what player might return after two pretty serious injuries.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Makis on October 14, 2017, 07:48:56 PM
That figure ends two seasons ago. Age profile has changed quite a lot since, as others have pointed out. There are four players aged 30+ who play regularly (Jagielka, Williams, Baines, Rooney). Stekelenburg, Lennon and Mirallas are the other 30+ players in the squad. Coleman is 29, Bolasie, Martina, Gueye and Sigurdsson are 28. And it looks like the bulk of the squad is between 24 and 29 (a total of 14 players). There are eight under 24 players who can be considered first team (including Barkley, mind).

There has been a significant shift, when that data was plotted we still had Howard, Baines, Jagielka and Barry starting most games. Osman also played a lot (more than half) while Eto'o, Kone and Distin all had over 10 matches and Pienaar clocked 9.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Ridge on October 15, 2017, 12:52:18 AM
I recently saw this graphic summarizing trends in the age profile of our squad:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YbiK-r-Abgw/Wdn0NlLaTTI/AAAAAAAAH5o/W2NY3JTy3G4U1oSY47MxVFVoT8Z7iYMhwCLcBGAs/s1600/9.png)

Full article here: http://thepowerofgoals.blogspot.com/2017/10/premier-league-age-profiles-through-ages.html (http://thepowerofgoals.blogspot.com/2017/10/premier-league-age-profiles-through-ages.html)

Two interesting things:

(1) Look at all of the playing time given to peak-age players in our best seasons. (A lot, which is good.)
(2) Look at the playing time given to peak-age players in the most recent seasons. (Less than the 30+ year olds. Woof.)

I think this highlights what an awful job we've done with the squad since the final years of Moyes' tenure. It was one thing for Moyes to squeeze every last bit out of those players (he earned the right to do this for a couple of years after carefully assembling them) but our subsequent managers have tried to do the same with mixed results (and I think that's being kind). Think about how long we relied on the likes of Distin, Howard, Pienaar, Jagielka, Baines, and [not a Moyes player but still] Barry without ever really lining up proper replacements. This is partly Martinez's fault but it also raises some red flags w/r/t our recruitment under Koeman/Walsh:

Williams (bought at age 31, likely to decline)
Bolasie (bought at age 27, likely to give 2 peak seasons)
Schneiderlin (bought at 27, likely to give 2 peak seasons)
Sigurdsson (bought at 27, likely to give 2 peak seasons)
Rooney (bought at age 31, likely to decline)

You can make one or two of those deals but it's irresponsible to do all of them, especially Williams (with his most likely partner being 34 already) and Sigurdsson (given the price and the fact that we had already signed Klaassen and Rooney). We aimed for the sweet spot with a few signings this summer (Klaassen, Pickford, Keane are all early peak or about to enter peak) and we have no shortage of young attackers with potential (even though Koeman hates most of them) but there seems to be a general lack of planning around transfers. (And that's before we consider that a lot of the players we bought don't look like they belong on the pitch together.)

We can complain all we like about tactics and the manager (who's probably had a hand in at least some of this) but our transfer policy is what's going to kill us long-term. Walsh needs to sort it the fuck out or Moshiri needs to hire someone who can.

I'm not entirely sure how that's what you see from that. From my perspective Moyes left us with an aging squad, most of the talented ones, were over 30. In Moyes last few seasons, nearly half the team is over 30. In his last season, we had lowest amount of under 24s of his time here and very little in terms of assets.

Martinez sold Fellaini, Anichebe, Jelavic, got Deulofeu, Lukaku on loan, played Barkley, Stones and had £10m profit. Second window he spent pretty much entire budget getting Lukaku permanently. Last summer here, bought 9 players only 1 over 25. Since Koeman and Walsh have come in, we've sold several of the younger players and bought older players. But Walsh didn't decide to sell any of them, and the players he's bought have been around start of 'peak years'.

We have been buying quality youngsters as well, Vlasic looks experienced and could be special, Sandro is still adapting but big potential, Lookman is very talented, DCL just needs to score a few, could be long term solution, Onyekuru looks seriously talented. Bolasie, Coleman, Funes Mori all out with long term injuries would be players in peak years. Barkley out and soon off. Besic, McCarthy both had injury problems.

But I think under Moyes and Martinez we only paid money for well priced talent, otherwise it was youngsters or stop gaps. With Koeman and Walsh, the feeling was that the money would swash about and land some more marquee signings. But clubs across continent wanted big money and there's not a huge list of players who would obviously have improved us and wanted to come.

We have probably spent about as much in last year and a bit, as we had historically before that. Moyes would be saying we'll go with what we've got, Martinez would have said they have phenomenal potential, Koeman doesn't seem to want half the team and the half the team he does want, doesn't want to play for him.

I think there is truth that Martinez inherited a solid defence and was able to add flexibility to a organised unit, but it became disorganised. Koeman inherited a talented young team and huge resources, but we've sold the best players and struggle to replace, Stones, Barkley, Lukaku with players with same talent or potential.

It's expected that woth more money we can have a bigger squad and be less reliant on youngsters and olders players. But prior to Koeman and the money, that was a luxury we couldn't afford. I don't see a huge amount of influence from Koeman on a lot of youngster signings. I see it more with the squad players and a few of the main signings, but if he knows who he wants, we had the money. If he doesn't know who he wants, but he wants something special, he has the potential, if he wants reliable, we have experience, if players aren't working we have better youngsters to fill in and show effort.

I see the problem as similar to Spurs when they sold Bale, in that DoF bought a list of talented players and it wasn't easy or obvious for manager how they fit together or which options is best or will be best long term. We have a lot of options, but that probably confuses things further. But that's more reason to not end up with a team that looks empty, a month or 2 into the season.

I see our transfers as always having been pretty good, some won't work and some take time. But we didn't have a lot of players left that Koeman wanted, we replaced over half the first team and that high turnover of players means it will take some time to adapt and others time to develop. Understandable that Koeman wants results now, but it's always taken time for best new players to find their feet. Recruitment could have gone better, but I don't see what we left on the table. We identified lots of talent and part of the coaches job is to help develop and mould them into a team, he has better options than previous managers.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Lxxx on October 15, 2017, 10:09:58 PM
There's another big rebuilding job to do on that squad. Which seems bonkers to say after two years of it but it's true. On the way out are Jags, Williams, Baines, Mirallas, Barkley, McCarthy, Lennon, Robles and Rooney/Besic just aren't up to it. To be getting rid of another full team's worth of players and signing another double figures worth show's the poor state of the squad. Years and years of poor planning have left us unbalanced and short of quality in key areas. 
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Ridge on October 15, 2017, 11:57:51 PM
There's another big rebuilding job to do on that squad. Which seems bonkers to say after two years of it but it's true. On the way out are Jags, Williams, Baines, Mirallas, Barkley, McCarthy, Lennon, Robles and Rooney/Besic just aren't up to it. To be getting rid of another full team's worth of players and signing another double figures worth show's the poor state of the squad. Years and years of poor planning have left us unbalanced and short of quality in key areas. 

When have we had a better squad?
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Lxxx on October 16, 2017, 12:06:59 AM
When have we had a better squad?

Donít get the question you are asking.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Ridge on October 16, 2017, 12:51:29 AM
Donít get the question you are asking.

Most of those players would have been important first team players, they are good enough to be playing in PL, let alone as squad players for us. In terms of transfers as an ambitious club, you never really replace reserves, you buy starters and there is a domino effect behind or youngsters to overtake them.

But it's not that our squad has been stretched bare, we still have many players who have hardly featured despite number of games.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Lxxx on October 16, 2017, 12:59:25 AM
Most of those players would have been important first team players, they are good enough to be playing in PL, let alone as squad players for us. In terms of transfers as an ambitious club, you never really replace reserves, you buy starters and there is a domino effect behind or youngsters to overtake them.

But it's not that our squad has been stretched bare, we still have many players who have hardly featured despite number of games.

They aren't. Williams, Baines, Jags, Rooney and Lennon are well past their best. Robles and Besic aren't good enough and their is an argument for Mirallas being added to that as well. Barkley wants to leave and we haven't really seen McCarthy for the past few years as he's a perma-crock. You could make a valid case for replacing the vast majority of them and we will have to sooner rather than later.

Luckily we have a really talented group of youngsters who will hopefully help offset that transition.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Ridge on October 16, 2017, 01:02:16 AM
None of those players are urgently needed to be replaced, or holding us back.

The first team has played shit, you could include entire squad in not being good enough at the moment.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: BlueBeagle on October 16, 2017, 01:19:41 AM
None of those players are urgently needed to be replaced, or holding us back.

Williams and Jagielka?

Baines who hasn't found a man with a cross in 3 years and can't get up and down?
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Jimmywhack on October 16, 2017, 01:27:27 AM
Squawka stat baines against the so called best English left backs

You'll be surprised
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Ridge on October 16, 2017, 02:02:21 AM
Williams and Jags are still decent defenders, Keane's leading defence now and often dropping us deep or getting caught for pace.

Baines has hardly taken a set piece in that time, he's still our best full back and one of the best in the league.

But as previously they are not the reason we create so little going forward or playing so shit.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Lxxx on October 16, 2017, 03:15:19 AM
Williams and Jags are still decent defenders, Keane's leading defence now and often dropping us deep or getting caught for pace.

Baines has hardly taken a set piece in that time, he's still our best full back and one of the best in the league.

But as previously they are not the reason we create so little going forward or playing so shit.

I think youíve created your own argument with yourself.

I was stating that after three transfer windows we still have a decent sized rebuilding job to do on the squad. Itís unbalanced and lacking in key areas.
Yes Koeman isnít utilising what he has very well but itís still carrying a lot of players you would otherwise want replacing.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Ridge on October 16, 2017, 05:41:50 AM
I think youíve created your own argument with yourself.

I was stating that after three transfer windows we still have a decent sized rebuilding job to do on the squad. Itís unbalanced and lacking in key areas.
Yes Koeman isnít utilising what he has very well but itís still carrying a lot of players you would otherwise want replacing.

I got that, I just don't get the eagerness to discard good squad players. Some people where complaining about Barry being over the hill the entire time he was here. We'll get injuries and need them at various points. As far as squad players go, we've not had this strength in depth before. Our problem at the moment is the first team having no shape, but we have about 10 attacking midfielders and forwards.

We've spent quarter of billion in little over a year and Baines is the only player still playing from before Koeman. We are lacking in key areas, as in creativity and goals, but that should come from the current team in time, in that Bolasie returns, Vlasic, Sandro settle, players start working together and get to know each other.

If we're going to become a top club, you could argue none of our players are good enough. How many would get in top clubs first team? While all those players mentioned would get a game somewhere else in Premier league. It's not like we are so much better than them, or they are holding us back. We lost our best 2 players, but we strengthened everywhere and with plenty of young talent.
Title: Re: Age Profile of the Everton Squad
Post by: Lxxx on October 16, 2017, 02:02:36 PM
You do realise we will replace the ones we let go donít you. Youíre talking as if weíll lose about a dozen and weíll suddenly lose our strength in depth.

We are badly lacking in width but have two wide players in Lennon and Mirallas who we don't use who are earning over £100k/week between them. We could let them go and bring in one player who is of sufficient quality to be of better use to the first team.

We have two defensive midfielders in McCarthy and Besic who are neither use nor ornament as one is never fit and the other isnít good enough. Again there is over £20m in those two to put towards a better quality of midfielder.

Barkley doesnít want to be here so we move him on and recoup what we can and put the money towards a striker.

To say nothing of the ageing defenders.

The point is there is a fair bit of player trading still to be done to remodel the squad to make it fit for purpose. We might let 8-9 go and bring in 4-5 of better quality before we get a better balance to the squad.