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NSNO Forums => The Everton Forum => Topic started by: TheRam on December 03, 2017, 04:37:43 PM

Title: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: TheRam on December 03, 2017, 04:37:43 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5139115/amp/Sam-Allardyce-set-25m-Steven-NZonzi.html

Already been mentioned.

Did Sam spot him at Blackburn?

He can spot a player can't he.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Brownie on December 04, 2017, 12:58:19 AM
Didn't Moyes try to buy him or was it Martinez?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blargins on December 04, 2017, 01:02:15 AM
Remember the last thread with a player who's name started with an N'?

https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=12535.0
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: TheRam on December 04, 2017, 01:10:06 AM
Didn't Moyes try to buy him or was it Martinez?

Yeah Moyes tried to get him before he went to stoke
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Brownie on December 04, 2017, 01:10:45 AM
Yeah Moyes tried to get him before he went to stoke

Thought I remembered something like that
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Mac934 on December 04, 2017, 01:24:46 AM
Just what we need another midfielder!
Title: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: ally2 on December 04, 2017, 02:00:06 AM
Would be over the moon with him but surely he's just after a new deal at Seville. We would definitely have to let someone go. I'd love Arda Turan as well. Getting on but Sam could definitely get a tune out of him I reckon. Just have to check his attitude. He was at the heart of things when the Turkish national team imploded a few years back.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 04, 2017, 02:02:20 AM
Just what we need another midfielder!

It's not a priority, but he's a real quality player. if he was available for a good price it would be a shame to miss out on the opportunity just because we've already got a few sub-standard players in the same position.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blargins on December 04, 2017, 02:11:12 AM
What type of midfielder is he? Would it allow us to ship out pointless players like McCarthy and Besic?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Jimmywhack on December 04, 2017, 02:16:17 AM
What type of midfielder is he? Would it allow us to ship out pointless players like McCarthy and Besic?
Yes
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Waltzer on December 04, 2017, 02:16:38 AM
What type of midfielder is he? Would it allow us to ship out pointless players like McCarthy and Besic?
DM from what I've seen, he's head and shoulders above anything we've got. Id see him more as a replacement for Schneiderlin
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 04, 2017, 02:30:51 AM
What type of midfielder is he? Would it allow us to ship out pointless players like McCarthy and Besic?

Defensive midfielder. Great in the air, he's 6ft 5. Good control, and usually gets around 90% pass accuracy per season. He's not as mobile as the likes of Besic or Macarthy, bit as you said, they're pointless otherwise.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Mayor Farnum on December 04, 2017, 02:33:00 AM
Didn't Sam have a Turkish midfielder at Blackburn who was getting on a bit? Really skillful.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bluedylan on December 04, 2017, 02:34:26 AM
Didn't Sam have a Turkish midfielder at Blackburn who was getting on a bit? Really skillful.

Tugay. Class player.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Sir Stealth on December 04, 2017, 02:40:03 AM
Nzonzi is class. Has been great at Sevilla we should be all over this
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Waltzer on December 04, 2017, 02:53:34 AM
Nzonzi is class. Has been great at Sevilla we should be all over this
I agree, my only concern is I'd be amazed if there weren't bigger clubs in for him if he is available. 
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: dekko on December 04, 2017, 02:55:45 AM
I’d rather keep McCarthy, Besic and ship  Schneiderlin.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: The Blue 3/4 of Liverpool on December 04, 2017, 03:08:59 AM
I’d take Nzonzi for ALL of them. Great player.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blargins on December 04, 2017, 03:14:49 AM
DM from what I've seen, he's head and shoulders above anything we've got. Id see him more as a replacement for Schneiderlin
Yes
Defensive midfielder. Great in the air, he's 6ft 5. Good control, and usually gets around 90% pass accuracy per season. He's not as mobile as the likes of Besic or Macarthy, bit as you said, they're pointless otherwise.

Then what are we waiting for? Let's go get him.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Martip on December 04, 2017, 04:58:45 AM
DM from what I've seen, he's head and shoulders above anything we've got. Id see him more as a replacement for Schneiderlin
Was gonna say this...his signature would spell the end for Morgan as he can do everything Morgan can better and hives more going forward.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 04, 2017, 06:01:35 AM
Likely going to a CL Club I think. But him or Carvalho would be warmly received.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: kramer0 on December 04, 2017, 06:51:35 AM
N'Zonzi is a very good player, better than anyone we have in defensive midfield. I'm surprised he hasn't moved to a bigger club yet.

Still, I'd rather see us invest in a creative passer or a box-to-box midfielder. Right now, Rooney is the only player we have with any real vision in midfield and Davies is our only true box-to-box player*. Gana (when he's disciplined) and Schneiderlin (when he isn't hiding, see: last season) have enough quality to cover our defensive midfield needs. If Schneiderlin continues to play like he has, I can see the argument for adding a DM, but as is, I think we'd benefit more from someone who contributes something going forward, whether it be chance creation or goals (both, preferably).

I'd like to fit Klaassen into the midfield picture but he doesn't offer enough defensively to play box-to-box and he doesn't fit the passer mold at all. Maybe he has something more to show or maybe Allardyce has another role in mind for him. We'll see. McCarthy showed glimpses of being able to contribute in attack under Koeman but he's never fit, so it's hard to expect anything from him. Besic has a good attitude and some interesting qualities but he's more of a DM and I don't think he'll amount to much without regular appearances (which I don't think he's good enough to earn here).

If we receive a good offer for any of those players, it probably makes sense to sell (as much as I'd like to see more of Klaassen, I'm having a hard time seeing how he works in the context of this squad).

* Edit: Sigurdsson does the box-to-box thing for Iceland so he's a possibility in the middle, as well.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blueToffee on December 04, 2017, 09:44:04 AM
I thought he said in that other article that he didn’t particularly like playing under Allardyce? He likes playing a more open, attacking game ala Sevilla right now.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Paddockoldie on December 04, 2017, 01:53:47 PM
Wakey, wakey lads... dreams over. Arsenal are after him.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 04, 2017, 02:11:00 PM
Wakey, wakey lads... dreams over. Arsenal are after him.

Hate to say it, but he'd be perfect for them.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Toddacelli on December 04, 2017, 02:19:24 PM
Remember the last thread with a player who's name started with an N'?

https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=12535.0


Oh shit! It's only when I read this post that I realised we WEREN'T talking about N'Zogbia all this time!


(http://rs1207.pbsrc.com/albums/bb479/USS-Special/happy/lol/tumblr_lnjpt0x4Nr1qfilp3-1.gif?w=280&h=210&fit=crop)
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Rodenplav64 on December 04, 2017, 08:39:55 PM
N'Zonzi is a very good player, better than anyone we have in defensive midfield. I'm surprised he hasn't moved to a bigger club yet.

Still, I'd rather see us invest in a creative passer or a box-to-box midfielder. Right now, Rooney is the only player we have with any real vision in midfield and Davies is our only true box-to-box player*. Gana (when he's disciplined) and Schneiderlin (when he isn't hiding, see: last season) have enough quality to cover our defensive midfield needs. If Schneiderlin continues to play like he has, I can see the argument for adding a DM, but as is, I think we'd benefit more from someone who contributes something going forward, whether it be chance creation or goals (both, preferably).

I'd like to fit Klaassen into the midfield picture but he doesn't offer enough defensively to play box-to-box and he doesn't fit the passer mold at all. Maybe he has something more to show or maybe Allardyce has another role in mind for him. We'll see. McCarthy showed glimpses of being able to contribute in attack under Koeman but he's never fit, so it's hard to expect anything from him. Besic has a good attitude and some interesting qualities but he's more of a DM and I don't think he'll amount to much without regular appearances (which I don't think he's good enough to earn here).

If we receive a good offer for any of those players, it probably makes sense to sell (as much as I'd like to see more of Klaassen, I'm having a hard time seeing how he works in the context of this squad).

* Edit: Sigurdsson does the box-to-box thing for Iceland so he's a possibility in the middle, as well.

100% do not need any more defensive midfielders . Start looking for someone like ,if not , Jean Serri who is somehow still at Nice .
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Juanito on December 04, 2017, 10:07:08 PM
Sevilla are fighting for Champions League qualification again. Edit - just seen he has fallen out of favour. Would be good to see him here instead of Besic and McCarthy.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: bornblue88 on December 05, 2017, 03:03:45 AM
I reckon Sam has put this out there to play on Morgan's arrogance to get performances out of him.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: SANA_DR0 on December 05, 2017, 06:28:40 PM
used to rate him at Blackburn..

seems like such a long time ago.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 05, 2017, 08:12:14 PM
Steven Nzonzi has been left out of the Sevilla squad ahead of Wednesday's Champions League match and has travelled to London to discuss a transfer. #Arsenal and #Everton interested (L'Equipe)
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Jimmywhack on December 05, 2017, 09:26:06 PM
He turned us down for Stoke didn't he? And that's when we were decent

Unless he wants the cash and be a mercenary there's little chance of this....... Surely?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 06, 2017, 02:15:51 PM
Imagine if we could get a few little mercs in...n’zonzi and aubaumayang ok mega money yeeeees terrible planning but I’d have it.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: kramer0 on December 06, 2017, 11:20:58 PM
The more I think about this, the less I like the idea. What is a Schneiderlin upgrade going to do for us? Playing with a positionally conservative defensive midfielder forces Gana into a box-to-box role, which he plainly isn't good at.

We'd be much better served adding someone who contributes something in attack -- preferably passing -- and sticking with Gana at the base of the midfield (provided that he continues to stay in position like he did on Saturday).

I'm a definite N'Zonzi fan, I just don't see how he helps us right now.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Confucius on December 07, 2017, 12:31:59 AM
The more I think about this, the less I like the idea. What is a Schneiderlin upgrade going to do for us? Playing with a positionally conservative defensive midfielder forces Gana into a box-to-box role, which he plainly isn't good at.

We'd be much better served adding someone who contributes something in attack -- preferably passing -- and sticking with Gana at the base of the midfield (provided that he continues to stay in position like he did on Saturday).

I'm a definite N'Zonzi fan, I just don't see how he helps us right now.

getting better players is always a help. You get them when they available
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 07, 2017, 01:27:27 AM
The more I think about this, the less I like the idea. What is a Schneiderlin upgrade going to do for us? Playing with a positionally conservative defensive midfielder forces Gana into a box-to-box role, which he plainly isn't good at.

We'd be much better served adding someone who contributes something in attack -- preferably passing -- and sticking with Gana at the base of the midfield (provided that he continues to stay in position like he did on Saturday).

I'm a definite N'Zonzi fan, I just don't see how he helps us right now.

Badly lacking control in the middle.

Lacking ability to break teams down is a symptom of a disfunctional midfield rather than poor attacking players. A Barkley replacement for Gana would be great...but would be easier to stomach if we had a more solid base to work off.

At the moment if you take Gana out the side we’d get overrun I think.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Juanito on December 07, 2017, 02:43:17 AM
The more I think about this, the less I like the idea. What is a Schneiderlin upgrade going to do for us? Playing with a positionally conservative defensive midfielder forces Gana into a box-to-box role, which he plainly isn't good at.

We'd be much better served adding someone who contributes something in attack -- preferably passing -- and sticking with Gana at the base of the midfield (provided that he continues to stay in position like he did on Saturday).

I'm a definite N'Zonzi fan, I just don't see how he helps us right now.

In a midfield 3 in a 4-3-3 with N’Zonzi, Gana and a box to box player, or even Sigurdsson with three forwards up top with pace, I think we look good.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Brownie on December 17, 2017, 06:04:16 AM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/everton-boss-sam-allardyce-plotting-11706354

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/667545/Sam-Allardyce-will-have-to-sacrifice-player-to-sign-Steven-Nzonzi-at-Everton-EXCLUSIVE


Title: Re: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blargins on December 17, 2017, 06:15:32 AM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/everton-boss-sam-allardyce-plotting-11706354

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/667545/Sam-Allardyce-will-have-to-sacrifice-player-to-sign-Steven-Nzonzi-at-Everton-EXCLUSIVE




Back to selling before buying again?

Although it makes sense in the midfield scheme of things. Would quite happily see Besic and McCarthy go.
Title: Re: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Brownie on December 17, 2017, 06:18:07 AM
Back to selling before buying again?

Although it makes sense in the midfield scheme of things. Would quite happily see Besic and McCarthy go.

Yeah it's got to be because we have an abundance of mf players. Barkley is off so one/two from Besic, McCarthy and Klaassen seems likely too
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Jamokachi on December 17, 2017, 06:22:12 AM
shit rags them, jeez
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Brownie on December 17, 2017, 06:27:54 AM
shit rags them, jeez

I know but I'm not putting the disclaimer that I don't believe it before every link I post
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Jamokachi on December 17, 2017, 06:29:15 AM
I know but I'm not putting the disclaimer that I don't believe it before every link I post

oh, that's a given
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Jamokachi on December 17, 2017, 06:31:00 AM
haha... the star article says we'd need to consider offers for Gylfi... oh my days lolol
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Outworlder47 on December 17, 2017, 09:52:51 AM
Back to selling before buying again?

Although it makes sense in the midfield scheme of things. Would quite happily see Besic and McCarthy go.

Have a feeling it's both FFP, and having so many players in similar positions that they couldn't all be registered for the squad. Feels like at least one midfielder will be sold in January, regardless.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blue1948 on December 17, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
Defensive midfielder. Great in the air, he's 6ft 5. Good control, and usually gets around 90% pass accuracy per season. He's not as mobile as the likes of Besic or Macarthy, bit as you said, they're pointless otherwise.
Love it not as mobile as Mcarthy well he must be in a wheelchair !
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: bluenuck on December 17, 2017, 01:18:59 PM
Don't know much about him

But he doesn't really pan out in England as a DM then goes to Spain, where pretty much every team plays an open style of play, and he starts to shine.

Radamel Falcoa comes to mind...some guys are just meant for certain leagues, and not meant for others.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 17, 2017, 05:57:10 PM
Echo saying the same
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: TheRam on December 17, 2017, 06:46:55 PM
Don't know much about him

But he doesn't really pan out in England as a DM then goes to Spain, where pretty much every team plays an open style of play, and he starts to shine.

Radamel Falcoa comes to mind...some guys are just meant for certain leagues, and not meant for others.

You're right, you don't know much about him because he was very good in the premier league hence why he moved from Stoke to Sevilla. :)
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: SANA_DR0 on December 17, 2017, 06:53:52 PM
wonder if Sevilla would swap him for Morgan Schneiderlin?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: therealdunc on December 18, 2017, 03:43:32 AM
You're right, you don't know much about him because he was very good in the premier league hence why he moved from Stoke to Sevilla. :)

Exactly, he was stokes player of the year

The only reservation with him is he is a bit of a mercenary and has chased the money all his career.

Other reservation is he is past his peak and we are signing another player on big wages who we will struggle to move on.

Danger we keep getting these journeymen good players who are not quite good enough for a top 6 side are not likely to improve any more.
We have plenty of them at the moment and Nzonzi is not going to make a great deal of difference.

Much prefer younger hungrier players OR proven top 6 quality.
Nzonzi, much like bolasie, schnederlin, Keane, Klassen, Mirallas, Lennon, Sigurdsson, etc is a good player but not top 6 quality.



Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: bluenuck on December 18, 2017, 10:18:50 AM
You're right, you don't know much about him because he was very good in the premier league hence why he moved from Stoke to Sevilla. :)

I guess stokes player of the year back then passed me by...

But hey, let's go get him now.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Hawkandro on December 18, 2017, 02:39:35 PM
Sam has said we have a 32 man first team squad which is way too big. Nothing to worry about there; just the newspapers trying to drum-up worry.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 18, 2017, 04:08:12 PM
Sam has said we have a 32 man first team squad which is way too big. Nothing to worry about there; just the newspapers trying to drum-up worry.

Even the echo?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Hawkandro on December 18, 2017, 04:41:43 PM
I would say so, yeah. We have far too many players. Some have to go.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Jamokachi on December 19, 2017, 04:22:06 AM
Even the echo?

The Echo is a rag that lives off click-bait.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: therealdunc on December 19, 2017, 01:46:52 PM
Even the echo?

The Oldham echo is awful.never read it, never use the website
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Lxxx on December 20, 2017, 06:21:55 PM
The Oldham echo is awful.never read it, never use the website

Thought it was the Oldham Chronicle?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Shogun on December 20, 2017, 06:23:46 PM
Panicked a bit and thought the N'Zogbia thread had been brought back to life then.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: therealdunc on December 20, 2017, 06:48:24 PM
Thought it was the Oldham Chronicle?
The Liverpool Echo is printed in Oldham and70% of its content comes from the main trinity mirror group offices in Manchester

A terrible newspaper
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Macca77 on December 20, 2017, 06:49:30 PM
The Liverpool Echo is printed in Oldham and70% of its content comes from the main trinity mirror group offices in Manchester

A terrible newspaper

90% of the content is about the redshite
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 20, 2017, 07:05:39 PM
Panicked a bit and thought the N'Zogbia thread had been brought back to life then.

We are lacking width like....
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: KingdingalingNL on December 23, 2017, 02:46:39 AM
Sevilla’s manager has just been sacked, maybe making this a no go???
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: therealdunc on December 23, 2017, 05:04:53 AM
Hope so
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 28, 2017, 10:22:23 PM
Few more links with N'Zonzi today. Can't help but think our midfield would be frightening with him in there.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on December 28, 2017, 10:43:59 PM
Few more links with N'Zonzi today. Can't help but think our midfield would be frightening with him in there.
Agreed, he’s a beast. More of a box-to-box than another DM. Would be an upgrade on Davies but would give the same drive and bite.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: BlueForYou on December 28, 2017, 11:55:59 PM
Would be a (very)good addition - (very)energetic

Instead of replacing Davies - alongside him?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Cereal Killer on December 29, 2017, 12:00:10 AM
Would be a (very)good addition - (very)energetic

Instead of replacing Davies - alongside him?

(no)
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 29, 2017, 12:09:34 AM
Gana N’zonzi Serri
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Lxxx on December 29, 2017, 12:10:06 AM
Nzonzi and the Turkish lad would provide height, physicality and presence down the spine. If we can offload a few to offset the cost it stands us in decent stead going into the summer window with money to spend on the extra bits of flair/quality we need.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: TheRam on December 29, 2017, 01:52:47 AM
The mail reporting this one is very much on and we want it done asap.

This will be a brilliant signing but Iam a bit worried about spending big on a 29 year old.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: BlueForYou on December 29, 2017, 02:06:34 AM
He's got seven (lucky)years on Barry!

£50m(+) is big!
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 29, 2017, 02:10:02 AM
£50m??
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: TheRam on December 29, 2017, 02:11:04 AM
He's got seven (lucky)years on Barry!

£50m(+) is big!

Don't know where you've got that figure from like.

Oh combined with the tosun fee?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: TheTone on December 29, 2017, 02:11:33 AM
Fuck me, we're staying up this year ain't we lids, is right the everton
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: gizzblue on December 29, 2017, 02:25:55 AM
Fuck me, we're staying up this year ain't we lids, is right the everton
Wouldn't be suprised if some on here think we are still in a relegation battle ...not that we ever really were ...so far before christmas.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: BlueForYou on December 29, 2017, 02:26:24 AM
N'Zonzi valued at £25m - not big for a 29 year old! £50m would be!

Some people on here suggest we should have kept Barry at 36/37 years old - makes N'Zonzi a spring chicken!
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on December 29, 2017, 02:29:08 AM
He knows the league and should be a ‘plug and play’ type player who can hit the ground running. Not an ideal age but can slot in and takes the pressure off the likes of Davies. Different to the other types of CM we have. We’ve struggled to win the midfield battle for most of the season and he should help on both sides of the ball.

Would like a couple of players ages 21-26 this window, too.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: BlueForYou on December 29, 2017, 02:30:42 AM
Jenky's one!
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: hill135 on December 29, 2017, 02:46:16 AM
is he actually good now? serious question
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Confucius on December 29, 2017, 02:46:49 AM
is he actually good now? serious question

Yes, very.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Macca77 on December 29, 2017, 02:57:29 AM
John Merro has tweeted thats its very much on

It's off lads
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Macca77 on December 29, 2017, 03:37:22 AM
https://twitter.com/WHUFC_News/status/946480770419494912
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blueski on December 29, 2017, 03:53:13 AM
N'Zonzi valued at £25m - not big for a 29 year old! £50m would be!

Some people on here suggest we should have kept Barry at 36/37 years old - makes N'Zonzi a spring chicken!
we should have, unless we were signing a younger better version which we didn't
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Lxxx on December 29, 2017, 04:36:09 AM
Getting some legs this story across the net tonight. We might have a couple more 6'+ players in our team before too long.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: toffee_scot on December 29, 2017, 06:44:23 AM
So if we are close to signing N'Zonzi, then that adds to the list of central midfield players:

Schneiderlin, Gana, McCarthy, Besic, Klaassen, Tom Davies and Baningime.

Let's just suppose Everton have a strategy for the January transfer window - does this mean we will be offloading about 2 or 3 players on this list I wonder?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Shogun on December 29, 2017, 06:46:01 AM
Uncomfortable that everyone seems in agreement this would be a good signing.

That probably hasn't happened since Schneider... nevermind.
Title: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: kramer0 on December 29, 2017, 07:27:22 AM
I don't think this would be a good signing.

Good player but not at all what we need in midfield. I'll also trot out one of my greatest hits and say that he's too old to be worth spending anything significant on.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Ross on December 29, 2017, 07:40:30 AM
Seems we can’t get enough of these midfielders who don’t create or score anything can we?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Trublue on December 29, 2017, 07:50:06 AM
I was impressed with him in the preseason friendly.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 29, 2017, 02:13:02 PM
I don't think this would be a good signing.

Good player but not at all what we need in midfield. I'll also trot out one of my greatest hits and say that he's too old to be worth spending anything significant on.

Can absolutely see where you’re coming from, but anything that removes Schneiderlin and gets a quality DM in the side ASAP is a good use of money, plus 25m euros ain’t that much.

He’s a good passing DM and a defensive-minded regista kind of player, not defence splitting passes but just pass pass pass, keep the ball and dictate. Basically what Schneiderlin should be doing.

However, it does raise that question of what the hell are we going to do with Gueye / the other midfield position...

Think rooney has made a really good case for being the 8, his quality on the ball has been evident and he’s even getting amongst the Goals (could do with more none pen Goals if possible).

Gueye better as a ball winner, but we seem intent on pushing him up (imo so he can win the ball further up the field and we can use his energy).

Hopefully Gueye / N’Zonzi is a better fit than what we have, but I can’t shake the feeling it’s going to be quite similar, and that his transfer has a SLIGHT air of Alex Song at West Ham about it..
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bluedylan on December 29, 2017, 02:26:13 PM
Good player but not thrilled about £25m on a 29 year old personally.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Juanito on December 29, 2017, 03:07:26 PM
Can absolutely see where you’re coming from, but anything that removes Schneiderlin and gets a quality DM in the side ASAP is a good use of money, plus 25m euros ain’t that much.

He’s a good passing DM and a defensive-minded regista kind of player, not defence splitting passes but just pass pass pass, keep the ball and dictate. Basically what Schneiderlin should be doing.

However, it does raise that question of what the hell are we going to do with Gueye / the other midfield position...

Think rooney has made a really good case for being the 8, his quality on the ball has been evident and he’s even getting amongst the Goals (could do with more none pen Goals if possible).

Gueye better as a ball winner, but we seem intent on pushing him up (imo so he can win the ball further up the field and we can use his energy).

Hopefully Gueye / N’Zonzi is a better fit than what we have, but I can’t shake the feeling it’s going to be quite similar, and that his transfer has a SLIGHT air of Alex Song at West Ham about it..

 4-3-3.

                   Pickford
Coleman  Holgate Keane  Baines
           N’Zonzi Gana Rooney
 Bolasie         Tusan      Sigurdsson
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 29, 2017, 03:22:16 PM
4-3-3.

                   Pickford
Coleman  Holgate Keane  Baines
           N’Zonzi Gana Rooney
 Bolasie         Tusan      Sigurdsson

Yeah probably, N’Zonzi did used to do that job as a younger man I think but I would think N’zonzi deepest midfielder Gueye pushing up.

Or

4-2-3-1

      N’zonzi Gueye

Bolassie Rooney Sig
           
           Tosun

I’m still really pissed off it hasn’t worked out for Klaassen. Should have been a good box to box fella.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: van der Meyde on December 29, 2017, 03:28:07 PM
Good player but not thrilled about £25m on a 29 year old personally.
Urgh. Having seen the struggles we've had with Howard and Distin start to repeat with Baines, Jagielka and Williams, I'd hoped the club would have be looking a bit more long term.

Bolasie, Sigurdsson, Gueye, Schneiderlin and Nzonzi will all be 30+ and past their peak in two years. Having multiple midfield players all 30+ and difficult to shift on big contracts doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: MmmBlueRamirez on December 29, 2017, 03:39:32 PM
I was impressed with him in the preseason friendly.

Yes, him and his midfield compadre we also failed to sign.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Escla on December 29, 2017, 04:10:00 PM
Urgh. Having seen the struggles we've had with Howard and Distin start to repeat with Baines, Jagielka and Williams, I'd hoped the club would have be looking a bit more long term.

Bolasie, Sigurdsson, Gueye, Schneiderlin and Nzonzi will all be 30+ and past their peak in two years. Having multiple midfield players all 30+ and difficult to shift on big contracts doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.

You need a mix of experience and youth, Gateth Barry had a great season last year aged 36 1/2, Lampard
played well into his mid thirties, Vincent Company at 31 plus the players you name will be just thirty in two years time, your hugely talented 23 year olds won’t stay with us beyond a couple of years if they are that good and we are not playing in CL, we need experienced players to get us near to qualifying.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: van der Meyde on December 29, 2017, 04:17:43 PM
You need a mix of experience and youth, Gateth Barry had a great season last year aged 36 1/2, Lampard
played well into his mid thirties, Vincent Company at 31 plus the players you name will be just thirty in two years time, your hugely talented 23 year olds won’t stay with us beyond a couple of years if they are that good and we are not playing in CL, we need experienced players to get us near to qualifying.
Don't buy this argument at all personally. If the players we have were good enough to get us to qualify for the CL then would they be playing for Everton at 28?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Escla on December 29, 2017, 04:24:13 PM
We won’t qualify for CL with kids alone, you need a few experienced heads in there to get to qualification.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Goaljira on December 29, 2017, 04:32:55 PM
Urgh. Having seen the struggles we've had with Howard and Distin start to repeat with Baines, Jagielka and Williams, I'd hoped the club would have be looking a bit more long term.

Bolasie, Sigurdsson, Gueye, Schneiderlin and Nzonzi will all be 30+ and past their peak in two years. Having multiple midfield players all 30+ and difficult to shift on big contracts doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.

Buying the 26 year old version costs you more money and you've got greater competition for.  Buying a 29 year old to play for a couple of years whilst our youngsters we've been stockpiling and developing continue to grow and develop isn't the worst strategy. 
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 29, 2017, 04:33:30 PM
If we get this guy are we still allowed to buy young players in the future if the right ones come along?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: van der Meyde on December 29, 2017, 04:36:47 PM
Buying the 26 year old version costs you more money and you've got greater competition for.  Buying a 29 year old to play for a couple of years whilst our youngsters we've been stockpiling and developing continue to grow and develop isn't the worst strategy. 
I guess buying the 23 or 24 year old version and then selling them on for a big profit is just too much hard work eh.

Better off taking the risk that our 20 year olds will develop while their gametime is restricted by the 30 year olds. :)
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Goaljira on December 29, 2017, 04:39:39 PM
I guess buying the 23 or 24 year old version and then selling them on for a big profit is just too much hard work eh.

Better off taking the risk that our 20 year olds will develop while their gametime is restricted by the 30 year olds. :)

But the 23/24 year old version still needs to develop.  Still needs to learn.  We need someone ready to go.  We're hopefully past the need to 'buy young, sell soon' model for now.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bluedylan on December 29, 2017, 05:29:16 PM
I know a lot of people don't like them but Spurs has to be the sustainable blueprint for how we want to break into the top 6.

We're never going to be able to outspend the rich clubs, so we have to find another way and aside from Leicester's freak season, Spurs have provided the only obvious alternative way to do it.

Yes Kane is a big part of that but even with him, there was nothing in his early career to suggest he was going to become the monster he's become so it's hard not to conclude that the manager is a massive part of his development.

In the main they have invested in talent in the 20-24 bracket, got a very good manager to work with them and improve them and grown the side into greater than the sum of their parts through good scouting, good recruitment and brilliant coaching.

Nzonzi is a good player but he's unlikely to improve at 29 and it's probable that he will decline a bit, and then 2/3 seasons later you probably have to replace him.

RBLeipzig are another team who do what Spurs have done. Identify the best young talents before they become big, and get them before they become £50m players.

Surely that has to be the way for us.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Ross on December 29, 2017, 05:33:12 PM
I know a lot of people don't like them but Spurs has to be the sustainable blueprint for how we want to break into the top 6.

We're never going to be able to outspend the rich clubs, so we have to find another way and aside from Leicester's freak season, Spurs have provided the only obvious alternative way to do it.

Yes Kane is a big part of that but even with him, there was nothing in his early career to suggest he was going to become the monster he's become so it's hard not to conclude that the manager is a massive part of his development.

In the main they have invested in talent in the 20-24 bracket, got a very good manager to work with them and improve them and grown the side into greater than the sum of their parts through good scouting, good recruitment and brilliant coaching.

Nzonzi is a good player but he's unlikely to improve at 29 and it's probable that he will decline a bit, and then 2/3 seasons later you probably have to replace him.

RBLeipzig are another team who do what Spurs have done. Identify the best young talents before they become big, and get them before they become £50m players.

Surely that has to be the way for us.

And the rabble next door.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Shropshire Blue on December 29, 2017, 05:41:51 PM
Have Everton fans got the patience to build for the future?
Anyone hear the moaning at W Brom at how we played?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GLewis on December 29, 2017, 05:46:07 PM
And the rabble next door.

They’ve tended to buy CL level players though just not ones that the elite clubs would want.

£30m+ for Firmino was a lot of money. Mane wasn’t exactly cheap and wouldn’t sign for us if we were an option etc. Same for Salah.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: dekko on December 29, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
N’Zonzi is an instant upgrade to Schneiderlin, and if we sell him, it won’t look so bad.
I’d say go and get him for 25mil, we’ll still get 3 maybe 4 good years from him, plenty of time for some youngsters to mature or buy a replacement. 
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Ross on December 29, 2017, 05:51:39 PM
They’ve tended to buy CL level players though just not ones that the elite clubs would want.

£30m+ for Firmino was a lot of money. Mane wasn’t exactly cheap and wouldn’t sign for us if we were an option etc. Same for Salah.

Isn’t £25m for a Seville player pretty much the equivalent?

The only thing being we’ve got a plethora of similar players it seems and he’s closer to retirement than all of them.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GLewis on December 29, 2017, 05:51:50 PM
I know a lot of people don't like them but Spurs has to be the sustainable blueprint for how we want to break into the top 6.

We're never going to be able to outspend the rich clubs, so we have to find another way and aside from Leicester's freak season, Spurs have provided the only obvious alternative way to do it.

Yes Kane is a big part of that but even with him, there was nothing in his early career to suggest he was going to become the monster he's become so it's hard not to conclude that the manager is a massive part of his development.

In the main they have invested in talent in the 20-24 bracket, got a very good manager to work with them and improve them and grown the side into greater than the sum of their parts through good scouting, good recruitment and brilliant coaching.

Nzonzi is a good player but he's unlikely to improve at 29 and it's probable that he will decline a bit, and then 2/3 seasons later you probably have to replace him.

RBLeipzig are another team who do what Spurs have done. Identify the best young talents before they become big, and get them before they become £50m players.

Surely that has to be the way for us.

It’ll be interesting to see what they’re like if / when Pochettino goes.

Could be that they struck lucky with the coach rather than a sustainable model for consistent challenges etc.

Leipzig is interesting as they clearly spend decent amounts otherwise most of the rest of the country wouldn’t hate them.

It’s also more fluid in Germany below Bayern.

Having said all that I agree with the general premise.

But we could point to Pickford, Keane, Klaassen and Sandro as an attempt this summer to sign the spine of the team with player who are sub 24.

We’ve got a distance to catch up the top 6 so, given that we know all young players are gambles, we also need some players who will play exactly how you think / want them to.

Unfortunately players like Schneiderlin haven’t provided that guarantee of consistency so we’d still be looking for a midfielder for example.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GLewis on December 29, 2017, 05:55:23 PM
Isn’t £25m for a Seville player pretty much the equivalent?

The only thing being we’ve got a plethora of similar players it seems and he’s closer than retirement than them all.

Re him specifically see my post above with regards to Schneiderlin.

I do think we should be after some Lukaku / Fellaini type signings too though.

Of course re Spurs (or any of the other top teams) if we’d been in that bracket then we probably would have had better players with Stones, Lukaku etc and therefore selling them doesn’t leave massive gaps and is easier to find replacements.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 29, 2017, 06:05:21 PM
I know a lot of people don't like them but Spurs has to be the sustainable blueprint for how we want to break into the top 6.

We're never going to be able to outspend the rich clubs, so we have to find another way and aside from Leicester's freak season, Spurs have provided the only obvious alternative way to do it.

Yes Kane is a big part of that but even with him, there was nothing in his early career to suggest he was going to become the monster he's become so it's hard not to conclude that the manager is a massive part of his development.

In the main they have invested in talent in the 20-24 bracket, got a very good manager to work with them and improve them and grown the side into greater than the sum of their parts through good scouting, good recruitment and brilliant coaching.

Nzonzi is a good player but he's unlikely to improve at 29 and it's probable that he will decline a bit, and then 2/3 seasons later you probably have to replace him.

RBLeipzig are another team who do what Spurs have done. Identify the best young talents before they become big, and get them before they become £50m players.

Surely that has to be the way for us.

At the moment we're playing at the moment we're regularly playing 4/5 teenagers in probably one of the more physical leagues in the world. Our recruitment strategy has mainly been based on necessity. I think the influx of cash to the youth teams has show what our blueprint is going to be, we're obviously thinking long term, but the short term is important too.

Until we can become a more attractive proposition to highly rated 23/24 year olds, we have to aim a bit lower, either in terms of shelf life, or players who might not be completely ready to be starting week in week out. Spurs are really in a good position now, but they have always been able to attract a higher calibre of player, it's not just recently. Their recent purple patch can largely be attributed to an academy players and one who's now outscoring Messi. Let's not downplay how much Kane is contributing to their performances. The way their wage structure is could certainly spell for disaster too.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Danny on December 29, 2017, 06:06:14 PM
We need he height, he’s 6ft4 and his all round play was great when he was at Stoke and Blackburn never mind after years for Sevilla.

We should be all over this.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Ross on December 29, 2017, 06:09:42 PM
Re him specifically see my post above with regards to Schneiderlin.

I do think we should be after some Lukaku / Fellaini type signings too though.

Of course re Spurs (or any of the other top teams) if we’d been in that bracket then we probably would have had better players with Stones, Lukaku etc and therefore selling them doesn’t leave massive gaps and is easier to find replacements.

The general point is you don’t need to be buying ageing (or “experienced”) players to successfully qualify for the big event. There’s at least two clubs who’ve competed with more affluent clubs and bridged the divide, and that’s just in this league.

Paying £25m for a 29 year old who’s not much of an improvement on our 28 year old we’ve not long bought for £25m and will have trouble moving on doesn’t sound like a great business plan that’s sustainable. Especially when there’s urgent surgery required elsewhere in the squad.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bluedylan on December 29, 2017, 06:17:37 PM
At the moment we're playing at the moment we're regularly playing 4/5 teenagers in probably one of the more physical leagues in the world. Our recruitment strategy has mainly been based on necessity. I think the influx of cash to the youth teams has show what our blueprint is going to be, we're obviously thinking long term, but the short term is important too.

Until we can become a more attractive proposition to highly rated 23/24 year olds, we have to aim a bit lower, either in terms of shelf life, or players who might not be completely ready to be starting week in week out. Spurs are really in a good position now, but they have always been able to attract a higher calibre of player, it's not just recently. Their recent purple patch can largely be attributed to an academy players and one who's now outscoring Messi. Let's not downplay how much Kane is contributing to their performances. The way their wage structure is could certainly spell for disaster too.

Remember Moshiri's 'small window'? Well that's closing. We're falling further and further behind and another two seasons of stop gap signings will only exacerbate that. Time to put some proper long term structure in place (for me anyway). We'll never catch up without a proper model that is sustainable and considered.
Title: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: ally2 on December 29, 2017, 06:37:06 PM
A sustainable model is great but if there are clear deficiencies in the team (as determined by the management anyway) that can be immediately addressed by signing the right player then that should be done, even if they're older than you'd like. It could be for example that such a player could fill the gaps needed to allow some of our younger players to flourish in certain areas of their game.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: ally2 on December 29, 2017, 06:46:55 PM
As for spurs, I'm not having them as a model. Yes they got it right in the end, but it was probably more luck than judgement, and it took them 20 years. Went through managers from arch enemy ultimate pragmatist George Graham, to euro punt Christian Gross, to cockney wide boy 'Arry Redknapp to euro hipster AVB to true football man Captain Bellend. They usually went for younger players but hit the jackpots in Bale and Kane. They were ready to sell Bale. We were in for Naughton. And they've got the London pull.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 29, 2017, 06:56:00 PM
A sustainable model is great but if there are clear deficiencies in the team (as determined by the management anyway) that can be immediately addressed by signing the right player then that should be done, even if they're older than you'd like. It could be for example that such a player could fill the gaps needed to allow some of our younger players to flourish in certain areas of their game.

Perfect example in Barry and Distin. Passed their prime but class is usually something that never goes away.

It's not like we're not signing younger players. Keane, Pickford, Klaassen, Tosun. Some of them have just been shit lol. In hindsight I'd prefer a 32 year old Barry than a 24 year old Klaassen
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bluedylan on December 29, 2017, 06:58:37 PM
As for spurs, I'm not having them as a model. Yes they got it right in the end, but it was probably more luck than judgement, and it took them 20 years. Went through managers from arch enemy ultimate pragmatist George Graham, to euro punt Christian Gross, to cockney wide boy 'Arry Redknapp to euro hipster AVB to true football man Captain Bellend. They usually went for younger players but hit the jackpots in Bale and Kane. They were ready to sell Bale. We were in for Naughton. And they've got the London pull.

Obviously I'm not talking about Spurs 20 years ago, as you well know. I'm talking about them in the last few years.

Players signed that are well before their peak, who will improve and grow massively in value. Lloris (£12m), Dembele (£15m), Vertonghen (£10m), Eriksen (£11m), Alli (£5m), Dier (£4m), Alderweireld (£11.5m), Trippier (£3.5m), Wanyama (£11m), Walker (£3m), Rose (£1m).

None of those players were at big clubs that would be out of our reach. Obviously prices have inflated so we're not going to be getting anyone for £1m but that model has worked and, along with exceptional management and coaching, has transformed that club from an also ran to a team that can get 86 points in a Prem season.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blue slug on December 29, 2017, 07:30:04 PM
Obviously I'm not talking about Spurs 20 years ago, as you well know. I'm talking about them in the last few years.

Players signed that are well before their peak, who will improve and grow massively in value. Lloris (£12m), Dembele (£15m), Vertonghen (£10m), Eriksen (£11m), Alli (£5m), Dier (£4m), Alderweireld (£11.5m), Trippier (£3.5m), Wanyama (£11m), Walker (£3m), Rose (£1m).

None of those players were at big clubs that would be out of our reach. Obviously prices have inflated so we're not going to be getting anyone for £1m but that model has worked and, along with exceptional management and coaching, has transformed that club from an also ran to a team that can get 86 points in a Prem season.

Bloody hell I didn’t realise some of those players were so cheap, great business by the wankers
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Goaljira on December 29, 2017, 07:47:31 PM
Obviously I'm not talking about Spurs 20 years ago, as you well know. I'm talking about them in the last few years.

Players signed that are well before their peak, who will improve and grow massively in value. Lloris (£12m), Dembele (£15m), Vertonghen (£10m), Eriksen (£11m), Alli (£5m), Dier (£4m), Alderweireld (£11.5m), Trippier (£3.5m), Wanyama (£11m), Walker (£3m), Rose (£1m).

None of those players were at big clubs that would be out of our reach. Obviously prices have inflated so we're not going to be getting anyone for £1m but that model has worked and, along with exceptional management and coaching, has transformed that club from an also ran to a team that can get 86 points in a Prem season.

Its nothing groundbreaking though.  Its the same as we've done with Baines, Jagielka, Lescott, Coleman, Stones, Lukaku, Arteta, Cahill, etc who all were bought and saw their values rise exponentially whilst with us - some we sold, some we kept too long and lost the value on.  And for every one you've listed above there will be 2 that haven't worked out, the same as we've had.  You've got your Lamela's, Soldado's, N'Jie's, Townsend's, Yedlin's, Paulinho's, Lewis Holtby's, etc.

In Pickford, Holgate, Keane, Gueye, Lookman, DCL, we've got young players bought before their prime who's value we hope will continue to rise.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blargins on December 29, 2017, 07:52:35 PM
Bloody hell I didn’t realise some of those players were so cheap, great business by the wankers

Those prices today would probably similar to what we've paid for our players. Lloris at 12 million is way more than we paid for Pickford in comparison.

Alli and Lookman were about the same price.

They just struck gold that the players they have are true team players and work very well together.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GLewis on December 29, 2017, 08:00:29 PM
The general point is you don’t need to be buying ageing (or “experienced”) players to successfully qualify for the big event. There’s at least two clubs who’ve competed with more affluent clubs and bridged the divide, and that’s just in this league.

Paying £25m for a 29 year old who’s not much of an improvement on our 28 year old we’ve not long bought for £25m and will have trouble moving on doesn’t sound like a great business plan that’s sustainable. Especially when there’s urgent surgery required elsewhere in the squad.

Ignoring the squad necessity argument which has a point (unless players are leaving); both Spurs and L’pool were in much stronger positions than us.

The only gatecrashers from way outside that group were city who did buy more experienced players for big money.

As I said I don’t think that we shouldn’t be buying some younger players but equally we have.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bluedylan on December 29, 2017, 08:26:53 PM
Its nothing groundbreaking though.  Its the same as we've done with Baines, Jagielka, Lescott, Coleman, Stones, Lukaku, Arteta, Cahill, etc who all were bought and saw their values rise exponentially whilst with us - some we sold, some we kept too long and lost the value on.  And for every one you've listed above there will be 2 that haven't worked out, the same as we've had.  You've got your Lamela's, Soldado's, N'Jie's, Townsend's, Yedlin's, Paulinho's, Lewis Holtby's, etc.

In Pickford, Holgate, Keane, Gueye, Lookman, DCL, we've got young players bought before their prime who's value we hope will continue to rise.

Yep, you're right to point to Moyes' recruitment as an example of someone else doing similar. Agreed. I don't think I said it was groundbreaking or unique. I'm saying it's effective, if done well, and that's what we need to do, rather than stop gaps and short term measures.

And no you won't get them all right (Kroldrup) but that still shouldn't stop you doing it.

Gana's a bit older but some of the other players you point to, yes, good examples that we are trying to bring youth in. Let's continue with that and do it better.

My fear, and it's an obvious one, is that Allardyce plugs a few holes with short term type buys, he leaves in the summer or next summer, and then we've got another mishmash of different managers' players than will need moving on for the next squad rebuild.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: van der Meyde on December 29, 2017, 09:58:21 PM
I don't think the consequences of having plenty of older players on long term contracts are being fully appreciated here.

Let's use the richest club in the league as an example of why having lots of older players in the same position is a problem.

Full back was a bit of a problem position for them. They had Zabaleta, Sagna, Clichy and Kolarov all on massive contracts until this summer. All decent players, all broadly good enough to play in the Premier League. None of them good enough for where they wanted to be.

Now why didn't City replace them earlier? Well, even for City it was financially difficult to do that. The players were on massive contracts, they weren't going to go to another club to earn less.

If ages and wages are a problem for Manchester City, as they were for Chelsea too, they're going to be a problem for Everton. When people say that there's nothing stopping us going out and buying younger players too, well I'm afraid there is. There are squad size and wage bill restrictions. As we build our first 11 and squad, we'll have more pressing positions - we already have them at left back, up front and on the wing. We're not going to buy those younger defensive mids because it won't be the most pressing position.

If we sell one of Gueye or Schneiderlin, then you can make an argument for bringing in Nzonzi, sure. If we don't though, with the wages they'll be on, they'll be here until they're 32, 33+. I don't underestimate the value of having experienced players, but - Nzonzi aside maybe - it's already fairly well established that the players we have aren't actually good enough for the level we aspire to.

We want to break into the Champions League places. If our older players aren't good enough for that level at 28 - and generally they aren't - they're not going to be good enough when they're 32.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blue slug on December 29, 2017, 10:16:30 PM
Those prices today would probably similar to what we've paid for our players. Lloris at 12 million is way more than we paid for Pickford in comparison.

Alli and Lookman were about the same price.

They just struck gold that the players they have are true team players and work very well together.

I’d have no problem paying over 25m each for all those players, far better quality than we have bought in
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Lxxx on December 29, 2017, 10:35:11 PM
I do wonder if Walsh has any kind of blueprint he's working to or if he's just trying to save his job by appeasing successive managers and hoping it works out. Since he's joined there hasn't been a clearly definable model he's tried to implement, his first summer was a mishmash of Stekelenburg, Williams, Bolasie and Gueye. Following January was Schneiderlin and Lookman and enough has been written about the summer. We're turning into a squad of players who are past their best and players a long way from reaching their best, which isn't really conducive to getting to where Moshiri states we want to be, in the timeframe he wants it.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: blargins on December 29, 2017, 10:35:56 PM
I’d have no problem paying over 25m each for all those players, far better quality than we have bought in

Me neither. But at the time, they didn't know they would be such successes just as we didn't know many of what we've brought in wouldn't be.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 29, 2017, 10:36:00 PM
I know a lot of people don't like them but Spurs has to be the sustainable blueprint for how we want to break into the top 6.

We're never going to be able to outspend the rich clubs, so we have to find another way and aside from Leicester's freak season, Spurs have provided the only obvious alternative way to do it.

Yes Kane is a big part of that but even with him, there was nothing in his early career to suggest he was going to become the monster he's become so it's hard not to conclude that the manager is a massive part of his development.

In the main they have invested in talent in the 20-24 bracket, got a very good manager to work with them and improve them and grown the side into greater than the sum of their parts through good scouting, good recruitment and brilliant coaching.

Nzonzi is a good player but he's unlikely to improve at 29 and it's probable that he will decline a bit, and then 2/3 seasons later you probably have to replace him.

RBLeipzig are another team who do what Spurs have done. Identify the best young talents before they become big, and get them before they become £50m players.

Surely that has to be the way for us.

We are trying this I think, but with the odd outlier, as the shite and spurs do also.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 29, 2017, 11:15:45 PM
Up for this one. Morgan has shit the bed, a player we want d to be the lynchpin in the centre of the pitch for the next few years. So we’re going out and buying a dead cert that will be the lynchpin for the next few years. These dead certs cost good money.

We’ve got plenty of youth coming through, I’d rather we concentrated on these guys rather than bringing in someone aged 23/24 for circa £20m, that’s 4yrs older than them and causing way more damage to their progression than N’Zonzi at 29 costing £25m.

We have to protect the short term as we position ourselves for the long term.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on December 29, 2017, 11:22:30 PM
The general point is you don't need to be buying ageing (or "experienced”) players to successfully qualify for the big event. There's at least two clubs who've competed with more affluent clubs and bridged the divide, and that's just in this league.

Paying £25m for a 29 year old who's not much of an improvement on our 28 year old we've not long bought for £25m and will have trouble moving on doesn't sound like a great business plan that's sustainable. Especially when there's urgent surgery required elsewhere in the squad.
He’s not going to replace Schneiderlein, he’s a box-to-box player (as Sam said in his presser). He’ll play instead of Davies and he’ll be a massive upgrade.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Ross on December 29, 2017, 11:26:37 PM
He’s not going to replace Schneiderlein, he’s a box-to-box player (as Sam said in his presser). He’ll play instead of Davies and he’ll be a massive upgrade.

A box to box midfielder with about 8 goals in 300 games?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 29, 2017, 11:28:49 PM
We are trying this I think, but with the odd outlier, as the shite and spurs do also.

Also we are worse at identifying players than those teams so our results have been poor.

Have a look at @reverse_ball on twitter, good insight on transfers from Liverpool perspective. Picking up proven sub/peak talent from top leagues (firmino, Mane, Salah) before that some major youth success (coutinho, Sterling, sturridge)

They have also has a strategy of non top league talent which looks a bit more like us atm (Lookman, Adeniran, Henry, Tosun) during which time they got assaidi, boring, Asos’s, markovic, origi...so you can see what we’re doing is probably even more risky, given Liverpool’s general successful transfers.

When you buy ‘risks’ at Sub peak ages from non top 5 leagues they are just more than likely going to die on their arse.

When you spend big on attacking talent and supplement with intelligent purchases you reap rewards.

We’re quite bad at both.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on December 29, 2017, 11:43:18 PM
A sustainable model is great but if there are clear deficiencies in the team (as determined by the management anyway) that can be immediately addressed by signing the right player then that should be done, even if they're older than you'd like. It could be for example that such a player could fill the gaps needed to allow some of our younger players to flourish in certain areas of their game.
Agree. We’ve struggled to win the midfield battle all season. I think N’zonzi will give us that physical presence and passing ability to dominate teams and give us a platform to play better football.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GLewis on December 29, 2017, 11:44:32 PM
Also we are worse at identifying players than those teams so our results have been poor.

Have a look at @reverse_ball on twitter, good insight on transfers from Liverpool perspective. Picking up proven sub/peak talent from top leagues (firmino, Mane, Salah) before that some major youth success (coutinho, Sterling, sturridge)

They have also has a strategy of non top league talent which looks a bit more like us atm (Lookman, Adeniran, Henry, Tosun) during which time they got assaidi, boring, Asos’s, markovic, origi...so you can see what we’re doing is probably even more risky, given Liverpool’s general successful transfers.

When you buy ‘risks’ at Sub peak ages from non top 5 leagues they are just more than likely going to die on their arse.

When you spend big on attacking talent and supplement with intelligent purchases you reap rewards.

We’re quite bad at both.


Yes I’d say it’s the players we’ve bought rather than the type.

I don’t think we’d get Firmino, Salah, Mane (the same way they didn’t get Willian, Sanchez etc).

If we’re moving down a level from that type of player we’re signing either worse players from those league or players from worse leagues which are more risky.

But we’ve signed a good number of players 24 and under.

Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 30, 2017, 12:04:12 AM
Yes I’d say it’s the players we’ve bought rather than the type.

I don’t think we’d get Firmino, Salah, Mane (the same way they didn’t get Willian, Sanchez etc).

If we’re moving down a level from that type of player we’re signing either worse players from those league or players from worse leagues which are more risky.

But we’ve signed a good number of players 24 and under.



Yeah I thought that while writing tbh.

I suppose the Adeniran’s and Lookmans of this world could be seen as the Sterling’s and Delle Alli’s.

Guess it comes down to what you say, we can’t buy those players that have proven themselves and more often than not we won’t get the undiscovered talent without superior scouting or superior wage offerings and we generally won’t have either.

The expensive gambles we take - N’Zonzi, Sigurdsson, Tosun - must be a case of, well we’re not going to get the ones we want, and we have a pressing need for a player. Sigurdsson arguably the best playmaker outside the top 6 that we could feasibly get, N’Zonzi the manager’s fancy, and Tosun is maybe walshy’s work in an unfancied League.

I know what bluedylan is saying and I do agree with the constant criticisms of evertons scouting within the data community, but I can’t help but hope for the best.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Bluedylan on December 30, 2017, 12:08:20 AM
So if better recruitment isn't the answer what is, because we won't have the money to compete, and we don't have a manager who is a tactical genius or a coaching genius?

7th ever more.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: TheRam on December 30, 2017, 12:13:30 AM
He’s not going to replace Schneiderlein, he’s a box-to-box player (as Sam said in his presser). He’ll play instead of Davies and he’ll be a massive upgrade.

Are you sure you're not confusing him with anyone here because he's a deep lying playmaker, not box to box at all.

He might have been at Blackburn and Stoke but at Sevilla he's made his name as a DM baller.

Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on December 30, 2017, 12:16:26 AM
He’s not going to replace Schneiderlein, he’s a box-to-box player (as Sam said in his presser). He’ll play instead of Davies and he’ll be a massive upgrade.

When he played at Goodison, he sat back and dictated the play, spreading left or right, and winning pretty much everything in the air. Deffo not going to be box to box.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Lxxx on December 30, 2017, 12:17:29 AM
So if better recruitment isn't the answer what is, because we won't have the money to compete, and we don't have a manager who is a tactical genius or a coaching genius?

7th ever more.

It's looking more and more that way. Unless we really do start with a new blueprint and try and build what Atletico clearly set out to build, or a Sevilla. With a board, a DoF, a manager and staff who are all working towards one vision, a vision which doesn't change if a manager goes or a star striker, as the next one has already been identified on a shortlist prior to such an event. 
We always seem to be firefighting and when our managers change it's always one extreme to the next. From a Martinez to a Koeman to an Allardyce, all with different ideas and all requiring different things from their players, or different players.

Or maybe the above just isn't really feasible. Who knows.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GLewis on December 30, 2017, 12:22:18 AM
So if better recruitment isn't the answer what is, because we won't have the money to compete, and we don't have a manager who is a tactical genius or a coaching genius?

7th ever more.

Well we won’t have the same players, manager, DoF, scouts for ever so stars aligning etc...

We do need better recruitment but is that on an individual basis (eg Dele Alli instead of Lookman; Vertongen instead of Mori) or is it systematic?

Or is it finding an alchemist who will improve whatever he’s been given thereby making transfers look good?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: GLewis on December 30, 2017, 12:24:56 AM
It's looking more and more that way. Unless we really do start with a new blueprint and try and build what Atletico clearly set out to build, or a Sevilla. With a board, a DoF, a manager and staff who are all working towards one vision, a vision which doesn't change if a manager goes or a star striker, as the next one has already been identified on a shortlist prior to such an event. 
We always seem to be firefighting and when our managers change it's always one extreme to the next. From a Martinez to a Koeman to an Allardyce, all with different ideas and all requiring different things from their players, or different players.

Or maybe the above just isn't really feasible. Who knows.

I wouldn’t say Allardyce is miles away from Koeman in approach.

We’ve only had the DoF approach for two managers in that Moyes / RM were “do it all managers” so I’d say this transition is relatively consistent.

Eg they’d both want big(ish) strikers who people can play off.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Rodenplav64 on December 30, 2017, 12:37:00 AM
Davies has made more effort and arguably had more impact in every game than Schneiderlin . It seems to me that every time we sign someone shite we use one of our own ( to coin a phrase ) to blame . As for Lookman the lad has loads to offer but hasn't had the environment to learn . No way should he be written off just yet . As for N'Zonzi , I can't really comment on him other than to say I wouldn't of fancied the one who was at Blackburn or Stoke but if we sign him then at least it will be because the Manager fancies him to do a job in a set system . Hopefully no one on this fucking planet classes him as a No10 .
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Lxxx on December 30, 2017, 12:41:09 AM
I wouldn’t say Allardyce is miles away from Koeman in approach.

We’ve only had the DoF approach for two managers in that Moyes / RM were “do it all managers” so I’d say this transition is relatively consistent.

Eg they’d both want big(ish) strikers who people can play off.

Point taken. My post should have really read from a Moyes to a Martinez to a Koeman, which is a bit like a pendulum in terms of their approaches. I'm not sure where we are at the minute though, is Allardyce a short term appointment in the mind of Moshiri, is he hedging his bets with an 18 month contract but if he impresses does he feel duty bound to keep him on to see where it goes... I'm not sure we have a plan at the moment from top down.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 30, 2017, 01:17:13 AM
So if better recruitment isn't the answer what is, because we won't have the money to compete, and we don't have a manager who is a tactical genius or a coaching genius?

7th ever more.

I try not to think about it because I end up coming back to - what’s the fucking point
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: kramer0 on December 30, 2017, 02:02:08 AM
We do have the option to hire a better director of football and manager.

With the right people in charge, there’s no reason why we can’t challenge the top 6 and contend for the Europa League and domestic cups.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Waltzer on December 30, 2017, 03:09:52 AM


We do have the option to hire a better director of football and manager.

With the right people in charge, there's no reason why we can't challenge the top 6 and contend for the Europa League and domestic cups.

I completely agree, I think moshiri just wanted to go down this route and I don't know how much due diligence was done on ensuring we got the right people in as opposed to the right name.
It's not easy and I don't know who or what is the answer?

 I'm actually intrigued to see how Barnsley get on as their owners have a clear vision to success and are doing well at Nice, vision is what we lack imo
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: TheRam on December 30, 2017, 03:32:03 AM

I completely agree, I think moshiri just wanted to go down this route and I don't know how much due diligence was done on ensuring we got the right people in as opposed to the right name.
It's not easy and I don't know who or what is the answer?

 I'm actually intrigued to see how Barnsley get on as their owners have a clear vision to success and are doing well at Nice, vision is what we lack imo

I'd love us to go moneyball one day.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Shropshire Blue on December 30, 2017, 04:23:18 AM
Having a vision doesn't mean mistakes are not made along the way.
I'm no expert but the more time passes the more I think the flaw in the plan was Koeman.
None of us know the internal politics, who influences what, who buys into what and like him or not we are into a new era with Big Sam. I only see what we all see, no 'itk' for me, but so far he seems like a breath of fresh air. News conferences and after match interviews are the best around. Humour, facts, opinions and a distinct lack of bullshit. Just perhaps that wind of change is blowing around the training pitches and offices of Finch Farm and Goodison.
Let's cut them all some slack - they are all professionals, all recruited on past achievements and therefore have something to contribute.
We might just be seeing the rebuilding job let's not wreck it all through impatience
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: bluenuck on December 30, 2017, 10:43:53 AM
I'd love us to go moneyball one day.

Don't count on it.

It's almost impossible in non North American sports. There's no relegation in North American sports. It's a completely different landscape on how you build your teams. There's also salary caps over here.

And by the way. The Oakland A's haven't won anything of significance in over 20 years.



Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: brap2 on December 30, 2017, 05:42:26 PM
Don't count on it.

It's almost impossible in non North American sports. There's no relegation in North American sports. It's a completely different landscape on how you build your teams. There's also salary caps over here.

And by the way. The Oakland A's haven't won anything of significance in over 20 years.





The gains in football from what I can see are in set pieces and recruitment.

I’d actually be fairly confident with sam hat if you got the guy in who worked with midjlland and said - he reckons he can get you 5 more Goals a year from set pieces, sam would be receptive.

It’s the recruitment bit that worries me because we have a set up that we’d have to tear down and start again, and I think we’re still held back by the scouts and agents and managers and directors who alll want to put their oar in, rather than a clear directive and data driven identification of talents.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: kramer0 on December 30, 2017, 08:41:33 PM
Don't count on it.

It's almost impossible in non North American sports. There's no relegation in North American sports. It's a completely different landscape on how you build your teams. There's also salary caps over here.

And by the way. The Oakland A's haven't won anything of significance in over 20 years.

I disagree completely.

There are plenty of market inefficiencies to be exploited in football, given the sheer number of players and leagues worldwide. The problem is that clubs are married to getting player recommendations from agents and "proper football men" and don't want to do the relatively easy work of hiring a bunch of football nerds to mine the data (or do video scouting for leagues that don't have reliable data) to find better transfer targets. There's a good reason why a club like Brentford, with a relegation budget by Championship standards, finishes comfortably mid-table every year while clubs with much greater resources finish below them. Edges are there for clubs who care to look.

In the major North American sports, especially baseball, teams control all of the major talent from the moment they become professionals. Analytics have taken off in these sports out of necessity. Talent acquisition is much more restricted (you can't just go out and buy whoever you want, whenever you want) and mistakes hurt a lot more, so teams need better methods for determining who's actually good. I think one of the reasons football has been so slow in adopting analytics is because clubs can always fix their mistakes with a sale (goodbye, bad contract) and another transfer (hello, fresh face), however wasteful that is. If an NBA team signs a bad player for a lot of money, they're usually stuck with his contract until it expires. So most (all?) NBA teams now have a dedicated analytics department to minimize these sorts of mistakes. Given the crazy wages being paid in the PL and the fact that it's getting harder and harder to shift players out, we would be wise to heed their example.

As for the A's... the core principles of their approach have been appropriated by every other team in baseball, including teams with a lot more money, so no surprise that they haven't been winning. Edges only exist for as long as you're one of a few (or better yet, the only one) exploiting them. Which is one of the many reasons why I'm keen to see Everton ditch the reliance on "proper football men" and move on to a more efficient mix of analytics and traditional/video scouting.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Martip on January 06, 2018, 04:01:29 AM
Him in the side tonight instead of Morgan may have made a big difference.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on January 06, 2018, 04:03:18 AM
Him in the side tonight instead of Morgan may have made a big difference.

So would Messi
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: kramer0 on January 06, 2018, 04:06:39 AM
Should not be a priority over someone who can actually pass forward and create chances.

We need Banega, not N'Zonzi.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Martip on January 06, 2018, 04:29:19 AM
So would Messi
Let's put in a cheeky bid then ?
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: hannu on January 06, 2018, 04:30:08 AM
Should not be a priority over someone who can actually pass forward and create chances.

We need Banega, not N'Zonzi.

how many years have we been on about Banega, almost as long as Juan Román Riquelme
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Martip on January 06, 2018, 04:32:10 AM
how many years have we been on about Banega, almost as long as Juan Román Riquelme
Dont worry we 've got klassen
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: kramer0 on January 06, 2018, 04:33:13 AM
how many years have we been on about Banega, almost as long as Juan Román Riquelme

I don't actually want Banega. Just someone who does Banega things on the ball.

He plays in the same team as N'Zonzi so he was the natural example to use.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: penguinofdoom1878 on January 06, 2018, 04:42:24 AM
have Milan started their fire sale yet, Bonaventura would be preferable to N'Zonzie

Plus losing my mind Javier Pastore too
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: mikey_blue on January 06, 2018, 04:47:43 AM
have Milan started their fire sale yet, Bonaventura would be preferable to N'Zonzie

Plus losing my mind Javier Pastore too

A fit Pastore would be amazing. PSG stockpiling players at its finest there.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: bluenuck on January 06, 2018, 04:50:07 AM
As for the A's... the core principles of their approach have been appropriated by every other team in baseball, including teams with a lot more money, so no surprise that they haven't been winning. Edges only exist for as long as you're one of a few (or better yet, the only one) exploiting them. Which is one of the many reasons why I'm keen to see Everton ditch the reliance on "proper football men" and move on to a more efficient mix of analytics and traditional/video scouting.

Even when they were the only ones exploiting them they weren't really winning anything though. Because other teams could spend. Look, Money Balls a great movie and all, and Bill James' work works wonders in the game of Baseball. I'm a huge fan of it. But I think analytical stats are really overrated in other team sports. It matters who plays with who, and where players play, and what systems players play in in other team sports(Take Keane for example). Baseball is an individualist team sport. To an extent The numbers are the numbers no matter where the player plays.

IMO If you want to build a whole team around analytics over in Europe(especially the PL) you run the risk of being relegated to lower divisions. Especially when you're in the top flight of the country where teams spend big.

As I said before, it's possible to do so in NA sports as there's no risk to relegation. There's actually rewards to coming last.

It's also possible to do it in the Championship and finish mid table... I get what you're saying with the limited budget and all, but not really a ringing endorsement.  ;)

Saying all that, I definitely agree we need to start getting more bang for our buck when we buy, and we need to find some unknowns on the cheap. If that means bringing in some nerdy analytics kids then I'm fine with that. The more people helping the better. I also believe, even more, we need to start building a team through the transfer market and not just arbitrarily buying players that we think are good.

Honestly, i think we should be looking to the bundesliga for our talent.

Geiger, cuisance, havertz, Arne maier, etc. etc.


Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: kramer0 on January 06, 2018, 10:34:57 PM
Even when they were the only ones exploiting them they weren't really winning anything though.

Okay, but they were consistently one of the eight best teams in a league of 30. In 2002, they finished with the second best record (possibly tied for first, depending on the outcome of a game the Yankees never had to play) with a bottom three salary. Not bad.

And what happens when you pair analytics with genuine resources (which Everton have, by the way)? The Red Sox and Cubs each won their first championships in over 100 years with that approach.

Quote
But I think analytical stats are really overrated in other team sports.

Proven effective in the NBA as well. Teams like the Rockets and Warriors have changed the way basketball is played by focusing on the most valuable shots in the game (at the rim, free throws, three pointers). It took an analytic argument/approach to get there but now almost everybody is doing it (or trying). And the triers will probably fail because they're behind the curve.

Quote
It matters who plays with who, and where players play, and what systems players play in in other team sports(Take Keane for example).

I agree 100%. And profiling players/teams through data analysis is a much more efficient way to create this context. The eye test matters but numbers can watch a lot more games than scouts.

Quote
IMO If you want to build a whole team around analytics over in Europe(especially the PL) you run the risk of being relegated to lower divisions. Especially when you're in the top flight of the country where teams spend big.

As I said before, it's possible to do so in NA sports as there's no risk to relegation. There's actually rewards to coming last.

I don't see this as an argument against my point. I'm arguing that we should be using analytics to produce better targets and/or verify that players we like are actually worth the money we spend on them. Not that we should adapt our strategy to only taking ultra-cheap punts on players with interesting numbers.

Example. Someone who produces football analytics content for free wrote these this summer:

https://differentgame.wordpress.com/2017/06/12/the-data-scout-gylfi-sigurdsson-v-ross-barkley-part-one/ (https://differentgame.wordpress.com/2017/06/12/the-data-scout-gylfi-sigurdsson-v-ross-barkley-part-one/)

https://differentgame.wordpress.com/2017/07/04/the-data-scout-sandro-ramirez/ (https://differentgame.wordpress.com/2017/07/04/the-data-scout-sandro-ramirez/)

We pay our director of football and (probably) scouts good money to evaluate players and decide who's worth signing. It's not great when someone on the internet picks out the issues with said signings so easily. We could have used that £50m in fees and over £200k a week in wages on a better class of player, or even just players who were a better fit, if the club really cared about the analytics POV.

We lack the knowledge, not the money to back it. Relegation is more likely if we keep spending our money like we have than if we get smarter about how we use it.

Quote
It's also possible to do it in the Championship and finish mid table... I get what you're saying with the limited budget and all, but not really a ringing endorsement.  ;)

I see the sly wink so I know you understand my original point but it really is an endorsement. They have League One resources but are consistently closer to the playoff places than relegation. Clubs of a similar stature come up to the Championship every season and get slapped straight back down.

It's not as well documented but Brighton care about analytics as well and they have a real chance of staying up this season with relatively little in the way of resources. They also nabbed Pascal Groß for a small fraction of what we paid for Sigurdsson and are getting more or less the same production.

And I think it's complete nonsense to expect analytically-minded teams to conquer every competition they're in because they're smarter. It's not about that. It's about being better than your resources. We have the 6th or 7th highest wage bill in the league and top 20 wage bill in European football. Imagine getting something extra out of that. Now we're a consistent contender for the domestic cups and Europa League, with a chance to crack the CL if one of the bigger clubs falters. Sounds great to me.

Quote
Saying all that, I definitely agree we need to start getting more bang for our buck when we buy, and we need to find some unknowns on the cheap. If that means bringing in some nerdy analytics kids then I'm fine with that.

I also believe, even more, we need to start building a team through the transfer market and not just arbitrarily buying players that we think are good.

100% agreement here. And yes, analytically-minded folks whose opinions are actually valued will help.
Title: Re: Steven N'Zonzi
Post by: Thomas on January 07, 2018, 06:37:22 PM
Would be over the moon with him but surely he's just after a new deal at Seville. We would definitely have to let someone go. I'd love Arda Turan as well. Getting on but Sam could definitely get a tune out of him I reckon. Just have to check his attitude. He was at the heart of things when the Turkish national team imploded a few years back.
For a guy who signed Stig Tofting, i am not hopeful.
Just what we need another midfielder!