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NSNO Forums => The Speculating Unprofessionals Forum => Topic started by: Everton News on December 19, 2017, 05:21:10 AM

Title: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Everton News on December 19, 2017, 05:21:10 AM
Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier

Everton boss Sam Allardyce says all that was needed to turn around the fortunes at the club was to simplify the game.

Source: Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier (https://www.nsno.co.uk/everton-news/2017/12/allardyce-ive-done-made-things-easier/)
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: everton1952 on December 19, 2017, 05:44:39 AM
All credit to him for turning the results around and bringing confidence back to some shattered players. In the longer term he will be judged on whether he can bring a return to the style Evertonians like to see.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: therealdunc on December 19, 2017, 01:40:25 PM
All credit to him for turning the results around and bringing confidence back to some shattered players. In the longer term he will be judged on whether he can bring a return to the style Evertonians like to see.

This Everton style is a myth. We have never really had one.
I’m old enough to go back to the mid 70s and our teams always did whatever was necessary to win.

The manager with the most noticeable style was Roberto Martinez and it was completely ineffective, possession for possessions sake.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 19, 2017, 01:51:41 PM
Would love us to play some football and control a game with the ball, at some point.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Smingers on December 19, 2017, 02:00:12 PM
I don't care how we play as long as we win games. And hopefully win some trophies! Let's go all out against them lot in the FA Cup and stick it up em!

COYB
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: di_guyo on December 19, 2017, 02:01:17 PM
This Everton style is a myth. We have never really had one.
I’m old enough to go back to the mid 70s and our teams always did whatever was necessary to win.

The manager with the most noticeable style was Roberto Martinez and it was completely ineffective, possession for possessions sake.

... In his second season
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Lincs Toffee on December 19, 2017, 05:13:45 PM
I don't care how we play as long as we win games. And hopefully win some trophies! Let's go all out against them lot in the FA Cup and stick it up em!

COYB
I think if we do, I could see us reaching the semis at least.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: gizzblue on December 19, 2017, 05:21:07 PM
Scrappy points over stylish losing all fucking day.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on December 19, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Would love us to play some football and control a game with the ball, at some point.

Tbf I think Sam does too. He's mentioned several times after games that we need to do more in possession.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: GLewis on December 19, 2017, 05:58:34 PM
What he definitely doesn’t want is slow, meandering backwards passing that ends up at the keeper; as, unless you are really good at getting out of tight situations, you end up getting deeper and deeper and the keeper just wellies it away.

This is exacerbated by the fact that the forwards have had to drop deep with the rest of the team.

Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Lxxx on December 19, 2017, 06:02:15 PM
Tbf I think Sam does too. He's mentioned several times after games that we need to do more in possession.

Which is why I think Schneiderlin and Gueye cannot play together. Neither offer anything constructive with the ball and Schneiderlin offers very little without it either. As soon as Davies comes on Rooney drops deep and Davies moves forwards, and vice versa, which means we have interchangeable options with the ball. I'd much rather have Sig and Rooney in the middle swapping positions as Davies, for all his promise, still doesn't actually deliver much and with a natural outlet like Bolasie on the left we can start to threaten.
If we can then get an upgrade on Lennon and DCL we might actually start to look as if we can get a foothold in games again. 
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: dangermouse on December 19, 2017, 06:54:46 PM
I think if we do, I could see us reaching the semis at least.

Based on?
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Lincs Toffee on December 19, 2017, 07:08:38 PM
Based on absolutely fuck all really, other than a splash of wishful thinking and knowing that our confidence levels will be up and we will have players back from injury who will make us even better and harder to beat.

Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: everton1952 on December 19, 2017, 08:07:07 PM
This Everton style is a myth. We have never really had one.
I’m old enough to go back to the mid 70s and our teams always did whatever was necessary to win.

The manager with the most noticeable style was Roberto Martinez and it was completely ineffective, possession for possessions sake.
But you are only a relatively new fan. The Harvey,Ball,Kendall side had style. Oh, and even in your early days if you could manage to see over the wall,  Manager Kendall's 80's team had style.  Can't remember any others though.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Mayor Farnum on December 19, 2017, 08:18:41 PM
But you are only a relatively new fan. The Harvey,Ball,Kendall side had style. Oh, and even in your early days if you could manage to see over the wall,  Manager Kendall's 80's team had style.  Can't remember any others though.

Kendall's philosophy is close to that of Allardyce. Get the ball into the oppositions half early and play from there.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 19, 2017, 09:25:56 PM
But you are only a relatively new fan. The Harvey,Ball,Kendall side had style. Oh, and even in your early days if you could manage to see over the wall,  Manager Kendall's 80's team had style.  Can't remember any others though.

Moyes' team played some lovely stuff in his later years.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: D15TIN on December 19, 2017, 09:34:06 PM
All credit to him for turning the results around and bringing confidence back to some shattered players. In the longer term he will be judged on whether he can bring a return to the style Evertonians like to see.
Style means fuck all to me - results are everything.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 19, 2017, 09:47:50 PM
I defo 100% care about how we play our football. Not asking for slow, sideways football at all, but we need to massively improve our quality on the ball and our ability to control games with the ball.

Fair enough Sam has focused on the defence and our shape initially (which makes sense), but as time passes he will need to show that he can get the team playing if he really wants to live up to managing a bigger club, with loftier ambitions (which I think he's aware of). Hoofball will only get you so far.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 19, 2017, 09:55:17 PM
I defo 100% care about how we play our football. Not asking for slow, sideways football at all, but we need to massively improve our quality on the ball and our ability to control games with the ball.

Fair enough Sam has focused on the defence and our shape initially (which makes sense), but as time passes he will need to show that he can get the team playing if he really wants to live up to managing a bigger club, with loftier ambitions (which I think he's aware of). Hoofball will only get you so far.

Don't you think it's more of a squad issue. We lack dribblers, we lack pace and movement and we lack a consistent targetman.

We look a lot more exciting when lookman is playing and doing well. We'll go up another notch with bolasie too hopefully.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Mick 1995 on December 19, 2017, 09:58:41 PM
I defo 100% care about how we play our football. Not asking for slow, sideways football at all, but we need to massively improve our quality on the ball and our ability to control games with the ball.

Fair enough Sam has focused on the defence and our shape initially (which makes sense), but as time passes he will need to show that he can get the team playing if he really wants to live up to managing a bigger club, with loftier ambitions (which I think he's aware of). Hoofball will only get you so far.

ah, i think i may have picked up on why some people differ in here.

When I say i don't care about style, i only care about results - i mean "if hoofball & timewasting are the most effective way of getting results, then so be it".
But you have just done a good job of explaining to me why people differ. It is clear you think controlling the game and and quality on the ball is the most effective way of winning games.

I'd probably agree if i think on it more. Horses for courses at the moment though
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 19, 2017, 10:00:50 PM
Don't you think it's more of a squad issue. We lack dribblers, we lack pace and movement and we lack a consistent targetman.

We look a lot more exciting when lookman is playing and doing well. We'll go up another notch with bolasie too hopefully.

Yep, he's working with what he's got. For me I think the issues are further back. I'd like a centre half who's good on the ball and a midfield playmaker.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 19, 2017, 10:08:15 PM
ah, i think i may have picked up on why some people differ in here.

When I say i don't care about style, i only care about results - i mean "if hoofball & timewasting are the most effective way of getting results, then so be it".
But you have just done a good job of explaining to me why people differ. It is clear you think controlling the game and and quality on the ball is the most effective way of winning games.

I'd probably agree if i think on it more. Horses for courses at the moment though

Yeah exactly. I think we can hoofball our way to 7th pretty much every season and that's fine. Once that is achieved we will want something more, as we should, and the best way to achieve that (imo) and compete with those above us is to get hold of the football. Same applies if we want to do better in Europe in the future, for me.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 19, 2017, 10:10:17 PM
Yep, he's working with what he's got. For me I think the issues are further back. I'd like a centre half who's good on the ball and a midfield playmaker.

I didn't want to mention the playmaker. I go on about number 10s enough. Think we need barkley to stay or a like for like replacement

Hoping probably extremely ambitiously that Allardyce can find us a JJ Okacha too. Crying out for a player with real magic
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 19, 2017, 10:16:35 PM
I didn't want to mention the playmaker. I go on about number 10s enough. Think we need barkley to stay or a like for like replacement

Hoping probably extremely ambitiously that Allardyce can find us a JJ Okacha too. Crying out for a player with real magic

Even a deeper playmaker in Morgan's position, but one with the personality to get on the ball, dictate things, play forward passes, give and receive the ball under pressure. Someone like Marco Verratti (that we could attract).
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on December 20, 2017, 12:18:42 AM


Hoping probably extremely ambitiously that Allardyce can find us a JJ Okacha too.

Alex Iwobi is his nephew, that could be close enough?
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: bacon sarnie on December 20, 2017, 12:45:44 AM
This Everton style is a myth. We have never really had one.
I’m old enough to go back to the mid 70s and our teams always did whatever was necessary to win.
 

Aye, with style. I'm old enough to go back to the mid 60s so pass me that cane and get back to school.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Lxxx on December 20, 2017, 12:51:43 AM
Yep, he's working with what he's got. For me I think the issues are further back. I'd like a centre half who's good on the ball and a midfield playmaker.

Holgate could be that player but we definitely need to spend in the summer to purchase an upgrade on Schneiderlin.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: bogie on December 20, 2017, 01:26:21 AM
Don't you think it's more of a squad issue. We lack dribblers, we lack pace and movement and we lack a consistent targetman.

We look a lot more exciting when lookman is playing and doing well. We'll go up another notch with bolasie too hopefully.

do you ever really watch Lookman or do you just tune out with his fast feet
take last night 2 times I could have played a player in on goal with simple ball but would try to beat 2/3/4 players on his own he is at the club a year now and that L1 crap is still in him someone needs to tell him its a TEAM game
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Escla on December 20, 2017, 01:47:23 AM
This exactly ! I'm four rows back , centre goal upper Gwladys and had half a row plus three in front and five behind screaming for him to pass the ball.......before he was dispossessed !
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Lxxx on December 20, 2017, 02:20:09 AM
To be fair to the lad there’s no way he should have been in our first team squad this season. He should have been out in the championship growing up and learning his trade every week.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Heisenberg on December 20, 2017, 02:46:49 AM
Good footy is winning footy
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Simon Paul on December 20, 2017, 02:59:23 AM
Good footy is winning footy

Easy to say that after the event.

It's when we lose playing like this that the test of fans' feelings comes.

Certain teams you can set out or just win. Other teams you need to try and dominate. Liverpool at Anfield you just need to stifle, Swansea at Goodison you want to be dominating.   Rely on a penalty away at a team that aims to smash everyone to pieces, but let's not do that against the utter shite in the league too.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Jimmywhack on December 20, 2017, 03:13:28 AM
Good footy is winning footy
It's not really tho
We all like to win yeah but that's not good football
Football is a result based game
You can play utter dogshit football and win
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Simon Paul on December 20, 2017, 03:19:02 AM
It's not really tho
We all like to win yeah but that's not good football
Football is a result based game
You can play utter dogshit football and win

Not against the teams we should be looking to break in amongst though.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Jimmywhack on December 20, 2017, 03:20:31 AM
Not against the teams we should be looking to break in amongst though.
Yeah we should be bossing games like the top six sides do
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Lxxx on December 20, 2017, 03:22:54 AM
There’s a fine line though when you’re playing shite but picking up points. Eventually you’ll stop getting the breaks, players will drift out of form and narrow wins can easily become narrow losses if there’s no substance behind your play.

Sooner rather than later we do need to see some evidence of progression with the ball.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Mayor Farnum on December 20, 2017, 03:32:13 AM
I think there's been a big turn around from the performances under Koeman and Unsworth. The more points we pick up the more confidence will build and we'll be more expansive in possession. Even yesterday if was refreshing to see players trying to play forward at every opportunity.
With regards the little bits of luck, well it's about time. Most other teams don't even acknowledge they're  lucky, they just accept it and move on.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: TheRam on December 20, 2017, 03:56:02 AM
Am I alone in thinking we've played some really good stuff under allardyce so far?
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: ally2 on December 20, 2017, 04:00:49 AM
Am I alone in thinking we've played some really good stuff under allardyce so far?

Even I couldn't go that far
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: ally2 on December 20, 2017, 04:02:45 AM
Right anyway.

So what we want is winning football. And we want beautiful football as well. Got it.  I think some will be disappointed though.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: TheRam on December 20, 2017, 04:04:27 AM
Even I couldn't go that far

We have though.

Granted we're not controlling games as we'd like and there are still a lot of aimless balls up the pitch, but there's been some good stuff in the midst of it all.

Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: ally2 on December 20, 2017, 04:09:28 AM
We have though.

Granted we're not controlling games as we'd like and there are still a lot of aimless balls up the pitch, but there's been some good stuff in the midst of it all.

There was decent period yesterday to be fair where we were knocking it around letting Swansea chase shadows. But they were a poor team. And we did also move the ball forward quite well. It's just not quite there though. Needs more oiling. I do think a settled team will continue to help.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Mayor Farnum on December 20, 2017, 04:16:45 AM
Two good goals against Huddersfield, two good pieces of passing moves to win penalties yesterday and a ten pass move to score against Newcastle and not a long ball in sight.
If you take the goals in isolation the only sign of a long ball was Rooney's pass to DCL for the penalty in the derby, and that was hardly a lump up-field.
Ram has a point.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Confucius on December 20, 2017, 05:07:43 AM
Am I alone in thinking we've played some really good stuff under allardyce so far?

Lots of alcohol as gifts so far?
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: mikey_blue on December 20, 2017, 06:33:31 AM
You don't go from getting shagged 4-1 by Southampton to 1970's Brazil in two months.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: blargins on December 20, 2017, 08:03:48 AM
do you ever really watch Lookman or do you just tune out with his fast feet
take last night 2 times I could have played a player in on goal with simple ball but would try to beat 2/3/4 players on his own he is at the club a year now and that L1 crap is still in him someone needs to tell him its a TEAM game
Peter Beagrie says hi
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Hannibal Lecter on December 20, 2017, 12:03:01 PM
There's a fine line though when you're playing shite but picking up points. Eventually you'll stop getting the breaks, players will drift out of form and narrow wins can easily become narrow losses if there's no substance behind your play.

Sooner rather than later we do need to see some evidence of progression with the ball.
I wouldnt say any player has been in form before or after Allardyce were appointed.
If this is Sams out of form tactics then it could be interesting even though I doubt it and agree with in the bigger picture.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Lxxx on December 20, 2017, 12:30:34 PM
I wouldnt say any player has been in form before or after Allardyce were appointed.
If this is Sams out of form tactics then it could be interesting even though I doubt it and agree with in the bigger picture.

No player in form since he was appointed? An unchanged side for 5 unbeaten league games, four wins, 11 goals scored, two conceded....All this after a miserable run where we couldn’t buy a clean sheet or a win. Come on now.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 20, 2017, 01:10:40 PM
do you ever really watch Lookman or do you just tune out with his fast feet
take last night 2 times I could have played a player in on goal with simple ball but would try to beat 2/3/4 players on his own he is at the club a year now and that L1 crap is still in him someone needs to tell him its a TEAM game


I wasn't so much suggesting lookman (and vlasic) have been good more they are the type of player we are crying out for if they had better consistency. He's what we are lacking but he's not ready
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Dr. Sponge on December 20, 2017, 03:19:09 PM
We definitely need to work on not losing the ball as often as we do. Most of the first half against Swansea we were careless in possession. If we'd have kept the ball better we'd have had some better attacking moves.

But we're still carrying too many players that aren't good enough to play beautiful football AND win.

Martina, a young DCL, Gueye is poor on the ball, Kenny is brand new to the Prem, Lennon is hardly a pass master.

I'm happy getting as many points possible, game by game, at the moment. When we have our injured players back and after a transfer window where we buy some players in positions where we actually need them, then I'll worry about style of play.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: GLewis on December 20, 2017, 04:02:16 PM
We have though.

Granted we're not controlling games as we'd like and there are still a lot of aimless balls up the pitch, but there's been some good stuff in the midst of it all.



Unless you’re really good then there’s always a lot of boring stuff in games.

We saw with RM that it can feel even worse when you’re not going anywhere when you’ve actually got the ball under control.

It’s only 5 games since we looked a complete mess.

I’d expect it to be another 5/6 good results (and that may not be in the next 5/6 games given who we’ve got) before confidence is fully there and we can expect “dominant” performances.

It was ridiculous to expect a relaxed swatting aside of anyone.

The problem on Monday was that most of the forward players were poor in first half (which can happen anytime) and the midfield unbalanced - not a pre disposition to wellying it anywhere.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: mikey_blue on December 20, 2017, 04:14:50 PM
If we bin the 2 DM's and play Gana with Rooney dropping deep, Sig as the furthest forward Midfielder, with Lennon/ Bolasie/ Vlasic/ Lookman on the wings then I think we will see a much more cohesive style.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: bogie on December 20, 2017, 05:08:10 PM

I wasn't so much suggesting lookman (and vlasic) have been good more they are the type of player we are crying out for if they had better consistency. He's what we are lacking but he's not ready

Vlasic has been here all of 5 mins and with manager gone and so long for new one to come in he might not get a crack in the team till the summer unlucky but there seems to be a bit more about him than Lookman I really think one of them needs to be sent out on load asap and in that way it will help the other get more game time with the 1st team and not both fighting for the same 20 mins of play
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Dr. Sponge on December 20, 2017, 05:59:14 PM
If we bin the 2 DM's and play Gana with Rooney dropping deep, Sig as the furthest forward Midfielder, with Lennon/ Bolasie/ Vlasic/ Lookman on the wings then I think we will see a much more cohesive style.

Yeah definitely. But we can't do that against the top teams or they'd tear us apart. I reckon we'll still have 2 DMs against Chelsea.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: brap2 on December 20, 2017, 08:58:02 PM
Yeah exactly. I think we can hoofball our way to 7th pretty much every season and that's fine. Once that is achieved we will want something more, as we should, and the best way to achieve that (imo) and compete with those above us is to get hold of the football. Same applies if we want to do better in Europe in the future, for me.

Very few teams have ever made that transition from effective to aesthetically pleasing successfully. Certainly not without major investment in players of a higher quality e.g City.

Without it you end up like stoke, identity less, result-less and drifting, or like Moyes Everton (as close to success as you’ll find) a team torn in two by the desire to play nice football and the desire to stick it on fellainis head constantly. Ultimately couldn’t kick in with either.

Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: School of Science on December 20, 2017, 09:11:39 PM
No player in form since he was appointed? An unchanged side for 5 unbeaten league games, four wins, 11 goals scored, two conceded....All this after a miserable run where we couldn’t buy a clean sheet or a win. Come on now.

That to me is one of the main differences, a settled side, instead of 5 or 6 changes every match,ala Koeman and Unsworth.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Omar on December 20, 2017, 09:59:34 PM
Would love us to play some football and control a game with the ball, at some point.

Leicester did win the league being a counter-attacking side. Not that we have the pace or players for it, mind you.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 20, 2017, 10:31:16 PM
Leicester did win the league being a counter-attacking side. Not that we have the pace or players for it, mind you.

Yeah it's just personal preference I suppose. I prefer football with the ball, to watch and to play. Also I love Everton and football. Some people only care about or watch Everton, but aren't arsed about footie beyond that, which is totally fair enough. I'm not an 'any means necessary' person. Some are. Again, no worries, just a difference of opinion.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Ell Capitan on December 20, 2017, 11:57:55 PM
Very few teams have ever made that transition from effective to aesthetically pleasing successfully. Certainly not without major investment in players of a higher quality e.g City.

Without it you end up like stoke, identity less, result-less and drifting, or like Moyes Everton (as close to success as you’ll find) a team torn in two by the desire to play nice football and the desire to stick it on fellainis head constantly. Ultimately couldn’t kick in with either.

You say that but really what club has 'kicked on' without significant financial investment to match? Obviously there's plenty examples of one off success, but the reality of today is that sustained performance on the pitch is directly correlated with a club's wage bill.

A Moyes or Allardyce Everton can play whatever brand of football they want and may if we're lucky very occasionally punch above our weight with a trophy or top four finish, as Moyes did.

But to imagine there's some answer on the pitch to sustained success beyond what we invest in our squad is to deny all the evidence of the singular importance of money in football today.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: brap2 on December 21, 2017, 12:44:00 AM
You say that but really what club has 'kicked on' without significant financial investment to match? Obviously there's plenty examples of one off success, but the reality of today is that sustained performance on the pitch is directly correlated with a club's wage bill.

A Moyes or Allardyce Everton can play whatever brand of football they want and may if we're lucky very occasionally punch above our weight with a trophy or top four finish, as Moyes did.

But to imagine there's some answer on the pitch to sustained success beyond what we invest in our squad is to deny all the evidence of the singular importance of money in football today.

Yeah definitely agree.

Think ultimately the best teams will be those with the biggest transfer spends and biggest wage bill, period.

In regards to style, it probably just stands to reason that when you buy players that are magnitudes better than other teams you control the game, when you are being more functional with lower quality players, it’s probably good to be direct and tight.

I’m no expert but I imagine both styles have ceilings and those ceilings have pound signs on them.

But, the league is and has been littered with teams who enjoy stability for a while then think the way forward is aesthetically pleasing possession football. I happen to agree, I just think it needs to be backed up with mega money, in the prem anyway.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 21, 2017, 01:12:23 AM
You can play good football and overachieve beyond your budget (see Spurs). It's really not an either/or. Also, just to re-iterate, I'm not referring to tepid sideways passing when I say 'good football'. It's really not too much to ask to be able to pass the ball through midfield at the top level. You can do it with tempo and purpose.

Also, I think Guardiola is demonstrating that teams who play with the ball have a higher ceiling than those who play re-active football.

EDIT: This isn't me slagging Sam off, by the way. He's done fine and I'm not expecting miracles overnight. Just hoping to see signs of progression over the next few months.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Alanvideo on December 21, 2017, 01:25:27 AM
Not going to start a new thread for this but Rooney has made Sam's job a whole lot easier .........
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/dec/20/wayne-rooney-everton-resurgent-premier-league
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: GLewis on December 21, 2017, 01:26:58 AM
You can play good football and overachieve beyond your budget (see Spurs). It's really not an either/or. Also, just to re-iterate, I'm not referring to tepid sideways passing when I say 'good football'. It's really not too much to ask to be able to pass the ball through midfield at the top level. You can do it with tempo and purpose.

Also, I think Guardiola is demonstrating that teams who play with the ball have a higher ceiling than those who play re-active football.

EDIT: This isn't me slagging Sam off, by the way. He's done fine and I'm not expecting miracles overnight. Just hoping to see signs of progression over the next few months.

Re Guardiola (Id like at this point to rehash the pointless trivia that Guardiola means piggy bank in Catalan) you could say his recent failures in CL would point to a ceiling of total possession vs organisation and ruthless finishers.

Re direct football I’d also assume that the wastefulness ratio of hopeless wellies decreases with the quality of player and you end up with early Mourinho Chelsea etc. who weren’t bad teams and didn’t not control games.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 21, 2017, 01:39:26 AM
Re Guardiola (Id like at this point to rehash the pointless trivia that Guardiola means piggy bank in Catalan) you could say his recent failures in CL would point to a ceiling of total possession vs organisation and ruthless finishers.

Re direct football I’d also assume that the wastefulness ratio of hopeless wellies decreases with the quality of player and you end up with early Mourinho Chelsea etc. who weren’t bad teams and didn’t not control games.

Guardiola's style doesn't guarantee you will win every match ever, like, especially in knockout tournaments. I'd still say the ceiling is higher personally, when it's done expertly. City's squad is good but it's not 16 wins in a row good. They have plenty of quality but in numerous positions they don't have the best players in the league, let alone Europe.

Also, if you had to pay to watch football or we're choosing to watch a game, anyone who prefers the perfect culmination of Mourinho's style over the equivalent of Guardiola's very best is frankly a bit odd or being deliberately contrarian (not aimed at you, btw).
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on December 21, 2017, 01:45:07 AM
I wouldnt say any player has been in form before or after Allardyce were appointed.
If this is Sams out of form tactics then it could be interesting even though I doubt it and agree with in the bigger picture.
Some people are just blind to their own agendas
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: brap2 on December 21, 2017, 02:27:23 AM
You can play good football and overachieve beyond your budget (see Spurs). It's really not an either/or. Also, just to re-iterate, I'm not referring to tepid sideways passing when I say 'good football'. It's really not too much to ask to be able to pass the ball through midfield at the top level. You can do it with tempo and purpose.

Also, I think Guardiola is demonstrating that teams who play with the ball have a higher ceiling than those who play re-active football.

EDIT: This isn't me slagging Sam off, by the way. He's done fine and I'm not expecting miracles overnight. Just hoping to see signs of progression over the next few months.

They have done it a different way (spurs) in that why’ve always tried to play good football, but they definitely have spent money to get where they are.

Plus, they have two force multipliers in Poch and Kane, and before that they had one in Bale, so they’ve kind of been blessed or rewarded.

I too would like nice football. Just not sure what path we’re going to take to get it..
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: blue slug on December 21, 2017, 02:34:06 AM
I’m really interested in seeing what style we play if he gets players in he wants in January and the summer
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Ell Capitan on December 21, 2017, 02:36:29 AM
Yeah. Spurs are also 7th in the league. Hopefully that's them back in their hole.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 21, 2017, 02:41:32 AM
They have done it a different way (spurs) in that why’ve always tried to play good football, but they definitely have spent money to get where they are.

Plus, they have two force multipliers in Poch and Kane, and before that they had one in Bale, so they’ve kind of been blessed or rewarded.

I too would like nice football. Just not sure what path we’re going to take to get it..


Spurs' net spend from 2012 to 2017 is £1m. City's was £400m, Utd's £368m, Arsenal £205m, Chelsea £192m. No way should they be finishing 2nd and 3rd, if money equals league position. 
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: blue slug on December 21, 2017, 02:44:37 AM
Spurs' net spend from 2012 to 2017 is £1m. City's was £400m, Utd's £368m, Arsenal £205m, Chelsea £192m. No way should they be finishing 2nd and 3rd, if money equals league position. 

Which it normally does with the exception of the anomaly of Leicester
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 21, 2017, 02:45:11 AM
Spurs' net spend from 2012 to 2017 is £1m. City's was £400m, Utd's £368m, Arsenal £205m, Chelsea £192m. No way should they be finishing 2nd and 3rd, if money equals league position. 

No but it's not a style of play that's got them there it's getting fantastic value for money on players and Kane coming through their youth system

Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: brap2 on December 21, 2017, 03:18:18 AM
Spurs' net spend from 2012 to 2017 is £1m. City's was £400m, Utd's £368m, Arsenal £205m, Chelsea £192m. No way should they be finishing 2nd and 3rd, if money equals league position. 

That’s a fair point and we all know about levy’s negotiating skills and their wage cap.

Thinking about some of the players they’ve had though I do wonder if the wages in the prem have caught up with them rather than they’ve had a long standing cap.

Ah well fuck it, they’ve bought well and sold well and brought a few good players through, good on them.

Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Ell Capitan on December 21, 2017, 03:18:23 AM
Spurs' net spend from 2012 to 2017 is £1m. City's was £400m, Utd's £368m, Arsenal £205m, Chelsea £192m. No way should they be finishing 2nd and 3rd, if money equals league position. 

Net spend is a misleading statistic that doesn't reflect how football clubs account for their spend or pay for players.

Far more important than that is your wage bill, of which Spurs comfortably have the sixth highest. Yes they've had two good seasons where they've finished much higher than you'd expect, but 4th-8th is their level based on spend, and that's more or less where they were before that. As I say, now they're back in 7th and long may it continue.

No doubt they've done very well and in particular have recently done better than you'd expect, but they're hardly confounding the rule that money talks in football. And, realistically, no one thinks Spurs will remain a title contending club, for that exact reason.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Ell Capitan on December 21, 2017, 03:21:35 AM
And, when all is said and done, what have Spurs even won these last 10 years? Fuck all. And 1 league cup in the decade before that.

Fuck Spurs. I fucking hate them.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: GLewis on December 21, 2017, 03:35:59 AM
Guardiola's style doesn't guarantee you will win every match ever, like, especially in knockout tournaments. I'd still say the ceiling is higher personally, when it's done expertly. City's squad is good but it's not 16 wins in a row good. They have plenty of quality but in numerous positions they don't have the best players in the league, let alone Europe.

Also, if you had to pay to watch football or we're choosing to watch a game, anyone who prefers the perfect culmination of Mourinho's style over the equivalent of Guardiola's very best is frankly a bit odd or being deliberately contrarian (not aimed at you, btw).

I think that a lot of football enjoyment comes from the number of positive actions in the game.

It’s impossible to remember 90 mins of the game so you’re only going to take away 10-12 moments max.

Therefore the remaining 85 mins are largely irrelevant (see City at home last season).

I’d also say that Mourinho’s issues have been shutting games down early rather than the aesthetics of when the team was playing well. Certainly earlier in his career. He’d limit the memorable moments which makes things duller in the mind.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: van der Meyde on December 21, 2017, 05:36:13 AM
I tend to have more (max/peak) pleasure from a blistering counterattack (Leicester 15/16 and Mourinho's teams) than I do from a more deliberate style of play (e.g. Guardiola).

I don't think it's contrarian to think that either. As @GLewis (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=258) said, we probably struggle to remember the majority of the match. Many will probably get more pleasure overall from typical Guardiola, but I prefer the raw athleticism allayed with skill of direct football.

That's not to say that Guardiola teams can't do that, they do, but it's not what I would associate them with.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: brap2 on December 21, 2017, 02:13:55 PM
I tend to have more (max/peak) pleasure from a blistering counterattack (Leicester 15/16 and Mourinho's teams) than I do from a more deliberate style of play (e.g. Guardiola).

I don't think it's contrarian to think that either. As @GLewis (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=258) said, we probably struggle to remember the majority of the match. Many will probably get more pleasure overall from typical Guardiola, but I prefer the raw athleticism allayed with skill of direct football.

That's not to say that Guardiola teams can't do that, they do, but it's not what I would associate them with.

In the past I wouldn’t say they have but he’s got Sane and DeBruyne in this side who are purely athletic direct midfielders who don’t know the meaning of passive possession, but he’s of course getting what he needs out of them.
Title: Re: [News]Allardyce: All I've done is made things easier
Post by: Bluedylan on December 21, 2017, 02:24:36 PM
In the past I wouldn’t say they have but he’s got Sane and DeBruyne in this side who are purely athletic direct midfielders who don’t know the meaning of passive possession, but he’s of course getting what he needs out of them.

And he's got a keeper capable of pinging a 50 yard pass on a sixpence over a high press when needed, so he's developed and adapted his style to combat those who combated the earlier inception of tiki-taka.