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NSNO Forums => The Everton Forum => Topic started by: gslick on January 16, 2018, 07:57:33 PM

Title: New Defence Needed
Post by: gslick on January 16, 2018, 07:57:33 PM
From watching the team, it looks like the weak point is our defence.

We basically have these defenders to choose from

Baines
Jags
Mori
Williams
Keane
Holgate
Kenny
Martina
Coleman

Just looking at these, they are great players but they are either too old or not experienced enough.

Out of them, the only 3 players I would play if they where all fully fit would be Keane, Baines and Coleman.

I would like us to get rid of some CB's, bring in people with better quality as our defenders can't keep hold of the ball.

The minimum we need is a new LB and a new CB (left side) and get rid of the players who are never going to get a game like Besic

Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Cozzie on January 16, 2018, 08:07:26 PM
I personally think Holgate has shown enough the last few games to suggest in a few years time he will be a top player.

Not sold on Keane, Mori is average, Jags is too old now and Williams despite an upturn in form under Allardyce can't be relied on.

We need at least 2 solid CB's in in my opinion, and a long term replacement for Baines, fuck Martina off.

When Coleman is back I am more than happy with Kenny being his back up.

Hopefully make it the priority in the summer.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Lxxx on January 16, 2018, 08:14:52 PM
I may be in the minority but I don't think defence is our main issue.

When Coleman and Baines return we can get some balance and experience back into the side and then in the summer we look for a replacement for Baines and one more tall, dominant centre half. Baines becomes a 2nd choice full back, as does Kenny and Jags moves on. Leaving Holgate, Keane, Williams, Mori and A.N.Other. We can move one of Mori and Williams on and with Pickford in goal I don't think that looks bad at all.

My main concern is and has been for the past year the centre of the park.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Lincs Toffee on January 16, 2018, 08:22:46 PM
I may be in the minority but I don't think defence is our main issue.

When Coleman and Baines return we can get some balance and experience back into the side and then in the summer we look for a replacement for Baines and one more tall, dominant centre half. Baines becomes a 2nd choice full back, as does Kenny and Jags moves on. Leaving Holgate, Keane, Williams, Mori and A.N.Other. We can move one of Mori and Williams on and with Pickford in goal I don't think that looks bad at all.

My main concern is and has been for the past year the centre of the park.

I pretty much agree with that, now where would we find a young dynamic midfielder that could dribble, pick a pass and get a few goals?....ahh fuck !!
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: everton1952 on January 16, 2018, 08:25:54 PM
I hear that Coleman is a long way off being fit for action and Baines not as long but long enough. That means we are stuck with the rookie  Kenny and the not very inspiring Cuco possibly until March/April. Do we spend money on stopgaps or stick with it in the hope that Coleman/Baines are fully match fit sooner than it presently appears? 
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: themilkycoffees on January 16, 2018, 08:37:15 PM
I pretty much agree with that, now where would we find a young dynamic midfielder that could dribble, pick a pass and get a few goals?....ahh fuck !!

Would be good if we could find one who does it consistently and not once every 4 or 5 games too...
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Rodenplav64 on January 16, 2018, 09:12:52 PM
I may be in the minority but I don't think defence is our main issue.

When Coleman and Baines return we can get some balance and experience back into the side and then in the summer we look for a replacement for Baines and one more tall, dominant centre half. Baines becomes a 2nd choice full back, as does Kenny and Jags moves on. Leaving Holgate, Keane, Williams, Mori and A.N.Other. We can move one of Mori and Williams on and with Pickford in goal I don't think that looks bad at all.

My main concern is and has been for the past year the centre of the park.

I agree and despite having about 12 midfielders we need a creative one as otherwise we just give away possession going forward . Out of possession we leave the defence exposed through the middle despite the presence of Gana . Looked better with Rooney in the middle as he is creative going forward until he tires but long term I agree the middle is the issue .
Title: We need a new defence
Post by: gslick on January 20, 2018, 09:14:53 PM
I don't think any combination of players in our defence now will be good enough for the Premiership.

If we don't get a CB and a new LB this January then the season is over and we probably finish in the bottom 8

We are poor at the back, we have no confidence in passing or defending at the moment.

Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Morta75 on January 21, 2018, 05:14:21 PM
If we don't buy a new defender I would stick with Holgate and Keane, they will come good when given chances and fait. They are the future, not jags or williams...
If we are looking to buy a new central defender goe for a up and coming lad, that want's to prove them self.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: toshyboy on January 21, 2018, 05:55:44 PM
It’s the midfield. Since Barry’s gone have we bossed a game this season?? Midfield is key to everything, Barry ran that game yesterday at 37. defence and attack both rely on midfield. Only gana has been half decent this year. If we get nzonzi or a similar type to play alongside him then we might have base to work worth. Everyone said it was a forward so we got one, but same issues are there. Forwards only score if they have chances.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Lxxx on January 21, 2018, 06:22:44 PM
It’s the midfield. Since Barry’s gone have we bossed a game this season?? Midfield is key to everything, Barry ran that game yesterday at 37. defence and attack both rely on midfield. Only gana has been half decent this year. If we get nzonzi or a similar type to play alongside him then we might have base to work worth. Everyone said it was a forward so we got one, but same issues are there. Forwards only score if they have chances.

I know he has his limitations in terms of sloppy passing back there but I’d be telling Rooney that's the future for him now.

He’s the only one who picks his head up and passes forwards.
No surprise the goal came from his flighted pass onto the head of Walcott, not just a % ball lifted aimlessly into the box.

The axis of Gana-Rooney-Sig needs to be given a go, fitness permitting. With Davies to alternate.

The defence should be more than capable of working on positionally till the end of the season and drilled to communicate to cut out the schoolboy errors of walkabout we see every week. 
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Juanito on January 21, 2018, 06:33:08 PM
Full back are the glaring problem at the moment rather than centre backs. Keane will come good, Holgate is growing every game and Williams, Mori or Jags offer back up. It’s having a youth team player at right back and a reserve right back at left back that’s the problem.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: SANA_DR0 on January 21, 2018, 06:41:31 PM
in the last 2 months, Holgate has been out best performing defender,, even tho he had a rough time v Rondon, he made some vital interceptions, and covered Williams when he decided he was a midfielder.

Keane, hopefully will get back to last seasons form, once his injuries have been sorted. (most likely towards the end of the season)

Williams... recent upturn in form but besides that, almost on Martina Levels of performance,

Martina.. never rated him, even less so at left back..sometimes he seems to have good positioning and tracks the runs, but usually hes not switched on enough to play on the left hand side, i wont go into his lack of attacking.. Whenever we have Martina at right back.. our left hand side is not used at all.. makes it so easy for teams to play against us

Baines.. We should have got a replacement for him when we knew that Garbutt wasnt the one, least 4 years ago..its shocking and terrible recruitment/managment we  didnt get this sorted out years ago.

Jags, i feel he is better than he has shown, although im sure his age has caught up with him

Mori. always hated on NSNO, but was probably our best CB before he got injured... i'd lilke  him to stay and show what he can do, feel him Holgate and keane, would work great in a 3, aslong as we had 2 attacking fullbacks.

Kenny, he is an attackin right back, who loves 1-2's in the oppositions half,, but it seems like he isnt allowed to cross the half way line. all he is allowed to do is punt the ball down field.. why the fuck dont we use his best characteristics to help our team? yes he has been shit recently.. looks to me like he is trying to do way to much/work to hard..

as said above, defense isnt the issue, its the fact that we cant retain ball possession,  none of our CM's can keep the ball, or pass it forwards in a controlled manner.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 21, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I pretty much agree with that, now where would we find a young dynamic midfielder that could dribble, pick a pass and get a few goals?....ahh fuck !!

Yes but we'd have to buy a new one every six months to avoid us getting on their back.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on January 21, 2018, 07:51:58 PM
I may be in the minority but I don't think defence is our main issue.

When Coleman and Baines return we can get some balance and experience back into the side and then in the summer we look for a replacement for Baines and one more tall, dominant centre half. Baines becomes a 2nd choice full back, as does Kenny and Jags moves on. Leaving Holgate, Keane, Williams, Mori and A.N.Other. We can move one of Mori and Williams on and with Pickford in goal I don't think that looks bad at all.

My main concern is and has been for the past year the centre of the park.
Agree that when players come back from injury and we add a couple, we’ll be fine...but that doesn’t stop us from, as you said before, putting out a Championship level defence for the immediate future.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on January 21, 2018, 08:34:13 PM
I thought Kenny and Holgate were awful yesterday. By no means the worst players on the pitch but once again it comes back to the argument that players shouldn’t be learning on the job at a club of our standing and with our apparent ambitions.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Martip on January 21, 2018, 08:57:47 PM
It's funny as JFK is classed as an attacking full back however doesn't look like scoring or creating.

The way our team is this is critical to goals and with him and Martins offering nowt it means we are easy to play against as we try and do it all through s congested middle of the field.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: kramer0 on January 21, 2018, 09:01:43 PM
Johnfitzgerald Kenny.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: SANA_DR0 on January 21, 2018, 09:14:53 PM
It's funny as JFK is classed as an attacking full back however doesn't look like scoring or creating.

The way our team is this is critical to goals and with him and Martins offering nowt it means we are easy to play against as we try and do it all through s congested middle of the field.

He isnt classed as one, he is one.. see his under 23games this year and last, see his england under 23 games.. its why he is likened to Coleman, and is known as Coleman mk2.

to me it looks like he has been ordered to punt the ball from deep(not his strong suit, his strong points are well..lets say Coleman-esque hence why he is compared to him a lot) He looks like he is trying to hard, earlier on in the season he was running down the line, doing 1-2s and getting to the bi line, since Allardyce has taken charge the BEST part of his game has been nullified.

Kennys an average defender at best, but what he has got is his attacking play. Sam's making him look like Martina mk2.

holgate made some vital interceptions yesterday, plus the goal. Williams was playing as a CM, left on his own against 2 WBA attackers. Again, Holgate has shown he can bring the ball out comfotabley(he did a pirouette Fellaini style and drove into the wba half) but more often than not, he just launches to our striker (Cenk or DCL or Niasse) who are totally isolated from the rest of the attacking players.

We have n o ball carrying midfielders. we had Barkley, but we have no one else who can transition the ball,

we need a decent manager before anything else.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Martip on January 21, 2018, 09:20:22 PM
He isnt classed as one, he is one.. see his under 23games this year and last, see his england under 23 games.. its why he is likened to Coleman, and is known as Coleman mk2.

to me it looks like he has been ordered to punt the ball from deep(not his strong suit, his strong points are well..lets say Coleman-esque hence why he is compared to him a lot) He looks like he is trying to hard, earlier on in the season he was running down the line, doing 1-2s and getting to the bi line, since Allardyce has taken charge the BEST part of his game has been nullified.

Kennys an average defender at best, but what he has got is his attacking play. Sam's making him look like Martina mk2.

holgate made some vital interceptions yesterday, plus the goal. Williams was playing as a CM, left on his own against 2 WBA attackers. Again, Holgate has shown he can bring the ball out comfotabley(he did a pirouette Fellaini style and drove into the wba half) but more often than not, he just launches to our striker (Cenk or DCL or Niasse) who are totally isolated from the rest of the attacking players.

We have n o ball carrying midfielders. we had Barkley, but we have no one else who can transition the ball,

we need a decent manager before anything else.
This is the thing in the best part of 80 odd games in total for clubs and country at different levels he's scored 1 goal and hasn't really looked a threat from what I've seen.

I was all up for giving him a chance but he's been very poor in recent weeks which is dissapointing.

Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: GLewis on January 21, 2018, 09:28:51 PM
Kenny is definitely a defender first and foremost.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Lxxx on January 21, 2018, 09:38:57 PM
This is the thing in the best part of 80 odd games in total for clubs and country at different levels he's scored 1 goal and hasn't really looked a threat from what I've seen.

I was all up for giving him a chance but he's been very poor in recent weeks which is dissapointing.



Fuck me, have we moved on to crucifying Kenny now.

I despair sometimes.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Jimmywhack on January 21, 2018, 09:40:52 PM
Kenny is definitely a defender first and foremost.
He's pretty solid, decent in the air but he drops so deep. I dunno why either

He's defo more Hibbert than Coleman
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Martip on January 21, 2018, 09:51:39 PM
Fuck me, have we moved on to crucifying Kenny now.

I despair sometimes.
Not at all....merely stating I can't see him as an effective attacking force and have been disappointed with his performances in recent weeks.

To be fair he should have been eased in rather than thrown and kept in.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Ridge on January 21, 2018, 11:22:18 PM
I agree with most of the replies, our defence is an issue because of injuries and aging players, but mainly because of how much they are expected to do. We can't really play out from the back, so we go long and give them back possession and brace for the next attack.

Holgate has looked like he's a very good defender and capable of improving further.

Kenny has been good, but he has limited options. Have noticed a few times how well he tracks back and helps out centre backs when ball is on the opposite side. But when he doesn't have to expend so much energy in defence, you'll see him more capable going forward.

Funes Mori could still turn out to be a good defender, and intrigued to see how he'd get on with Holgate.

I'd like to see what Garbutt can do, he's maybe too late to become a top level player, but he always looked decent, just had limited chances behind Baines.

Also we do have quite a few young players who could find their way into the team. Browning seems to have be doing alright at Sunderland. We spent a decent amount on Lewis Gibson, not sure Galloway or Pennington, but you never know.

Jags, Williams, Baines to be gone before long, all past their best and Keane has really struggled. But if we can replace them with comparatively good, younger players, we'd be back in business before long.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Rodenplav64 on January 21, 2018, 11:55:54 PM
Coleman ( when fit ) Kenny , Holgate and Keane ( fine under Dyche ) need keeping and Jagielka would be worth hanging onto for experience alone . Williams and Martina are the 2 who need to move on . A decent LB is the priority and maybe another CH . Kenny might look more of a threat with something actually going down the left and with Walcott on his own side . The real problem is the middle and the lack of a mobile creative playmaker as opposed to five who can't create a single chance between them .
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: SANA_DR0 on January 22, 2018, 01:40:49 AM
He's pretty solid, decent in the air but he drops so deep. I dunno why either

He's defo more Hibbert than Coleman

lol at more hibbert than coleman... nothing like hibbert,. he is very attacking, i presume he is dropping so deep due to Sams defensive tactics.. which include no running up the wing.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: blue slug on January 22, 2018, 02:03:04 AM
I think kenny and holgate are both good first team prospects for the future unfortunately they are being thrown in at the deep end in a struggling team playing shit football
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Shogun on January 22, 2018, 02:52:56 AM
It's not ideal but of all our options, I want to see Holgate and Keane paired together for the remainder of the season.

Williams and Jagielka have no future here and neither of them are playing at a standard that it's inconceivable to drop them from the team.

We've spent £25m on Keane so it's stupid not to play him.

On paper, it's a pairing where they could make up for each other's limitations.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Cereal Killer on January 22, 2018, 03:45:43 AM
It's ok, we've been linked with a 33 year old from Besiktas

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/leicester-city-linked-move-serbian-1094341
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: gizzblue on January 22, 2018, 05:51:34 AM
It's ok, we've been linked with a 33 year old from Besiktas

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/leicester-city-linked-move-serbian-1094341
Only fucking everton would go out and get another bus pass footy player to solve their ageing player problems ...ffs
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: blueski on January 22, 2018, 06:49:35 AM
while all this is true, I'm with the posters who have correctly stated that our inability to control a game and possess the ball is the first and foremost problem.

We are losing the ball in bad situations because our passing is so bad putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on our defence. We definitely need more pace at the back to progress to where our ultimate goals might be but in all honesty when Rooney or Gana or Schneids lays a poorly weighted or off target pass, it gets intercepted in an unexpected area which confounds game reading defenders like Jags or Williams, leaving them on the wrong foot or in the wrong area to compensate. Don't know how we could possibly complete the window without some effort made to address this.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Ridge on January 24, 2018, 08:26:21 AM
So thought I'd post this one, I had a look at centre back pairings. Stats are from whoscored, only centre back league starts are included, some games were tougher than others, too few games to draw conclusions on some partnerships, goals scored is not that relevant etc. Holgate played right back in some games and I've probably cocked something up.

Things of interest:-

5 out of 7 of our wins have come from Holgate/Williams at centre back, with 2 draws and no losses, conceding only 4. We've conceded 35 goals and taken only 11 points from the other 17 games.

Jagielka and Williams have only played together once, given that Holgate had not featured much as centre back until this season, that's not a lot of familiarity or experience of playing together. It's largely 2 distinct new partnerships, Jagielka and Holgate have played together once, and surprised by Jags poor ratings.

We played Holgate and Williams together for 5 matches in a row, won 4, drew 1, including our last win. Allardyce rotated for the next 5 games and only switched back last match.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: brap2 on January 24, 2018, 03:25:16 PM
Holgate Williams has deffo been out best pairing but the fact is we need to plan for the future which is Holgate Keane, unless Keane is getting bombed out end of season.

Let Keane sit deep and let Holgate be the front foot defender.

We could do with a physically capable CB because were quite slow now jags has aged.

We could do with developing Keane and Holgate into comfortable passers.

LB/RB massive issue. Kenny is great and nowhere near good enough. Martina awful. Gone from best fullbacks in the league to worst within 2-3 years.

Missing the pace, dribbling and vertical passing of both in build up and also Coleman’s goals at the sharp end.

Midfield is a mess.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Toddacelli on January 24, 2018, 03:36:27 PM
New defence needed?

(https://elblogestilodefreepass.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/jamiroquai-virtual-insanity.gif)


Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 24, 2018, 07:02:21 PM
Yes new defence needed. I think Holgate would be the only survivor of this current back four if the fans were in charge of the cheque book. Kenny has potential, true, but he's not playing very well at the moment as it's too soon for him.

People say we have talent in the squad, and it's true we do, but only in certain positions. CBs are either really old or inexperienced, LB has no left foot, RB is inexperienced, we've only just bought a proper striker and DMs are vastly underperforming and have been all season.

This is too many positions of poor quality to carry, so until most of them are addressed we're gonna continue to be a bit shit.

In my opinion, you can't have poor quality in both DM and fullback area or attacks can't be started properly without a long ball.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: formerKHL on January 24, 2018, 08:04:58 PM
if you look at the 3 teams units within our team in isolation ie: defence - midfield - attack....

we have problems all over the team....all three areas need strengthening in one way or another....OR

working on and gelling together, first as units then a team bringing them together........

In each unit I believe at this precise moment in time.....we are only 1 player away from each unit becoming a solid unit
defence = 1 solid experienced centre half....
midfield = 1 ball playing controlling midfielder..
attack = a target man goalscorer

and for me the key to knitting the jigsaw together is the midfielder.....
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 24, 2018, 08:11:03 PM
if you look at the 3 teams units within our team in isolation ie: defence - midfield - attack....

we have problems all over the team....all three areas need strengthening in one way or another....OR

working on and gelling together, first as units then a team bringing them together........

In each unit I believe at this precise moment in time.....we are only 1 player away from each unit becoming a solid unit
defence = 1 solid experienced centre half....
midfield = 1 ball playing controlling midfielder..
attack = a target man goalscorer

and for me the key to knitting the jigsaw together is the midfielder.....

So you don't think we need a left back?
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: formerKHL on January 24, 2018, 08:21:31 PM
eventually yes even in this window if possible.....but we "know" baines will be back sooner rather than later now.....but deffo in the future to replace him

I also think we need a ball playing midfielder and an attacker....right now..
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Toddacelli on January 24, 2018, 10:43:27 PM
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pCj6IV5twYQ/WbCInU4hW9I/AAAAAAAAOmQ/iQ7KnXRP9JU_DLWnPrNDSalP0_sl4P9fQCLcBGAs/s1600/Sicilian%2BDefense%2B-%2BBowdler%2BAttack.gif)
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: everton1952 on January 24, 2018, 11:16:37 PM
According to the  Echo Garbutt has been highly recommended by Rhino and is expected to be added to our new squad list "next month" which I take to mean 1st February.  Good news if he gets in for the Arsenal game and when Baines gets back we have two for that position.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: piggypop on January 25, 2018, 02:06:52 AM
According to the  Echo Garbutt has been highly recommended by Rhino and is expected to be added to our new squad list "next month" which I take to mean 1st February.  Good news if he gets in for the Arsenal game and when Baines gets back we have two for that position.
Players can be registered at any time in the transfer window, so there would be no reason to wait if anyone thought he was any good.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Ridge on January 25, 2018, 02:13:19 AM
We might want to keep out options open as we still probably want another player and in case Aubameyang or a great left back becomes available and desperate.

Think we can only make something like 4 changes, and Tosun and Walcott would take 2 of those, so could understand why we might wait and see options before moving up.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: sam of the south on January 25, 2018, 02:16:51 AM
Pinning hope on Baines' return is bleak.

He's been poor for a while now.

Doesn't get forward, corners never beat the first man, is often outpaced, and rarely cuts out crosses.

Even if Garbutt is alright, we need a new first-choice in place for next season.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: everton1952 on January 25, 2018, 04:26:57 AM
Players can be registered at any time in the transfer window, so there would be no reason to wait if anyone thought he was any good.
Wrong according to the Echo. A new squad list has to be submitted to the PL after the window closes, hence February. Of course the Echo is a shite paper so maybe they even got this wrong. We shall see.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Ridge on January 25, 2018, 05:33:42 AM
Think you're under no obligation under end of window, but if you want them to play you'd have to register them.
Title: Re: New Defence Needed
Post by: Ridge on March 04, 2018, 10:28:12 PM
I updated a spreadsheet I did a while back, just from starting positions in defence and some manager stats. It won't be everyone's bag, but thought someone might have interest.

How we've managed to rotate so much and not end up trying Holgate and Keane in back 2 I'm not sure. They are presumably one of the long term partnerships you'd want to build and Holgate's pace and willingness may assist Keane. We've won more points with Holgate in defence than with Keane, from less than half as many games.

You can see that Allardyce kept Holgate and Williams for 5 of his first 6 and then has not played them since. Williams and Keane have featured together 12 times in league, and we've lost 9, 2 draws, 1 win.

I think with cups, you'd reflect that losing 2-1 away from home to Chelsea and Liverpool in domestic cups, is not unexpected. With Europa campaign, after doing well to qualify, we never got going in group stage. After 3 games, we'd played 2 home matches and got 1 point, it pretty much becomes 3 wins or you're out.