September 24, 2018, 03:36:46 AM

Author Topic: [News]Bramley Moore Dock update  (Read 302662 times)

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December 22, 2017, 01:10:19 PM
Reply #2670
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Waltzer


I think fan engagement is vital on a new stadium that will last us 50 years or so, so outlive most of us on here.

We're not going to be telling them to increase the leg room by a centimetre on each knee, but telling them whether or not the stadium looks like it will meet our expectations or not is important.

Suggesting small things that people at the club won't have thought of because they've either never experienced matchday from a supporter's point of view, or the current stadium and expectations from fans have changed dramatically since they last went in the Boy's Pen.

I don't have much faith in any kind of non-Everton focus group either - the kind of thing the FSF would put together about the whole Premier League fan base - and nor do I have, and I'm sorry @Bally and everyone else on it, but I don't have too much faith in the Fans' Forum.  Not because of accusations of being "yes men" or whatever for the club, because I know Bally and have spoken to other members enough to know that's not the case.  I do, however, feel that there are times when the club use the Fans Forum as a way of saying "Yeah we spoke to the fans and they loved it" (the old badge being the biggest example) and that there are people within the club who see the FF as a way of saying "yeah we did do consultation" without rolling it out properly.

Every time the club has moved - or got to a stage where they could put forward plans - there has been a vote given to supporters, except this time.  I would expect the result to have been overwhelmingly in favour, so there's no need for a vote on the location, but I do think there has been a huge gap between club and fans on the current plans to move.  Maybe the GM will throw up more interaction, but that's unlikely given the fact that they are treated more as a way of giving presentations to the shareholders than being an actual meeting where real questions can be asked / addressed.

Think there are pros and cons to both sides, my view is that if you ask 2 people you'll more than likely get 2 different responses, especially around football. Theres a vast majority that want to move, some dont, some would like a bowl, some traditional stands. The more you ask the more you can almost alienate people as people will think the club didnt listen.
Im happy to leave the design to a world renowned architect and with the club making the best decisions for the club. I can understand peoples hesitancy with doing that, especially after the Kirby project, but I think were in a different place to that now, although time might prove me wrong?


December 22, 2017, 01:32:46 PM
Reply #2671
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brap2

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Not a big believer in consumer survey type things, they’re largely discredited in the marketing community due to the low quality of responses and the psychological element involved - people don’t really know what they need but they think they know what they need to say type thing.

However there’s something about this that made me recoil a bit when I wrote consumer survey. We’re not really consumers are we, not really. I would hope that the new stadium is rich with our DNA and more than anything, more than than the greats, more than the trophies, more than the great nights, the DNA is the fans, he fellas who’ve been going for a million years and the younger fellas who one day wanna take little fellas of their own, or the even younger fellas who’ve just started going relatively.

Not sure how they access that and make best use of it, but I hope they do it as faithfully as possible, within business and common sense.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 22, 2017, 01:35:02 PM
Reply #2672
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Escla

NSNO Subscriber
You are right, if you were to ask two people on here you would get two different answers, if you were to ask 100 people you would get in the region of 50 different answers, I can’t imagine what these small things that the club won’t have thought of could be, any examples ? I am quite happy to let a world renowned sports stadium architect get on with it without being hampered by ineccessary consultations with amateur designers.


December 22, 2017, 01:53:57 PM
Reply #2673
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brap2

NSNO Subscriber
You are right, if you were to ask two people on here you would get two different answers, if you were to ask 100 people you would get in the region of 50 different answers, I can’t imagine what these small things that the club won’t have thought of could be, any examples ? I am quite happy to let a world renowned sports stadium architect get on with it without being hampered by ineccessary consultations with amateur designers.

There is a concept of looking for the note behind the note.

When you do these feedback exercises to avoid taking what joe bloggs and his mates says is wrong with the design, but try to weed out the elements that clearly resonate positively, and use that to inform other decision.

I read something about writing once aswell which I think works well too - if someone tells you there is something wrong with your story, believe them. If someone tells you what is wrong with your story, ignore them.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 22, 2017, 05:27:02 PM
Reply #2674
Online

Simon Paul

Administrator
Think there are pros and cons to both sides, my view is that if you ask 2 people you'll more than likely get 2 different responses, especially around football. Theres a vast majority that want to move, some dont, some would like a bowl, some traditional stands. The more you ask the more you can almost alienate people as people will think the club didnt listen.
Im happy to leave the design to a world renowned architect and with the club making the best decisions for the club. I can understand peoples hesitancy with doing that, especially after the Kirby project, but I think were in a different place to that now, although time might prove me wrong?

and that's the point of getting groups involved - the Fans Forum, us, Toffeeweb, Grand Old Team, When Skies are Grey, and such.  People reach out to the Fans' Forum, they post on here / Toffeeweb / Grand Old Team, so we have a picture of the overall viewpoints.  Between us we probably see / read / hear a good proportion of Evertonians' views so make up a decent resource IMO.

December 22, 2017, 05:43:31 PM
Reply #2675
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Waltzer


and that's the point of getting groups involved - the Fans Forum, us, Toffeeweb, Grand Old Team, When Skies are Grey, and such.  People reach out to the Fans' Forum, they post on here / Toffeeweb / Grand Old Team, so we have a picture of the overall viewpoints.  Between us we probably see / read / hear a good proportion of Evertonians' views so make up a decent resource IMO.

Maybe, Im just really impatient and want the new stadium asap so im probably only seeing this from that perspective. Its been 14 years since the Kings Dock and I just want to see the new stadium up and running and I have confidence, especially having looked at Meis work, that he'll deliver something that will go above most people expectations.


December 22, 2017, 05:46:10 PM
Reply #2676
Online

Simon Paul

Administrator
Maybe, Im just really impatient and want the new stadium asap so im probably only seeing this from that perspective. Its been 14 years since the Kings Dock and I just want to see the new stadium up and running and I have confidence, especially having looked at Meis work, that he'll deliver something that will go above most people expectations.

takes an hour mate

then he goes away and adds / takes away / changes a few small things and away we go

I am fully confident that there will be very little that needs changing, but the opportunity for supporters to have a say on something this vital to our future is essential.

Without supporters there would be no Goodison Park - and without supporters being happy with it, there will be no success at Bramley Moore.

December 22, 2017, 06:23:05 PM
Reply #2677
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Shropshire Blue

NSNO Subscriber
You are right, if you were to ask two people on here you would get two different answers, if you were to ask 100 people you would get in the region of 50 different answers, I can’t imagine what these small things that the club won’t have thought of could be, any examples ? I am quite happy to let a world renowned sports stadium architect get on with it without being hampered by ineccessary consultations with amateur designers.
I understand what you mean but ask yourself this "What is it about Goodison that makes it special for you?" Obviously memories and seeing world class players, but I bet there's more? With me it's seeing the front of Gwladys St and Bullens Rd stands - they stand out and give the ground individuality. Z Cars and everyone suddenly standing up and the thrill of seeing them come out. Howard Kendall's picture outside Gwladys St. Knowing our family have one of those plaques at the Park End.
Those little things will be trivial to others, you certainly don't start there when designing a new stadium! But they mean something to ME.
There will be lots of little things, probably mostly cosmetic, that will make the new ground ours. If people feel they have been listened to and can SEE some effort to include some of those things then we will feel we 'own' it and that's important.
The Himalayas has the Yeti, Norway has Trolls, America has Hillbillies. You, good people, are blessed with Shropshire.

December 22, 2017, 06:24:05 PM
Reply #2678
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Mick 1995

NSNO Subscriber
takes an hour mate

then he goes away and adds / takes away / changes a few small things and away we go

I am fully confident that there will be very little that needs changing, but the opportunity for supporters to have a say on something this vital to our future is essential.

Without supporters there would be no Goodison Park - and without supporters being happy with it, there will be no success at Bramley Moore.

Kind of falls apart when you realise the fans had no say at Goodison park doesnt it though?

Surely shared experience is what we actually love about Goodison park (because it's sure as fuck not how fast they can get a pint in my hand)
Our grandkids will love Bramley moore as much as we love Goodison, regardless of design.

Or, they will if all the al fellas stop being moaning cunts complaining how the curvature of the railings in row F isn't what they feel it should have been.

December 22, 2017, 06:28:44 PM
Reply #2679
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mikey_blue


I hope the new stadium doesn't serve Carling in bottles.

December 22, 2017, 06:36:31 PM
Reply #2680
Online

Simon Paul

Administrator
Kind of falls apart when you realise the fans had no say at Goodison park doesnt it though?

Surely shared experience is what we actually love about Goodison park (because it's sure as fuck not how fast they can get a pint in my hand)
Our grandkids will love Bramley moore as much as we love Goodison, regardless of design.

Or, they will if all the al fellas stop being moaning cunts complaining how the curvature of the railings in row F isn't what they feel it should have been.

No say except funding it and physically helping build it, you mean?

December 22, 2017, 06:52:24 PM
Reply #2681
Online

Alanvideo


I understand what you mean but ask yourself this "What is it about Goodison that makes it special for you?" Obviously memories and seeing world class players, but I bet there's more? With me it's seeing the front of Gwladys St and Bullens Rd stands - they stand out and give the ground individuality. Z Cars and everyone suddenly standing up and the thrill of seeing them come out. Howard Kendall's picture outside Gwladys St. Knowing our family have one of those plaques at the Park End.
Those little things will be trivial to others, you certainly don't start there when designing a new stadium! But they mean something to ME.
There will be lots of little things, probably mostly cosmetic, that will make the new ground ours. If people feel they have been listened to and can SEE some effort to include some of those things then we will feel we 'own' it and that's important.
..................as I said the other day ,we always have a walk round the whole ground before ko and I love to stand at the Park End and just watch the traffic coming up Walton Lane ,Hundreds of cabs disgorging fans of both sides ,it's just never ending. I've got a brick in the wall too but can never find it !
We are special ,we are Everton.

December 22, 2017, 07:05:48 PM
Reply #2682
Online

Shropshire Blue

NSNO Subscriber
I've got a brick in the wall too!
So it's important we keep the status quo.








Sorry.😩
The Himalayas has the Yeti, Norway has Trolls, America has Hillbillies. You, good people, are blessed with Shropshire.

December 22, 2017, 08:03:30 PM
Reply #2683
Online

Alanvideo


So it's important we keep the status quo.








Sorry.😩
..............errrrrrrr Pink Floyd wasn't it ?
We are special ,we are Everton.

December 22, 2017, 08:45:48 PM
Reply #2684
Online

Shropshire Blue

NSNO Subscriber
..............errrrrrrr Pink Floyd wasn't it ?
Oh dear, you might just be right there! 😲

I thought I was being so clever. 😦
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 08:46:54 PM by Shropshire Blue »
The Himalayas has the Yeti, Norway has Trolls, America has Hillbillies. You, good people, are blessed with Shropshire.