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Author Topic: Blarg summed it up for me  (Read 9281 times)

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November 29, 2010, 03:46:52 PM
Reply #45
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Tony Clifton


It'd make commercial and marketing sense, I don't think Ginola ever did.

Plus it'd get Arteta off corners.

This, but I doubt he'd touch us with Posh's.  He'll go to a London club.  Or the shite.


deCoubertin

November 29, 2010, 07:06:06 PM
Reply #46
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Connavar


But that's just it  "given the money" as you say. But Moyes has never really had an ample amount to spend and especially to spend at the right times- which is key. Yes, he has a safety approach first but it has served u well in the recent past and because we don't have cash to spend on the attacking power we need.. Remember we came 5th twice which is a magnificent feat for a manager without real spending power. You cn't compare him to Wenger and Ferguson becuase they have had different environemnts at their repective clubs. It's too easy to say They would have done better at Everton than Moyes has, it doesn't work like that. All I can se is that we've made a coniderable amount of progress but we as supporters have to also learn, that it's too easy to change from an safety type side to a real postive one because we do not possess the "tools" or "weapons" to do so. Spurs can with pacey/quality players because the have Defoe, Lennon and Bale; Man Utd can with Rooney/Nani; Chelsea can with Kalou/Malouda; we cannot. Moyes has done the best he can with the equipment he has (so to speak).

No one is arguing that point. Everyone knows that Moyes has taken us as far as he can with the resources available, thats painfully obvious. That aside however, what the argument is, is Moyes' supposed tactical ineptness. West Brom are a Championship team that are playing ok at the moment. A team like that should not even in a million years be dreaming of coming to Goodison Park and winning in the manner they did. The financial backing, or lack thereof had absolutely no direct baring whatsoever to Saturdays result. The team we had out there, where a team that a couple of weeks ago was being touted for Champions League place.

But again, you're mising the point, or at least mine. You say Ferguson, Wenger and Moyes can't be compared, but they can. How else do you measure success? Can Kendall and Moyes be compared? The game is different now to what it was in the 80's, but in 50 years time, people won't take into consideration the "Top 4". They'll look at trophies won, compared to what? A 4th place finish? FA Cup Finalists? Jesus, does Nil Satis Nisi Optimum mean nothing to Evertonians anymore? When Ferguson took over United, they weren't as different as Everton were when Moyes took the job. They hadn't won a trophy in 20 odd years. Old Trafford had seen better days. They were a team on the decline. 15 years later, Ferguson had led United to back to back Premier League wins, Champions League win, FA Cup winners, compared to what with Moyes? Fair do's he still has a while to go before he gets 15 years with us, but you begin to see my point? Now the difference there between United in 86 and Everton in 02 was who was/is in charge of the respective clubs. United had a board who had the drive, ambition and business acumen to take them to where Ferguson wanted. We have Kenwright.

But put finances aside a minute, as we all know, or should see at least how catastrophically the board has let down the manager, players and fans, what my main point was, even when Ferguson and Wenger were building the dynasties that they currently preside over, how often did they have to sit through performances like we did at the weekend? Its not the first time for us. Since 2002 how many times have we had to sit through teams put 4, 5, 6 or 7 past us? How many times has that happened to Ferguson and Wenger. Moyes is supposed to be the best manager "outside the Top 4". I'll be honest, i fucking hate Redknapp, i think he is one of the most overrated people in football today, but how often has Spurs, or Pompey when he was in charge their suffer those kind of results? What about Rafa Benitez when he was at Liverpool. I'd like to say the that at 3pm, its the players that cross the white line and take the responsibility, but think about it? 5-1 at City in 2004; The away UEFA Cup leg in 2005; Arsenal how many times? How many times have we failed to turn up for a derby game? The results last season against Benfica and then again away at Sporting. There is only 1 common denominator here. I love Moyes, and what he has done for the club. But there is onbly so many times you can be humiliated before you have to say enough is enough.

November 29, 2010, 07:23:57 PM
Reply #47
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GLewis

NSNO Subscriber
No one is arguing that point. Everyone knows that Moyes has taken us as far as he can with the resources available, thats painfully obvious. That aside however, what the argument is, is Moyes' supposed tactical ineptness. West Brom are a Championship team that are playing ok at the moment. A team like that should not even in a million years be dreaming of coming to Goodison Park and winning in the manner they did. The financial backing, or lack thereof had absolutely no direct baring whatsoever to Saturdays result. The team we had out there, where a team that a couple of weeks ago was being touted for Champions League place.

But again, you're mising the point, or at least mine. You say Ferguson, Wenger and Moyes can't be compared, but they can. How else do you measure success? Can Kendall and Moyes be compared? The game is different now to what it was in the 80's, but in 50 years time, people won't take into consideration the "Top 4". They'll look at trophies won, compared to what? A 4th place finish? FA Cup Finalists? Jesus, does Nil Satis Nisi Optimum mean nothing to Evertonians anymore? When Ferguson took over United, they weren't as different as Everton were when Moyes took the job. They hadn't won a trophy in 20 odd years. Old Trafford had seen better days. They were a team on the decline. 15 years later, Ferguson had led United to back to back Premier League wins, Champions League win, FA Cup winners, compared to what with Moyes? Fair do's he still has a while to go before he gets 15 years with us, but you begin to see my point? Now the difference there between United in 86 and Everton in 02 was who was/is in charge of the respective clubs. United had a board who had the drive, ambition and business acumen to take them to where Ferguson wanted. We have Kenwright.

But put finances aside a minute, as we all know, or should see at least how catastrophically the board has let down the manager, players and fans, what my main point was, even when Ferguson and Wenger were building the dynasties that they currently preside over, how often did they have to sit through performances like we did at the weekend? Its not the first time for us. Since 2002 how many times have we had to sit through teams put 4, 5, 6 or 7 past us? How many times has that happened to Ferguson and Wenger. Moyes is supposed to be the best manager "outside the Top 4". I'll be honest, i fucking hate Redknapp, i think he is one of the most overrated people in football today, but how often has Spurs, or Pompey when he was in charge their suffer those kind of results? What about Rafa Benitez when he was at Liverpool. I'd like to say the that at 3pm, its the players that cross the white line and take the responsibility, but think about it? 5-1 at City in 2004; The away UEFA Cup leg in 2005; Arsenal how many times? How many times have we failed to turn up for a derby game? The results last season against Benfica and then again away at Sporting. There is only 1 common denominator here. I love Moyes, and what he has done for the club. But there is onbly so many times you can be humiliated before you have to say enough is enough.

I know what you mean about the humiliations, but you're then using two examples of managers who haven't been humilitated who have also spent large sums of money to ensure that they're not. They have also been at those clubs a lot less time than Moyes. Would you have noticed if Pompey lost heavily at home?

With regards to SAF at Utd, yes the game is different but he'd taken on a team that had won the Cup in 1983 & 1985 and had finished 4th in 1984, 1985 and 1986. It's hardly comparable to what preceeded Moyes.

Though your main point stands in respect to that argument in that they had lots of money to spend, whereas we don't.

To Rimbo's (Blarg's) original point though, I find it naive and spoilt to say that a manager who has by and large been very positive for Everton is making you fall out of love with the club as a whole.

Frustration is everywhere, we're all feeling it, but I think a large dose of contemplation over the exact meaning of that comment is needed. If they still feel like that afterwards, I would say that, at best, they are very misguided.


November 29, 2010, 08:11:37 PM
Reply #48
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webby003


Jesus, there are some moaning fickle twats on here. its one bad "half" of a season. Shut the fuck up and let the man do his job, he'll come through like he always does

November 29, 2010, 08:32:07 PM
Reply #49
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nomorechang

RIP
In the last 10years (according to statto.com) the only teams to have gained morepoints than us are Utd , Chelsea , Arsenal and Liverpoo ...
In that time Moyes tooka team that was worth about 25p with 5 players on massive wages for thart time , Ferguson Campbell , Ginola , Gazza and Blomquist , with no hope of a return from any of them , He has assembled a squad that by his own admission with 2 phone calls could wipe out the club debt , he still has the ability to pluck gems out of the air for nothing (Seamus) ... We are going through a bad spell and our closest opponents finances have reisen whilst ours has stood still/...It would be a financial disaster to get rid of Moyes .. he's a chairmans dream , his £65k/week 5 year contract has been funded by the dealing for one player , Lescott ... If he was to go he'd get knocked over in the rush for ambitious chairmen to sign him ... on a better wage !!! in the sure knowledge that they are on a winner ...
Once Everton has touched you nothing will be the same"
Alan Ball

" Notoriously shy and laconic off the field, Dean's quotes are sparse. He is reputed to have said to an over-enthusiastic marker 'I'm going for a pee. You coming?' "

November 30, 2010, 06:26:55 AM
Reply #50
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Thomas


As Si said, you want the manager to be angry, you want him to learn from things, and currently i think he's making a few mistakes and doing little to learn from them.


November 30, 2010, 07:13:22 PM
Reply #51
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marky v


I have loads of time for moyes he's the best thing to happen to everton for many a year but a few things still grate on me an thats his options he has Baines as the only first team left back yet has Hibbert, Neviile and Coleman for the right, he has Pienaar, Bily and Gueye for the left an again nothing on the other side so we play Osman or Coleman out of position he has struggled to get a balanced team through his own faults as all but Hibbert were his buys, that said he always come through for us with performances and results in the end but i don't think the man helps himself out

December 01, 2010, 12:18:03 AM
Reply #52
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.Rimbo.


We seem to have one of the worst strikeforces. We all knew in the summer we needed a proven, top quality striker. We got two teenagers and a league fucking 1 player on a free. Add goals to our games this season and we wouldn't be in this position.

Well, as I said earlier, we've conceded 27 in 15, so our defence is hardly great either. You'd have a point about the strikeforce, as would nomorechang with his 'if we had a Gyan/Bent..' point, had Moyes not mismanaged the strikers at the club as terribly as he has done. If he would've stuck with Yakubu after he started finding his feet and then he wasn't performing, gave Beckford a try after the Bolton game (or even sooner) and they weren't performing fair enough. But they've both looked comfortably better options than Saha this season and they've found themselves looking on from the bench in most games. So that's Moyes' fault.

December 01, 2010, 12:20:17 AM
Reply #53
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.Rimbo.


Care to explain where I made that comment?

I'm not defending Moyes on how the team played. I'm providing perspective. Moyes has given us fans these expectations of challenging for a CL place. He's done that against all odds and without financial backing. Now, with players not performing we're being found out. We've stood still for a couple of seasons and we're paying for it. Yes Moyes needs to pull his finger out and get the team playing better, and the players need to take responsibility too.

Things won't change though, because as long as we've got this board we're never going to progress to where the fans think we should be.

Now unless you have a valid point, kindly fuck off you melt.

Yes, he has risen expectations, I've never dodged that. He's done fantastically to assemble the squad he has, as I consistently point out, but that doesn't mean he's exempt from failure. The last two seasons have been dire and this one is even worse given that there's no injury or Lescott excuses, and the squad is far better than 16th. It's not even like we've been very unlucky in a lot of games. A lot of the time we've been pretty poor, leaked goals and looked incoherent and lacking in ideas going forward.

December 01, 2010, 12:22:27 AM
Reply #54
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.Rimbo.


If I may put my point across...

I genuinely feel that we have reached the glass ceiling in tems of finances and resources available to us. Many people want Moyes out, but this man has had to deal with extremely compromising financial situations that other managers would walk out on. In my honest opinion, I feel that this has to rub off on the players. Say what you want, but a lack of ambition shown by the club would have detrimental effects on the majority of players, especially when you see rival teams strenghtening. There is only so long that " team spirit" and "brotherhood" can take you in the modern game, and Moyes has utilised it to the maximum.

I felt that the signs were there when we sold Lescott. It sent out the mesage that we are, to a degree, a selling club. Also it broke this false myth that the squad were brothers all in it together for the good fight.

I hope I am dead wrong on this, but the FA Cup Final felt like the peak of Moyes' Everton.

He's done great with the finances he's had, but now he's got the squad he is grossly under-achieving, and people are cutting him far too much slack. He fucked last year up and he's doing the same now. We cannot afford to stand still unfortunately, the squad is here, at it's peak, and wasting away because of a negative, backwards-thinking manager.

December 01, 2010, 12:24:17 AM
Reply #55
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.Rimbo.


This!

Maybe Rimbo you just weren't old enough (or conscious enough) to know what it is like under Mike Walker and Walter Smith. Moyes is the one and only that has given us highs in recent years. Go away and think about it properly.

Admittedly I don't remember that much of the Smith/Walker eras compared to most on here but I could flip that on it's head and say maybe you lot have distorted views on the current progression of the team having see those days. I, however, don't constantly compare it to those areas so I know more clearly when we are grossly underachieving.

December 01, 2010, 12:26:28 AM
Reply #56
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Thomas


Admittedly I don't remember that much of the Smith/Walker eras compared to most on here but I could flip that on it's head and say maybe you lot have distorted views on the current progression of the team having see those days. I, however, don't constantly compare it to those areas so I know more clearly when we are grossly underachieving.

Hmm, maybe you have a point.

December 01, 2010, 12:26:48 AM
Reply #57
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.Rimbo.


Jesus, there are some moaning fickle twats on here. its one bad "half" of a season. Shut the fuck up and let the man do his job, he'll come through like he always does

No, it's not fickle is it. Or was it fickle last season and the season before that (start)?

He'll come through and make us finish 8th, which will mean we'll be out of Europe and be grossly underachieving, considering the squad is capable of 4th.

I wouldn't mind if we finished 5th or 6th and lost out to pure quality from other sides, but this squad doesn't even look like a team at the moment. For that, it all comes back to Moyes.

December 01, 2010, 12:27:07 AM
Reply #58
Online

Confucius

NSNO Subscriber
I will never not love Everton   :'(
Farhad Moshiri, Alisher Usmanov, Muhamed Besic, Idrissa Gana Gueye, Ademola Lookman, Oumar Niasse, David Henen, Barack Hussein Obama, Confucius... Everton Muslims growing stronger...

December 01, 2010, 12:27:32 AM
Reply #59
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evertonjoe


Well, as I said earlier, we've conceded 27 in 15, so our defence is hardly great either. You'd have a point about the strikeforce, as would nomorechang with his 'if we had a Gyan/Bent..' point, had Moyes not mismanaged the strikers at the club as terribly as he has done. If he would've stuck with Yakubu after he started finding his feet and then he wasn't performing, gave Beckford a try after the Bolton game (or even sooner) and they weren't performing fair enough. But they've both looked comfortably better options than Saha this season and they've found themselves looking on from the bench in most games. So that's Moyes' fault.

We've conceded 19 in 15 not 27.

R.A.P Music