September 23, 2019, 09:23:08 PM

Author Topic: Ross Barkley  (Read 198785 times)

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June 18, 2017, 05:55:31 PM
Reply #120
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Bluedylan


I think this discussion illustrates the conundrum. Some people complain that he plays too safe these days and doesn't take enough risks, and others complain that he can't do the basics such as keeping possession.

Under Martinez and Koeman, he's been working with completely different football styles, and it's fucked with his head a bit, during his development. I get that people will say 'well, that's the same for all the players, but they seem to have managed fine, so why are we making an extra effort to explain Ross's situation'. To that I would say that he's quite an insecure person (seemingly), he's always been an instinctive player, and it's during the key years of his development. I just think he's probably received a lot of different messages from his managers, and that it might've confused the kind of player he is, or can become.

Under the right manager, whether that's with us or someone else, I think he could easily go to the next level.
''In the words of the prophet, today you sell your ring, tomorrow your watch, next week your chain and in 77 days, you won't have eyes to cry with''

Accattone - Pier Paolo Pasolini.


June 18, 2017, 06:07:41 PM
Reply #121
Online

Lxxx


I do think that Barkley has real problems with confidence.

This has culminated in him losing his identity as a player; as was rightly mentioned, he rarely drives from midfield beating players with his power and pace anymore.

He has been effected by having two contrasting managers, and this has messed with his head too.

I guess you have to question what we want from him.

I want him to drive, beat players, shoot more, look for forward passes, and press.

The trouble is, I'm not sure what Koeman instructs him to do (other than the preshing and forward pashes... sorry ☺️)

I dn't think Koeman is asking for anything different than any other top flight manager asks from his supposed flair players. If he can't grasp Koeman's instructions he's even less chance of Pochettino's.

The issue as you say is Ross himself. Is he bright enough to grasp the nettle on this and take his game onto the next level. Plenty of players change managers, it shouldn't really affect your game any more than a few transitional months.

June 18, 2017, 09:18:55 PM
Reply #122
Online

brap2

NSNO Subscriber
I do stick up for him too much, especially with his apparent unwillingness to sign a contract.

I still believe in him. I think he's a mercurial talent with great physical attributes, and I'm desperate for him to succeed here, which is probably why I've got my blue lenses on when it comes to him.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.


June 19, 2017, 12:39:38 AM
Reply #123
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van der Meyde


Interesting how much some people think the onus is on the player himself to improve.

I stick up for Barkley a lot and my take on it won't surprise many, but I generally think there's a shared responsibility between Barkley and Koeman. That's generally because I think it's unrealistic to expect every player to be able to analyse their games and their flaws and how they can improve. That's not a slight on Barkley's intelligence either, there are many great players - Keane and Bryan Robson to name two midfielders - who have failed at management. Sometimes you just don't have those analytical skills or need some objectivity.

Koeman is right to demand a higher workrate; but I think the responsibility is on Koeman is to teach Barkley where and how to press. Koeman is right to demand more goals from Barkley, but he also needs to sit Ross down and say "you could have shot here; when the ball was wide here you should have made a run into the box" etc.

I don't have any real faith that Martinez was doing a lot of that, instead preferring players to play on instinct. Or if he was, he wasn't very good at it. I suspect Koeman does a lot more of it, but he strikes me as someone with less patience than most.

Obviously it's up to Barkley to fulfil these demands, but I personally felt like I saw enough from him December to April - especially when he had better players round him - to make me think he's listening and trying.  If another year goes by and there was no improvement then fair  enough, fuck him off, but at this stage I'd be doing everything I can to tie him down for another few years.
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June 19, 2017, 12:43:03 AM
Reply #124
Online

KoemansNumberTens


Interesting how much some people think the onus is on the player himself to improve.

I stick up for Barkley a lot and my take on it won't surprise many, but I generally think there's a shared responsibility between Barkley and Koeman. That's generally because I think it's unrealistic to expect every player to be able to analyse their games and their flaws and how they can improve. That's not a slight on Barkley's intelligence either, there are many great players - Keane and Bryan Robson to name two midfielders - who have failed at management. Sometimes you just don't have those analytical skills or need some objectivity.

Koeman is right to demand a higher workrate; but I think the responsibility is on Koeman is to teach Barkley where and how to press. Koeman is right to demand more goals from Barkley, but he also needs to sit Ross down and say "you could have shot here; when the ball was wide here you should have made a run into the box" etc.

I don't have any real faith that Martinez was doing a lot of that, instead preferring players to play on instinct. Or if he was, he wasn't very good at it. I suspect Koeman does a lot more of it, but he strikes me as someone with less patience than most.

Obviously it's up to Barkley to fulfil these demands, but I personally felt like I saw enough from him December to April - especially when he had better players round him - to make me think he's listening and trying.  If another year goes by and there was no improvement then fair  enough, fuck him off, but at this stage I'd be doing everything I can to tie him down for another few years.

So you've got him on a last chance (1 more year) but we should do everything we can to tie him down to 4 or 5 years now to get it. 140k a week for 5 years but if he doesn't improve we want rid after 1.
Trying and listening maybe. He needs to be doing rather than be on a last chance before we pay him 7m a season

June 19, 2017, 12:56:08 AM
Reply #125
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van der Meyde


So you've got him on a last chance (1 more year) but we should do everything we can to tie him down to 4 or 5 years now to get it. 140k a week for 5 years but if he doesn't improve we want rid after 1.
Trying and listening maybe. He needs to be doing rather than be on a last chance before we pay him 7m a season
I think his performances under Koeman indicate that he has listened though. He's improved his workrate considerably, he was generally running our attack well for the three month period we played well.

On a financial basis, as a home grown player which we would always by definition be able to sell at an accounting profit, I think it's much more sensible to keep him on the books at a 7m a year cost than to sign a player who isn't much of an upgrade, for example, Sigurddson at a reported 13m a year cost. Any comparable player we replace Barkley with is going to have a wage hit of 3-4m plus a year on wages with the addition of a transfer fee.

Get rid I'd probably harsher than I meant it because I already think he's a very good squad option for a top 8 side, but I wouldn't hold out any hope of him progressing after another year. Clubs like West Ham and Newcastle would still bite their hands off to sign him though, so your financial argument just doesn't wash with me.
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June 19, 2017, 01:14:45 AM
Reply #126
Online

ally2


He's 23 and has been a first team player for 4+ years and people are still waiting for him to fulfill his potential.  He's about 3-4 years behind in development so it would be no surprise is he's been offered a minimal contract. Perhaps he was given too much to soon.

June 19, 2017, 01:55:23 AM
Reply #127
Online

Shogun

Administrator
For all those who dislike/don't rate Barkley.

Which club do you think he'll be going to if he's sold?

June 19, 2017, 02:05:56 AM
Reply #128
Online

ally2


For all those who dislike/don't rate Barkley.

Which club do you think he'll be going to if he's sold?

I'd be OK if he stayed with us on a two year extension of his current contract. If he leaves then it's his choice if he wants money or wants to play. To get his career on track (because he's behind at the moment) then I think he would be best at Bournemouth. I'd be happy if it was just a loan but it's a bit embarrassing getting loaned out at 23.

June 19, 2017, 02:14:26 AM
Reply #129
Online

KoemansNumberTens


For all those who dislike/don't rate Barkley.

Which club do you think he'll be going to if he's sold?

He'll either get a Perez type move on account of being cheap or he'll be playing at West Ham or Newcastle. He won't play much football for any of the top 7

June 19, 2017, 02:22:54 AM
Reply #130
Online

Lxxx


For all those who dislike/don't rate Barkley.

Which club do you think he'll be going to if he's sold?

I don't think any fan dislikes him/doesn't rate him.

We all want him to do well, he's a homegrown lad and we want them to succeed more than most.

He's not at top 6 level, hence they're not banging down the door for him and he's not actually interesting too many others either.
We rate him higher than other teams do so it stands to reason he should stay and fight it out. Has he got the bottle for it, I'm not so sure.

June 19, 2017, 02:28:14 AM
Reply #131
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BlueForYou


I love Ross but if sold:

1)Spurs (decent team)
2)City (decent team)
3)Arsenal (decent team)

Or

World Cup year so he'll need "guaranteed" first team football:

1)Newcastle (decent manager)
2)West Ham (decent manager)
3)Southampton (will probably get a decent manager)

"We don't need a badge - everybody knows those blue and white shirts..............Everton"

Harry Catterick

June 19, 2017, 02:35:30 AM
Reply #132
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Duncs_a_legend

NSNO Subscriber
Bournemouth.
"I would never die for my beliefs...because I might be wrong"

June 19, 2017, 02:47:04 AM
Reply #133
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BlueBeagle


I love Ross but if sold:

1)Spurs (decent team)
2)City (decent team)
3)Arsenal (decent team)

Or

World Cup year so he'll need "guaranteed" first team football:

1)Newcastle (decent manager)
2)West Ham (decent manager)
3)Southampton (will probably get a decent manager)

Sorry but he's getting nowhere near the Spurs starting 11.

Probably not even getting a place on Citys bench by the time they've spent up this summer.

Arsenal have enough of that type of player on the books already. Again,  wouldn't be a starter anyway.

June 19, 2017, 02:53:47 AM
Reply #134
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Escla

NSNO Subscriber
For all those who dislike/don't rate Barkley.

Which club do you think he'll be going to if he's sold?

Stoke or West Ham