December 17, 2017, 06:08:11 PM

Author Topic: Is the squad better than last season?  (Read 8651 times)

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September 10, 2017, 04:00:25 PM
Reply #195
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Martip


Sold our 2 most valuable assets? Which of Delofeu and Cleverly are you classing as our second most valuable? Or did you mean Barry?

Are you seriously suggesting Lukaku left because Koeman decided to sell him?
I assume there is sarcasm in your post but in case that's not correct I was referring to stones and the big man.

Of course I'm not suggesting that koeman is responsible for them wanting to leave but he is for dross that's been brought in with the 140 ish million plus other.

Martinez was cap no doubt but we cannot hide that overall his player recruitment was a success- cleverly 8m profit, gd 7m profit, Rom 60 plus profit.

Yeah there were some disasters but he left koeman a good pot to work with and he has added no value so far and I 've been very disappointed with the obvious signings him and Walsh have done.

Ashley Williams for example for 12m....absolute yard dog whos legs have gone and we'd be lucky to get someone to take him on s free with his wages.

Rooney ..... for the money he costs terrible signing who we didn't need given we were after gilf. I'm also confident Wayne adds less than ross would over a season these days.

People rave about Morgan but I don't see it tbh and see gueye as a much classier player. 26m ? We are making nowt profit on him.

Bolasie is ok but stats are stats and he was no 28m player when we brought him and cuco Martina wouldn't get into a championship team. Added to this his inclusion stops one of our youngsters getting game time.

Don't even get me started on klassen....

Overall piss poor job done by koeman and Walsh with money wasted.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 04:17:48 PM by Martip »

deCoubertin

September 10, 2017, 07:33:53 PM
Reply #196
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MrWhite

NSNO Subscriber
I assume there is sarcasm in your post but in case that's not correct I was referring to stones and the big man.

Of course I'm not suggesting that koeman is responsible for them wanting to leave but he is for dross that's been brought in with the 140 ish million plus other.

Martinez was cap no doubt but we cannot hide that overall his player recruitment was a success- cleverly 8m profit, gd 7m profit, Rom 60 plus profit.

Yeah there were some disasters but he left koeman a good pot to work with and he has added no value so far and I 've been very disappointed with the obvious signings him and Walsh have done.

Ashley Williams for example for 12m....absolute yard dog whos legs have gone and we'd be lucky to get someone to take him on s free with his wages.

Rooney ..... for the money he costs terrible signing who we didn't need given we were after gilf. I'm also confident Wayne adds less than ross would over a season these days.

People rave about Morgan but I don't see it tbh and see gueye as a much classier player. 26m ? We are making nowt profit on him.

Bolasie is ok but stats are stats and he was no 28m player when we brought him and cuco Martina wouldn't get into a championship team. Added to this his inclusion stops one of our youngsters getting game time.

Don't even get me started on klassen....

Overall piss poor job done by koeman and Walsh with money wasted.

No, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was assuming your post was on topic and so didn't think Stones would be included since he wasn't in last years squad (the one being compared in this thread).

Personally I don't care at all about profit on players. I want players that contribute to our success, not our bank balance. With the PL money and Moshiri it doesn't matter whether we make profits when players leave. Besides, Clev signed on a free, GD came with a buy back (nothing to do with Martinez) and a blind deaf legless cat could have made a massive profit on Rom.

As to the players brought in, Pickford? If he's not a stalwart for years to come I'll be staggered. And if we accept that yesterday was just a shit performance from the whole team.. Rooney is responsible for all four of our points so far, and has been generally good in the other games. Morgan? OK he hasn't been up to speed particularly this season, but he was very good after he signed last season, being a major part of our upturn in form and giving Tom Davies the platform to become a part of the first team. Gana is the better break up man but Morgan is better at distribution. Ross is irrelevant, he chose not to sign a new contract. And Cuco (as shite as he has been for us so far) came from another Prem team where he played.. so your championship team shout is clearly not true. As for Klaassen, you don't expect players to instantly gel, do you? Give the lad a chance. And what about Keane? Yesterday excepted he's been pretty classy so far. And like Pickford, could well be central to the team for years to come.

Overall you seem to be focussing on what players are worth to sell - perhaps you aren't on board with the project to break the elite, you'd rather we accept the glass ceiling and just make sure we buy players we can sell for a profit? I really don't understand that logic at all. I'd rather we lose £100m in value every season and got CL.

September 11, 2017, 04:24:01 AM
Reply #197
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Martip


No, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was assuming your post was on topic and so didn't think Stones would be included since he wasn't in last years squad (the one being compared in this thread).

Personally I don't care at all about profit on players. I want players that contribute to our success, not our bank balance. With the PL money and Moshiri it doesn't matter whether we make profits when players leave. Besides, Clev signed on a free, GD came with a buy back (nothing to do with Martinez) and a blind deaf legless cat could have made a massive profit on Rom.

As to the players brought in, Pickford? If he's not a stalwart for years to come I'll be staggered. And if we accept that yesterday was just a shit performance from the whole team.. Rooney is responsible for all four of our points so far, and has been generally good in the other games. Morgan? OK he hasn't been up to speed particularly this season, but he was very good after he signed last season, being a major part of our upturn in form and giving Tom Davies the platform to become a part of the first team. Gana is the better break up man but Morgan is better at distribution. Ross is irrelevant, he chose not to sign a new contract. And Cuco (as shite as he has been for us so far) came from another Prem team where he played.. so your championship team shout is clearly not true. As for Klaassen, you don't expect players to instantly gel, do you? Give the lad a chance. And what about Keane? Yesterday excepted he's been pretty classy so far. And like Pickford, could well be central to the team for years to come.

Overall you seem to be focussing on what players are worth to sell - perhaps you aren't on board with the project to break the elite, you'd rather we accept the glass ceiling and just make sure we buy players we can sell for a profit? I really don't understand that logic at all. I'd rather we lose £100m in value every season and got CL.
I'm sorry but this is a load of rubbish.

You say a blind deaf legless cat could have made the profit on lukaku which simply isn't true. At the time the majority thought 28m was too much and a lot suggested we walk away....some even saying bony was a better option for the money....we cannot rewrite history.

The decisions to sign clev and gd were choices made by the manager who persuaded the players to come here.

Rooney was brought in as a role model to younger players.....fact is he is past it and his recent misterminers haven't really been a great example.

In my opinion you vastly overate what Morgan brings to the table but we 'll agree to disagree but your Martina shout is way off....saints fans were glad to see him go and remember he wasn't offered a new contract. Awful player.

You 've neglected to discuss Williams.. ..what are your thoughts on him ? As for klassen he looks dross so far but fingers crissed for a miracle.

Ross is only irrelevant now due to koemans treatment of him which makes him no longer a viable option...you cannot ignore that.

You say I'm not on board with the programme...im sorry but player prices are often linked as a measure of their success as it is a results business. I really don't understand how you cannot see what a poor job koeman has done and how we are no nearer to breaking the 'glass ceiling' you refer to.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 04:25:33 AM by Martip »


September 11, 2017, 06:28:40 AM
Reply #198
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irishtoffee




Rooney was brought in as a role model to younger players.....fact is he is past it and his recent misterminers haven't really been a great example.

Not a bad post and normally I wouldn't pick on spelling mistakes but "misterminers" has to be one of my favourites

September 11, 2017, 06:37:39 AM
Reply #199
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MrWhite

NSNO Subscriber
I'm sorry but this is a load of rubbish.

You say a blind deaf legless cat could have made the profit on lukaku which simply isn't true. At the time the majority thought 28m was too much and a lot suggested we walk away....some even saying bony was a better option for the money....we cannot rewrite history.

The decisions to sign clev and gd were choices made by the manager who persuaded the players to come here.

Rooney was brought in as a role model to younger players.....fact is he is past it and his recent misterminers haven't really been a great example.

In my opinion you vastly overate what Morgan brings to the table but we 'll agree to disagree but your Martina shout is way off....saints fans were glad to see him go and remember he wasn't offered a new contract. Awful player.

You 've neglected to discuss Williams.. ..what are your thoughts on him ? As for klassen he looks dross so far but fingers crissed for a miracle.

Ross is only irrelevant now due to koemans treatment of him which makes him no longer a viable option...you cannot ignore that.

You say I'm not on board with the programme...im sorry but player prices are often linked as a measure of their success as it is a results business. I really don't understand how you cannot see what a poor job koeman has done and how we are no nearer to breaking the 'glass ceiling' you refer to.
Were any of your "majority" on Lukaku other managers of Prem teams? The opinions of fans are irrelevant, I'm quite sure a number of other managers would have happily paid that for him after two seasons performing in the Prem.

Signing players on free transfers and getting the selling club to decide your future profit through buy-backs is not indicative of anything special.

Rooney was bought for a number of reasons, yes being a role model was one, and he has let everyone down. But that is nothing to do with him also being a first team footballer. His primary job is to play football.

In my opinion you haven't paid much attention if you think Morgan is useless. And my only point with Cuco was that you have exaggerated (something you do a lot in your posts) by suggesting he isn't of PL level. I did not say he was good, or has played well for us. In fact I have several times said the opposite in various threads. It is a fact he has played for two PL teams, regardless of your interpretation of various fanbases (which is pure confirmation bias btw)

I didn't discuss Williams because I'm not inclined to disagree with your assessment, but since you want to push, I will say your description of him as an "absolute yard dog" is yet another ott description. You could have said he's not good enough. He is clearly a successful PL player regardless of whether he is right for us and our ambitions. Your requirement for a miracle for Klaassen to turn out ok? More exaggeration.

The Ross situation is almost entirely speculation. You being convinced Koeman is the entire cause of the situation is further demonstration of your confirmation bias.

I have not at any point said I don't think Koeman has done a poor job. I have simply replied to your post to counter your various assertions, due to them being supported by your selective exaggerated examples which show nothing other than.. you guessed it.. your confirmation bias. You clearly formed an opinion based on a gut instinct, and are now trying to rationalise it, and for some reason want everyone else to recognise your rationalisation as informed and balanced. It is neither, based on the evidence you've presented so far.

You are right about it being a results business, those results being the outcomes of football matches, not financial results. If you are having to measure our success based on financial transactions then we've already failed in the results stakes. I didn't say, I suggested and used a question mark indicating you ahoold clarify. Which you haven't.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 06:43:14 AM by MrWhite »

September 11, 2017, 07:09:38 AM
Reply #200
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Martip


Were any of your "majority" on Lukaku other managers of Prem teams? The opinions of fans are irrelevant, I'm quite sure a number of other managers would have happily paid that for him after two seasons performing in the Prem.

Signing players on free transfers and getting the selling club to decide your future profit through buy-backs is not indicative of anything special.

Rooney was bought for a number of reasons, yes being a role model was one, and he has let everyone down. But that is nothing to do with him also being a first team footballer. His primary job is to play football.

In my opinion you haven't paid much attention if you think Morgan is useless. And my only point with Cuco was that you have exaggerated (something you do a lot in your posts) by suggesting he isn't of PL level. I did not say he was good, or has played well for us. In fact I have several times said the opposite in various threads. It is a fact he has played for two PL teams, regardless of your interpretation of various fanbases (which is pure confirmation bias btw)

I didn't discuss Williams because I'm not inclined to disagree with your assessment, but since you want to push, I will say your description of him as an "absolute yard dog" is yet another ott description. You could have said he's not good enough. He is clearly a successful PL player regardless of whether he is right for us and our ambitions. Your requirement for a miracle for Klaassen to turn out ok? More exaggeration.

The Ross situation is almost entirely speculation. You being convinced Koeman is the entire cause of the situation is further demonstration of your confirmation bias.

I have not at any point said I don't think Koeman has done a poor job. I have simply replied to your post to counter your various assertions, due to them being supported by your selective exaggerated examples which show nothing other than.. you guessed it.. your confirmation bias. You clearly formed an opinion based on a gut instinct, and are now trying to rationalise it, and for some reason want everyone else to recognise your rationalisation as informed and balanced. It is neither, based on the evidence you've presented so far.

You are right about it being a results business, those results being the outcomes of football matches, not financial results. If you are having to measure our success based on financial transactions then we've already failed in the results stakes. I didn't say, I suggested and used a question mark indicating you ahoold clarify. Which you haven't.
In my humble opinion nothing you have written here counters anything i have said and for you say it's based on gut instinct is incorrect. There is no doubt that Martinez created value whether we liked him or not and so far koeman has not....you say it takes nothing special but so far koeman has not managed it while having a much larger wage budget. Surely you cannot disagree with that ?

Of course the most important thing is the results of football matches but it's crazy to say that these and player prices are not linked. For example, pre lcfc winning the league vardy wouldn't have sold for more than 5 pence and a bag of buttons however he's now a 30-40m player....its a results business as you stated and the reason why it would be unlikely we'd lose 100m and qualify for the ucl as you say.

Is say the difference between a player not being good enough/being a yard dog could be a fine depending on your perception/expectations for money spent.

I really don't know what evidence you need ? If you watch the games surely that is all the evidence you need as we 've been crap so far.


« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 07:17:54 AM by Martip »


September 11, 2017, 07:58:35 AM
Reply #201
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MrWhite

NSNO Subscriber
In my humble opinion nothing you have written here counters anything i have said and for you say it's based on gut instinct is incorrect. There is no doubt that Martinez created value whether we liked him or not and so far koeman has not....you say it takes nothing special but so far koeman has not managed it while having a much larger wage budget. Surely you cannot disagree with that ?

Of course the most important thing is the results of football matches but it's crazy to say that these and player prices are not linked. For example, pre lcfc winning the league vardy wouldn't have sold for more than 5 pence and a bag of buttons however he's now a 30-40m player....its a results business as you stated and the reason why it would be unlikely we'd lose 100m and qualify for the ucl as you say.

Is say the difference between a player not being good enough/being a yard dog could be a fine depending on your perception/expectations for money spent.

I really don't know what evidence you need ? If you watch the games surely that is all the evidence you need as we 've been crap so far.
So having bought a load of players, and sold none of the players he has bought, there is no evidence as to whether Koeman's buys can or will be sold for a profit.. so yes, I can disagree with your assertion that Koeman has not "created value". Of course that is assuming that making a profit on players is his main job, which it clearly isn't. If you're talking about value on the pitch.. then you're Martinez "created value" argument is seriously flawed.

Again, a ridiculous exaggeration example. 5 pence and a bag of buttons? Perhaps you were not aware Leicester paid £1m for him then.. and surely his value was increased by him scoring a shed load of goals? Nothing to do with the manager that bought him. And Leicester's title was clearly obtained due to Kante given the same team with the same manager was relatively shit the following season.

I need actual evidence to reach conclusions. You have already reached a conclusion, and are claiming certain things are evidence, when we are four games into a season. Again, confirmation bias. Saying "surely you cannot disagree with that" does not make me sound delusional and you wise, it just highlights that you will only perceive (or admit to perceiving) things which support the conclusion you've jumped to without sufficient evidence. Like.. Koeman is to blame for Barkley. Koeman has not made a profit on players he has bought..

None of that means I think we have started well. But unlike you, I am not concluding out manager is useless, and that my dint of that our season is going to be shit. The jury is out until there is sufficient evidence to reach a conclusion. There is certainly cause for concern, and reason for debate and discussion. But having firm conclusions now can only mean they are made with feelings, and then rationalised after the fact to fit interpretations of events as evidence to confirm a biased prejudice.

You don't like Koeman. We get it. Trying to prove your feeling is rational.. is not rational. Although it is very common human behaviour.

September 11, 2017, 03:00:11 PM
Reply #202
Online

Lxxx


Squad is clearly better but my concern is that I fail to see any kind of coherent plan in how he's going to use it.

The start to the season was always going to be tough trying to accommodate lots of new players into a tough opening run but I'm still not seeing a style of play, a system we look comfortable with or any understanding at all between those on the pitch. We're also seeing panic subs to rectify his mistakes.

We should at least be causing the better teams a few problems if nothing else but in three games against the top 6 so far we've hardly registered a shot on goal.

It's too early to be calling for decisions to be made but things need to improve pretty quickly to regain some confidence and stop harsher questions being asked.

September 11, 2017, 03:33:40 PM
Reply #203
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Martip


So having bought a load of players, and sold none of the players he has bought, there is no evidence as to whether Koeman's buys can or will be sold for a profit.. so yes, I can disagree with your assertion that Koeman has not "created value". Of course that is assuming that making a profit on players is his main job, which it clearly isn't. If you're talking about value on the pitch.. then you're Martinez "created value" argument is seriously flawed.Ok first and foremost I want to clarify that I was not a big Martinez fan however we cannot just forget that we had a cracking season under him playing some of the best football I've seen in years as well as getting to 2 cup semi finals on a relatively small budget. Considering this I'd say he was a success using your logic and of course he did this while making a tidy profit which you can't ignore when judging how well a manager has done. 

Again, a ridiculous exaggeration example. 5 pence and a bag of buttons? Perhaps you were not aware Leicester paid £1m for him then.. and surely his value was increased by him scoring a shed load of goals? Nothing to do with the manager that bought him. And Leicester's title was clearly obtained due to Kante given the same team with the same manager was relatively shit the following season. I have to be honest and say that this is just rubbish. On one hand you are saying the league win was all down to kante then you  are saying vardy scored lots of goals....i take these did not contribute to the success along with the form if marez etc ? I d say a large proportion of Lcfcs win was down to a manager lifting a group of players to the peak if their game at the same time and finding a system that suited them.

I need actual evidence to reach conclusions. You have already reached a conclusion, and are claiming certain things are evidence, when we are four games into a season. Again, confirmation bias. Saying "surely you cannot disagree with that" does not make me sound delusional and you wise, it just highlights that you will only perceive (or admit to perceiving) things which support the conclusion you've jumped to without sufficient evidence. Like.. Koeman is to blame for Barkley. Koeman has not made a profit on players he has bought..the evidence you refer to for me is what I have seen on the pitch...ie Williams been crap, Rooney being past it for 2 years prior to his transfer back,the team looking disjointed and overloaded in certain areas with key areas not having been addressed etc. Say what you will koeman has treated both niasse and barkley badly in the media so there's no reason to assume he would have been any different between closed doors.

None of that means I think we have started well. But unlike you, I am not concluding out manager is useless, and that my dint of that our season is going to be shit. The jury is out until there is sufficient evidence to reach a conclusion. There is certainly cause for concern, and reason for debate and discussion. But having firm conclusions now can only mean they are made with feelings, and then rationalised after the fact to fit interpretations of events as evidence to confirm a biased prejudice.

You don't like Koeman. We get it. Trying to prove your feeling is rational.. is not rational. Although it is very common human behaviour.
From the little time I've spent on the forum this is what I've found strange tbh. If someone raises concern with what they seeing they are kopites or wums or irrational based in a lack of evidence however if that same person comes back with evidence proving their points they are branded bad fans who wallow in the glory of being correct while the team is struggling.....i don't get it.
Surely we should discuss what we are seeing from the team and individual players throughout the season and so far I have been less than impressed with recruitment and performances. 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 03:55:01 PM by Martip »

September 11, 2017, 03:50:43 PM
Reply #204
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pjk


From the little time I've spent on the forum this is what I've found strange tbh. If someone raises concern with what they seeing they are kopites or wums or irrational based in a lack of evidence however if that same person comes back with evidence proving their points they are branded bad fans who wallow in the glory of being correct while the team is struggling.....i don't get it.
Surely we should discuss what we are seeing from the team and individual players throughout the season and so far I have been less than impressed with recruitment and performances. 





It's a bit heavy on the red mate. ???
Steinbeck's maxim: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”.

September 11, 2017, 03:55:56 PM
Reply #205
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Martip



September 11, 2017, 06:12:08 PM
Reply #206
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Jay


The biggest concern for me, is not whether the squad is better than last year of not, it is, as Lxxx mentioned, there seems to me to be no coherent plan of how the team is trying to play; what the game plan is.

September 11, 2017, 06:40:44 PM
Reply #207
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GLewis

NSNO Subscriber
The biggest concern for me, is not whether the squad is better than last year of not, it is, as Lxxx mentioned, there seems to me to be no coherent plan of how the team is trying to play; what the game plan is.


That's what can happen if you're bringing in 7 new players and also having tough fixtures for which you might change your game plan normally anyway.

Add in not playing well through a combination of poor decisions and individual form; and then top everything off with not signing a key tactical component and it's not hard to see how it can bumble into being a mess.

We've got a lot of players now who need the ball under control in the final 3rd.

Hopefully after the Utd game we can start to settle down in games where you can still win even if you're not playing well.

September 11, 2017, 06:50:30 PM
Reply #208
Online

Lxxx


That's what can happen if you're bringing in 7 new players and also having tough fixtures for which you might change your game plan normally anyway.

Add in not playing well through a combination of poor decisions and individual form; and then top everything off with not signing a key tactical component and it's not hard to see how it can bumble into being a mess.

We've got a lot of players now who need the ball under control in the final 3rd.

Hopefully after the Utd game we can start to settle down in games where you can still win even if you're not playing well.

All fair points. To which you then have to look at decision-making during this early run.
Have we tried to incorporate too many new signings into an otherwise already tough run of fixtures. Might Sandro, Martina and Klassan been better served being integrated into the team piecemeal or even sitting out high intensity games against tougher opposition. Especially when we're swapping and changing formations as well.

Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing but you need to reflect on decisions made if they ultimately don't work as managers are judged and success is evaluated on results and performances.

September 11, 2017, 07:05:47 PM
Reply #209
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GLewis

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All fair points. To which you then have to look at decision-making during this early run.
Have we tried to incorporate too many new signings into an otherwise already tough run of fixtures. Might Sandro, Martina and Klassan been better served being integrated into the team piecemeal or even sitting out high intensity games against tougher opposition. Especially when we're swapping and changing formations as well.

Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing but you need to reflect on decisions made if they ultimately don't work as managers are judged and success is evaluated on results and performances.

Yes I don't think he's made the right decisions all the time such as I wouldn't have played Sandro and Klaassen together on Saturday and I would have had a more defensive RB too.

But we don't have Lukaku or Barkley or want to play Mirallas either so we're going to have to go with new players / combinations whatever.

Mistakes in these fixtures are going to be magnified of course.