September 26, 2018, 08:36:44 AM

Author Topic: The big man, the boss; Big Sam  (Read 128206 times)

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January 05, 2018, 06:30:32 PM
Reply #810
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Bluenose 91


Some good points but cherry-picking perceived pluses of a Martinez reign whilst neglecting to mention all the negatives doesn't lead to a balanced argument.

I was going to say ''what a load of shite'' but yeah you put it better.


January 05, 2018, 06:34:25 PM
Reply #811
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Jamokachi


He left far more than he inherited, we got nearly £200m for Stones, Lukaku and Barkley.

Moyes signed Stones, and Barkley was a product of the youth system.

January 05, 2018, 06:39:20 PM
Reply #812
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Trowel


Martinez inherited one of the most settled defences in the country, and invested in its future in the form of Joel Robles, Funes Mori, and Antolin bloody Alcaraz.
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January 05, 2018, 06:42:41 PM
Reply #813
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TheRam

NSNO Subscriber
I think we can give Martinez some credit for development of the young players we're seeing now.

He created a path into the first team for them and we're seeing the fruits of that labour.

It wasnt all bad with him. He done some very good things here.

But you cant deny it was an absolute mess towards the end

January 05, 2018, 06:48:20 PM
Reply #814
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Lxxx


Moyes signed Stones, and Barkley was a product of the youth system.

Also Lukaku was hardly a punt. He was one of the most highly rated young strikers in world football and we had a 'try before you buy' deal, then pulled out all the stops to make it happen.

January 05, 2018, 07:02:17 PM
Reply #815
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Ridge


Some good points but cherry-picking perceived pluses of a Martinez reign whilst neglecting to mention all the negatives doesn't lead to a balanced argument.

For the sake of balance and preaching the controversy. 10% more than next highest points total in 30 years, but he did talk nonsense and say phenomenal an annoying amount, he tried to be kind to everyone which made him seem insincere.

We never replaced height after selling Fellaini and Distin and we conceded a lot of headed goals. He refused to organise a defence, but this was Guardiola a little over a year ago.

Quote
Asked about his side's struggles to win the ball off Leicester, having not won a tackle in the opening 35 minutes, Guardiola said: "The second balls is a concept that is typical here in England when they use a lot about the tackles.

"I am not a coach for the tackles so I don't train the tackles. What I want is to try and play good and score goals and arrive more [in the box].

"Yes the duels you have to win that's true. But normally when you play good you win a lot of tackles"


January 05, 2018, 07:14:14 PM
Reply #816
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Mick 1995

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For the sake of balance and preaching the controversy. 10% more than next highest points total in 30 years, but he did talk nonsense and say phenomenal an annoying amount, he tried to be kind to everyone which made him seem insincere.

We never replaced height after selling Fellaini and Distin and we conceded a lot of headed goals. He refused to organise a defence, but this was Guardiola a little over a year ago.


you're mistaking tackling with defending.

Most top defenders will tell you that, if they are flying in for a tackle, it is because they fucked up somewhere else. It's a last ditch thing, going to the floor.
Guardiola wants to make sure his defence is solid and well trained and doesn't bother with tackles because he intends to cut out the danger before it gets that far.

Martinez and yourself hear "i don't train for tackles2 as "I don't tgive a shit about defending because i want to have the ball all the time".
It's not the same thing.

January 05, 2018, 07:15:06 PM
Reply #817
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Lxxx


For the sake of balance and preaching the controversy. 10% more than next highest points total in 30 years, but he did talk nonsense and say phenomenal an annoying amount, he tried to be kind to everyone which made him seem insincere.

We never replaced height after selling Fellaini and Distin and we conceded a lot of headed goals. He refused to organise a defence, but this was Guardiola a little over a year ago.


I'm not denying that Martinez's investment in youth is admirable. I think he might be best served as an U-23 coach as he'd probably make the young lads feel 10 feet tall. I'm not sure his methods would fully prepare them for the competitive world of football at a higher level mind but I'm willing to admit he's probably a decent bloke, if a little unhinged.

January 05, 2018, 07:15:22 PM
Reply #818
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Ridge


Also Lukaku was hardly a punt. He was one of the most highly rated young strikers in world football and we had a 'try before you buy' deal, then pulled out all the stops to make it happen.

Lukaku was obvious in hindsight, but we had to attract in first place, then motivate to push for a transfer to us. We spent our entire budget, he could have got a major injury and there are still some fundamental flaws in terms of play as a target man.

Now we've got more money than sense, but would Lukaku come here from Chelsea now or would we buy, I don't think so.

January 05, 2018, 07:20:01 PM
Reply #819
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Ell Capitan

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Some awful revisionism going on in here.

Martinez was terrible. Our defence wasn’t a mess because of the players, it was because of his lack of focus on defence. Which he stated many times. Absurd words to come out a manager’s mouth.

Meanwhile the romanticism leads people to think ‘well defensively we were bad, but going forward we were exciting’. No we fucking weren’t. We were shite. Last 18 months watching us was dreadful, we had no effective plan of how to attack, every other manager had figured us out, we literally didn’t beat a single team above us in the league the entire time.

This isn’t just a fan opinion. Multiple players have come out and said how appaling he was. Pienaar, Hibbert, Baines, Jags etc.  And remember Baines eyerolling? Or Lukakus reaction when he found out about the Belgium job? Martinez had zero respect from all our top players.

I can’t emphasise this enough: Martinez was absolutely fucking shite and getting rid of him was one of the best (if far too delayed) decisions I’ve ever seen the club make.

January 05, 2018, 07:28:28 PM
Reply #820
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themilkycoffees


I don't think teams had worked us out quite as much as you say. We scored more than United and the same as Southampton who finished 5th and 6th in 2015-16. The problem was 100% with the defensive side of the game. We didn't press well enough, and we lost multiple leads late in games. There was a major issue with the the fitness and then half the players completely gave up, which is when it looked truly shambolic.

Top players like Hibbert, Baines and Jags who have never and will never win a single thing in their lives. No denying he needed to go because our top players decided to stop trying. Some of them are still here. Serial losers.

January 05, 2018, 07:47:14 PM
Reply #821
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Ridge


Moyes signed Stones, and Barkley was a product of the youth system.

Both were young players on the periphery of the team. Martinez was close to signing Stones for Wigan and Barkley was playing out wide before Martinez made him a central figure in team. But I liked and still rate what Moyes did, I just think it highlights what Martinez did even more.

Moyes was here 3 times longer than Martinez, and he gave youngsters a chance to come into the team. But he never really cemented them in the first team or built a team round them. Most of the players that saw the biggest development under Moyes were probably around 25. All the players excluding Rooney, probably had time out on loan, played out wide, got chances here and there.

Martinez signed Holgate, Galloway and was bringing Pennington and Browning through. We've signed Williams, Keane since and are only starting to give Holgate time now, almost out of necessity and rest are loaned out and likely not to get chance.

January 05, 2018, 08:06:04 PM
Reply #822
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Bluenose 91


Can we knock the Guardiola comparisons on the head?

They're both Spanish and that's where the similarities end.

January 05, 2018, 08:18:35 PM
Reply #823
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themilkycoffees


I don't think anyone is trying to say Martinez can be compared with Guardiola. It is a lot easier to play an expansive possession based system with Barcelona, Bayern and City though. Be interesting to see how Martinez does with Belgium, with genuine quality right across the pitch. I personally think he'll do well.

January 05, 2018, 08:24:33 PM
Reply #824
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Ell Capitan

NSNO Subscriber
I don't think teams had worked us out quite as much as you say. We scored more than United and the same as Southampton who finished 5th and 6th in 2015-16. The problem was 100% with the defensive side of the game. We didn't press well enough, and we lost multiple leads late in games. There was a major issue with the the fitness and then half the players completely gave up, which is when it looked truly shambolic.

Top players like Hibbert, Baines and Jags who have never and will never win a single thing in their lives. No denying he needed to go because our top players decided to stop trying. Some of them are still here. Serial losers.

You need to go and watch some of those games again. We were awful going forward.

Admittedly we did hammer really awful team like Sunderland and Villa which did wonders for the ‘Goals For’ column.

And that’s really all Martinez’s style was good for - beating teams that were shite. When we came u against a team with very poor discipline and no quality, we’d win. It’s why we did ‘well’ in the cups with the bloody two semi final line, but when in those competitions we actually had to play someone decent, we got found out.

The defence was by far the bigger problem I’ll give you that, but to suggest that Martinez had us even halfway competent going forward is untrue.