February 25, 2018, 02:07:45 AM

Author Topic: Theo Walcott  (Read 20099 times)

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January 12, 2018, 06:43:25 PM
Reply #165
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van der Meyde


I think he's a good player. He's unquestionably better than what we've got.

In the context of a season that's all but over though, it's a little more short-term than I'd like.

We have a window of opportunity to give our young players 5 months of pressure free first-team football. Yet here we are putting additional barriers in front of Calvert-Lewin, Lookman and Vlasic.

It's a results-driven business. Allardyce will 100% of the time choose a proven Walcott over an unproven Lookman (for example). Is Walcott better than Lookman now? Of course he is. Would Lookman be better for us in a couple of years time than a 30+ year old Walcott though? Quite possibly. Will Lookman progress if he's not actually playing first team football though? Not a chance.

Walcott's not going to be the difference between us winning a trophy or not this season. He's not going to be the difference between finishing in the top 4. He's not even going to be decisive in finishing the top 6. He might help us finish 7th, but half our fans don't even want that.

I don't particularly have any faith that Walcott or Tosun will prove the difference in future years either. So at this point it's all just a little disappointing for me really.
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January 12, 2018, 06:49:32 PM
Reply #166
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blargins

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I think he's a good player. He's unquestionably better than what we've got.

In the context of a season that's all but over though, it's a little more short-term than I'd like.

We have a window of opportunity to give our young players 5 months of pressure free first-team football. Yet here we are putting additional barriers in front of Calvert-Lewin, Lookman and Vlasic.

It's a results-driven business. Allardyce will 100% of the time choose a proven Walcott over an unproven Lookman (for example). Is Walcott better than Lookman now? Of course he is. Would Lookman be better for us in a couple of years time than a 30+ year old Walcott though? Quite possibly. Will Lookman progress if he's not actually playing first team football though? Not a chance.

Walcott's not going to be the difference between us winning a trophy or not this season. He's not going to be the difference between finishing in the top 4. He's not even going to be decisive in finishing the top 6. He might help us finish 7th, but half our fans don't even want that.

I don't particularly have any faith that Walcott or Tosun will prove the difference in future years either. So at this point it's all just a little disappointing for me really.

What barrier are we putting in front of DCL? He's had half a season to make the claim for the striker position, and while he has battled on and done the best he can, he is clearly not good enough to make the role his own. Whether he will improve to be that player, only time will tell. But he is clearly not the answer and having better quality strikers in the squad should help him be better. In terms of better quality rubbing off on him, competition, and also to ease the pressure of being the main man.

Would I prefer someone younger than Walcott? Of course, but a player in his mid 20s is going to cost a ton of money and likely wouldn't come to us. We need the mix of older and younger players throughout the squad.

At the end of the day, if he comes in for 20 mill, I think that's a reasonable fee. If we get the 13 for Niasse that's being branded about, then for just 7 more, we're getting a proven premiership player who is actually good.
"I wouldn't be up here if I hadn't failed a million times." Nick Foles

January 12, 2018, 06:52:19 PM
Reply #167
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KoemansNumberTens


So, and i assume i must be massively wide of the mark here because it seems like nonsense:

We shouldn't buy good players because we don't have the calibre of players to play around them for them to continue being good?

We shouldn't buy the weakest players at the top sides and expect them to produce the form that made them the weakest players at the top sides



January 12, 2018, 06:55:33 PM
Reply #168
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Mick 1995

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I don't believe 'is he better than what we have?' should be the defining criteria because every other winger in the league has a better goal scoring record than Aaron Lennon over the last two seasons, but that doesn't mean we should sign them.
Point blank disagree with you there. It is absolutely the defining criteria. Without passing that test then you get no further (after that you get into the 'is he the best we can get'/'is he worth the fee' questions. but they're all irrelevant compared to the above.

We should be looking at players like Lozano or Pavon. The next generation of superstar wingers.
2 genuine questions about this:
1) Will they be ready to start the first game of next season and actually be better than what we have immediately?
2) The second we put an offer in that is accepted, do you reckon Chelsea/City/Juve/Arsenal would sit back and let us have them?

 
keep reading @KoemansNumberTens , it was cleared up. (although, to your point specifically. What if the weakest players of the top sides are still miles better than our best players? Swerve them because they won't be quite as good for us?)

January 12, 2018, 06:57:13 PM
Reply #169
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van der Meyde


What barrier are we putting in front of DCL?
I would have thought it was clear that I was more concerned by our wider players, like Lookman, but Tosun and Walcott are clearly barriers for Calvert-Lewin. Whether or not you rate him is entirely besides the point.

Whether he will improve to be that player, only time will tell. But he is clearly not the answer and having better quality strikers in the squad should help him be better. In terms of better quality rubbing off on him, competition, and also to ease the pressure of being the main man.
A player improving without playing because better players around him? I'm not sure I can think of one of those, to be honest. I'd love to hear a few examples?
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January 12, 2018, 07:00:41 PM
Reply #170
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MmmBlueRamirez


For it to be mentioned by Sam means it's pretty much done.

The brown envelopes stuffed with unmarked fifties have been exchanged.
Farming Karma like the Dalai Llama


January 12, 2018, 07:02:53 PM
Reply #171
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blargins

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I would have thought it was clear that I was more concerned by our wider players, like Lookman, but Tosun and Walcott are clearly barriers for Calvert-Lewin. Whether or not you rate him is entirely besides the point.
A player improving without playing because better players around him? I'm not sure I can think of one of those, to be honest. I'd love to hear a few examples?

It will be up to DCL to up his game then to prove he should be the main man. The fact he hasn't done it for half a season is why we're buying reinforcements.

As for the other wide players, they are not as good as Walcott yet. They've shown flashes, but they are not consistent enough for a prolonged spell in the team.

Your final question, being around better players should certainly help improve a player. Absolutely. When you learn something, do you learn from someone who knows less or more about the subject than you?
"I wouldn't be up here if I hadn't failed a million times." Nick Foles

January 12, 2018, 07:04:24 PM
Reply #172
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Bluedylan


Point blank disagree with you there. It is absolutely the defining criteria. Without passing that test then you get no further (after that you get into the 'is he the best we can get'/'is he worth the fee' questions. but they're all irrelevant compared to the above.
2 genuine questions about this:
1) Will they be ready to start the first game of next season and actually be better than what we have immediately?
2) The second we put an offer in that is accepted, do you reckon Chelsea/City/Juve/Arsenal would sit back and let us have them?

 
keep reading @KoemansNumberTens , it was cleared up. (although, to your point specifically. What if the weakest players of the top sides are still miles better than our best players? Swerve them because they won't be quite as good for us?)

So should we sign Chris Brunt or James McLean, because I think they've scored more than Lennon?

I think the question should be 'are they sufficiently better than what we have to justify the overall spend?' and will they improve.

Yes, Pavon or Lozano would be ready.

The big clubs don't sign all the best young players. A number of those players realise they need game time to develop. That's why Malcolm joined Bordeaux for example. That's why Lozano went to PSV. So for me, that argument doesn't wash at all.   
Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.

January 12, 2018, 07:07:36 PM
Reply #173
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van der Meyde


It will be up to DCL to up his game then to prove he should be the main man. The fact he hasn't done it for half a season is why we're buying reinforcements.

As for the other wide players, they are not as good as Walcott yet. They've shown flashes, but they are not consistent enough for a prolonged spell in the team.

Your final question, being around better players should certainly help improve a player. Absolutely. When you learn something, do you learn from someone who knows less or more about the subject than you?
Not if I'm not putting it into action, no.

Would still love to hear some examples of players who've improved sat on the bench though.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 07:09:18 PM by van der Meyde »
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January 12, 2018, 07:10:48 PM
Reply #174
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Mick 1995

NSNO Subscriber
So should we sign Chris Brunt or James McLean, because I think they've scored more than Lennon?

I think the question should be 'are they sufficiently better than what we have to justify the overall spend?' and will they improve.

Yes, Pavon or Lozano would be ready.

The big clubs don't sign all the best young players. A number of those players realise they need game time to develop. That's why Malcolm joined Bordeaux for example. That's why Lozano went to PSV. So for me, that argument doesn't wash at all.   

I don't, personally, think goal output is the only factor when judging if a non-striker is better than what we have.
I think, by any metric for those wide positions, Walcott is better than anybody we have. By some way.
So the peanuts we are paying for him doesn't come into it. Being honest, 20m is nothing nowadays (sickening as that is),

RE: 'next best things'. They are a gamble. They may or may not make it. the closer it is to certain that they will make it, the more chance the big clubs are already on their way with a cheque.
Now, obviously i'm not saying don't even bother. We should 100% be trying for that type of player.
I actually think we should be looking at both though.

January 12, 2018, 07:10:49 PM
Reply #175
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TheRam

NSNO Subscriber
I cant look past 19 goals last season at the moment.

If he can at least get double figures next season the that will make a massive difference to where we finish

But, I do still agree with a lot of points people like @Bluedylan are making

 

January 12, 2018, 07:13:26 PM
Reply #176
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ally2


It's annoying as there are so many clubs around Europe that play good football with very good players that they pick up for peanuts. It annoys me that the English game is seen as a money pit, and it annoys me further that we are paying an active part in it (compared to a team like Southampton for example).

On the other hand Allardyce may feel under pressure to deliver results to the owner and the fans so I can understand why he would be happy with this deal.

January 12, 2018, 07:16:46 PM
Reply #177
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Waltzer


So should we sign Chris Brunt or James McLean, because I think they've scored more than Lennon?

I think the question should be 'are they sufficiently better than what we have to justify the overall spend?' and will they improve.

Yes, Pavon or Lozano would be ready.

The big clubs don't sign all the best young players. A number of those players realise they need game time to develop. That's why Malcolm joined Bordeaux for example. That's why Lozano went to PSV. So for me, that argument doesn't wash at all.   

Why does it have to be one or the other with regards to established or up and coming, you can get both, like I think we would if we got Walcott?

We've had Deulofeu, arguably one of the most sought after wingers in the world at that time and that didnt work, weve got Lookman who has massive potential and most teams would be after him, same with Vlasic. Swansea have got Sanchez, who was similar to Gerry, and he looks average at best. At least with Walcott it will give you the opportunity to play the up and coming players as and when it suits, and if they perform better than him then so be it.

January 12, 2018, 07:23:12 PM
Reply #178
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Bluedylan


Why does it have to be one or the other with regards to established or up and coming, you can get both, like I think we would if we got Walcott?

We've had Deulofeu, arguably one of the most sought after wingers in the world at that time and that didnt work, weve got Lookman who has massive potential and most teams would be after him, same with Vlasic. Swansea have got Sanchez, who was similar to Gerry, and he looks average at best. At least with Walcott it will give you the opportunity to play the up and coming players as and when it suits, and if they perform better than him then so be it.

Fair enough mate. We just see it differently.

I feel like it's another 'secure 7th place at best' signing.

We don't have more money than other clubs so for me the only way to crack the top 6 (like Spurs) with less resources is to be cleverer and more astute in our transfers than the big boys.

For me, this is the opposite of that. Obvious, uninspiring and not taking us anywhere special.

I may be totally wrong, and like I say it's just a difference of opinion.
Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.

January 12, 2018, 07:25:31 PM
Reply #179
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blargins

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Not if I'm not putting it into action, no.

Would still love to hear some examples of players who've improved sat on the bench though.

It wasn't a yes or no question.

As a player, do you think you would learn more by being around the likes of Wayne Rooney, Walcott etc or the likes of Shane Long or less than average players like that?

DCL will still get opportunities. He'll also be able to go back to learning at his own pace and not have the pressure to be the main goal scorer in one of the top clubs in the country. That will be of greater benefit to him.
"I wouldn't be up here if I hadn't failed a million times." Nick Foles