September 18, 2019, 12:18:21 PM

Author Topic: Bid rejected for Lookman  (Read 44542 times)

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July 20, 2018, 05:09:37 AM
Reply #150
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Tony Clifton


Smells like a low budget version of the John Stones "saga" this.  Sorry, feeling a bit like a Negative Nancy tonight.  I might feel bit better if someone at Everton publicly tells Rangnick they'll wring his neck if he doesn't shut the fuck up about Lookman.


July 20, 2018, 05:14:23 AM
Reply #151
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Alanvideo


From Lookman's point of view he would be quite well established at Leipzig and more or less sure of a starting place.  At Everton he's yet to prove himself and it's a tougher league so maybe he's not confident of holding down a place. Three years left on his deal ,he should use this season to earn an improved contract here. 
We are special ,we are Everton.

July 20, 2018, 06:14:36 AM
Reply #152
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American Evertonian


I think he's probably right, there will be money there. I just don't think he likes the idea of training 30 first team players everyday ha

God I know. Reading all of these articles about who to sell and who to keep for the 25 man squad is exhausting. So many potential senior level players without even buying anyone.
Are we there yet?


July 20, 2018, 06:21:13 AM
Reply #153
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Redartin


I really don't think so. My valuation -- and I think most others too -- has nothing to do with that first goal. It is rather based on his play for us (where his talent has definitely been apparent), his performances during the u-20 World Cup, and, especially, his terrific play in Germany.
I don't think he is "only potential right now." He is not a player being called up from the U-18s. He has proved himself -- first at the lower levels and then in the Bundesliga. His performances in Germany, in particular, have moved him beyond "potential only." Just look how bad Liepzig want him.
Not having a pop at you, I'm agreeing with most of what you say, just putting some reality in the mix.
In one and a half seasons, as a 17 year old, he made 45 appearances and scored 10 goals for Charlton in both the Championship and League One. So yes, he certainly had it in the lower leagues.
He came to us for 7.5m rising to 11m with add ons and he stayed for 12 months.
He made 24 appearances for the first team in all competitions, totalling 809 minutes, and scored 3 goals. One against City on his debut and two against Apollon in the EPL. (Scored in 2 out of 24 games) so not exactly setting the place on fire, but that could be down to the managers.
Under Unsworth he also made 3 appearances for the U23 team, totalling 220 minutes and also scored 3 goals. So he can also produce the goods at Under 23 level and under a different manager.
He then went to Leipzig and made 11 appearances, totalling 575 minutes scoring 5 goals and 3 assists. These goals were against teams in the lower half of the Bundisliga, 2 against Wolfsburg who were relegated. He never played against your Bayern Munich or Schalke or Dortmund so we can't say how he would have performed against the best teams in Germany. But against lower opposition he can certainly produce the goods.
I don't think he is in Silva's first 11 plans, whereas if he goes to Germany he'll probably start each week. He's young, probably headstrong, (he dug the heels in about going to Derby), he more that likely wants to just play regular football. I don't think he is buying into the wonderful Brands/Siva project and the fact he remained on the bench against Bury was significant. I think he will go. It would be a bit ironical of Marco to force him to stay after his Watford scenario.
Just a thought if he does go for 20m euro do Charlton get a cut?

July 20, 2018, 06:22:05 AM
Reply #154
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efcforlife


To me the lad just isn't focused on an Everton career.

I'd say 20mill and above and I'm happy.

July 20, 2018, 08:34:06 AM
Reply #155
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howard1334


Good stuff from Silva. Should stay then unless he really kicks up a storm or Liepzig comes in with something like 22m +.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/marco-silva-confirms-ademola-lookman-14930848


July 20, 2018, 09:01:36 AM
Reply #156
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kramer0


Iím not selling him unless the offer is ridiculous (i.e. more than Leipzig can afford).

Just look at what Silva did with Richarlison early last season. I think Lookman has that sort of potential given the opportunity to play in a similar system.

It would be another sucker move to sell and attempt to replace him for double the cost with Zaha, Lozano, or Richarlison. Work with what you have.

(And he wonít kick up a fuss if heís playing football regularly here.)

July 20, 2018, 09:14:29 AM
Reply #157
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blueToffee

NSNO Subscriber
Good stuff from Silva. Should stay then unless he really kicks up a storm or Liepzig comes in with something like 22m +.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/marco-silva-confirms-ademola-lookman-14930848

Just normal press comments isn't it?

"He's our player" is the most empty comment ever isn't it? I mean how many times have you heard that before a transfer?

I don't know which way this one will go, but it sounds like he wants off and that's rarely a good starting point. On the plus side as it's happening behind the scenes it's not too late for him to backtrack.

That said, while yes I'd like him to get a chance here, I genuinely am a little unsure what his potential contribution for the season would be. I can't imagine he's moved that far along in his development within that short loan spell.

July 20, 2018, 10:16:33 AM
Reply #158
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howard1334


Just normal press comments isn't it?

"He's our player" is the most empty comment ever isn't it? I mean how many times have you heard that before a transfer?

I don't know which way this one will go, but it sounds like he wants off and that's rarely a good starting point. On the plus side as it's happening behind the scenes it's not too late for him to backtrack.

That said, while yes I'd like him to get a chance here, I genuinely am a little unsure what his potential contribution for the season would be. I can't imagine he's moved that far along in his development within that short loan spell.

To an extent, I think you right: It is just run of the mill press stuff. But I think it still has import nonetheless. The silence was much more worrisome, and suggested that we would be selling in due course. By coming out with the statement, I think it draws a bit of a line in the sand, and suggests that we won't be parting ways with Lookman for a paltry, sub 20m, sum.

How can you not see what his potential contribution is?

July 20, 2018, 10:34:51 AM
Reply #159
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blueToffee

NSNO Subscriber
To an extent, I think you right: It is just run of the mill press stuff. But I think it still has import nonetheless. The silence was much more worrisome, and suggested that we would be selling in due course. By coming out with the statement, I think it draws a bit of a line in the sand, and suggests that we won't be parting ways with Lookman for a paltry, sub 20m, sum.

How can you not see what his potential contribution is?

Well it's potential at the moment. That's kinda the point. He's not really proven anything as yet. I thought he looked good but raw in the limited appearances he's played for us so far, one game he's good, another he might be invisible...that's what you can get with a younger player though in particular. I'd play him every day of the week ahead of Bolaise or Mirallas, however I'd like us ideally to have a player a little further along in their development too that give us some real options to rotate between. I don't really want to have to rely on Lookman and I'd like to sell Bolasie and Mirallas.

If he plays the whole season though, I really don't know what sort of return we might get from him assists/goals wise. He might get a handful, he might get into double figures.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 10:37:39 AM by blueToffee »

July 20, 2018, 10:44:18 AM
Reply #160
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howard1334


Well it's potential at the moment. That's kinda the point. He's not really proven anything as yet. I thought he looked good but raw in the limited appearances he's played for us so far, one game he's good, another he might be invisible...that's what you can get with a younger player though in particular. I'd play him every day of the week ahead of Bolaise or Mirallas, however I'd like us ideally to have a player a little further along in their development too that give us some real options to rotate between. I don't really want to have to rely on Lookman and I'd like to sell Bolasie and Mirallas.

If he plays the whole season though, I really don't know what sort of return we might get from him assists/goals wise. He might get a handful, he might get into double figures.

I get that he only played about half a season with RB Leipzig, and that there is a danger in putting too much weight on small sample sizes (see, e.g., Sandro), but you can't just ignore his play in Germany (as you seem to be), especially when he truly was excellent for Leipzig, getting 5 goals and 3 assists in just 11 matches. When you then also consider that there are some pretty strong arguments to be made that he was criminally underused last season by Koeman and Allardyce, don't you think that you might, possibly, be downplaying his potential impact a bit?

Also, maybe I am just more reckless than you are, but I would rather we do rely heavily on players like Lookman that have the potential -- even if it is not yet realized -- to become top 4 level talents, rather than older, more reliable players that don't. We can't attract top 4 talents, so if we are going to climb the ranks of the Prem, we are going to need to develop them. Indeed, RB Liepzig provides a model that we should be trying to emulate. And I would be very disappointed if we go and do the exact opposite by selling one of our players to them.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 10:55:30 AM by howard1334 »

July 20, 2018, 11:06:42 AM
Reply #161
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blueToffee

NSNO Subscriber
I get that he only played about half a season with RB Leipzig, and that there is a danger in putting too much weight on small sample sizes (see, e.g., Sandro), but you can't just ignore his play in Germany (as you seem to be), especially when he truly was excellent for Leipzig, getting 5 goals and 3 assists in just 11 matches. When you then also consider that there are some pretty strong arguments to be made that he was criminally underused last season by Koeman and Allardyce, don't you think that you might, possibly, be downplaying his potential impact a bit?

Also, maybe I am just more reckless than you are, but I would rather we do rely heavily on players like Lookman that have the potential -- even if it is not yet realized -- to become top 4 level talents, rather than older, more reliable players that don't. We can't attract top 4 talents, so if we are going to climb the ranks of the Prem, we are going to need to develop them. Indeed, RB Liepzig provides a model that we should be trying to emulate. And I would be very disappointed if we go and do the exact opposite by selling one of our players to them.

I'm not factoring it in as I didn't see any of those games, I don't know the opposition he was up against. Were they tap ins or 30 yarders? He was playing for the second best team in the country toward the end of the season so was he getting a ton of chances versus teams that maybe had nothing left to play for? Stats without context don't tell you all that much (as you point out with Sandro). Plus, frankly it is a different league and it's not a 1:1 with the PL.

Equally maybe he tore it up there and scored a brace against Bayern...basically I can't feel I can personally rate a player without being able to see them myself. All I know about his time there was decent stats and good reviews but I don't really know any deeper than that. So it makes me a bit unsure about going into the season with him as lets say first choice without really good other options as last time I saw Lookman he did seem pretty raw.

I'd be happy with Silva starting him in the first game of the season, I just want other options too. That aren't our current options.

July 20, 2018, 12:22:54 PM
Reply #162
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Paddockoldie


The only problem with that is Lookman doesnít want that chance with us, he is adamant he wants to stay with Leipzig.

Where did you read that?

July 20, 2018, 12:39:34 PM
Reply #163
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howard1334


I'm not factoring it in as I didn't see any of those games, I don't know the opposition he was up against. Were they tap ins or 30 yarders? He was playing for the second best team in the country toward the end of the season so was he getting a ton of chances versus teams that maybe had nothing left to play for? Stats without context don't tell you all that much (as you point out with Sandro). Plus, frankly it is a different league and it's not a 1:1 with the PL.

Equally maybe he tore it up there and scored a brace against Bayern...basically I can't feel I can personally rate a player without being able to see them myself. All I know about his time there was decent stats and good reviews but I don't really know any deeper than that. So it makes me a bit unsure about going into the season with him as lets say first choice without really good other options as last time I saw Lookman he did seem pretty raw.

I'd be happy with Silva starting him in the first game of the season, I just want other options too. That aren't our current options.

Okay, fine. But maybe it would have been worth noting those points originally rather than ignoring his play in Germany entirely. Just b/c you don't posses relevant information does not make it irrelevant. And it is a bit weird that you are seemingly trying to spin your own lack of knowledge as some sort of defense in your favor during an online debate, especially when it suggests that you are not really in the best position to evaluate his potential impact on our team.

And for the record, while I did not watch any of his games live, I did read each review and watch every highlight (including all his goals and assists) from his time in Germany that I could get my hands on, and I am basing my own evaluation, in part, on that information.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 12:51:01 PM by howard1334 »

July 20, 2018, 12:46:12 PM
Reply #164
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Ramjam


Fuck Leipzig, pay the market value or he stays, havenít we learned anything from the Lukaku debacle. And as someone pointed out earlier these players have to much of a say with contracts, they want them until it suits them to break it. wonít leave while they are playing like shit (Klaassen) but someone with potential like Lookman canít get away quick enough as he seems to think the grass is greener in Germany. Clubs canít win with these fuckin selfish millionaires
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