October 22, 2019, 12:41:23 PM

Author Topic: Goodison for Gomes?  (Read 122556 times)

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December 05, 2018, 04:35:42 PM
Reply #60
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brap2

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Ok sound so, I think the most interesting thing about the stats ran is mentioning, is like he says, the difference in perception between the two.

Donít think the most ardent statsmachine would want Tom in the side over Andre.

Neither have played 1000 mins yet this season, let alone a full season.

Rightly pointed out, Gomes has played against top teams. But if you were a side looking for very specific stuff, e.g a player who passes forward a lot, it shows how stats are a better gauge than the eye, because to the eye you would say gomes blows Tom off the park at that, but like it or not a good deal of that opinion boils down to perception and unconscious bias.

Stats never tell the full story however and you would be an idiot to scout purely off a spreadsheet, but I am always greatly entertained by these random fellas off the internet who are like - Iíve not looked into it, Iím not going to look into it, I barely even really understand it, but this is BULLSHIT.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.


December 05, 2018, 04:42:03 PM
Reply #61
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brap2

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Mate thereís more to chance creation than passing a ball directly into the feet of someone who takes a shot at goal, or whatever the measure is for however those stats are measured.

I strongly agree. But passing the ball to a player that can take a shot is you know, pretty arguably the most straight forward and importantly element of creating a chance innit. I mean I know movement and dragging players away and being calm in posession and the playing the lads that plays the player who plays the pass is all extremely important but - I mean if heís that good at passing the ball and heís playing in the same position and heís playing in a better side and weíre in better form then - he should be better than Morgan Schneiderlin or Idrissa Gueye at this very simplistic measurement eventually right? Is that wrong to want that? Play more passes into the box?

Fact is the side in general doesnít have many players who do that. Itís one of the most straight forward things in football Iíd say and I donít think you need to count them in decimal points per 90 or visualise it on a screen - do you have players who can create a chance during open play? Do you have players who can create GOOD chances during open play?

The more the better.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 05, 2018, 04:48:52 PM
Reply #62
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brap2

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yeah, the figures at the moment don't deter from Gomes, it just shows that Davies has been better than a lot of swivel-eyed loons think.

If Davies was able to ride tackles out and create separation between him and the tackler, then he would be a much better rated player and in general be easier to play him. Heís quite small though and not technically that good, while Gomes is a unit and has fantastic feet.

Would he be better playing it quicker more sometimes? Probably yeah.

Does it look impressive when he rides out tackles and comes out with the ball looking like heís walking the shop for his paper? Certainly bloody does.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.


December 05, 2018, 05:38:25 PM
Reply #63
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brap2

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Despite saying Davies isnt too bad you also have to see how highly he is regarded from outside Goodison. In an age where if you're English, have played in the Premiership (or not) you get called up for England he is still yet to do so, whereas players like Winks, RLC, Maddison, Sancho, Mount have all been called up despite playing significantly less than Davies in the top flight, sadly there is probably a reason for this.

Especially since he got picked up for senior training when he was first breaking through.

Englandís centre mid is pretty shocking, and youíd have to say heís miles away from a call up.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 05, 2018, 06:24:07 PM
Reply #64
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brap2

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Yeah all fair points (and now realise I replied to your comment before reading what followed and so am in some sense rehashing what's already been discussed).

Personally though think this type of analysis ignores things like who Gomes has around him, where he's been told to play and other instructions he's been given. Maybe you can tell me but I'd imagine the stats showing we're trying to create a lot more down the wings and cut/cross in, rather than passing through the middle.

I do think you're picking up on one area where you could say Gomes isn't showing anything exceptional and that's the threaded, creative forward pass that only a Barry or a Rooney has the vision to see and play consistently. I think it's too early to say whether he has that in the tank. It could simply be a case of him taking more chances as he gets more comfortable with the PL so we'll see more soon. Or it could be Silva telling him don't you give the fucking ball away when you've got 4-6 players bombing ahead of you. Or that Sigg or RIcharlison aren't making the right runs in the middle into space for him to pass it to. Dunno, I'd have to pay more attention.

Nah itís all fair, Iím being very black and white when thereís no need to be particularly. Weíre all enjoying watching him and so we should, heís looking superb at the minute.

You are right about the wide build up. Definitely a feature of silvaís football.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 05, 2018, 09:57:02 PM
Reply #65
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brap2

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Are we sure that that's a choice?

Choice or not, itís a feature.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.


December 06, 2018, 04:48:03 AM
Reply #66
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brap2

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@kramer0 come on lad, accept you were wrong like Brap has.

I absolutely have not.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 06, 2018, 04:50:49 AM
Reply #67
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brap2

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Think itís a choice.

Players seem to be encouraged to cross the ball rather than just go back all the time.

Also in preseason when it was more 433, the wider CMs were overloading in the wing areas rather than funnelling through the middle.

Not a huge fan considering the lack of natural striker.

Also why were we not pressing tonight?

We had 52 crosses tonight, kin hell!

My kingdom for a midfielder who can create a goal scoring chance from open play, rather than take ten touches then pass it to gueye.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 06, 2018, 02:37:28 PM
Reply #68
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brap2

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I imagine most of you gave him man of the match there.

Think that game was a pretty good example of why we need more creativity from open play.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 06, 2018, 03:04:25 PM
Reply #69
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brap2

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Motm for me probably richarlison, worked hard and took his goal well.

Side in general disappointing but not surprising - we struggle to break teams down from open play.

Gomes good first half, but in general the game highlighted the issue of our lack of progressive passers.

Having a nice tidy midfielder who can turn their striker three times then play it sideways to gueye doesnít help all that much in those games.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 06, 2018, 03:33:38 PM
Reply #70
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brap2

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Youíre trying too hard now.

He was the best player on the park by an absolute fucking mile.



I donít have anything add really other than to repeat that last night was a good example of why we need more progressive passers in midfield.

Once again your cm Ďruns the showí and you fail to create meaningful chances against a bottom half side.

Maybe a striker who makes good runs will help and I just need to accept Gomes is a good, tidy 6 with a conservative passing range who can get up the pitch well.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 06, 2018, 03:58:46 PM
Reply #71
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brap2

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Donít get me started on Sig!
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 06, 2018, 04:09:22 PM
Reply #72
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brap2

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What have I said thatís so wrong? Mad mentality this you know.

I havenít even directly criticised him! Just on last nights showing, which we know already, we donít have enough creativity in midfield.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 06, 2018, 04:26:56 PM
Reply #73
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brap2

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Thatís true, but there were four other midfielders on the pitch and you seem to be putting all the blame on Gomes, when he was actually the most progressive player on the park.

Because heís the one weíre considering spending 30m+ on!

Sigurdsson Iíve made my feelings clear on.

Tosun Iíve made my feelings clear on.

Lookman has a bad game and the case for starting Walcott became a bit clearer imo.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 06, 2018, 07:05:44 PM
Reply #74
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brap2

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But he has so much more to offer in other aspects of his game.

You really watched him last night and came away thinking heís not progressive enough?



I thought the side in general is not progressive enough yeah. Bad at breaking down a low block and relying on smashing crosses in.

Heís our main cm tasked with driving forward and setting up attacks.

I think heíll work well in a counter attacking side but when weíre dominating the ball at home, itís a war of attrition. Could just as easily be in the silva tactics thread.

I honestly feel last nights game is interesting viewed through the prism of the convo you started actually - heís tasty but is he progressive enough with the ball?

Going to be honest, the thing thatís followed him around his career so far is that he flatters to deceive. I think itís a BIT unfair, but if weíre talking about spending big money on a peak age CM...what do you need him to do in this side?
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.