Colin Harvey Interview

[lightbox=http://www.nsno.co.uk/e107_plugins/autogallery/Gallery/NSNO%20Gallery/Everton%20Legends/Colin%20Harvey/Colin_Harvey_Cigerette_card.jpg|Colin Harvey||left][/lightbox]Colin Harvey’s career in football spanned well over 40 years, and for the vast majority of those years, he was involved in Everton Football Club, from apprentice to player, from coach to manager – Harvey found himself fulfilling almost every role at some point.

Making his debut at 17 in the San Siro Stadium in Italy, at the other end of his career Harvey was responsible for developing the talents of a player everyone hoped would become an Everton legend, one Wayne Rooney.

We caught up with Colin on a sunny day last summer and enjoyed a few hours in his company…

You came through the Youth System at Everton, how would you compare the system which you came through to that which the club has today?

Well we were basically on the ground staff when I joined the “youth system” at Everton, and some Monday mornings we didn’t know whether we’d be training or whether we’d be sweeping out the stands after the last home game. Everyone was based at Goodison Park back then, as there was no changing facilities at Bellefield, so we’d go in of a Monday morning and quite often we’d be brushing out the stands. Mind you, that had its perks as well, as quite often people would drop a bit of money!

We had a lot more to do as well though. We had kits to look after, boots to clean and all that sort of stuff which the young lads don’t do now, so we were basically part of the ground staff until the apprentice scheme came in just after I arrived. I’d been at the club a while, and sometimes I’d have played football for my school in the morning and then in Everton’s “C” team of an afternoon.

It’s a lot different now, the lads are taken on at a much younger age, and they’re there as footballers. They’re not there to sweep out the stands or look after other players’ kits.

I think the key thing is though, that if you’re good enough then you’re good enough, and it doesn’t really matter what the coaches do for you. From the minute these kids walk into the football club, the coaches will have an idea of whether or not they’ll make it.

You’d had a trial for Liverpool before joining Everton – were you ever seriously tempted to join the other side?

Yeah, I did, my uncle arranged it for me. He was in the pub trade and obviously knew quite a few people, so organised it for me to go down there one Tuesday to play in a game, and I was invited back the following week. In the meantime, however, Everton had asked me to go along. So I went there and played in an evening game on the pitch that was where the Park End car park is now, and was invited back there as well.

Obviously, being an Evertonian there wasn’t really a choice to make, but I think if Everton hadn’t come in for me then I would have gone to Liverpool because as a lad you just want to play football, but you want to play football for your own team.

You made your debut at the San Siro in Milan in front of over 80,000 Italians. How do you prepare for something like that?

Well, I played on the Saturday for the reserves, and was told to report on the Monday morning to go on the coach with the first team. There were three of us, Roy Parnell, myself, and a lad called Barry Reece who sadly died not long after, and we all travelled over with the first team. We knew there was a place going, so we knew one of us would be in the team, but I didn’t think it would be me as I was the youngest, so I just got on with carrying the kit skips like I usually did.

It wasn’t until the Wednesday afternoon that we were told who would be in the team either, so the preparation wasn’t that much really, which was probably a good thing though, as it didn’t give me any time to get nervous. We got beat 1-0 though to the eventual winners, but I think I did alright, especially considering the circumstances. I didn’t think I played brilliantly, but I think I did alright.

It was great the way it all happened, making your debut in the San Siro was just schoolboy stuff, the kind of things you read about in storybooks, but I was back in the reserves the following Saturday for the mini-derby.

[newpage=Playing Days]

It was another year or so before you secured yourself a place in the first team again, were you disappointed at being back in the reserves after such a massive debut?

No, no. I mean, I had to break through as the likes of Roy Vernon, Alex Young, Jimmy Gabriel and Dennis Stevens were all in front of me and they were all seasoned professionals, and the season before they’d won the league. So it was a case of having to try and break into a side full of internationals and league Champions. It wasn’t as if I was trying to get into a struggling side either, as we were up there challenging for the title again in the season when I made my debut.

You were never billed as a goalscorer, but you scored some memorable goals. Which was your favourite?

I got a couple of goals, a few good ones in there, but no, I was never really billed as a goalscoring midfielder. Obviously the semi-final of 1966 stands out as in important goal as we beat Manchester United at the old Burnden Park, Bolton Wanderer’s ground, 1-0. Not long after I’d scored Alex Young hit the post, and I’m glad it didn’t go in as it would have taken the shine off my goal!

I scored in my first derby game as well, when we won 4-0, although we’d gone there as real underdogs as we were hit by quite a few injuries before the game, but we were 4-0 up at half time, and I’d scored one of the goals. So I thought derby games were easy then! We went there the season after though and got beat 5-0 so I learned my lesson there.

You were an ever-present in the FA Cup winning side of 1966, scoring the goal which took us to the final, what was the feeling going into that final?

Oh it was fantastic. There was a lot more glory to the cup than there is now I feel, it’s almost been pushed to the back-burner for some clubs, but then there was the Championship and the FA Cup and they were the two competitions you went all out to win. Obviously you wanted to be the Champions, as that meant you were the very, very best, but to win the Cup you had to be a good side as well. To get in a Cup Final will probably go down as one of the biggest highlights of my career.

How did Harry Catterick prepare the players?

He was very meticulous in everything he did. At that time pitches were nothing like as good as they are now, so you’d go to Wembley, which was an absolutely fantastic pitch which only got used once or twice a year, and it was like playing on carpet compared to the baked mud we were used to at the end of the season! But Harry found a really nice pitch, and we used it all week in the build up to the game and we got used to playing on a good surface.

We went down on the Friday afternoon, and Harry had some fairly big decisions to make because Fred Pickering was still feeling a knee injury and although he was fit, Mike Trebilcock had done well in the semi-final and Harry left Fred out, which was a big decision. But, Mike went on and scored two goals and got us back into the game and proved Harry made the right decision.

And what does it feel like to win an FA Cup as a player?

Oh well, as I say, after winning the league it was the pinnacle of English football. Everyone wants to win the FA Cup, and when the draw was made on a Monday it was the highlight of the week and everyone would sit and listen on the radio to see who we’d get in the next round. It was a big intense build up, and to actually play for your team who haven’t won it since 1933 was absolutely fantastic.

The following season, Alan Ball and Howard Kendall joined, and the three of you went on to become what many describe as the finest midfield Everton have ever had – what do you think the key was to that midfield’s success?

Well I’d actually played against them both at junior level when Alan was at Blackpool and Howard was at Preston, and we used to play against each other in the Lancashire leagues. Then I played against them both at reserve level, and against Bally at first team level when we played against Blackpool, and I knew what great players they both were. Then, at the start of the season, after we’d won the Cup the previous season and England had won the World Cup, and it had been a tremendous summer, we played Liverpool in the Charity Shield. We won 1-0 in the end, but they’d absolutely dominated us in midfield, and the following weekend Harry [Catterick] went out and bought Bally, and all of a sudden I was sat next to a World Cup winner in the dressing room!

It was just one of them things when he arrived, he was a “Ball of Fire” in the way he played, and he was one of those players who made you want to be as good as him, who makes you train hard to become a better player. I never quite made it being as good as him, but playing with him definitely made me a better player.

Another year later and you were back at Wembley in the Cup Final. Was there a feeling of confidence going into the game?

Well, I’d been out for a few games, and I’d missed a cup tie as well at Leicester, but I got back into the side at the end of the season we were going strong. We’d also been to West Brom not long before the final and beaten them 6-2 at their place and dominated them at every turn, so while I’m not saying there was any complacency there, we definitely felt that it was a game we could win. It was a game we should have won as well, we had the better chances, but it went into extra time and we lost by that one goal.

We had both sides of the coin in two years though didn’t we! The elation of winning it and the deflation of losing it two years later, and that sense of deflation was probably as low as the elation of winning was high. We got to the final, and you can look at it as a great achievement to get there, but to get to the final and not win was a real blow.

Then, in 1970, you were a crucial part of the Championship winning side, one that was tipped to dominate English football for a long time to come. Where do you think it went wrong?

Well we had that great period between ’66 and ’71 where we were either there or there abouts, Cup Finals, semi-finals, we were in the quarter-finals of the European Cup. We actually got knocked out of the European Cup on the Wednesday and then got beat by Liverpool in the FA Cup semi-final on the Saturday. Both were games we deserved to win as well, so to get knocked out of both competitions made that a killer of a week!

Some of the football we played was fantastic though, and it’s strange that the team broke up, as you never really see it coming. I’d had a few injury problems, which eventually led to a hip replacement years later, and obviously there were other things going on as well, and we just didn’t realise the potential that the team had.

What was your reaction to Alan Ball being sold?

Surprise! For four or five years he’d probably been the best midfield player in the country, but the manager makes decisions and says who stays and who goes – and he made a very bold decision there, which perhaps didn’t quite turn out.

[newpage=The White Pele]

You were nicknamed the “White Pele” – is that a name you are proud of?

That was a funny one actually, I worked for hours and hours on my skills, apart from doing it at Bellefield I’d go home and play with a tennis ball in the garden. I suppose the skills came from a combination of hard work, and being surrounded by good players as well, and “The White Pele” thing was a banner that was put up after I’d left. When I was told about it I was made-up to be thought of in those sort of terms by the fans.

You were a great dribbler and passer of the ball, did you ever come up against opposition players who would try and muscle you out of the game?

Yeah, the game then was different, you could get away with a lot more in terms of the type of tackles that, the lateness of tackles – it took a lot to get booked or sent off in those days! The derby game at Anfield this season was a prime example of the way things have changed. There were eight bookings and two players were sent off, if that referee had taken charge of a game in my playing days there would have been fifteen to twenty players booked or sent off!

I was happy to play against anyone though to be honest, I fancied my chances in the tackle and I knew I had the ability to take people on with the ball and get round them. I was never particularly frightened of anyone, I just got on with it really.

[b]Who was the best player you played against?[/]b

George Best. I played against him at ‘B’ team level when I was seventeen, and I played against him lots of times in the first team and he was the best I played against. There were a lot of players I played against that were very, very good – but George was easily the best.

You were only capped once by England, something that still mystifies a lot of people today. Were you ever told why you didn’t get more caps?

Yeah, what it was at the time was the fact that Alf Ramsey was the manager and he was a very loyal man, and he ran the England team like a club side almost. He didn’t just drop players willy-nilly, and he didn’t just give caps away willy-nilly either, it was a very close-nit bunch he had in the England set-up. To break through and get into it was a big challenge. I was fortunate though, I managed it once, and there are a lot of great players who never managed it at all.

I’m very proud of the fact that I played for England and I was disappointed I didn’t get more caps.

Injuries cut short your time at Everton, and you went to Sheffield Wednesday in 1974. When you went, were you making plans for your future career?

Not really no. I hadn’t given it a great deal of though, I had a couple of uncles in the pub trade and I thought that maybe I’d do something with them or something like that. I’d started taking the coaching badges as well though, but when I finished with Sheffield Wednesday I did a little bit here and there in the pub trade – but then the opportunity came to go back to Everton, which was a fantastic opportunity and I jumped at the chance!

Bob Latchford joined not long before you left, how did he compare to strikers you played with before, like Joe Royle?

Bob was a very, very good player. I’d played with some great strikers, Joe Royle as you mention, and I think I probably enjoyed playing with Joe more than Bob, as he was a player you could play off of a bit more, whereas Bob was more an out and out goalscorer. I didn’t play a great deal with Bob though, which was a shame.

You returned in 1976 to take charge of the youth team, and you were made coach under Howard Kendall in 1983, what was it like working with Howard as manager as opposed to player?

It was fantastic. Obviously we’d played together and we were good friends, and he’d asked me to go to Blackburn with him when he was there, but I was enjoying myself at Everton in charge of the reserves, so I stayed put. And when Howard arrived at Goodison I was still in charge of the reserve team, and after a while he promoted me to work with him in the first team, which was fantastic.

[newpage=The Kendall era and beyond]

The early days were hard times under Howard, what was the atmosphere like within the team during those times?

It was a period of time at the club when things weren’t right, but then you don’t become the manager of a big club like Everton if things are going right! We battled through it though, and Howard made some very good signing and got some good players in and developed a very good team.

We knew we had good players, they were all hard workers and it was just a case of developing them really, and things were starting to happen to give us hope. The best of all of course was winning the FA Cup in 84, which is always the hardest thing to do – winning your first trophy, which I’ll tell you about later!

Kevin Brock/ Stoke/ Andy Gray signing, Peter Reid making his debut/ Colin Harvey getting promoted to first team duties – when did you think was the turning point?

Yeah, I mean if you put them all together it’s then they will all create great belief, but for me it was important at the end of the season to win a trophy as that’s where the real belief comes from for me. The fact that you’ve won something, as a player gives you great confidence, and as a manager the confidence is a great thing to work with.

You were known for being a firm but fair coach, do you feel you deserved that?

Well …… yeah, I think I did really. I’d always set myself very high standards as a player and as a trainer, and I suppose I just applied the same standards to the players. What I wanted from myself, I wanted from other people as well, and the response was always very good.

As coach of the FA Cup winning side in 1984, how did that compare to the feeling of playing in a FA Cup winning side?

I think everything has it’s own level of enjoyment, but that was a battle for Everton as we hadn’t won anything for a while, and we knew that the players we had there were good players, and the Cup in 1984 was the catalyst for the success afterwards. Once that happened, even though we started the 84-85 campaign and lost our first couple of games, you could tell there was something there. We’d given ourselves 40 games to win the league instead of 42, and as it turned out we did it. We had a great bunch of players and had some great times.

How were you preparing the players for it, did you take anything from the way Harry Catterick prepared your team of 1966?

I don’t think we did consciously, but on a sub-conscious level we did, but Howard was his own person, and he developed in his own way. Harry was a disciplinarian which I suppose rubbed off on me to an extent, but Howard was his own man and he did things his own way.

The following season, Everton won the league, and our only European trophy. What was the feeling like at Everton that season?

By then the confidence was so high that the belief was that they were the best team in the country and they were dying to get into Europe and prove that they were a force there as well. Obviously the next step for them was to test themselves in the European Cup, which sadly never came because of what happened at Heysel which took us out of Europe for five years.

The togetherness was evident, and was captured on camera in the FA Cup semi-final against Luton at Villa Park, when Kevin Sheedy scored the equaliser and the whole bench jumped up together.

That was a great day, and there is a great photo of the bench all getting up together which I’ve got at home. It was the full bench all together, with myself and Howard, and John Bailey, and it’s great to look at and think back. That goal brought us back to Wembley again, and getting there is a tough task, and the elation of getting through the previous rounds and back to Wembley is fantastic.

The following season, Gary Lineker joined, and was renowned for not being the best trainer, did you get frustrated with him at all?

He scored goals though didn’t he! He wasn’t a bad trainer as such, he was just one of those players who knew what they had to do on Saturday, and he did it very well. He scored a lot of goals, and important ones as well. You knew on a Saturday that if the ball was in a certain place, Gary Lineker would pop up and put the ball in the back of the net

That season we were beaten to the double by Liverpool, losing in the FA Cup Final and the Championship being decided on the final day of the season, how did that feel?

That’s one way of looking at it, but the other way of looking at it is that we just got beat in the Cup Final and just got pipped to the league, so we did lose out – but only just. You’ve been knocking on the door for both competitions, so we can still look at that as a good season, as we only just lost out on two trophies.

In 1987, we won the League again and then Howard left. How long before the end of the season did you know Howard was going, and was it planned that you would take over?

He’d made his decision a long time before, and he was actually going to leave the previous season because Barcelona came in for him, but then Terry Venables decided to have another year out there, so Howard stayed at Everton. When the Athletic Bilbao job came up, it was the challenge that Howard wanted. He’d had the taste of European football, and there didn’t look like there was any chance of getting that again with an English club for a long time.

How long did the decision take to accept the job as manager?

It didn’t take very long. I was there on the spot, and I’d been asked the season before when Howard was thinking of going to Barcelona, so the decision was very easy to make. I knew it was going to be a different ball game, stepping away from being the coach to being the manager which was a completely new area to go into.

We lost a few important players during your time as manager, and a lot of people feel that the lack of European football was a major factor in that – do you agree?

Oh yes. Rangers were in the European Cup, so it was a major opportunity for them to go and play in European competitions again and play for a top team in Scotland, as at the time Graeme Souness was collecting players from everywhere!

You signed Tony Cottee, as the club’s record signing, and he went on to score almost 100 goals for Everton – would you say he was your best signing as manager?

He was a very good signing, and he’s a good lad, Tony. You go through the signings, and obviously you make mistakes, but I like to think I made a few good signings in my time as manager. I thought Stuart McCall was a good signing, Pat Nevin did a good job, and Martin Keown was a good signing too. Obviously there were mistakes as well, I perhaps signed players who I thought were going to be good enough but then just turned out not to be, that’s just part of the job as manager I suppose.

There were one or two that I thought “Christ, what have I done here” though, I think probably Mike Milligan comes to mind on that one, as after watching him a few times I thought he could do a job. Don’t get me wrong, Mike was a very good player and did a great job for Oldham, but he just wasn’t an Everton player. But I hold my hands up to all of my mistakes, it’s sometimes not an easy thing to do, but it has to be done.

During your time as manager, we never finished below 9th place, finishing in what would be European places in today’s Premiership – do you feel that criticism of your time is unfair?

I think just coming off the back of being Champions made it appear worse, I think we were fourth, eighth and sixth in the League in my seasons in charge. Then we were beaten in the Simod Cup Final, beaten in the League Cup semi-final by Arsenal who then went on to win it, and then beaten in the Final of the FA Cup in 1989 – so we were challenging for things. As I said before though, the hardest thing to do is to win your first trophy, and I was desperate to do it but never quite managed it. And there’s only one person to blame, and that’s me, as I was the manager and made all the decisions but just couldn’t get that first trophy under my belt.

In 1989 you managed Everton in the FA Cup Final – how did that compare to being there as player and coach?

It wasn’t really any different to be honest. It was like any other cup final, it’s always hard to get there, and then harder again to win it. It came at the back of a very traumatic period in Merseyside football with the Hillsbrough disaster, and I’m not making excuses, but that definitely added another aspect to the game.

I thought that on the day we did quite well, and watching it again, I think we did deserved to win it, but the, you don’t always win everything you deserve to! It was a disappointment I must admit.

Stuart McCall, one of your signings, became the first substitute to score twice in a Cup Final, only to have Ian Rush match his feat and win the game for them. How did that feel as manager to watch?

I was glad Stuart scored the goals, but I was just glad we got the equaliser as I thought ‘Well, we’ve got the equaliser, are we going to go on and win it now?’ but it wasn’t to be. You go into the Cup Final and you’re desperate to win it, and there’s only one team that can come out as winners, but unfortunately that year it wasn’t for us.

It didn’t make it any easier that it was that lot either, you hate losing, but losing to them always makes it a little bit worse.

Were you disappointed that players like Stuart McCall, Pat Nevin and Mike Milligan never seemed hit the same heights at Everton as they had at their previous clubs?

I thought Pat did OK, but never quite did what he did with Chelsea. Ray Atteveld was another who I thought could have done better at Everton, Stephan Rehn as well. None of it was because the players didn’t want to do it for Everton, I think it was just circumstances at the time.

Did anyone ever turn down a move to Everton when you were manager?

One or two did yeah. The one that stands out more than anything, again to do with Rangers and European football, was Mark Hateley. He’d left us saying he’d agreed to everything and he was going to sign, but had to do Rangers the courtesy of going to speak to them, as he’d agreed to meet them. Anyway, I got a phone call the next day to say he’d signed for them! So I learned a valuable lesson, don’t let them walk out of the door without signing on the dotted line!

[newpage=Beyond management]

You became Howard Kendall’s assistant in 1990 when he came back a second time, was that a hard decision to make?

It’s never a nice experience when you get sacked obviously! But I understand what Everton Football Club is about, and we’re in the job of winning, which I hadn’t been doing – but it wasn’t for the want of trying, I was desperate to get that first trophy, but it just wasn’t to be. It was the week after I’d been sacked, and Howard had come in, that I got a phone call from Bill Kenwright asking me if I’d like to go back and assist Howard. So, looking back, I thought, ‘Well, it’s been good before, why can’t it be good again?’ but it didn’t quite turn out like that.

I never had any doubts though, and there was no hesitation in my mind about going back as first team coach with Howard, I wasn’t peaved or anything, but as an Evertonian I wanted to go back and get back to winning ways.

What do you think were the contributing factors to your second time with Howard not being quite as illustrious as the first?

You could list a number of things, there were probably a lot of little things that add up and make a combination that stops things working out. It’s difficult to replicate something that has happened in the past, but we’re in the winning business, and if you’re not then you have to accept the consequences.

When you left Everton, you went to become Graeme Sharp’s assistant at Oldham, was that strange working for a player you’d coached and managed?

I’d had a brief spell with Kingy [Andy King, scorer of the fantastic volley against Liverpool at Anfield in 1979] at Mansfield, and then a couple of years later on Sharpy gave me a call and I went to work with him at Oldham.

He was great to work with and it gave me a lot of pride that a player who had played under me thought I’d be able to help him out in his managerial position. I had a spell with Inchy [Adrian Heath] at Burnley as well. And I take it as a compliment that players who have worked under me feel that I am able to help them out.

You came back and took over the Youth team again, taking them to FA Youth Cup glory in 1998.

Funnily enough, the first time I came back in 1976, we got the Youth Cup Final that year too but got beaten in the Final by Crystal Palace’s youth side. Their side was supposed to go on and be the “team of the 80’s” with the likes of Kenny Samson in their side, but unfortunately for Palace it didn’t quite work out that way for them.

We won it in 1998 with players like Richard Dunne, Franny Jeffers, and people like that who have come up through the ranks and both turned into good Premiership footballers. Then we had another Youth Cup Final with a certain Mr Rooney.

There were some great players in that side – who stood out for you?

Well we’ve got Richard Dunne playing in the Premiership with Manchester City, Francis is at Charlton and could perhaps have done better, but he’s still only young and he’ll have plenty of opportunities to come back. Danny Cadamarteri played in that side as well, a young lad called Carl Reagan who is at Chester City now.

There were some good footballers in that side, and we enjoyed a good year in which we played some really good football.

What do you think it is about the Everton youth academy that keeps on bringing through great players?

Most academies, like Everton’s, feel that if you can bring one player through every year that breaks into the first team then you are doing fantastically well and that year was probably a bit better than usual. The most important thing about it is the recruitment of young players, if you can get them and keep them, that’s the major factor. We have a really a really good scouting network too, and in particular a man called Sid Benson who usually turns up with some gems, and then it’s just a case of trying to keep hold of them.

You were a major part of the development of Wayne Rooney – were you shocked to see him leave Everton so soon?

Possibly with it being so soon in his career, but he needed to be playing with better players. He was getting frustrated on the pitch, and I did think he’d move but I just didn’t think he’d move quite so soon in all honesty. I don’t think his moves are over yet either, I think he’s got another big move to come in his career, possibly to a big club in Europe.

I think there’s a chance he’d want to come back to Everton as well later on in his career, maybe after four or five years abroad, we might be able to get a couple of years out of him.

It might be a pipe dream, but I’d love to see him give two or three years to Everton and maybe even win something here. Fingers crossed!

Players you have helped develop such as Tony Hibbert and Leon Osman are proving to be a strong backbone to the Everton side at the moment, it must give you a great deal of pride to see them doing so well.

They’ve both done fantastically well, and they both played in the side Youth Cup win in 1998 actually, they were still very young at the time so they didn’t get regular games, but they were part of that set-up.

Leon actually got a bad knee injury in that final against Blackburn, and it took him a little while to get back on his feet again after that, but he’s forced his way into the first team and he’s doing very, very well.

Tony was always heading towards the full-back position as a youngster, which he has done now, and he’s doing really well as well.

When you retired in 2003, you were given a testimonial against Bologna, that must have been a great day.

It was an emotional day. And it was a tie-up with the Former Players Foundation, who help former players when they perhaps fall on harder times, and is a charity I am involved in helping to raise funds for. The whole idea of the Former Players’ Foundation is something I think is a wonderful thing, and a lot of other clubs have taken Everton’s ideas on board, and UEFA are actually trying to get a European Former Players Foundation set up now. Perhaps it won’t be players from this era that will need it, but players from the era I played in, when footballers were paid a good wage – but not quite as good as today – will all benefit from having a Foundation to help out from time to time.

The day didn’t go as smoothly as we’d hoped for though, as Bologna actually turned up late and it was a rainy day, but it was still a fantastic day and I really enjoyed it.

Finally, what is the highlight of your long career at Everton?

Does it have to be only one? If it does then scoring the goal in the FA Cup semi-final in 1966 against Manchester United to get us to Wembley.

But, if I’m allowed any more, then the night we beat West Brom to clinch the league title in 1970 at Goodison Park, which was a wonderful night. And then getting the cap for England comes a close third.

They are the three moments I treasure from my career, I think in that order!

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