June 21, 2021, 08:14:36 AM

Author Topic: Impact of a Manager  (Read 24635 times)

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June 04, 2021, 09:00:06 AM
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Toffee Tuesdays


Drunk text I sent to a friend:
ďWould you agree that Ancelottiís tenure at Everton showed that elite managers donít have as much of an impact as theyíre given credit for?  Big Sam finished higher in the league than Ancelotti. Would even Guardiola or Simeone have turned us into a CL team?Ē

What realistically is the impact of a manager on a squad that has itís limitations? +3-4 league positions for a world class manager and -1-10 for a bad appointment?

And how would you rank our past managers and both on their performance with us and afterword?

Going back 20 years

Moyes
Ancelotti
Koeman
Martinez
Silva
Big Sam


June 04, 2021, 02:04:32 PM
Reply #1
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ally2


Usually the top managers have learned at a lower level and have done enough to earn the top jobs. The top jobs probably do require a slightly different skill set and those managers often stay more or less at elite level. Whilst it might be right to think that they might then struggle if then returning to a lower level, I don't think it's right to conclude that they aren't any good any more. Some have tried to denigrate Ancelotti in this way and I disagree with that but that is not to say I think I wasn't disappointed in him. I thought he would do better than he did.

June 05, 2021, 02:27:10 AM
Reply #2
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Mayor Farnum


I think they are given more leeway when things aren't going right, which probably contributes to them having a more stable atmosphere in which to do the job; because fans are more reticent to get on their backs for fear of being made to look silly if things do work out.
I think Ancelotti was the most rare type of top managers given his longevity and success in different countries.
There are some managers that have one big job in them. I don't necessarily mean with a big club, just a period in their career when they are motivated and top of their game. The best example I can give of that is our own Howard Kendall.
I can hardly think of a manager whose career goes in peaks and troughs. Usually when it descends from the peak it just keeps going down.
That's why I think timing is very important when choosing a manager.
Everton; we'd like to win as long as we don't upset anyone in doing so.


June 05, 2021, 02:38:52 AM
Reply #3
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KoemansNumberTens


I'm not sure a lot of the elite managers are at elite clubs these days.
Barca and Madrid don't appoint proven recently successful managers
Think some big clubs like a figurehead while the board actually make often daft decisions

« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 02:40:48 AM by KoemansNumberTens »

June 05, 2021, 02:44:08 AM
Reply #4
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GLewis

NSNO Subscriber
I think they are given more leeway when things aren't going right, which probably contributes to them having a more stable atmosphere in which to do the job; because fans are more reticent to get on their backs for fear of being made to look silly if things do work out.
I think Ancelotti was the most rare type of top managers given his longevity and success in different countries.
There are some managers that have one big job in them. I don't necessarily mean with a big club, just a period in their career when they are motivated and top of their game. The best example I can give of that is our own Howard Kendall.
I can hardly think of a manager whose career goes in peaks and troughs. Usually when it descends from the peak it just keeps going down.
That's why I think timing is very important when choosing a manager.


Often even the very best managers only have c. 10 years in them at the peak eg Mourinho, Wenger.

Whether thatís fatigue, or that their approach falls out of sync with the general trends

Ferguson in that regard was quite unusual in that he lasted that long. He seemed very good at making sure his assistant was different/ up to date; and also that was able to cycle through the players in the squads

June 05, 2021, 02:51:24 AM
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Mayor Farnum


Often even the very best managers only have c. 10 years in them at the peak eg Mourinho, Wenger.

Whether thatís fatigue, or that their approach falls out of sync with the general trends

Ferguson in that regard was quite unusual in that he lasted that long. He seemed very good at making sure his assistant was different/ up to date; and also that was able to cycle through the players in the squads
Ferguson was a true one off. To maintain the intensity he operated at was extraordinary.

Good point about his regular change of assistant.
Everton; we'd like to win as long as we don't upset anyone in doing so.


June 05, 2021, 02:56:10 AM
Reply #6
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Mayor Farnum


I'm not sure a lot of the elite managers are at elite clubs these days.
Barca and Madrid don't appoint proven recently successful managers
Think some big clubs like a figurehead while the board actually make often daft decisions


I think the massive advantages that RM and Barca have over the rest of their league may make the managers job as much about overseeing a vast coaching set up than actually getting on the training ground.
Everton; we'd like to win as long as we don't upset anyone in doing so.

June 05, 2021, 03:08:38 AM
Reply #7
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KoemansNumberTens


I think the massive advantages that RM and Barca have over the rest of their league may make the managers job as much about overseeing a vast coaching set up than actually getting on the training ground.

Agree but you look at them now and they've thrown all that advantage away and practically bankrupted themselves. Barca have thrown away about half a billion on players that were worth nowhere near what they paid and weren't even the types of player that fitted their style. Not even sure when they last appointed a proven elite manager. Just be well over a decade ago?

For me the real elite managers are the likes of klopp simeone. Maybe the guy who won the title in France. The Atlanta manager. Managers who have to find their teams short comings rather than repeatedly spend.. implement their own style. Have to find value in the market. Obviously Liverpool have spent a lot of money and obviously they've been aided by other clubs giving them crazy fees for players

June 05, 2021, 03:14:03 AM
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brap2

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I always think it's a bit mad that the top top clubs can make such horrible terrible decisions and still come out smelling something roughly like roses.

If we appointed lampard and played the U23s all year we'd be relegated two divisions. If we appointed Koeman...well, yeah.

Ultimately the most important thing is talent on the pitch. That raises your floor. Quality in the squad means that you can only drop so far.

Then you can have a coach like pep or klopp or tuchel or Ferguson who takes your side and raises the ceilling.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 03:15:20 AM by brap2 »
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

June 05, 2021, 03:22:13 AM
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Mayor Farnum


Agree but you look at them now and they've thrown all that advantage away and practically bankrupted themselves. Barca have thrown away about half a billion on players that were worth nowhere near what they paid and weren't even the types of player that fitted their style. Not even sure when they last appointed a proven elite manager. Just be well over a decade ago?

For me the real elite managers are the likes of klopp simeone. Maybe the guy who won the title in France. The Atlanta manager. Managers who have to find their teams short comings rather than repeatedly spend.. implement their own style. Have to find value in the market. Obviously Liverpool have spent a lot of money and obviously they've been aided by other clubs giving them crazy fees for players

The managers you mention are definitely the best around. But because of that I think at the peak of their careers they still want a job that gives them a hands on experience. They want the competition and like to pit their tactics against other coaches. Maybe these days the sheer size of RM and Barca means that coaching may not take up as much of their time as they would like.
The cheque book managers may have the type of experience that the elite clubs want now because they are extremely unlikely to fall out of the CL places; especially in Spain.
Everton; we'd like to win as long as we don't upset anyone in doing so.

June 15, 2021, 03:39:41 AM
Reply #10
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SANA_DR0


Drunk text I sent to a friend:
ďWould you agree that Ancelottiís tenure at Everton showed that elite managers donít have as much of an impact as theyíre given credit for?  Big Sam finished higher in the league than Ancelotti. Would even Guardiola or Simeone have turned us into a CL team?Ē

What realistically is the impact of a manager on a squad that has itís limitations? +3-4 league positions for a world class manager and -1-10 for a bad appointment?

And how would you rank our past managers and both on their performance with us and afterword?0

Going back 20 years

Moyes
Ancelotti
Koeman
Martinez
Silva
Big Sam



this is well skewed...
we had 10 extra points under Carlo, normally that would get you into europe.
under Sam we had 49 points.


Disingenuous philistine.

June 15, 2021, 03:37:45 PM
Reply #11
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formerKHL


the biggest factor in the "elite" manager of today and past "elite" managers is the money issue..

you look at the "old elite" managers....catterick, shankly,  paisley, Kendal, Revie, fagan, clough etc....they were all about football....managing, coaching and developing players...building teams from nowhere to become winners....the tactics in them days were less "onerous and as important" and only developed very rarely eg: ramsey always played 4-4-2 as did most team....the dutch through Johan Cruyff developed this system in the early 70's to a 4-3-3 then again developed it to a rotating 3-4-3....from there teams starting to play around with formations and develop new systems.....hence the development of the "coach" as opposed to the manager....

once the cash started to come into football in a big way clubs started to buy players to build teams rather than develop them. Fergy being the slight exception to the rule but don't forget before they hit their streak of a great group of players coming through....they struggled and he was 1 game away from the sack....

it's always said in football that it's the coaches that kill footballers ..and to a point it's true.....over recent years because of the injection of money football became a business and a "must win or get left behind" attitude came in...and there then developed 3 types of coaches/managers... Mourinho style defensive would rather win 1-0 than draw or lose so pays top dollar for players...the manager/coach who plays to survive relegation and finish as high as they can... as they can't afford to buy the top players...then there's wenger who introduced a new style of attacking football and built a team and players to coach through the style he wanted then bought players to fit the system.... OR....The REAL Madrid way buy the top players to win...if they don't win sell them and buy again...then there's PEP...who totally revamped the playing style of a group of top players he had at his disposal......and went on to become the top team in the world....

Hence your "elite" managers survived as they were winners in their own way.......so they could get the sack and walk into another top job as they were worth the gamble as they were proven winners......Nowadays we don't get a break in the trend as much.....Klopp deffo...simeone deffo....Brendan Rogers maybe......

time will tell who the next elite managers will be.......




« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 03:45:33 PM by formerKHL »

June 15, 2021, 04:12:49 PM
Reply #12
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van der Meyde


Top managers make a difference, but they don't necessarily make as much difference as you'd think.

At least not compared to the players on the pitch.

Typically, over the course of a season, it's estimated that a top manager will win you somewhere in the region of 6 extra points compared to an average manager. Maybe 10 if you're being really generous. Bad managers who neglect defence and fitness? Well, that can cost you a lot more than 10 points yeah.

Bring in a right back who'll score more goals than Coleman, Godfrey and Holgate did combined this season? Or a wide player who'll score more than the 2 Iwobi and Bernard managed between them? In our current situation sorting those out is probably more important than who the manager is.
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June 16, 2021, 01:54:48 AM
Reply #13
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formerKHL


I think good managers bring you a lot more than 10 points tbh....donít forget they pick those players in the first instance......then when itís not working itís those players that they change to make a difference is when they come into their own....

Take Ancelotti made some weird subs but mainly it planned out the right decision over the wrong decision...canít remember him making subs that cost us the game...but sure I may be wrong

June 16, 2021, 07:19:44 PM
Reply #14
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van der Meyde


I think good managers bring you a lot more than 10 points tbh....donít forget they pick those players in the first instance......then when itís not working itís those players that they change to make a difference is when they come into their own....
10 points is a lot more than it sounds though, I think. It's turning 5 draws into wins, 10 defeats into draws, etc.

I'd listen to arguments that top managers bring you top players. The actual coaching and in game decisions though? Well, maybe I'm being harsh but I don't know that I'd be able to pick 5 games this season where Ancelotti was the key difference maker.
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