January 29, 2022, 12:46:04 AM

Author Topic: The u23 thread  (Read 561738 times)

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September 30, 2021, 08:45:01 PM
Reply #2040
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ajax_andy


Not sure that freakshow bench and 5 min cameo means anything personally.

Chelsea made >£90m selling academy players this summer.

City >£30m

Liverpool ~£20m

Arsenal £26

Southampton £2m

Villa I mean ok. £100m but you know.

Everton £0

We produce plenty of talent, we just don't develop them, don't get them minutes, don't get them loans, don't move them on.

It's not about unearthing the new Rooney, it's about providing a talent to revenue stream pure and simple.

There's a factor with this though that I don't think you've considered.  Yes Chelsea sold the likes of Abraham and Tomori for good money, but we could do likewise with say DCL and Holgate and make a lot more than they did.

The difference is that when we get a player coming through our system (regardless of bought or there from the age of 9) we don't have a team good enough to sell them like Chelsea do.

The big teams will always be able to sell young players because they don't need them... We do.
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October 01, 2021, 03:31:26 AM
Reply #2041
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UncleCarlosJustPlay


All reasonable, valid criticisms being made imo.

It's fine to disagree but it doesn't mean there isn't balance and nuance to he debate.

I personally don't hold too much stock in how many young players we had at the weekend as that's more down to poor recruitment than us having a good pathway to the first team.

Think the narrative being drive is more a frustration of how behind the curve we seem to be, rather than just being negative for the sake of it.

Exactly this. Pointing at jjk and Davies as proof we are getting it right when no one thinks they'll ever be good enough is just daft. It shows we have no opinions not that we have a youth system capable of producing fit for purpose players for the first team
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October 01, 2021, 03:34:43 AM
Reply #2042
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UncleCarlosJustPlay


I don't disagree with any of that.  The part I disagree with is that we HAVE made a huge change to address the issue, which hasn't had time to even start to begin to show how it'll work out.

Have we been behind the curve? Most definitely.  Have we done something to try and rectify that, yes. 

Moaning about style of play, players out of position, players on loan at 23 are all irrelevant to the change we've made.  They're issues that need to be addressed longer term, but there's only so much you can change in one go.

I think the problem is that a lot of us have lost faith in unsworth and his coaching team. So just playing younger players under the same coaching doesn't seem like a big change. For me change number 1 had to be better staff. Without that nothing else will make much difference
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October 01, 2021, 03:39:33 AM
Reply #2043
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UncleCarlosJustPlay


There's a factor with this though that I don't think you've considered.  Yes Chelsea sold the likes of Abraham and Tomori for good money, but we could do likewise with say DCL and Holgate and make a lot more than they did.

The difference is that when we get a player coming through our system (regardless of bought or there from the age of 9) we don't have a team good enough to sell them like Chelsea do.

The big teams will always be able to sell young players because they don't need them... We do.

Chelsea have players they've developed playing in their first team too. Were Holgate and DCL still even on youth contracts when we signed them
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October 01, 2021, 03:48:54 AM
Reply #2044
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ajax_andy


Chelsea have players they've developed playing in their first team too. Were Holgate and DCL still even on youth contracts when we signed them

Sure, my point is we'll always compare poorly because we use our youth players whereas Chelsea sell them, unless they're genuinely fantastic.  It's very hard to compare us to them because they operate on a totally different level.

I'm much more interested in how we compare to teams of a similar standing.  Chelsea will always have the edge in us because they buy the best youngsters at will which we can't.
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October 01, 2021, 05:05:11 AM
Reply #2045
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Jamokachi


Not sure that freakshow bench and 5 min cameo means anything personally.

Chelsea made >£90m selling academy players this summer.

City >£30m

Liverpool ~£20m

Arsenal £26

Southampton £2m

Villa I mean ok. £100m but you know.

Everton £0

We produce plenty of talent, we just don't develop them, don't get them minutes, don't get them loans, don't move them on.

It's not about unearthing the new Rooney, it's about providing a talent to revenue stream pure and simple.

For the most part, look at who you're comparing us to, tho.
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October 01, 2021, 05:08:14 AM
Reply #2046
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Jamokachi


Exactly this. Pointing at jjk and Davies as proof we are getting it right when no one thinks they'll ever be good enough is just daft. It shows we have no opinions not that we have a youth system capable of producing fit for purpose players for the first team

They are more than good enough to forge careers at the upper end of the professional game. You're issue seemingly is that we aren't unearthing Rooneys and Barkleys every couple of years. You'd likely moan about that somehow too, tho.
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October 01, 2021, 05:34:15 AM
Reply #2047
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doolally


The reason why Chelsea have been  so successful in generating funds from their academy sales is their canny nack of sending players on loan to the RIGHT clubs, allowing them to put themselves in the shop window and drive up their value. They then sell the ones they donít want and re-loan or keep the ones they do such as Mount and Gallagher who is impressing at Palace. Our issue is that we tend to get our loans absolutely wrong the vast majority of the time and very few progress to the point of increasing in value or becoming 1st team ready. Simms the most recent example of a loan gone well but I can only think of Coleman at Blackpool years ago as another! Chelsea have abused the loan system for years and as they loan so many out every year, they are bound to strike gold more often than most but itís a system thats served them unbelievably well up till now.
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October 01, 2021, 05:36:16 AM
Reply #2048
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UncleCarlosJustPlay


They are more than good enough to forge careers at the upper end of the professional game. You're issue seemingly is that we aren't unearthing Rooneys and Barkleys every couple of years. You'd likely moan about that somehow too, tho.

Upper end of the professional game? What does that mean because they aren't more than good enough for us. Then weve retained them on probably more than they are worth and now we can't get anything for them. They'd be successes of our academy had we moved them on for money at the right time
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October 01, 2021, 05:51:55 AM
Reply #2049
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Jamokachi


Upper end of the professional game? What does that mean because they aren't more than good enough for us. Then weve retained them on probably more than they are worth and now we can't get anything for them. They'd be successes of our academy had we moved them on for money at the right time

Well they both play in the EPL, with one having played in the SPL and Bundesliga. That's the upper end of the professional game, no matter how pedantic you want to be. Your issue seems to be that anything below CL is shite.

Also, "can't get anything for them" is a bit of a stretch. Have our valuations been met? Obviously not. But the two are very different.
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October 01, 2021, 05:53:25 AM
Reply #2050
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Jamokachi


The reason why Chelsea have been  so successful in generating funds from their academy sales is their canny nack of sending players on loan to the RIGHT clubs, allowing them to put themselves in the shop window and drive up their value. They then sell the ones they donít want and re-loan or keep the ones they do such as Mount and Gallagher who is impressing at Palace. Our issue is that we tend to get our loans absolutely wrong the vast majority of the time and very few progress to the point of increasing in value or becoming 1st team ready. Simms the most recent example of a loan gone well but I can only think of Coleman at Blackpool years ago as another! Chelsea have abused the loan system for years and as they loan so many out every year, they are bound to strike gold more often than most but itís a system thats served them unbelievably well up till now.

Chelsea also built their academy conveyor belt on taking no notice of the rules and wearing a transfer ban, which seemingly had zero impact. 
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October 01, 2021, 06:25:09 AM
Reply #2051
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UncleCarlosJustPlay


Well they both play in the EPL, with one having played in the SPL and Bundesliga. That's the upper end of the professional game, no matter how pedantic you want to be. Your issue seems to be that anything below CL is shite.

Also, "can't get anything for them" is a bit of a stretch. Have our valuations been met? Obviously not. But the two are very different.

Come on that's not what I'm saying. JJK played for the bottom team in Germany. He played apparently awfully for celtic who passed and now he's kept out of our team despite us having no-one else fit who can play his position. I'd imagine we'd take 5m for him. He's not a player who's good enough for us. He's not a player we seem able to get even a small fee for. That not me being unhappy because he's not a champions league player. He's 1 we should have sold or even let go on a free rather than renewed his contract
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October 01, 2021, 06:36:31 AM
Reply #2052
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brap2

NSNO Subscriber
For the most part, look at who you're comparing us to, tho.

Yes absolutely fair, but it's an area where a side with less like Top Team cache can make huge strides.

Numerous clubs on the continent who are talent factories and it's not all down to random genetic gold mines of catchment areas.

Southampton, until they fucked it up, had the most profitable academy in the league until about 2018/19 I think.

Ultimately my point was - successful yard stick isn't random freaky injury laden benches with lads on who have no future at the club, it's the actual successful academies that bear fruit in talented first team players and revenue.

Slightly unfair, slightly optimistic, slightly out of reach yes, but that's what you should be aiming at, not 6 minute cameos and 22 year old academy players who are transfer listed making the bench.
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I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

October 01, 2021, 07:11:39 AM
Reply #2053
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Jamokachi


Yes absolutely fair, but it's an area where a side with less like Top Team cache can make huge strides.

Numerous clubs on the continent who are talent factories and it's not all down to random genetic gold mines of catchment areas.

Southampton, until they fucked it up, had the most profitable academy in the league until about 2018/19 I think.

Ultimately my point was - successful yard stick isn't random freaky injury laden benches with lads on who have no future at the club, it's the actual successful academies that bear fruit in talented first team players and revenue.

Slightly unfair, slightly optimistic, slightly out of reach yes, but that's what you should be aiming at, not 6 minute cameos and 22 year old academy players who are transfer listed making the bench.

I think there's a middle ground that can be reached. I agree that 6 minute cameos and 22 year old academy players aren't a benchmark for success, but we have continuously seen academy products and young players making the step up. There are lot's of reasons for stifled development at the club, the first team management changes being hugely significant too.

As @ajax_andy says, this is a journey that's only just beginning its revamp, and we all want the same.

My point, as ever these days, is things aren't as bad as is made out.
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October 01, 2021, 03:41:15 PM
Reply #2054
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doolally


Ruben loftus-cheek must be the worlds oldest academy survivor!! He makes Pennington look like a pup. Heíll still be in no mans land when he hits 35 him
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