December 13, 2017, 02:04:14 AM

Author Topic: [News]Bramley Moore Dock update  (Read 158127 times)

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November 09, 2017, 01:18:54 PM
Reply #2430
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MrWhite

NSNO Subscriber
It still amazes me how half of Liverpool is being regenerated/monuments like Lime St Station have been redeveloped several times over and the surrounding area, yet our fans cant even consider regenerating our own stadium.

Its a cognitive dissonance almost akin to wanting dour football but criticizing Diego Simeone for playing dour football at Athletico Madrid...
Cognitive dissonance is demonstrated by things like ignoring financial realities for emotional reasons. Like thinking winning awards for hospitality is fine, ignoring that “more boxes” is where the serious extra money is earned in matchday revenues, and the importance of that in the long term financial picture. It’s also accusing fans of not even considering renovation, while concluding in advance that the new stadium will be “soulless”, when nothing has been finalised, and concluding the club haven’t considered Walton, when there had been little announced about the whole scheme beyond a location and finance model.

deCoubertin

November 09, 2017, 02:43:36 PM
Reply #2431
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dangermouse


https://twitter.com/mayor_anderson/status/920614673933852672

Is it wrong that I'm a little concerned that he includes Liverpool City Council when he says they're looking at designs????
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November 09, 2017, 02:51:29 PM
Reply #2432
Online

Goaljira

NSNO Subscriber
Is it wrong that I'm a little concerned that he includes Liverpool City Council when he says they're looking at designs????

Not really, because its got to work within the scope of the project else there could be more planning permission issues.  If LCC are on board during the design process its harder for them to say 'That's ugly as fuck that is - you're not ruining the skyline with that'.
Cordiali saluti, motherfuckers.


November 09, 2017, 03:02:13 PM
Reply #2433
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dangermouse


Not really, because its got to work within the scope of the project else there could be more planning permission issues.  If LCC are on board during the design process its harder for them to say 'That's ugly as fuck that is - you're not ruining the skyline with that'.

Thats what the sensible side of me is saying... the more cynical side of me just cant get past seeing a ground full of little mix fans in the summer... maybe a running track too. With big fat Joe patting himself on the back at every opportunity.
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November 09, 2017, 03:22:19 PM
Reply #2434
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sirblue57


Thats what the sensible side of me is saying... the more cynical side of me just cant get past seeing a ground full of little mix fans in the summer... maybe a running track too. With big fat Joe patting himself on the back at every opportunity.
I'm the "trophy husband" from the game my wife regrets playing.

November 09, 2017, 04:27:56 PM
Reply #2435
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MmmBlueRamirez


Cognitive dissonance is demonstrated by things like ignoring financial realities for emotional reasons. Like thinking winning awards for hospitality is fine, ignoring that “more boxes” is where the serious extra money is earned in matchday revenues, and the importance of that in the long term financial picture. It’s also accusing fans of not even considering renovation, while concluding in advance that the new stadium will be “soulless”, when nothing has been finalised, and concluding the club haven’t considered Walton, when there had been little announced about the whole scheme beyond a location and finance model.

The top candidate for POTY in the “ass handed to on a plate” category.
Farming Karma like the Dalai Llama


November 09, 2017, 04:28:59 PM
Reply #2436
Online

blue1948


Thank fuck we didn't have the interweb when we left Anfield .some of the idiots on here would still be watching out of the pub window ,wearing caps .

November 09, 2017, 04:29:36 PM
Reply #2437
Online

74Blue


It depends whether the man is being a carpet bagger or not. I don't trust a man whose primary motive is profit NOT Everton to look after our club nor be in tune with fans enough to find a good home for us. He can barely conduct media interviews or transfer business or (allegedly although Panorama and The FA/EPL Disagree on this) acquisitions of companies legitimately/properly so you can see why I don't trust him to relocate us.

I genuinely cannot understand how fans are so easily letting go of such a mainstay of our fabric in Goodison without even investigating if as Liverpool did - whose ground was also in tatters, whether we could regenerate the stadium. I think we can. Trevor Skempton thought we could. I get that having a primary school next door and no compulsory purchase orders with the houses makes things difficult, but I cant see why the Park End cannot be made bigger at the very least and facilities upgraded stage by stage. Also dont forget Man City won the league and still cannot fill their stadium. We also at Goodison regularly win awards for our hospality so why do we need more boxes in a fucking souless bowl?

Fans need to be careful what they wish for. Home is where the heart is. We have never even contemplated or explored regenerating Goodison. It could be done. Beats inflated ticket prices in a soulless end of town in a stadium with hardly any sentimental value or history. If it was in the Walton area and with a safe standing section I might have been a little more conciliatory , but instead, its being done for personal profit reasons and in an already gentrified city centre whilst abandoning a run down area that needs help.

I've heard it all before when i was part of KEOIC and when i voted against moving in the referendum. Loads of Pro-Kirkby people telling me how amazing it was all going to be. It ended up being unveiled as a laughing stock and got called in by the government.

You may have conceded its a business and of course it is, but that does not mean we shouldn't try to retain some aspects of what the love of the beautiful game is all about. Our heritage,legacy, identity and what we hold dear as fans. I dont know for me as soon as we play in that new stadium the commercialisation of Everton into a brand not a football club is complete for me. I dont know whether I could stomach it.

I dont neccesarily think me and @Ridge even completely agree (if we agree at all) but I think he understands very accurately my natural suspicion about this ploy of Moshiri to move us out of Goodison as a business policy but also for his personal motives. Its being done for economic reasons, not football. No thought has gone into the protection of Walton as an area if we left Goodison or whether we would after several seasons continue to fill our stadium.

Being at Goodison vs Watford made me think how on earth can we just abandon this? I love it. I go there and feel happy. Its home. Its where we belong. For some to say its bricks and mortar is sacriligious.
Like I said, I love Goodison Park as much as any Evertonian, but we simply have to face facts. The old lady is slowly falling apart.
Redevelopment of Goodison would restrict the scope for expansion massively. Goodison is land locked and it would take an age to procure the surrounding properties necessary to expand the footprint of the stadium. Liverpool spent years purchasing houses and the area where their new Main Stand is has completely wiped out two streets full of houses.
Looking at the plans that Peel have for their Liverpool Waters scheme and the planned infrastructure improvements that the council have proposed for the area, It's quite clear that Bramley Moore dock is going to be a very exciting development. Of course there will be many challenges along the way, but the potential is there to create a truly iconic venue, in an iconic location, right on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey.
Apart from the increased capacity, improvement of corporate facilities, improved catering facilities, better transport links, we will also be just a stone's throw from the city centre, which could also improve non-match day revenue. Think stadium tours, retail merchandise etc.

November 09, 2017, 07:25:09 PM
Reply #2438
Online

Ridge


I dont neccesarily think me and @Ridge even completely agree (if we agree at all) but I think he understands very accurately my natural suspicion about this ploy of Moshiri to move us out of Goodison as a business policy but also for his personal motives. Its being done for economic reasons, not football. No thought has gone into the protection of Walton as an area if we left Goodison or whether we would after several seasons continue to fill our stadium.

Being at Goodison vs Watford made me think how on earth can we just abandon this? I love it. I go there and feel happy. Its home. Its where we belong. For some to say its bricks and mortar is sacriligious.

I've been for a new stadium almost since I started posting. I see the argument for turning it into a living museum, but as soon as you start to upgrade, you'd have to make changes not in keeping with design. It might not be the same Goodison if you changed everything in one go, over years it would cost more and be harder to move pitch. I wanted to stay, until I struggled to come up with or see anything that made any sense. Costs would have been comparable to a new stadium, still limitations and an awkward design.

From a refurb you're looking about 5% increase, new stadium closer to 13%, better sponsorship deals and more corporate facilities. Just like every player becomes too old, you sometimes have to know when to embrace the unknown future, rather than cling to the warmth of familiarity and memories of the past. As harsh as it sounds, its no longer fit for purpose. If we genuinely harbour ambition, we have to find a modern stadium to be able to compete.

A lot of things the club does so well and is taken for granted is BK. Keep him away from deals with NTL, but he genuinely loves the club. The memorials, the gestures, the charitable work, the heart in the right place stuff. I have no worries about him listening to fans and trying to give fans an experience, theatrical productions, he's very good.

With Moshiri, things have been more enhanced than rewritten, that new cladding is exquisite, struggling to find something to grumble about in terms of identity. He was with Arsenal when they went into new stadium, USM is a steel company, so experience, contacts and network should be better than expected. He's spending a lot of cash for others to make mistakes

In terms of botching the job or commercialising the club, it would ruin their asset at the end of the day. We're pretty much setting fire to money, but pretty good on tickets prices and community stuff, more money comes from broadcasting rights. We are beaten by 4x 5x on matchday revenue. I've always read good things about what we do in hospitality.

It's going to be much better than potential Kings Dock stadium and on different planet to shed in Kirkby.

November 09, 2017, 07:54:31 PM
Reply #2439
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BlueNoseMike


Its a cognitive dissonance almost akin to wanting dour football but criticizing Diego Simeone for playing dour football at Athletico Madrid...

Who wants dour football?

November 09, 2017, 09:08:37 PM
Reply #2440
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Gary1878


To my mind, the new stadium is a no brainer from an investment perspective, and is a very attractive opportunity. Whatever is spent on this project, Moshiri is likely to at least get back the original cost. The land is relatively valuable, overlooking one of the most iconic waterfronts in the world.

Football as an industry is an ever-changing beast, and if Everton don't keep innovating and progressing, we will begin to fade away like many of the other giants of the 1960s 70s and 80s. We don't want to become like Leeds, Nottingham Forest, Villa or Derby, and we need to learn from their mistakes, and keep on striving for better than we have.

Goodison is the first stadium (apart from Anfield eh hem) in the history of our club, and it will always have a special place for Everton, the fans and the city. But realistically, what will the stadium look like in 50 years time? Does it support all the modern day functions and facilities that people expect in 2017, let alone 2050 or 2100?

We have an opportunity to move to a stadium for the next 150 years of history, and somewhere that can be a permanent location for Everton for many more decades after that.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 09:10:29 PM by Gary1878 »

November 09, 2017, 09:24:53 PM
Reply #2441
Online

blue1948


To my mind, the new stadium is a no brainer from an investment perspective, and is a very attractive opportunity. Whatever is spent on this project, Moshiri is likely to at least get back the original cost. The land is relatively valuable, overlooking one of the most iconic waterfronts in the world.

Football as an industry is an ever-changing beast, and if Everton don't keep innovating and progressing, we will begin to fade away like many of the other giants of the 1960s 70s and 80s. We don't want to become like Leeds, Nottingham Forest, Villa or Derby, and we need to learn from their mistakes, and keep on striving for better than we have.

Goodison is the first stadium (apart from Anfield eh hem) in the history of our club, and it will always have a special place for Everton, the fans and the city. But realistically, what will the stadium look like in 50 years time? Does it support all the modern day functions and facilities that people expect in 2017, let alone 2050 or 2100?

We have an opportunity to move to a stadium for the next 150 years of history, and somewhere that can be a permanent location for Everton for many more decades after that.
As someone living abroad I can tell you the Liverpool waterfront is loved by many more than you might realise ,I know from first hand experience the Beatles ,River Mersey and to a lesser extent the Liver building are looked upon with a warmth that we as Everton are not ,a lot of people know Liverpool but we are a little like Port Vale ,lots don't know where we play .The waterfront stadium would really help as it would be iconic (addendum from a certain Mr Myers ? )

November 09, 2017, 09:45:00 PM
Reply #2442
Online

Polledreng

NSNO Subscriber
As someone living abroad I can tell you the Liverpool waterfront is loved by many more than you might realise ,I know from first hand experience the Beatles ,River Mersey and to a lesser extent the Liver building are looked upon with a warmth that we as Everton are not ,a lot of people know Liverpool but we are a little like Port Vale ,lots don't know where we play .The waterfront stadium would really help as it would be iconic (addendum from a certain Mr Myers ? )
A lot of people in Denmark don't even know Everton are from Liverpool....

November 09, 2017, 09:54:12 PM
Reply #2443
Offline

Escla

NSNO Subscriber
It depends whether the man is being a carpet bagger or not. I don't trust a man whose primary motive is profit NOT Everton to look after our club nor be in tune with fans enough to find a good home for us. He can barely conduct media interviews or transfer business or (allegedly although Panorama and The FA/EPL Disagree on this) acquisitions of companies legitimately/properly so you can see why I don't trust him to relocate us.

I genuinely cannot understand how fans are so easily letting go of such a mainstay of our fabric in Goodison without even investigating if as Liverpool did - whose ground was also in tatters, whether we could regenerate the stadium. I think we can. Trevor Skempton thought we could. I get that having a primary school next door and no compulsory purchase orders with the houses makes things difficult, but I cant see why the Park End cannot be made bigger at the very least and facilities upgraded stage by stage. Also dont forget Man City won the league and still cannot fill their stadium. We also at Goodison regularly win awards for our hospality so why do we need more boxes in a fucking souless bowl?

Fans need to be careful what they wish for. Home is where the heart is. We have never even contemplated or explored regenerating Goodison. It could be done. Beats inflated ticket prices in a soulless end of town in a stadium with hardly any sentimental value or history. If it was in the Walton area and with a safe standing section I might have been a little more conciliatory , but instead, its being done for personal profit reasons and in an already gentrified city centre whilst abandoning a run down area that needs help.

I've heard it all before when i was part of KEOIC and when i voted against moving in the referendum. Loads of Pro-Kirkby people telling me how amazing it was all going to be. It ended up being unveiled as a laughing stock and got called in by the government.

You may have conceded its a business and of course it is, but that does not mean we shouldn't try to retain some aspects of what the love of the beautiful game is all about. Our heritage,legacy, identity and what we hold dear as fans. I dont know for me as soon as we play in that new stadium the commercialisation of Everton into a brand not a football club is complete for me. I dont know whether I could stomach it.

I dont neccesarily think me and @Ridge even completely agree (if we agree at all) but I think he understands very accurately my natural suspicion about this ploy of Moshiri to move us out of Goodison as a business policy but also for his personal motives. Its being done for economic reasons, not football. No thought has gone into the protection of Walton as an area if we left Goodison or whether we would after several seasons continue to fill our stadium.

Being at Goodison vs Watford made me think how on earth can we just abandon this? I love it. I go there and feel happy. Its home. Its where we belong. For some to say its bricks and mortar is sacriligious.

I take it back Thomas, I shouldn't have said that's it's just bricks and mortar, there's a fair amount of wood and 125 year old steel columns too.

November 09, 2017, 11:58:29 PM
Reply #2444
Online

Bluedylan


Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.