December 15, 2017, 02:54:40 AM

Author Topic: [News]Bramley Moore Dock update  (Read 158539 times)

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November 16, 2017, 07:50:56 AM
Reply #2490
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Jamokachi


You know your in the relocation group...

have you ever actually gave the same commitment to looking into the redevelopment?

Why is there no redevelopment group? Trevor Skempton has put forward what seem at least proposals that deserved investigating as far back as 06/07 and including a Football Quarter. https://www.toffeeweb.com/season/06-07/comment/fans/13408-Skempton.php

By "group" I mean the relocation is what I would prefer. Not that I'm part of some action group or anything.

deCoubertin

November 16, 2017, 11:33:59 AM
Reply #2491
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Thomas


By "group" I mean the relocation is what I would prefer. Not that I'm part of some action group or anything.
I think this fella on this film out soon explains my attitude on certain stadium moves, some clubs change their priorities and just get too big for their boots and miles away from fans. Maybe I'm a luddite, I don't know, or maybe modern football isn't for me. But like I said to @Brownie20, I have genuine concerns this stadium move will be the start of that process. They hardly talk to us now, and thats as important as trying to sign a manager!

« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:36:05 AM by Thomas »

November 16, 2017, 01:55:33 PM
Reply #2492
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brap2

NSNO Subscriber
City Of Liverpool FC.

But in all seriousness, has anyone seriously considered how Old Trafford was redeveloped beyond recognition, along with having any suspicion why the club has done no feasability study into remaining at Goodison?

Not since Iíve seen those fucking comments the lad made about Everton.

Also, youíre pissing in the wind my mate. I know you like to have a cause, but youíre on to a loss either way here like.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.


November 16, 2017, 02:16:02 PM
Reply #2493
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Toddacelli


I understand your concerns @Thomas but I think now energy needs to be directed not against the tide, which would be wasted, but in making sure that this project is done in the right way.

We can bitch and moan about leaving Goodison, I'm sure every Evertonian has massive love and pride invested in the old girl, but it is pissing in the wind, like @brap2 says.

Far better to make our voices heard about what is important to us going forward - and everything I've seen and heard from Dan Meis so far, leads me to believe that fan input and experience is a genuinely important element of the project for him.

From Google:  "The five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance are a part of the framework that makes up our learning to live with the one we lost."

I hope you can move on with us bud.     :hug:
    

I'm only here for the cladding/Bramley Moore Dock updates

November 16, 2017, 02:17:41 PM
Reply #2494
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Jamokachi


They hardly talk to us now, and thats as important as trying to sign a manager!

Whilst I share concerns around modern football, and see your point... what I've quoted simply isn't correct. It's merely a perception given that we live in an age where news and updates are available at every second of every day. Did the club update fans when appointing Koeman? Martinez? Moyes? Smith? No, this has always been handled internally and away from the fans.

November 16, 2017, 02:22:20 PM
Reply #2495
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74Blue


More detail on skempton plans to redevelop Goodison

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/keep-everton-city-plan-football-3431364

"Expansion of Goodison Park.  Plans showing potential expansion of Everton's Stadium [existing structures are in Royal Blue, and new commercial buildings, including a hotel tower, magenta]. The left-hand image allows for development in small affordable steps. The right-hand alternative shows the pitch rotated, as a major first-phase, with a new school incorporated into the corner of the stadium. In both scenarios, the historic site and character of the World's first major football stadium would be retained as the centre-piece of a new Conservation Area. " From http://www.skempton.info/4654/6337.html




You do fully understand how long it would take to buy up all of the land required to rotate the pitch 90 degrees don't you?
You do understand that you can't just rotate a whole stadium 90 degrees during an international break, so whilst the work is on going, we'd have nowhere to fulfil our fixtures.
I'm pretty sure that Gwladys Street school have rejected advances in the past from Everton to relocate their school. What makes you think that they would just roll over and accept a move now?
What about the residents of the streets that would need to be bought up. It took the shite years to run down Anfield and get their own way.
Whilst all this slow buying up of land is taking place, we would be continuing to fall further and further behind the big boys in terms of revenue.
Finally, you want to just build onto existing structures?
A massive part of the problem at Goodison is aging stands with loads of obstructed views and old fashioned catering facilities etc.
When Trevor Skempton drew up his proposal to rotate the stadium, had he carried out any in depth research into the cost of buying up the land, how receptive the current tenants would be to being forced out of their homes, timescales and overall development cost? For a redevelopment to be acceptable, for me, it would require a complete rebuild of the existing stands too, to eradicate the issues of obstructed views and poor facilities. These are things that can't just be fixed with a big can of royal blue paint.


November 16, 2017, 02:52:30 PM
Reply #2496
Online

Makis


Doesn't seem to matter much at the moment, our hospitality was voted 2nd best in the Premier League in 2015.
"Evertonís matchday hospitality was voted second in the Premier Leagueís 2015 Fans Survey for corporate hospitality ."
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/business/everton-fc-freezes-corporate-hospitality-11036408
And how much do we make money compared to others? That's what matters. How much would naming rights cost at the Waterfront versus Walton?

November 16, 2017, 03:57:22 PM
Reply #2497
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Waltzer


I think someone put it in this thread but cant remember when, where or who so apologies, but the best analogy of redeveloping Goodison to anywhere near what is acceptable is Trigger with his broom. By the time you finished doing what is necessary it wont be the same place anyway, we might be physically located in the same area but thats about it, you've also had to endure seasons of reduced capacities, less revenue etc.
I honestly cant wait to move to a new stadium. I took my son to his first game this season, I got front row tickets in the family enclosure (havent sat there for years), these weren't even classed as restricted seats, yet from his 6 year old position you could barely see the pitch the seats were so low with advertising boarding etc in his eye line, and as an adult I couldnt even see the ball when it was on the deck the opposite side due to pitch shape. Football is about entertainment and enjoyment and whilst there are plenty of great memories Goodison thats all that is left, it isnt fit for purpose so regardless of redeveloping or a new stadium, Goodison would no longer exist in my eyes.

November 16, 2017, 04:22:52 PM
Reply #2498
Online

Simon Paul

Administrator
You do fully understand how long it would take to buy up all of the land required to rotate the pitch 90 degrees don't you?
You do understand that you can't just rotate a whole stadium 90 degrees during an international break, so whilst the work is on going, we'd have nowhere to fulfil our fixtures.
I'm pretty sure that Gwladys Street school have rejected advances in the past from Everton to relocate their school. What makes you think that they would just roll over and accept a move now?
What about the residents of the streets that would need to be bought up. It took the shite years to run down Anfield and get their own way.
Whilst all this slow buying up of land is taking place, we would be continuing to fall further and further behind the big boys in terms of revenue.
Finally, you want to just build onto existing structures?
A massive part of the problem at Goodison is aging stands with loads of obstructed views and old fashioned catering facilities etc.
When Trevor Skempton drew up his proposal to rotate the stadium, had he carried out any in depth research into the cost of buying up the land, how receptive the current tenants would be to being forced out of their homes, timescales and overall development cost? For a redevelopment to be acceptable, for me, it would require a complete rebuild of the existing stands too, to eradicate the issues of obstructed views and poor facilities. These are things that can't just be fixed with a big can of royal blue paint.

Liverpool City Council had done that research, actually.

In 2007 a public meeting was told that the owners of the houses around Goodison Park were mostly private landlords, with 100% of them open to swapping stock - being given bigger houses elsewhere in the city which were derelict with a healthy contribution towards helping make them habitable again.

Gwladys Street school was - at the time - part of a group of three schools in the area which were being reorganised into two schools due to the decrease in primary school aged children in the area. Because it is not a private business, and is owned and operated by the council, then the school themselves have very little say in what happens to the land.

The garage / van hire place that sat where the new match day parking site is on the corner by the school were also approached and told the council that they had never been approached by Everton in the past with regards to buying the land, but would be open to offers. They clearly weren't lying either, as it was sold to whoever operates it now.

There would have been cost to Everton, because we are a private business looking to make more money, but it wouldn't have been the logistical nightmare you make it out to be.

Rotating the pitch was also pretty much just thrown into other plans to show that anything is possible. There were probably five or six other proposals for expanding Goodison that didn't involve that idea.

With regards building onto existing structures, the original plans will give architects an idea as to whether it's possible or not. Trevor Skempton says it is, so I'll go with his experience is stadium redevelopment over people without it.

But we're looking to love to a fantastic new stadium in a perfect location, so all of that is by the by. The club never really gave it time of day though because they couldn't afford it. Now we don't need to afford it.

To say it wasn't viable without knowing the depth of research that went into putting the ideas together is out of order though.

November 16, 2017, 05:08:25 PM
Reply #2499
Online

Simon Paul

Administrator
As for Old Trafford, United spent a lot of time in the 60s buying up the land around it because they had the luxury of having a board with vision in the 50s. The upper quadrants you see that were added recently were actually planned just after the war (obviously the designs changed) but the board then knew that whilst they couldn't afford it, one day someone would.

The railway line right down one side of the ground hasn't even affected them in the same way that a row of houses has affected Everton with regards redevelopment.

Forward thinking - it's the future.

November 16, 2017, 06:22:06 PM
Reply #2500
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MmmBlueRamirez


At the risk of sounding like some spluttering enraged Brexiteer when presented with info on how Brexit is going to fuck us all up (apart from the elite):

"Get over it, we're moving away from Goodison Park"
Farming Karma like the Dalai Llama

November 16, 2017, 09:41:00 PM
Reply #2501
Online

Simon Paul

Administrator
At the risk of sounding like some spluttering enraged Brexiteer when presented with info on how Brexit is going to fuck us all up (apart from the elite):

"Get over it, we're moving away from Goodison Park"

I'm made up with Bramley Moore to be honest.  Kirkby would have been shit though.

Mind you, to quote the woman who runs one of the chippies on Goodison Road from when I asked her how she felt about Everton leaving Goodison....."Everton have been leaving here for 30 years love, I'll believe it when I see it"

November 16, 2017, 09:58:50 PM
Reply #2502
Online

Duncs_a_legend

NSNO Subscriber
I'm made up with Bramley Moore to be honest.  Kirkby would have been shit though.

Mind you, to quote the woman who runs one of the chippies on Goodison Road from when I asked her how she felt about Everton leaving Goodison....."Everton have been leaving here for 30 years love, I'll believe it when I see it"

I like the little one on the corner of Walton Hall Aveue, just between the bridge and Queens Drive. Nice chippy that.
"I would never die for my beliefs...because I might be wrong"

November 17, 2017, 02:27:11 PM
Reply #2503
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74Blue


Liverpool City Council had done that research, actually.

In 2007 a public meeting was told that the owners of the houses around Goodison Park were mostly private landlords, with 100% of them open to swapping stock - being given bigger houses elsewhere in the city which were derelict with a healthy contribution towards helping make them habitable again.

Gwladys Street school was - at the time - part of a group of three schools in the area which were being reorganised into two schools due to the decrease in primary school aged children in the area. Because it is not a private business, and is owned and operated by the council, then the school themselves have very little say in what happens to the land.

The garage / van hire place that sat where the new match day parking site is on the corner by the school were also approached and told the council that they had never been approached by Everton in the past with regards to buying the land, but would be open to offers. They clearly weren't lying either, as it was sold to whoever operates it now.

There would have been cost to Everton, because we are a private business looking to make more money, but it wouldn't have been the logistical nightmare you make it out to be.

Rotating the pitch was also pretty much just thrown into other plans to show that anything is possible. There were probably five or six other proposals for expanding Goodison that didn't involve that idea.

With regards building onto existing structures, the original plans will give architects an idea as to whether it's possible or not. Trevor Skempton says it is, so I'll go with his experience is stadium redevelopment over people without it.

But we're looking to love to a fantastic new stadium in a perfect location, so all of that is by the by. The club never really gave it time of day though because they couldn't afford it. Now we don't need to afford it.

To say it wasn't viable without knowing the depth of research that went into putting the ideas together is out of order though.
That was the reason why I asked the question about what research had Trevor Skempton carried out before publishing his plans for redevelopment.
My point about the existing stands does still stand though. The existing structures are no longer what you would call state of the art facilities, and I believe that the whole point of moving or redeveloping would be to create a stadium to see the club through the next 50, 60 years and beyond. To invest hundreds of millions of pounds to simply bolt a few new bits onto the existing ancient structure would be madness.
We need bigger concourse areas under the stands with better catering facilities and improved ingress and egress facilities. I don't see how that would work unless you were to knock the whole existing structure down & start from scratch, which creates a whole new problem. Where do you play whilst that's on going.

November 17, 2017, 05:18:25 PM
Reply #2504
Online

Simon Paul

Administrator
Bigger concourses would come from building backwards as well

The entrances and exits from Goodison are better than a lot of new stadia. Stoke and Wigan spring to mind, while The Emirates is traffic jam central and Old Trafford is a billion stairs and then a queue for a tram you don't want