NSNO | Everton Forum
NSNO Forums => The Everton Forum => Topic started by: Gash on August 18, 2017, 04:05:53 AM
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Getting £50m for Stones and paying £25+ add ons for Keane is starting to look like some very tidy business, especially in this summer's inflated market. Been very impressed with him so far.
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He was my motm today, I thought he was absolutely class. So much better on the ball than I realised.
When you look at the money being spent on defenders lately, we've got ourselves a bargain.
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He defends well and is good on the ball which i thought is what we were getting with stones. Keane is were stones could be
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He's got some serious passing range too
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Absolutely fucking love him.
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Looks the complete package in a centre back, he'll score plenty this season too especially with Sigurdsson on set plays to come.
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Don't know what to think yet, but I like him so far.
After the next 4 PL games I'm sure we'll have a clearer picture.
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I had him down for first scorer........against City in the prediction league
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Reminds me of peak jags but better on the ball
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Thought he was excellent tonight but I'd like to see someone with a bit if pace alongside him as he's slower than I imagined... Not horribly so but someone a bit more fleet footed next to him would be ideal
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He plays with a lot more maturity than his years. We've got our keeper, centre half and centre midfield there for the next ten years, all English and all boss.
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Superb today
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Don't know what to think yet, but I like him so far.
After the next 4 PL games I'm sure we'll have a clearer picture.
Gonna be very harsh to judge any of our players based on the 4 premier league games coming up.
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Best English CB around in my opinion
https://twitter.com/everton/status/898304177520160768
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Gonna be very harsh to judge any of our players based on the 4 premier league games coming up.
Maybe.
But if we want to crack the top 4 how would you expect us to do that if we aren't judging our players by how they play against top 4 teams?
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Gonna be very harsh to judge any of our players based on the 4 premier league games coming up.
If we have any aspirations of anything other than just the best of the rest though these are the games where our players need to stand up and be counted. The bigger players at the bigger clubs thrive in these games.
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Maybe.
But if we want to crack the top 4 how would you expect us to do that if we aren't judging our players by how they play against top 4 teams?
well, i don't expect us to crack the top 4 this season is my main line of thinking.
If, in the next 4 games, large parts of the squad looked distinctly average and we pick up no points, i wouldn't write them or the team off. I'd still be hoping for a good season of trying to take advantage of an opening to grab 6th place.
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We should do a sweepstake for when he will actually get beat in the air.
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People are dreaming if they think he is better than Stones. Good player and can get better for sure.
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People are dreaming if they think he is better than Stones. Good player and can get better for sure.
He's a better defender than Stones in my opinion and certainly better in the air than him, maybe not quite as good on the ball but still very comfortable. The point still stands though, for half the price we got for Stones both deals are looking very good business for us.
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He's a better defender than Stones in my opinion and certainly better in the air than him, maybe not quite as good on the ball but still very comfortable. The point still stands though, for half the price we got for Stones both deals are looking very good business for us.
I agree that both deals are good business but let's judge Keane against better opposition for starters.
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I agree that both deals are good business but let's judge Keane against better opposition for starters.
Like last season when he was quality?
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Stones and Keane would be a very solid and flexible pairing. Something England might look at. Can't remember who the other English defenders are to be honest.
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well, i don't expect us to crack the top 4 this season is my main line of thinking.
If, in the next 4 games, large parts of the squad looked distinctly average and we pick up no points, i wouldn't write them or the team off. I'd still be hoping for a good season of trying to take advantage of an opening to grab 6th place.
As a group I won't write them off either. But I will question if we really want those specific players that really struggle against the top 4 teams around for what we're trying to do.
I actually don't think Keane will struggle. I think he'll do pretty well, and it was a very nice piece of business basically trading Stones for him.
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Gonna be very harsh to judge any of our players based on the 4 premier league games coming up.
That depends how we do in them.
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People are dreaming if they think he is better than Stones. Good player and can get better for sure.
Seems more like people are using their eyes rather than dreaming. Stones has potential but is several hundred feet up his own backside, and that has stunted his development. He hasn't notably improved since he left us, Keane is better so far for us than Stones was when he left.
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I agree that both deals are good business but let's judge Keane against better opposition for starters.
There was a fair bit of that on MOTD last season.
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People are dreaming if they think he is better than Stones. Good player and can get better for sure.
He's a better defender than Stones with better passing, Stones hasn't been great for City.
I don't want a centre half who goes on big runs, his primary goal should be defending
I'd prefer Keane to Stones all day
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You couldn't say faultless but he has definitely been impressive and looks to be just what the doctor ordered and much better than we have had for a while .
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In my opinion the best signing we have done this summer.
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He's a better defender than Stones with better passing, Stones hasn't been great for City.
I don't want a centre half who goes on big runs, his primary goal should be defending
I'd prefer Keane to Stones all day
His passing isn't as good as Stones' but that's not a massive criticism as since people are so frequent to point out Stones' defensive issues, the it surely points to how highly thought of his possession is?
Anyway re Keane he's looked very solid so far.
His speed and quickness on the turn will get tested in some of these games coming up.
But long term if we find a partner who really compliments him then he looks well set.
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The recruitment of Pickford and Keane has stood us in really good stead. Being better than their previous clubs who were just poor sides lucky to have the odd good player. Now we have them hopefully that will help us kick on a bit and attract the next level of player next season too.
We can steal a good player from the minnows at the moment but we need to improve if we're going to attract established players like Giroud.
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Nobody better for sorting a centre half than Koeman, Keane's positioning has improved tons already.
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Maybe.
But if we want to crack the top 4 how would you expect us to do that if we aren't judging our players by how they play against top 4 teams?
It's not how we do against the top 4 that will determine where we finish, it will be how we do against the bottom 12.
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It's not how we do against the top 4 that will determine where we finish, it will be how we do against the bottom 12.
It's how we do against every team in the league which will determine how many points we end up with..
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It's how we do against every team in the league which will determine how many points we end up with..
Of course.
There are 78 points available from the bottom 13 compared to 36 from the top 6 though.
At this stage in our progression, how we do against the top 4 is much less important than how we do against the rest. The players we've signed should be judged accordingly.
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Of course.
There are 78 points available from the bottom 13 compared to 36 from the top 6 though.
At this stage in our progression, how we do against the top 4 is much less important than how we do against the rest. The players we've signed should be judged accordingly.
Games against the top 6 shouldn't be seen as a free swing anymore. We didn't do too bad last year against them overall and this year we're better equipped.
It's this mindset that needs to change.
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His passing isn't as good as Stones' but that's not a massive criticism as since people are so frequent to point out Stones' defensive issues, the it surely points to how highly thought of his possession is?
Isn't it? For all the lauding Stones gets he still has a habit now of playing a really risky pass that then gets cut out and lets the opponent start a dangerous attack. Passing ability is only as useful as decision making allows it to be.
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Games against the top 6 shouldn't be seen as a free swing anymore. We didn't do too bad last year against them overall and this year we're better equipped.
It's this mindset that needs to change.
Where have I said that we should forget about games against the top 6? I'm one of the biggest critics about our approach away from home in these games, for fuck's sake. We should be going into every single one of these games trying to win, because we have the players to beat anyone on our day.
Garbage teams win against the top 4 all the time. Wigan stayed up in 2011/12 because they beat Liverpool, Man United and Arsenal in their last 10 games. Sunderland stayed up in 13/14 in part because they won away at Man United and Chelsea. Would Palace have stayed up if they hadn't won away at Chelsea and Liverpool and beaten Arsenal at home in those last 10 games?
It doesn't mean their players are good though, does it. You can count on one hand the number of players you'd have from them in our first team; you don't really need more than 2 fingers, because you judge a player on as many games as you can, not arbitrarily deciding games against City, Chelsea and Spurs are more important.
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Where have I said that we should forget about games against the top 6? I'm one of the biggest critics about our approach away from home in these games, for fuck's sake. We should be going into every single one of these games trying to win, because we have the players to beat anyone on our day.
Garbage teams win against the top 4 all the time. Wigan stayed up in 2011/12 because they beat Liverpool, Man United and Arsenal in their last 10 games. Sunderland stayed up in 13/14 in part because they won away at Man United and Chelsea. Would Palace have stayed up if they hadn't won away at Chelsea and Liverpool and beaten Arsenal at home in those last 10 games?
It doesn't mean their players are good though, does it. You can count on one hand the number of players you'd have from them in our first team; you don't really need more than 2 fingers, because you judge a player on as many games as you can, not arbitrarily deciding games against City, Chelsea and Spurs are more important.
I thought @Lxxx (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=4362) was adding to your point - not having a pop.
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I thought @Lxxx (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=4362) was adding to your point - not having a pop.
Apologies if I read it the wrong way @Lxxx (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=4362).
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Of course.
There are 78 points available from the bottom 13 compared to 36 from the top 6 though.
At this stage in our progression, how we do against the top 4 is much less important than how we do against the rest. The players we've signed should be judged accordingly.
While not disagreeing with you in general, we also need to take into account that any point against a top 6 team is a point they don't get, and thus lowers our target too.
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Apologies if I read it the wrong way @Lxxx (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=4362).
Hold your horses - I might have read it wrong yet! lolol
But the points from both of you are valid - teams below we should really be putting to be more regularly and we have also hopefully improved to the point where for the teams above - there will be no more drubbings received, we should be hard to beat and maybe turn one or two draws into victories. Let's wait and see!
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Hold your horses - I might have read it wrong yet! lolol
But the points from both of you are valid - teams below we should really be putting to be more regularly and we have also hopefully improved to the point where for the teams above - there will be no more drubbings received, we should be hard to beat and maybe turn one or two draws into victories. Let's wait and see!
Yeah, absolutely.
With the new additions we start with a solid enough base that, hopefully, we might see the end of decisions like starting 3 defensive mids at Spurs away.
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While not disagreeing with you in general, we also need to take into account that any point against a top 6 team is a point they don't get, and thus lowers our target too.
You've got to apply the reverse as well, any point we prevent those below us getting reduces the likelihood of them catching us.
Ultimately it doesn't matter where we get points, only that we get more points than others. I'd happily take 5/6 drubbings (home or away) a season if we won the rest, whether that was losing to the relegation fodder or last years champions.
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You've got to apply the reverse as well, any point we prevent those below us getting reduces the likelihood of them catching us.
Yeah but I'm not worried about that. :)
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In terms of quick improvements though it should be easier to pick up more points than we did in the away games against the 13 below us than in any games vs the top 6.
Chelsea last season is a good example.
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Yeah but I'm not worried about that. :)
Have to say, when it comes to Everton at the moment I'm not worried about anything. We still haven't conceded a single competitive goal, and we've won every game. Michael (and Jordan) have been a big part of that, they inspire confidence.
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In terms of quick improvements though it should be easier to pick up more points than we did in the away games against the 13 below us than in any games vs the top 6.
Chelsea last season is a good example.
That's a nice theory. But this is the Premier League. And when Sean Dyche was plotting where to pick up away points this season, he probably didn't expect to do that in their first away game. Shouldn't we just look to win each game as it comes, rather than deciding which teams we should be getting the points from in advance?
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That's a nice theory. But this is the Premier League. And when Sean Dyche was plotting where to pick up away points this season, he probably didn't expect to do that in their first away game. Shouldn't we just look to win each game as it comes, rather than deciding which teams we should be getting the points from in advance?
Yes but every team will look at the types of games they should be winning.
If you're not winning most of those it's very hard to get where you want to be.
It's no good Burnley winning at Chelsea if they don't beat Huddersfield and 3 other equivalents at home.
I remember a Utd player saying that Ferguson used to target home and away wins vs the teams in the bottom half as the bedrock of their season, then the other games would determine how well they ended up doing.
Obviously things don't go 100% the way that you plan but a basic expectation of 12 games vs bottom 6 and 12 vs top 6 would be fair to be (many) more points vs the former as we are better than them and should do well in those games.
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Yes but every team will look at the types of games they should be winning.
If you're not winning most of those it's very hard to get where you want to be.
It's no good Burnley winning at Chelsea if they don't beat Huddersfield and 3 other equivalents at home.
I remember a Utd player saying that Ferguson used to target home and away wins vs the teams in the bottom half as the bedrock of their season, then the other games would determine how well they ended up doing.
Obviously things don't go 100% the way that you plan but a basic expectation of 12 games vs bottom 6 and 12 vs top 6 would be fair to be (many) more points vs the former as we are better than them and should do well in those games.
All very true. However, Burnley will be feeling more hopeful about those key games having scored three 'unexpected' points. But one of our long term problems has been our mentality in away games against the big boys (knife in a gunfight mentality) and this is something that seems to have changed a little in the league. In their pomp, United were able to plan to win points like that. In Koeman I think we have a manager who is not afraid to plan to win 3 points at Stamford Bridge, the Emirates, in Manchester, and most of all at Anfield. That's the big game for me - if we are to seriously change the mentality, the high water mark is there. Winning there would also give the squad (and the fans) serious belief that we can be more than 'best of the rest'.
Of course that's not to suggest 3 points at Anfield is more important than 3 points anywhere else, but I don't expect Koeman to target trophy points.
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While not disagreeing with you in general, we also need to take into account that any point against a top 6 team is a point they don't get, and thus lowers our target too.
..2 pts they don't get
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Having scored a goal on Thursday and putting in a very good half he strolled off the pitch like he gived zero fucks, as if it was just another day to him.
He's extremely calm, looks far more settled than our more experienced centre halves.
I think him, and, dare I say it, John Stones, will make an amazing partnership for England.
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I honestly think he will prove to be our best signing of the Premier League era. Big statement, but I think he's that good.
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Shane Duffy is genuinely better than Keane
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Shane Duffy is genuinely better than Keane
lolol
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Shane Duffy is genuinely better than Keane
This place is really in a tail spin.
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Shane Duffy is genuinely better than Keane
drink taken?
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To be fair Duffy probably isn't very good but the jury is still out as to if the same applies to Keane too.
It seems we have 2 camps when it comes to players. Them who are shite regardless and them who are shite only because of being dragged down by them who are shite regardless
Williams and Martina shite regardless. Keane and Baines shite because of Williams and Martina. I tend to think that maybe they are just all a bit shite
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Duffy is not better than Keane ffs lol
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To be fair Duffy probably isn't very good but the jury is still out as to if the same applies to Keane too.
It seems we have 2 camps when it comes to players. Them who are shite regardless and them who are shite only because of being dragged down by them who are shite regardless
Williams and Martina shite regardless. Keane and Baines shite because of Williams and Martina. I tend to think that maybe they are just all a bit shite
No. You have two opinions..... Shite or really shite
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No. You have two opinions..... Shite or really shite
Fairs fair Im not far wrong am I. We've been absolutely shocking this season. There's about 5 players I actually quite like
Pickford (who was overpriced) Coleman, bolasie, lookman and Davies. The rest are all different degrees of shite. Williams though hasn't been any worse than Keane or Baines. Oddly though they get completely different reviews on here
Oh and vlasic looks okay too and barkley massively overrated by some but least he's useful
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He’s not proven to be £30m worth of defender yet though has he.
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Right now Duffy IS better than Keane
He is also better then Williams or Jags
We shouldnt have let him go
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Right now Duffy IS better than Keane
He is also better then Williams or Jags
We shouldnt have let him go
When did he leave? Also he might never have become the superstar he is today without them years of experience elsewhere. It's a bit of a nonsense saying we should never have sold him
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@Simon Paul (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1) please delete the entire forum.
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Fairs fair Im not far wrong am I
Yes. You're frequently wrong. In fact a lot of the time you talk a load of old shite.
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Fairs fair Im not far wrong am I. We've been absolutely shocking this season. There's about 5 players I actually quite like
Pickford (who was overpriced) Coleman, bolasie, lookman and Davies. The rest are all different degrees of shite. Williams though hasn't been any worse than Keane or Baines. Oddly though they get completely different reviews on here
Oh and vlasic looks okay too and barkley massively overrated by some but least he's useful
Can you please stop making every thread about you and your shit hyperbole opinions.
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Right now Duffy IS better than Keane
He is also better then Williams or Jags
We shouldnt have let him go
It took him 100 games to learn his position in a lower to look half decent. He wouldn’t have got that game time here Argument is he could’ve been loaned and kept on I suppose. He’s a good back-foot defender - as most Prem defenders are; blocking shots, winning headers and making last ditch tackles. But if he was in a ball-playing team that pushed-up, his lack of pace and athleticism would be exposed. Horses for courses and all that - Brighton suit him.
Oh, and milk turns faster than Duffy.
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Keane will be class no doubt ...but his confidence comes from trusting his defensive partner(Burnley apearances will atest this )....not something he can do easily at Everton ...no suprise he has his worst days alongside William's (Yard dog at best now) imho.
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Yes. You're frequently wrong. In fact a lot of the time you talk a load of old shite.
Just seems like every match day they prove me a little more right. Strongly opossed us signing rooney and Sigurdsson. Strongly opposed us waiting for Coleman and bolasie rather than going into the market and replacing them. Said Baines was finished. Said Keane was too expensive. Suggested baloteli last season and was told it was the worst suggestion the forum has ever seen (apparently worse than nugget, vassell or even joe hart for 40m)
It kind of seems, unfortunately, that my constant miserable posts aren't that wrong. Oh said we shouldn't pay all that money for Morgan too. I'm quite good at this. Said Baines was finished.
Maybe I could have walshs job
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Can you please stop making every thread about you and your shit hyperbole opinions.
About me. I give an opinion and I'm accused of bullying a player. Is it hyperbolt to suggest they've all been shit this season. You're watching something I'm not if it is. Im constantly accused of not liking any of them. Constantly accused of bullying this player or that when I question them. Oddly though saying Baines is finished is bullying and the contrast stream of abuse for Williams is not. The issue here is that I don't tow the party line. The all the young players are great line. The we can't slag Leighton Baines line. The rooney was shite for 3 years because he wasn't jolly line. The we've spent money on Sigurdsson so it's our job to be excited line
I fully accept I'm a miserable cunt but the reality is I'm currently right. We are to a man fucking shite
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Moan moan fucking moan.
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Moan moan fucking moan.
I'm not sure what else you imagine there currently is to do on an Everton forum. We are shit.
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I think Keane will turn into a very good key defender for Everton, it's just at the moment, confidence throughout the team is very low and affecting the performances of many of the players including the ones who have only recently joined the club - it's even more challenging if you play as a defender who is the more likely person to receive direct criticism for any goal conceded.
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I'm not sure what else you imagine there currently is to do on an Everton forum. We are shit.
And you've made your point a million times over. Give it a fucking rest, you bore.
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And you've made your point a million times over. Give it a fucking rest, you bore.
My point being what? Are you in the Williams thread telling everyone to give it a rest. Of course you aren't. People are allowed to not be massively optimistic about the players you are optimistic about. People are saying worse about Williams than I've said about any player. Hope he never plays for us again. Hate him. Gutted he can't be banned (that's after he was easily our best player) maybe you want to go tell them to give it a rest. Or maybe you want to mind your own fuckiny business and not tell people what the can and can't post based purely on if you agree with it or not.
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My point being what? Are you in the Williams thread telling everyone to give it a rest. Of course you aren't. People are allowed to not be massively optimistic about the players you are optimistic about. People are saying worse about Williams than I've said about any player. Hope he never plays for us again. Hate him. Gutted he can't be banned (that's after he was easily our best player) maybe you want to go tell them to give it a rest. Or maybe you want to mind your own fuckiny business and not tell people what the can and can't post based purely on if you agree with it or not.
It's not about agreement or disagreement. Think a little, it will help you.
I wanted Koeman gone ages ago, when it was pretty unfashionable to say it. Can't believe he's still here. We agree.
The point I'm making is that you're saying the same things over and over again on various threads, and it's tiresome wading through it. You've made your points, most people agree (apart from your DCL nonsense). You don't need to keep saying the same stuff over and over. We can read and we get it.
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His pace is an issue, but he is also dropping far too deep. We're not trying to defend en masse like Burnley do, and it allows crosses to be deeper and leaves space on edge of the box. It's a pretty basic problem, but he turns slow, that if he does push out, he'll leave space in behind.
He's good on the ball and he's a proper old school defender like Jags in terms of eyes open, face first, I'm stopping the ball. But I could see a situation similar to Mertesacker at Arsenal, where he is useful with height at both ends and a decent defender, but it limits the ability of the team to push as far forward as most imposing teams do. Would probably be better as part of 3 at the back.
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Keane is a good player on bad form. He's too young for this to be permanent. Writing him off the likes of Shane Fucking Duffy is laughable.
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Duffy has developed into a good defender playing regularly with Dunk at Brighton and for Ireland. Keane has more quality on the ball, but Duffy is far more mobile.
Think he's looking like one of the better defenders in the league and wouldn't be that surprised if Brighton receive interest in both central defenders next summer.
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Duffy and mobile aren't two words I'd ever put together.
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Duffy and mobile aren't two words I'd ever put together.
I only said more mobile than Keane.
It's a bit like someone being taller than Danny Devito.
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Even in an inflated market, I find it hard to believe Duffy ever goes for more than 10m
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Even in an inflated market, I find it hard to believe Duffy ever goes for more than 10m
He has a similar path to Michael Keane in several ways. Didn't get much game time at big club, loaned out lots, left at 21 and found a starting place to develop further down the food chain. Both are more typical old school defenders.
I'd say £20m+ would be needed to make Brighton even entertain the idea. I'd rather have Dunk and Duffy than any pairing of our centre backs currently.
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is this the same Shane Duffy people are talking about here?
may as well start the shouts for Victor Anichebe to come back as well eh?
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He has a similar path to Michael Keane in several ways. Didn't get much game time at big club, loaned out lots, left at 21 and found a starting place to develop further down the food chain. Both are more typical old school defenders.
I'd say £20m+ would be needed to make Brighton even entertain the idea. I'd rather have Dunk and Duffy than any pairing of our centre backs currently.
You hit on an interesting point, in that I think the pairing, or at least the overall shape of our back four might be more of the problem than Keane individually. He's just not capable of carrying us, and has fallen into a rut.
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Even in an inflated market, I find it hard to believe Duffy ever goes for more than 10m
I didn't mean to like that, fat fingers,if you could get Shane Duffy for under 10m I would be amazed.
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is this the same Shane Duffy people are talking about here?
may as well start the shouts for Victor Anichebe to come back as well eh?
Or Mustafi or Dier?
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He's suffered with a lack of consistency next to him. He's had Jags and Williams rotating next to him and then Martina, Holgate and Kenny all randomly playing on the right side. It's hard to build up a level of form as a new player with a shifting defence. He's also had to play in a 3 and a 4. I think every single defender deserves a little bit of slack right now but Keane maybe moreso than anyone else.
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He's suffered with a lack of consistency next to him. He's had Jags and Williams rotating next to him and then Martina, Holgate and Kenny all randomly playing on the right side. It's hard to build up a level of form as a new player with a shifting defence. He's also had to play in a 3 and a 4. I think every single defender deserves a little bit of slack right now but Keane maybe moreso than anyone else.
It's hard to imagine, but maybe Funes Mori really would work well next to him? They seems fairly complementary.
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Hes been really poor so far but im hopi g its a result of the dross around him.
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I like Keane but I still think he gets dragged out of position quite easily. He has got good attributes for a CB and looks like a decent baller but he needs to mature a bit in this position which I believe will with more games under his belt.
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I think Duffy is exactly the type of player Koeman needs right now. Someone we can genuinely blame for being shit and not look at the manager cos it can't be his fault we losing, our defence has Shane Duffy in it.
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Keane is massively under performing. Not quite to the extent of Klaassen but still no where near the expected levels.
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Keane is massively under performing. Not quite to the extent of Klaassen but still no where near the expected levels.
Everyone is significantly underperforming. Tends to happen when the manager is proving to be largely incompetent. Let's have threads slagging off every player in the squad.
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Where has this Shane Duffy love in come from?
Is it just a knee jerk to Williams being crap because prior to that not once has he been metioned as one-that-got-away.
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Where has this Shane Duffy love in come from?
Is it just a knee jerk to Williams being crap because prior to that not once has he been metioned as one-that-got-away.
From having watched him play a fair bit and more recently.
And to be clear, I wasn't saying we should definitely get him. Just that he has developed into important player for club and country and would command a decent fee.
He's currently 2nd in PL for combined blocks, clearances and interceptions and Brighton have better defensive record than us, so just seems like outdated opinions.
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From having watched him play a fair bit and more recently.
And to be clear, I wasn't saying we should definitely get him. Just that he has developed into important player for club and country and would command a decent fee.
He's currently 2nd in PL for combined blocks, clearances and interceptions and Brighton have better defensive record than us, so just seems like outdated opinions.
There's a reasonable argument that he's now a good defender who would be decent for us. There isn't an argument whatsoever though that we missed a trick by not letting him go at the time, not that I am saying you are the one saying that.
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There's a reasonable argument that he's now a good defender who would be decent for us. There isn't an argument whatsoever though that we missed a trick by not letting him go at the time, not that I am saying you are the one saying that.
Yep, totally agree
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He’s utter shit
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He's a better defender than Stones with better passing, Stones hasn't been great for City.
I don't want a centre half who goes on big runs, his primary goal should be defending
I'd prefer Keane to Stones all day
Things change quickly dont they
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And thats why u get so much shit realist. Learn fella, most of us have. Nowt wrong with being a happy-miserable git :)
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Everything seems very laboured with him.
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And thats why u get so much shit realist. Learn fella, most of us have. Nowt wrong with being a happy-miserable git :)
Come on man, I’m just being honest, he’s extremely bad
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One of the lads who I work with used to scout for Burnley.
I spoke to him when we signed Keane and he remarked that he is very solid, dominant in the air and a relatively good passer of the ball, without being a John Stones type. He did go on to say however, that the Burnley backroom staff recognised that Keane plays best in a narrow back four when he has the protection of a full back tucked in close. He isn't good when isolated or when needed to go out to the flanks as he has a tendency to loose his positioning/spatial awareness and be easily bypassed. Given how lacking in formation we are currently, our centre halves (whoever they may be week to week) are being pulled into the flanks far too often leaving huge gaps in the middle.
It feels too soon to judge him, particularly given the number of different people he has had playing next to him, but fair to say he is totally lacking confidence at the moment.
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One of the lads who I work with used to scout for Burnley.
I spoke to him when we signed Keane and he remarked that he is very solid, dominant in the air and a relatively good passer of the ball, without being a John Stones type. He did go on to say however, that the Burnley backroom staff recognised that Keane plays best in a narrow back four when he has the protection of a full back tucked in close. He isn't good when isolated or when needed to go out to the flanks as he has a tendency to loose his positioning/spatial awareness and be easily bypassed. Given how lacking in formation we are currently, our centre halves (whoever they may be week to week) are being pulled into the flanks far too often leaving huge gaps in the middle.
It feels too soon to judge him, particularly given the number of different people he has had playing next to him, but fair to say he is totally lacking confidence at the moment.
Interesting post makes a lot of sense.
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One of the lads who I work with used to scout for Burnley.
I spoke to him when we signed Keane and he remarked that he is very solid, dominant in the air and a relatively good passer of the ball, without being a John Stones type. He did go on to say however, that the Burnley backroom staff recognised that Keane plays best in a narrow back four when he has the protection of a full back tucked in close. He isn't good when isolated or when needed to go out to the flanks as he has a tendency to loose his positioning/spatial awareness and be easily bypassed. Given how lacking in formation we are currently, our centre halves (whoever they may be week to week) are being pulled into the flanks far too often leaving huge gaps in the middle.
It feels too soon to judge him, particularly given the number of different people he has had playing next to him, but fair to say he is totally lacking confidence at the moment.
You can see that in his play, he's a very simple defender who is pretty good at the basics. For £30m though you'd like to have a bit more though and although he's got time on his side and very low on confidence I don't think think he's impressed that much to be honest. For a young lad he's pretty slow and he's not as mobile as I thought he'd be. I also thought he'd be a bit more of a leader coming from Man U and from what he showed at Burnley.
I guess we'll not really find out how good our summer signings are until they are under different management so they can now start afresh, again.
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I feel bad for him, every game he is alongside a different RB and CB.
How is he meant to get any consistency or develop partnerships.
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I feel bad for him, every game he is alongside a different RB and CB.
How is he meant to get any consistency or develop partnerships.
I think this is a general point as well for players around the pitch.
We hardly ever have 2 games in a row with the same system, a lot of the games we arent having the same system for the start of the second half that we had in the first! So for Keane it isnt just having a different centre half and right back next to him, it can also be changing from a back 3 to a back 4 one half to next or one game to next. How can you settle or get some consistency in what you are doing when that is happening.
But as I said thats the same for centre midfielders, wide players people all over the pitch. No coincidence that Leicester had the run they had 2 years ago, Chelsea same last year where they had the same system game after game and players playing the same roles game after game. We might have to rotate players with the number of games we have had but there is no excuse for him changing the system as often as he is doing.
It would be much easier for the players to try and get some consistency in their play and form if they knew the system they were playing and their role in that system inside out.
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I think this is a general point as well for players around the pitch.
We hardly ever have 2 games in a row with the same system, a lot of the games we arent having the same system for the start of the second half that we had in the first! So for Keane it isnt just having a different centre half and right back next to him, it can also be changing from a back 3 to a back 4 one half to next or one game to next. How can you settle or get some consistency in what you are doing when that is happening.
But as I said thats the same for centre midfielders, wide players people all over the pitch. No coincidence that Leicester had the run they had 2 years ago, Chelsea same last year where they had the same system game after game and players playing the same roles game after game. We might have to rotate players with the number of games we have had but there is no excuse for him changing the system as often as he is doing.
It would be much easier for the players to try and get some consistency in their play and form if they knew the system they were playing and their role in that system inside out.
Might this have something to do with it?
"But I don't know. For every manager working with 28-29 players, you can't keep everybody happy. That's my opinion but I don't know."
Maybe he's trying to juggle everyone and pleasing no-one.
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Don't put Keane in a back 4 at the moment, he's been dropping too deep, it's what he's done for last few years. On the rare occasions he hasn't dropped too deep, another player will assume he has. Top teams can't afford to have 8 players defending deep every game, and we don't setup that way. It leaves the space in front of defence to pick passes.
I'd be interested to see how many times players have been caught offside against us, because I can hardly remember it happening this season. It's just an issue we can't afford to offer, unless we have a counter attack, which we don't, he is the slowest relay runner and it stretches the team and leaves us vulnerable
It's still something he can learn and improve, but let him do it out the team, and use the experienced players to settle things. Jags and Williams are not fantastic, but they are our best combination at present, given situation. Alternatively teach Pickford to shout "fuck off" like a reversing sensor for defence.
I don't think Jags or Williams can cover the deficit, maybe Holgate and/or Funes Mori could long term. 18 yard line is deep enough until ball is there, Pickford doesn't command the box that much, and I do think Keane would be more comfortable with Robles behind him.
Maybe work Keane back in gradually and as needs, but probably with pitch size in consideration and get him to hold a higher line, build partnership with Holgate with his pace on the backtrack. Use both sets at different times, but get some familiarity and organisation.
I was wondering the other day if he'd work best as like a some sort of sweeper in a back 3 because of pace issues, he is tidy on the ball and can come forward with it, while he can catch up with play and be an aerial threat at both ends. Maybe even get him knocking long passes and build some of our creative play around him, would be a strange system.
But would mean we could play more attacking midfielders in central positions, while also freeing him up to chase aerial balls and not have to worry about the back line or runners. Maybe even sneak him further forward like Fellaini for a bit of a chuckle every now and then or if we're behind. He actually has looked more comfortable on the ball than I was expecting. Not sure he's good enough to warrant that sort of role, but was trying to think how you'd get the best out of him and I ended up with an inverted Fellaini.
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He just needs a lot of pace around him to look decent and a keeper/sweeper to mop up when he gets done over the top for pace.
So basically we're needing to spend over £30m to make our £30m defender look better. Which is just so typically Everton.
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Is this the folly of buying the best players from bottom half teams?
Keane looked good for Burnley but in a very specific system where the full backs were narrow, the midfield deep and he could concentrate on defending a very small part of the pitch. Defending on the half way line with less protection is a completely different ball game and you'd hope we'd factored this in to our scouting.
Although it's probably unfair to judge as the entire team is fucked from front to back.
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Is this the folly of buying the best players from bottom half teams?
Keane looked good for Burnley but in a very specific system where the full backs were narrow, the midfield deep and he could concentrate on defending a very small part of the pitch. Defending on the half way line with less protection is a completely different ball game and you'd hope we'd factored this in to our scouting.
Although it's probably unfair to judge as the entire team is fucked from front to back.
True. He's getting no protection even though we play two defensive midfielders and he's been asked to play with Martina and his walkabouts, Holgate and his rashness and inexperience and Kenny who is just out of short trousers. That's not even going into the rotating old men to his left.
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I feel bad for him, every game he is alongside a different RB and CB.
How is he meant to get any consistency or develop partnerships.
that quote covers so much thats wrong with our team.
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He just needs a lot of pace around him to look decent and a keeper/sweeper to mop up when he gets done over the top for pace.
So basically we're needing to spend over £30m to make our £30m defender look better. Which is just so typically Everton.
We all know that anyway, even Koeman knows that, hence his demand for a left-sided CB.
Baines is coming to the end now, as is Jags and Williams, Holgate and Kenny are still very raw and Martina is bang average. With Keane, Pickford and Coleman we have the starting blocks, but we need another LB and another 2 (at least) CBs to form a new defence.
The rebuilding task is mammoth here.
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We all know that anyway, even Koeman knows that, hence his demand for a left-sided CB.
Baines is coming to the end now, as is Jags and Williams, Holgate and Kenny are still very raw and Martina is bang average. With Keane, Pickford and Coleman we have the starting blocks, but we need another LB and another 2 (at least) CBs to form a new defence.
The rebuilding task is mammoth here.
Add a couple of strikers and you're talking another £100m.
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Add a couple of strikers and you're talking another £100m.
Aye. It's a huge task. Need some wingers too.
Either we will find that guy to take us forward (be it Unsworth or someone else) and be here for 5-10 years and build the team, or we will do a Palace. Could go either way at moment.
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I think a problem makes everything around look like a problem too. Not a lot of the other components have changed and it's been clear for a while that we are defending like a team fighting relegation.
Pickford has been a decent shot stopper and he's good on the ball, and while he's not commanding, neither is De Gea. And it's generally more of an additional benefit to come out as you do take risk, as long as he does come for the easy ones in and around goalmouth that Pickford does.
Goalkeeper is not crucial to shape of team, and if it is, you've got the wrong keeper. I see no reason for defenders to be blowing Pickford's nose and wiping his bum. And maybe he gives bad commands or spreads anxiety and that's part of the issue for Keane and others. But it's certainly the defenders positioning and movement that is suspect and I think it's fairly clear one of the main problems is Keane.
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Dyche is favourite with the bookies, maybe that would do Michael a world of good.
On the other hand, you can get 40/1 on Roberto returning, which is clearly bunk. ;D
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Dyche isn't sexy enough for Moshiri. Nothing in that but just a hunch that he won't want a guy who looks like an assistant manager at Dixons fronting his exciting new stadium project.
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Dyche isn't sexy enough for Moshiri. Nothing in that but just a hunch that he won't want a guy who looks like an assistant manager at Dixons fronting his exciting new stadium project.
Absolutely spot on with the dixons shout, can easily see him asking if you want the extended warranty
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Dyche isn't sexy enough for Moshiri. Nothing in that but just a hunch that he won't want a guy who looks like an assistant manager at Dixons fronting his exciting new stadium project.
lolol :hail:
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Dyche is favourite with the bookies, maybe that would do Michael a world of good.
Funny that we can now finally start to fairly judge the players Koeman brought in only now that Koeman's out.
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I'm really, really not convinced of him tbh. He's extremely slow and doesn't seem too strong either. Potentially just a good body-in-the-way type defender. Like a more limited Jags.
Not a terrible thing to be but he's clearly been asked to lead out backline and he's not done a great job of it.
Would like to see a van dijk / koulibaly / de ligt type next to him. Ball player who can defend on the front foot, and allow Keane to drop back and be a reasonably comfortable deep cb who can head long balls, which I think he would excel at.
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Rubbish again today :headbang:
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He was very poor today tbf.
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A side from his complete lack of pace and being weak in the air, he is awful at reading the game.
He responds to the game, he is incapable of reading movement or learning opposition player habits
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A side from his complete lack of pace and being weak in the air, he is awful at reading the game.
He responds to the game, he is incapable of reading movement or learning opposition player habits
Agree with all that
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Wasn't very good today but I couldn't say why - ability or form. I won't come to any conclusion about him until he is playing in a semi-competent back four that that have at least average abilities in their own rights and form a stable defensive group. That will take a long time though, and I'm wary that it is one hell of an excuse.
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Dyche must have rated him, and Dyche is a very, very, very good manager.
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work with some Burnley fans, at the time they said they weren't bothered about Keane leaving as long as they still had Ben Mee they wouldn't miss him and that's how it's turned out. When we beat them at ours last year he was very poor and he's not improved, but who has lately.
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work with some Burnley fans, at the time they said they weren't bothered about Keane leaving as long as they still had Ben Mee they wouldn't miss him and that's how it's turned out. When we beat them at ours last year he was very poor and he's not improved, but who has lately.
A lot of that will be bravado though. If he turned us down and signed a new contract with them he'd all of a sudden be the dogs bollocks again.
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A lot of that will be bravado though. If he turned us down and signed a new contract with them he'd all of a sudden be the dogs bollocks again.
Wasn't bravado they just rated others well in front of Keane and they haven't missed him at all so they were right.
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He looks sluggish and not very commanding but see if we can get a decent centre back in January and have a look at him then.
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99% sure he’s actually garbage.
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Remember when Jags first joined, he was awful too.
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Defo not garbage. Like all the other new players, it's very hard to judge him given the shambles he's walked into. Maldini would look shaky in our team at the moment.
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He needs to be more decisive and he will be fine, step in and get a boot on it, or get his head in there. Build the base first, the nice passing will come next. Needs Rhino to teach him how to defend.
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Remember when Jags first joined, he was awful too.
We played him defensive midfield and then right back, which for a player whose weakness is his distribution wasn't much of a surprise.
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Remember when Jags first joined, he was awful too.
And Brett angel too. Most of the players who were awful when they first joined..... just turned out to be awful
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Reckon we have signed a dud tbh.
Only my early impressions like, but like Bluedylan said he is, in fairness, playing in an incredibly slow and ageing defence and behind a disorganized defensive midfield duo.
Tactics don't help him one bit and I always think when your CB partner is shite you are effectively doing the job of 2 players, which he is.
As much as I love Jags he is a bit too old now, Williams is hopeless, Funes Mori bang average and mental and Holgate not ready yet.
Still reckon there is a good player there, he certainly wasn't shite at Burnley and the way they played suited him. Another top CB next to him with a manager that knows how to set up and we will see an improvement I reckon.
Still long way to go but if I am to judge him based on what I have seen so far he has been pathetic.
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Looks like a complete plodder at the moment.
I wonder if we actually scouted these players we bought.
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hes poor. Maybe Williams and jagielka will look better alongside a quality centre half too. Keane is every bit as much of the problem as they are.
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Mentioned this as a few times over the past month or so. I see him as a kind of secondary CB. His performance will always be dependent on the man next to him, which is never what you want. I don't really see any character or personality in his play at all. He's a back against the wall defender. Good when the defenders and midfielders are really compact protecting something. Not very good in one on one type of situation and turns like he's just finished 5 roast dinners
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Don't like quoting this gonk in here but he's spot on:
“Defending is about being focused. It is not a quality problem. Focus on a situation. When we have the ball be an option to receive it or, if you cannot be an option, give protection. Simple as that. It is not about counter-pressing all the time. Yes, if we can counter-press, then do it. If not, go back and defend together. That is the thing we have lacked in one or two games and I think, and I hope, that we are now a step further in this. Our ‘new’ maturity we will have to show 100% in this atmosphere tomorrow.” J. Klopp
Ahem....
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Mentioned this as a few times over the past month or so. I see him as a kind of secondary CB. His performance will always be dependent on the man next to him, which is never what you want. I don't really see any character or personality in his play at all. He's a back against the wall defender. Good when the defenders and midfielders are really compact protecting something. Not very good in one on one type of situation and turns like he's just finished 5 roast dinners
Yep, he’s a backfoot defender who excels in a compact, organised system - same as Williams.
I see him as another example of the disconnect between Koeman and Walsh. Why would Koeman, who had VVD at Soton; a mobile defender would could play out from the back, suddenly want slow players who are shite on the ball? I know players of VVD’s quality aren’t too common, but isn’t that why we brought Walsh in? We could have at least tried to buy defenders with similar characteristics. Not like money was the issue.
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One thing that no no seems to mention in defence of the defenders, Pickford isn’t great and likes to push them back out to the opposition.
Surprising how Pickford has avoided criticism when he’s been liable for a few goals
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Reckon we have signed a dud tbh.
Only my early impressions like, but like Bluedylan said he is, in fairness, playing in an incredibly slow and ageing defence and behind a disorganized defensive midfield duo.
Tactics don't help him one bit and I always think when your CB partner is shite you are effectively doing the job of 2 players, which he is.
As much as I love Jags he is a bit too old now, Williams is hopeless, Funes Mori bang average and mental and Holgate not ready yet.
Still reckon there is a good player there, he certainly wasn't shite at Burnley and the way they played suited him. Another top CB next to him with a manager that knows how to set up and we will see an improvement I reckon.
Still long way to go but if I am to judge him based on what I have seen so far he has been pathetic.
Yep he would look better if we played with 11 behind the ball like Burnley did .
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One thing that no no seems to mention in defence of the defenders, Pickford isn’t great and likes to push them back out to the opposition.
Surprising how Pickford has avoided criticism when he’s been liable for a few goals
On the ' not to be criticised ' list it seems . Like you say despite several stupid mistakes .
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On the ' not to be criticised ' list it seems . Like you say despite several stupid mistakes .
There's a whole thread were plenty of criticism of Pickford goes on .😅😅
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Pickford is way, way down the list of our current problems right now.
Couple of situations lately where he could have done better but how many clear chances do we concede a game? He can't save everything perfectly.
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in a team without a single decent defender or striker, our keeper is the least of our problems mate!
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One thing in Keanes favour is his age, can improve, grow in confidence and hopefully be suitable enough for a place in the Everton team that wins the league next season
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Amazing how keeper isn't a problem this year with such a weak defence where as last year keeper was the major problem and we have the same defenders plus a new better CB than the others. Weird that.
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One thing in Keanes favour is his age, can improve, grow in confidence and hopefully be suitable enough for a place in the Everton team that wins the league championship next season
fixed
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Amazing how keeper isn't a problem this year with such a weak defence where as last year keeper was the major problem and we have the same defenders plus a new better CB than the others. Weird that.
Because the defenders (and defensive midfielders) were more organised and playing a lot better last season. It's not really that hard.
Pickford is by far the strongest member of our defence at the minute and he's infinitely better than our other options in his position.
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I do wonder if we bought the wrong CB from burnley.
Ben Mee was more of a standout last year when I watched them play and was more willing to defend on the front foot and put his foot on the ball.
Of course, he may not be suited to playing for a team that plays higher up the pitch or perhaps it's just form in a bad team, but Keane hasn't looked great so far.
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Keane will come good, 100% certain of that
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Keane has all the things he needs in his locker, to become a great centre back, he just needs better coaching and better players around him. We will sort that out.... eventually!
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Keane will come good, 100% certain of that
I tend to agree, although I wouldn't be 100% certain of it.
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This dopey looking prick is an absolute joke of a player....
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Looked an absolute clown tonight. Got to improve when we manage to source a fucking manager
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Keane has all the things he needs in his locker, to become a great centre back, he just needs better coaching and better players around him. We will sort that out.... eventually!
Can't see it.
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Not having him at all, just looks absolutely abysmal.
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I still think he'll come good. Young defender playing in a thankless position when every more experienced players all around him play absolutely woefully. You could see tonight his confidence is absolutely shattered and I don't think we've got anyone to lift that at the moment.
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I still think he'll come good. Young defender playing in a thankless position when every more experienced players all around him play absolutely woefully. You could see tonight his confidence is absolutely shattered and I don't think we've got anyone to lift that at the moment.
Fair point but he's still a bit of a clogger, confidence or otherwise.
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It’d be worth getting Dyche just to salvage the £30m we paid for Keane. If anyone get get him back in form, it’s him.
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I know the whole team are shit at the moment but even still it is the basics.
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He can't have been helped by playing alongside jags or Williams this season. Today the centre halves were beyond poor. That was a horrible defensive performance and it is the 4th time we have completely collapsed. No spine and spineless.
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He can't have been helped by playing alongside jags or Williams this season. Today the centre halves were beyond poor. That was a horrible defensive performance and it is the 4th time we have completely collapsed. No spine and spineless.
Unsworth should not be playing keane alongside groot,his form is toxic this season
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He can't have been helped by playing alongside jags or Williams this season. Today the centre halves were beyond poor. That was a horrible defensive performance and it is the 4th time we have completely collapsed. No spine and spineless.
No spine AND spineless? Ah yes I see
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Whoever is in charge of future matches, surely has to drop Keane in favour of Jags and Williams, maybe Holgate, or at least go to 3 at the back.
It's not working, we've been trying to persevere since start of the season and it's still the same problem in defence. Keane is clearly not playing at his best, but he's not played into form or improved. It's half a dozen chances and 2 or 3 goals a game. Williams was shocking tonight, but atleast with him and Jags last season we looked a bit pants, rather than a pair of torn and soiled undercrackers.
Whether there is some pressure from Walsh for manager to play Keane and prove him right or something. It seems bizarre that we persist with something, that so clearly doesn't work and has major issues. It doesn't matter how much we paid for him, it's not working and I don't think Unsworth or any new manager is going to solve it by repeating the same pattern.
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However bad Keane has been, he is nowhere near as bad as Williams.
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I just don't understand why he was playing as LCB tonight and Williams as RCB. Surely they are better switching.
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I think Keane has a lot to improve. Apart from his inability to be fast, he a lot of time rushes out of his position and very susceptible to amateur hour of football like the one for their first goal.
I do think he has good attributes to be a quality CB, but at the moment he's just all over the place.
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Think the issue is he’s trying to transition from dyche’s extremely rigid and effective tactics - allowing shots from certain areas and closing angles and defending really fucking deep and just being an able body who follows dyches instructions to having to actually be a defender in a system that is clearly on its arse.
Also he’s not a ball player, in fact I believe that’s why utd let him go, and he’s extremely slow, so he’s never going to be a front foot defender. Replacement for jags maybe but never in a million years a replacement for stones.
Needs an agile ball player to go LCB, while he does the jags stuff. If we could just clone Distin or Lescott from about 10 ago that would be ideal.
Maybe Mangala? Not a baller but physically capable and not fancied at all so maybe available. Probably some class cb’s knocking about Spain and Italy.
Just the same old story isn’t it. Sell a vital player, replace with someone who’s nothing like him.
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However bad Keane has been, he is nowhere near as bad as Williams.
That's true, find it hard to blame the players for us having a bad collection off staff to create a perfect shit storm of bad recruiting Pickford apart probably, although i'm developing a healthy dislike of Shneiderlin due his self overate.
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We should never have sold Stones a player I always rated and it kind of sums up what phillistines our fans are that they felt signing MK was better.
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Pack it in Thomas fucking hell
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We should never have sold Stones a player I always rated and it kind of sums up what phillistines our fans are that they felt signing MK was better.
While the under appreciation of Stones’ talents is fair, there was far too little heed paid to the fact that he was being managed by RM, he did want to go.
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I still think he'll come good. Young defender playing in a thankless position when every more experienced players all around him play absolutely woefully. You could see tonight his confidence is absolutely shattered and I don't think we've got anyone to lift that at the moment.
Bang on. I think we will see the best of this lad in 2/3 years time, and when he is actually playing with other guys who can defend with confidence.
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We should never have sold Stones a player I always rated and it kind of sums up what phillistines our fans are that they felt signing MK was better.
We know Thomas, you are very smart.
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I still think he'll come good. Young defender playing in a thankless position when every more experienced players all around him play absolutely woefully. You could see tonight his confidence is absolutely shattered and I don't think we've got anyone to lift that at the moment.
I think he'll come good and finish 6th ;)
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We should never have sold Stones a player I always rated and it kind of sums up what phillistines our fans are that they felt signing MK was better.
Behave. Stones wanted to go to a better club and £50m was a decent fee. The issue is how we have replaced him not letting him go.
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Aye, same with Lukaku, if they want to go, they WILL go. If we try too hard to keep hold of them and they still want to go, then we end up getting titty lips and fuck all cash for them (like Ross no doubt).
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We should never have sold Stones a player I always rated and it kind of sums up what phillistines our fans are that they felt signing MK was better.
He wanted out mate. Who said signing MK was better?
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We should never have sold Stones a player I always rated and it kind of sums up what phillistines our fans are that they felt signing MK was better.
What fucking fans was this, I didn't see it and you gave shirt term memory loss, Stones wanted to go
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Think I might have said it to be honest lads.
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We should never have sold Stones a player I always rated and it kind of sums up what phillistines our fans are that they felt signing MK was better.
Oh here we go again
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Stones needed to work with Guardiola, or someone like him, to realize his potential.
The only thing he missed out on by leaving Everton is valuable experience pumping the ball into the channels for Lukaku.
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Fucking loads of people said MK was better than stones, that we’d had city’s pants down etc. Etc.
My flippant remark to @thomas was because I agree with him so much I and I thought it was extremely obvious that short terminism and poor form had lead Everton fans to believe the best English CB of the last 10 years was a bad player
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Oh here we go again
Yep, with you rewriting history.
'Ashley Williams is a defend who can defend lad'
LOL
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Stones needed to work with Guardiola, or someone like him, to realize his potential.
Exactly.
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What fucking fans was this, I didn't see it and you gave shirt term memory loss, Stones wanted to go
'Williams is a defender who can defend lad'
He can barely do that. Mostly.
Stones can do it all.
Like i said our fans have no culture football wise sometimes and can be complete philistines.
They think Tom Davies is the player of the century purely because he is scouse and scored vs Man City.
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Exactly.
And Everton needed a 'defender who can defend lad' .........like erm, Ashley Williams. The most uncultured and limited defender for 12m i have ever seen,
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And Everton needed a 'defender who can defend lad' .........like erm, Ashley Williams. The most uncultured and limited defender for 12m i have ever seen,
I don't know how this comes into it.
Stones was a shit defender for us and would've continued to be shit without the guidance of Guardiola.
We sold him for a lot more than what he was worth to us, so we won with the deal.
He got to play for the manager that can turn him into a great player, so he won with the deal.
City got a potential world-class player for a fee they could easily afford, so they won with the deal.
It was one of the very few transfer deals that was a no-brainer for all parties involved.
How we then spent that money has got nothing to do with it.
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Oh look, Thomas acting superior to all other Evertonians again. It's getting old now mate.
Stones wanted to go to Chelsea, we kept him and he was average at best all season. Fast forward a year, so with 12 months less on his contract, City offer us great money and the lad wants to go.
Do you honestly not understand the reasoning in selling him?
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Fucking Nesta wouldve found it hard playing along side a different old age pensioner week in week out ....Keane will come good when either Mori comes back or we replace the old gits.. ..
Yes I said Mori. ..still better than both the old gits imho.
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Fucking Nesta wouldve found it hard playing along side a different old age pensioner week in week out ....Keane will come good when either Mori comes back or we replace the old gits.. ..
Yes I said Mori. ..still better than both the old gits imho.
Mori isn't technically great but unlike anyone of our defenders at the moment he has loads of pace.
He'd walk into the team in a minute (provided we don't end up playing 2 banks of 4 in our own half under our new manager)
Anyway what's his status? Feel like we've been getting loads of updates on Coleman and Bolasie and Ross but nothing on him that I can remember
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Mori is a wild card at the best of times.
You can’t ascribe poor performance of one player (Keane) down to the woeful performance of the team and not apply that same debilitating factor to another (Mori).
If Mori was a solid, dependable player then you could see an calming influence but he’s the opposite.
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I like Mori. Think if Sam throws him in with his pace commitment and passion we may thrive.
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Like we had a choice in selling him.
I can’t physically make my eyes roll as much as I want them to right now.
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Mori is a wild card at the best of times.
You can't ascribe poor performance of one player (Keane) down to the woeful performance of the team and not apply that same debilitating factor to another (Mori).
If Mori was a solid, dependable player then you could see an calming influence but he's the opposite.
But Mori hasnt played since we have been under intense pressure since this year started ....while Williams and Jags have and have both been shaky at best .
So the clean slate of Mori should impart some calm .imho....not to mention hes gotta be chomping at the bit to play .
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But Mori hasnt played since we have been under intense pressure since this year started ....while Williams and Jags have and have both been shaky at best .
So the clean slate of Mori should impart some calm .imho....not to mention hes gotta be chomping at the bit to play .
Eh??
A player who has shown in the past to be erratic and not the least bit calm, will come back from an injury into a defence under masssive pressure and scrutiny and suddenly become this calming influence??
I like Mori, and he'll bring some attributes we are missing, but arguing for him to be a calming influence, no
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Eh??
A player who has shown in the past to be erratic and not the least bit calm, will come back from an injury into a defence under masssive pressure and scrutiny and suddenly become this calming influence??
I like Mori, and he'll bring some attributes we are missing, but arguing for him to be a calming influence, no
But the massive pressure should be all but gone now ...we are out of the dropper and have a manager surely to fuck.
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But the massive pressure should be all but gone now ...we are out of the dropper and have a manager surely to fuck.
We've been shit defensively all season, we were still shit defensively against West Ham, they were just so poor as not to take advantage, our problems haven't suddenly evaporated
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We've been shit defensively all season, we were still shit defensively against West Ham, they were just so poor as not to take advantage, our problems haven't suddenly evaporated
No ,but given a new regime and a manager that can sort out defence ....the whole team should get a boost not just the defence ...yes?.
Unless like the majority on here they stay negative and hope for the worst 😅😅
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Oh look, Thomas acting superior to all other Evertonians again. It's getting old now mate.
Stones wanted to go to Chelsea, we kept him and he was average at best all season. Fast forward a year, so with 12 months less on his contract, City offer us great money and the lad wants to go.
Do you honestly not understand the reasoning in selling him?
Oh look, BlueBeagle spinning things and ignoring the real point.
The real point was our fans are such bad phillistines they felt Michael Keane and Ashley Williams are better than are old CBs like Stones because 'they are defenders who can defend lad'
Who is the all round better player? Who is consistently in the England team? Who plays better on the big stage?
People like you love yard dogs like Williams and headless chickens like Naismith.
If you think being passionate and forthright in my opinion about a club i love is 'superior' then thats your prerogative and own ignorance.
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Oh look, BlueBeagle spinning things and ignoring the real point.
The real point was our fans are such bad phillistines they felt Michael Keane and Ashley Williams are better than are old CBs like Stones because 'they are defenders who can defend lad'
Who is the all round better player? Who is consistently in the England team? Who plays better on the big stage?
People like you love yard dogs like Williams and headless chickens like Naismith.
If you think being passionate and forthright in my opinion about a club i love is 'superior' then thats your prerogative and own ignorance.
You’re proper off your head mate.
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You’re proper off your head mate.
Who plays more regularly for England? Stones or Keane?
Who plays for the bigger club, Stones or Keane?
Who therefore is the better player? Stones.
Yeah, proper off my rocker lad yeah.
Trolling is boring.
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Give it a rest Thomas, constantly putting Everton fans down. Fucking stinks.
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Who plays more regularly for England? Stones or Keane?
Who plays for the bigger club, Stones or Keane?
Who therefore is the better player? Stones.
Yeah, proper off my rocker lad yeah.
Trolling is boring.
Honestly wasn’t talking about the players. I mean how you come across and talk to other people. Proper off your head mate.
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Give it a rest Thomas, constantly putting Everton fans down. Fucking stinks.
When they think MK is better than Stones, or admire a majority shareholder who allegedly doesn't even have his own money and makes grandiose claims then appoints Sam Allardyce and a stadium we dont even control the design or own, and are completely deluded that Goodison cannot be redeveloped
OR
People like @Bob Sacamano (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=47) stoop to the low ebb of personal insults or insulting people with Aspergers/Mental illness, you can understand my occasional low opinion of them. In his case, I reported him to the mods because he is a troll and a bully and defames people. @Bally (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=19) @Gash (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=14) @Simon Paul (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1) The only posts i see him post on here are quoting what i say. He has no opinion at all.
I hope Michael Keane succeeds as his confidence seems shot and he looks good and possesses potential. At the moment though I look at John Stones and wonder why Evertonian's think we done better business shipping him out for Williams/Keane.
We moan about boring football but our attitude towards boring players like Williams is what produces the appointment of managers like Allardyce.
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When they think MK is better than Stones, or admire a majority shareholder who allegedly doesn't even have his own money and makes grandiose claims then appoints Sam Allardyce and a stadium we dont even control the design or own, and are completely deluded that Goodison cannot be redeveloped
OR
People like @Bob Sacamano (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=47) stoop to the low ebb of personal insults or insulting people with Aspergers/Mental illness, you can understand my occasional low opinion of them.
I hope Michael Keane succeeds as his confidence seems shot and he looks good and possesses potential. At the moment though I look at John Stones and wonder why Evertonian's think we done better business shipping him out for Williams/Keane.
We moan about boring football but our attitude towards boring players like Williams is what produces the appointment of managers like Allardyce.
Wouldn’t dream of taking those kinds of snipes tbh. I just think your kinda horrible the way you talk to people. The fact you’re aware of doing it (you occasional low opinion of “them”) makes it far worse. Just not a very nice person by the looks of it.
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@Thomas (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=347), and I'm saying this with the best of intentions, just please fuck this whole argument off.
Seriously.
You've got this idea that Everton fans don't like flair players, of course you can't bring any evidence to support it, while there is plenty of evidence that the opposite is true (see Manny Fernandes). So instead of trying to cobble together some meagre evidence, or just admit that your original idea was a mistake, every month or so you return only to peddle the same idiotic general accusations. And don't bring Aspergers into it, this has got nothing to do with that, Aspergers doesn't make you stupid.
You're just in love with your own idea that just doesn't wash, that's all. The reason people get annoyed with you is not that they don't like you personally, it's just that you refuse to give a shred of evidence to your theory and then get all uppity when people don't accept it as given, like you do.
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Wouldn’t dream of taking those kinds of snipes tbh. I just think your kinda horrible the way you talk to people. The fact you’re aware of doing it (you occasional low opinion of “them”) makes it far worse. Just not a very nice person by the looks of it.
If you where speaking to someone and made a completely irrelevant comment not related to this topic, and that person say had Bi Polar (say Gazza) would you say 'your off your head'
Not a nice person that, is it?
Irony coming from you, a troll.
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When they think MK is better than Stones, or admire a majority shareholder who allegedly doesn't even have his own money and makes grandiose claims then appoints Sam Allardyce and a stadium we dont even control the design or own, and are completely deluded that Goodison cannot be redeveloped
OR
People like @Bob Sacamano (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=47) stoop to the low ebb of personal insults or insulting people with Aspergers/Mental illness, you can understand my occasional low opinion of them. In his case, I reported him to the mods because he is a troll and a bully and defames people. @Bally (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=19) @Gash (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=14) @Simon Paul (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1) The only posts i see him post on here are quoting what i say. He has no opinion at all.
I hope Michael Keane succeeds as his confidence seems shot and he looks good and possesses potential. At the moment though I look at John Stones and wonder why Evertonian's think we done better business shipping him out for Williams/Keane.
We moan about boring football but our attitude towards boring players like Williams is what produces the appointment of managers like Allardyce.
Dont agree, with any of your points. I cant see any evidence for Evertonians not liking flair players, and only liking boring shite.
And i dont agree with how you describe Bob, at all, and i think its pretty crappy of you to accuse him of that shit.
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don't bring Aspergers into it, this has got nothing to do with that, Aspergers doesn't make you stupid.
You're just in love with your own idea that just doesn't wash, that's all. T
(http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=347)
HE #smfpackscodeBob Sacamano (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=47) brought mental health into it. Like he consistently does with his policy of ad hominem attacks.
The last line, maybe I am. But I've watched enough Everton games to know which players fans like and who they don't. They love Tom Davies but not Ross Barkley. Keane not Stones. So don't patronise me. I wont patronise you either.
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HE brought mental health into it.
No, he didn't.
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Dont agree, with any of your points. I cant see any evidence for Evertonians not liking flair players, and only liking boring shite.
And i dont agree with how you describe Bob, at all, and i think its pretty crappy of you to accuse him of that shit.
If you disagree about football thats fine. I'm quite sure we definetly both care about us by hook or by crook winning a game of football tomorrow and hopefully some cups.
If however you apologise for trolls and people who use mental health to make a personal insult when I was trying to make what I thought was a valid point, thats NOT fine.
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If you where speaking to someone and made a completely irrelevant comment not related to this topic, and that person say had Bi Polar (say Gazza) would you say 'your off your head'
Not a nice person that, is it?
Irony coming from you, a troll.
Not sure if I fit the bill of a troll. But if it makes you feel better then whatever.
If you were being as rude as you are and calling people names as you are then I would say something, yes.
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No, he didn't.
He CLEARLY did.
He made an ad hominem attack and actually admitted it was not even to do with football and said 'your off your head mate'
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He CLEARLY did.
He made an ad hominem attack and actually admitted it was not even to do with football and said 'your off your head mate'
No, he obviously didn't. But if you want to see it that way, fine.
I just wanted to help you out but you're clearly managing just fine on your own. Go ahead, continue spouting shite.
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No, he obviously didn't. But if you want to see it that way, fine.
I just wanted to help you out but you're clearly managing just fine on your own. Go ahead, continue spouting shite.
Leave him to it. He said himself he has an occasional low opinion of people. Thus the name calling he does. He’s just not a very nice person.
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No, he obviously didn't. But if you want to see it that way, fine.
I just wanted to help you out but you're clearly managing just fine on your own. Go ahead, continue spouting shite.
Selective blindness.
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When they think MK is better than Stones, or admire a majority shareholder who allegedly doesn't even have his own money and makes grandiose claims then appoints Sam Allardyce and a stadium we dont even control the design or own, and are completely deluded that Goodison cannot be redeveloped
OR
People like @Bob Sacamano (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=47) stoop to the low ebb of personal insults or insulting people with Aspergers/Mental illness, you can understand my occasional low opinion of them. In his case, I reported him to the mods because he is a troll and a bully and defames people. @Bally (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=19) @Gash (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=14) @Simon Paul (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1) The only posts i see him post on here are quoting what i say. He has no opinion at all.
I hope Michael Keane succeeds as his confidence seems shot and he looks good and possesses potential. At the moment though I look at John Stones and wonder why Evertonian's think we done better business shipping him out for Williams/Keane.
We moan about boring football but our attitude towards boring players like Williams is what produces the appointment of managers like Allardyce.
No one is saying Keane is better than Stones. Plenty of people are hapoy at the prospect of Keane being a solid defender with potential to get even better. Someone who wanted to come and play for Everton and has signed for 5 years.
John Stones had great potential which he is now fulfilling. Nearly £50m for someone who hadnt yet fulfilled that potential, and wasnt entering the last year of his contract with no intention of signing a new one (Exactly the same as his best mate Ross has also done) was a good deal for Everton.
If someone offered you both players for the same price for the same amount of time then theres not a single person who wouldnt take John Stones now. That doesnt make Keane a bad player.
And the attacks on @Bob Sacamano (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=47) are way off the mark. I'm guessing your mental illness shouts stem from the 'off your head' comment that you've just not understood. Referring to someone being off their head is that they're not in full control of their faculties due to the intake of a substance be it alcoholic or narcotic diminishing their mental capacity. In no way is it related to any permanent mental condition.
Just stop trying to be billy big bollocks the super blue, the best everton fan ever, the donald trump of the gwladys street and just accept that sometimes people hold a different opinion to you.
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Selective blindness.
Nah, in the context of his comment he means you're chatting shit again, it has nothing to do with mental illness.
This is all standard Thomas behaviour that we've all seen umpteen times over the years. You come on every few weeks trot out the same comments about fans lack of ambition, the club's lack of ambition, "headless chickens", Naismith/Barkley, Stones/Keane etc as if your posting some fine pearls of wisdom, the reason people have a go at you as we're all fed up of hearing it and most of it's bollocks and factually incorrect yet you've got it into your head that you're correct. Then on top of all that when someone has a go at you, you then start reporting posts and bringing your Aspergers into it.
I appreciate that at times the written word doesn't come across as it's meant and you may struggle to see that but in this occasion you've got it completely wrong, so settle down and stop posting the same bollocks over and over again.
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When they think MK is better than Stones, or admire a majority shareholder who allegedly doesn't even have his own money and makes grandiose claims then appoints Sam Allardyce and a stadium we dont even control the design or own, and are completely deluded that Goodison cannot be redeveloped
OR
People like @Bob Sacamano (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=47) stoop to the low ebb of personal insults or insulting people with Aspergers/Mental illness, you can understand my occasional low opinion of them. In his case, I reported him to the mods because he is a troll and a bully and defames people. @Bally (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=19) @Gash (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=14) @Simon Paul (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1) The only posts i see him post on here are quoting what i say. He has no opinion at all.
I hope Michael Keane succeeds as his confidence seems shot and he looks good and possesses potential. At the moment though I look at John Stones and wonder why Evertonian's think we done better business shipping him out for Williams/Keane.
We moan about boring football but our attitude towards boring players like Williams is what produces the appointment of managers like Allardyce.
Is that you realist?.
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If you disagree about football thats fine. I'm quite sure we definetly both care about us by hook or by crook winning a game of football tomorrow and hopefully some cups.
If however you apologise for trolls and people who use mental health to make a personal insult when I was trying to make what I thought was a valid point, thats NOT fine.
You know i have BPD, i wouldnt apologise for people using mental health as personal insults. At all. Craig wasnt doing that.
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Nah, in the context of his comment he means you're chatting shit again, it has nothing to do with mental illness.
This is all standard Thomas behaviour that we've all seen umpteen times over the years. You come on every few weeks trot out the same comments about fans lack of ambition, the club's lack of ambition, "headless chickens", Naismith/Barkley, Stones/Keane etc as if your posting some fine pearls of wisdom, the reason people have a go at you as we're all fed up of hearing it and most of it's bollocks and factually incorrect yet you've got it into your head that you're correct. Then on top of all that when someone has a go at you, you then start reporting posts and bringing your Aspergers into it.
I appreciate that at times the written word doesn't come across as it's meant and you may struggle to see that but in this occasion you've got it completely wrong, so settle down and stop posting the same bollocks over and over again.
Gash has always been partisan against me, so I expected no less.
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You know i have BPD, i wouldnt apologise for people using mental health as personal insults. At all. Craig wasnt doing that.
"Craig" - so like @Gash (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=14) - its your mate.
Whatever, back to Everton.
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"Craig" - so like @Gash (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=14) - its your mate.
Whatever, back to Everton.
::)
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Gash has always been partisan against me, so I expected no less.
Like everything else with you even the above response was predictable.
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::)
Like everything else with you even the above response was predictable.
He's your mate though, isn't he?
Selective blindness.
Basically, because someone has a different opinion to you and your little faction, its 'settle down and stop talking bollocks'.
Favouritism.
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accept that sometimes people hold a different opinion to you.
I agreed with almost every line you wrote, until this.
If someone trolls me, its valid. Usually i get trolled because I have a different opinion to someone else. People feel happy to call that 'talking shite'
When someone else I FEEL is talking shite their opinion is bombproof and how dare i question it.
Otherwise, thanks for a reasonable post.
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He's your mate though, isn't he?
Selective blindness.
Basically, because someone has a different opinion to you and your little faction, its 'settle down and stop talking bollocks'.
Favouritism.
I get on with him yes, but if he was being abusive to you due to mental illness etc i would call him out.
You are talking bollocks Thomas, its the same shit every month.
But thats all ill say on the matter now.
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The stones/keane thing is an interesting topic for sure.
We all saw the potential stones had but truth be told we were desperate for some decent defending as we d been crap at the back. I don't mind admiting I was chuffed with both Williams and keane signing...obviously both are looking awful now so proved wrong big time (I know, I know it doesn't happen very often).
One important thing to remember is that stones probably would not be the player he is now had he'd of stayed simply die to the way play/managers. It was one of those transfers that felt right for all 3 parties at the time.
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Oh look, BlueBeagle spinning things and ignoring the real point.
The real point was our fans are such bad phillistines they felt Michael Keane and Ashley Williams are better than are old CBs like Stones because 'they are defenders who can defend lad'
Who is the all round better player? Who is consistently in the England team? Who plays better on the big stage?
People like you love yard dogs like Williams and headless chickens like Naismith.
If you think being passionate and forthright in my opinion about a club i love is 'superior' then thats your prerogative and own ignorance.
Tbf it would be hard for Williams yo regularly be in the England team seeing as he's captain of Wales (yes, I know he's English really).
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Tbf it would be hard for Williams yo regularly be in the England team seeing as he's captain of Wales (yes, I know he's English really).
hahahhaa
Good joke. I hadn't thought of that myself. He's still a Welsh Lamb though.
Having said that would/should Keane or even Stones get in England's back 4?
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He's your mate though, isn't he?
Selective blindness.
Basically, because someone has a different opinion to you and your little faction, its 'settle down and stop talking bollocks'.
Favouritism.
I have no idea who any of this lot are and dont spend enough time on here to pick a side....but this time you are in the wrong.
There isnt always a motive pal
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I have no idea who any of this lot are and dont spend enough time on here to pick a side....but this time you are in the wrong.
There isnt always a motive pal
Fair enough.
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@Thomas (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=347) fans like a hardworking player because it embodies the effort we feel that we ourselves would put in to playing for Everton. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the flair players. Remember the clamours for Manny Fernandez?
The reality is teams need both. I've been involved in sport at a decent level for a long time and the old adage is true 'hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.'
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@Thomas (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=347) fans like a hardworking player because it embodies the effort we feel that we ourselves would put in to playing for Everton. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the flair players. Remember the clamours for Manny Fernandez?
Or how much shit defending Stones got away with just because "that" penalty.
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@Thomas (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=347) fans like a hardworking player because it embodies the effort we feel that we ourselves would put in to playing for Everton. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the flair players. Remember the clamours for Manny Fernandez?
The reality is teams need both. I've been involved in sport at a decent level for a long time and the old adage is true 'hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.'
This is all true but re Everton fan opinion of such players (or flair players) it still varies (as you’d expect from such a large population).
Loads of people took ages to take to Hibbert and Osman, as examples.
Some people still think that Drenthe wasn’t given a fair crack.
Aside from a few months spell most people hated Naismith.
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The more important question is who is the better defender out of Stones and Keane when they were in their first season at Everton or the first season in the first team squad.
Bit of a toss up on that one. Both equally struggled. I expect Keane to settle down in the next couple of weeks and show his quality as he is a good player.
Stones is a Rolfe Royce tho. Very few defenders like him around. My favourite defender in the EPL at present.
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The more important question is who is the better defender out of Stones and Keane when they were in their first season at Everton or the first season in the first team squad.
Bit of a toss up on that one. Both equally struggled. I expect Keane to settle down in the next couple of weeks and show his quality as he is a good player.
Stones is a Rolfe Royce tho. Very few defenders like him around. My favourite defender in the EPL at present.
This isn't neccesarily a dig and it takes a bit off what @Brownie20 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=169) said, Evertonians like a reasonably priced car. a Boeing 747 not Concorde or a private jet.
Its for us at the moment trying to find an upgrade on a Ford KA between that and an Aston Martin.
At the moment we have Mondeo Man players (Old Blair addage for in the middle type people) when we need an Audi for its dual reliability and glamour. Sometimes playing 'sexy football' (Gullit) fails miserably (Newcastle) or appointing top managers to fight relegation or quickly improve players (Benitez, again at Newcastle)
(I won't be making car analogies again as this one is ropey, at best)
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This isn't neccesarily a dig and it takes a bit off what @Brownie20 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=169) said, Evertonians like a reasonably priced car. a Boeing 747 not Concorde or a private jet.
Its for us at the moment trying to find an upgrade on a Ford KA between that and an Aston Martin.
At the moment we have Mondeo Man players (Old Blair addage for in the middle type people) when we need an Audi for its dual reliability and glamour. Sometimes playing 'sexy football' (Gullit) fails miserably (Newcastle) or appointing top managers to fight relegation or quickly improve players (Benitez, again at Newcastle)
(I won't be making car analogies again as this one is ropey, at best)
That's more of a moped post at best Thomas.
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Gash has always been partisan against me, so I expected no less.
Are you taking the fucking piss here lad, Gash has just given you a fair and reasoned response, then you have the audacity to say he's against you, he's pretty much put what I was going to say to you but without the swearing, have a fucking breather and realise no one is against you, no one is saying anything derogatory about your mental health regardless of how you fucking perceive it.
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"Craig" - so like @Gash (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=14) - its your mate.
Whatever, back to Everton.
I thought you were better than this Thomas. You are making an issue where there really wasn't one and now casting aspersions on some really sound people on here.
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Mori is a wild card at the best of times.
You can’t ascribe poor performance of one player (Keane) down to the woeful performance of the team and not apply that same debilitating factor to another (Mori).
If Mori was a solid, dependable player then you could see an calming influence but he’s the opposite.
On this Keane seems fairly woeful defending crosses and definitely lacks out and out pace
Seems like you were responding to my post (which seems to have been side tracked by this whole crazy exchange) - anyway I do acknowledge he's rash and makes some bad decisions but I do think he'd get in the team at the moment just off his pace and ability to defend in the air which seem to be terrible weaknesses at the moment aside from overall team performances - see for example Southampton
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He seems like he needs a proper one on one fitness coach to me. There’s no way a lad in his early 20’s, professional sportsman no less, should look as leaden footed as he does. I wonder how much sprint training he does because from where I’m standing he looks about as sharp and nimble out the blocks as my nana and that’s not just down to a lack of confidence.
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Yep, with you rewriting history.
'Ashley Williams is a defend who can defend lad'
LOL
When did I say that, ever? Find the quote
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When did I say that, ever? Find the quote
I meant thats what posts where saying on here, in general. Relief at signing someone like Williams and being different to Stones because AW was a 'defender who can defend'.
I guess it IS hyperbole and generalisation but people have acknowledged this DID happen.
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I meant thats what posts where saying on here, in general. Relief at signing someone like Williams and being different to Stones because AW was a 'defender who can defend'.
I guess it IS hyperbole and generalisation but people have acknowledged this DID happen.
At the time he was though, Stones had been going through the motions because he didn't get the Chelsea move yet was still backed by the fans week in week out
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He seems like he needs a proper one on one fitness coach to me. There’s no way a lad in his early 20’s, professional sportsman no less, should look as leaden footed as he does. I wonder how much sprint training he does because from where I’m standing he looks about as sharp and nimble out the blocks as my nana and that’s not just down to a lack of confidence.
Is so slow isn’t he. Needs some explosive work, I’m sure big sams team of sports scientists will have him stretching his glutes ASAP.
Re: Thomas - I can’t believe I’m still reading this Naismith stuff fucking hell, how long can a man keep an argument going in an empty room.
Not ENTIRELY without merit, but has a very clear idea of himself and of ‘other Everton fans’ and allows it to bleed into his opinions regularly - for example his opinion of Davies. I’ve said myself that Ross Barkley can do more with a togger than Davies will ever be able to do, but Davies is a very good footballer. He’s not a headless chicken, he’s not a brain dead tackler, he’s just not technically skilfull- he’s a great pass and move CM and if he had a bit more physical ability he’d be one of the best in England inside 18 months.
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wasn't really applauded or booed when he came on today
unlike Schneiderlin, who I was surprised (even given his recent form) was booed when he came off the bench
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unlike Schneiderlin, who I was surprised (even given his recent form) was booed when he came off the bench
Obviously people getting upset over that Echo story. Shame really, as there was obviously little to it, otherwise he'd be nowhere near the team.
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Obviously people getting upset over that Echo story. Shame really, as there was obviously little to it, otherwise he'd be nowhere near the team.
I think you're right. But I think the vast majority really see him as giving zero fucks. That red against Atalanta was the beginning of the end. After that it didn't even matter about that story in the echo. He's looked very half arsed all season. Not one Everton player even argued that second yellow, not even him. He just walked off. That says a hell of a lot more than what the echo story did.
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I think you're right. But I think the vast majority really see him as giving zero fucks. That red against Atalanta was the beginning of the end. After that it didn't even matter about that story in the echo. He's looked very half arsed all season. Not one Everton player even argued that second yellow, not even him. He just walked off. That says a hell of a lot more than what the echo story did.
Bit odd that Unsy still picked him though?
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Bit odd that Unsy still picked him though?
A bit.
I think the story about what happened at training was overblown.
My point is It's more about how he's playing, and how about he's, and no one else, is giving a fuck about being sent off.
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A bit.
I think the story about what happened at training was overblown.
My point is It's more about how he's playing, and how about he's, and no one else, is giving a fuck about being sent off.
Yes that’s what I mean; if they were the case surely he’d be out of the picture.
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Obviously people getting upset over that Echo story. Shame really, as there was obviously little to it, otherwise he'd be nowhere near the team.
Yet if mirallas was to come on he'd still get cheered
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I know he was brought on to keep it as it is but thought there was more to it than that as well. Imo it was good management to bring on a player that must be completely short of confidence in a relatively comfortable game to give him a taste of a successful performance and clean sheet.
He is our future and will come good. A quicker cb alongside him who can sweep up and we'll be sound.
Just don't ask me who it is.
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Last 6 games Keane started - 20 goals conceded
Last 4 games Keane not starting - 1 goal conceded
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Last 6 games Keane started - 20 goals conceded
Last 4 games Keane not starting - 1 goal conceded
Bit harsh to just blame him on that ha, he has been poor though - lacks confidence, slow and terrible on the ball.
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Think you can only really begin to judge him on his next 6 games in the side tbh.
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Bit harsh to just blame him on that ha, he has been poor though - lacks confidence, slow and terrible on the ball.
Apart from that he's ace..
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Bit harsh to just blame him on that ha, he has been poor though - lacks confidence, slow and terrible on the ball.
Yeah, he's certainly no Williams or Jagielka!
Thiago Silva and Sergio Ramos would have looked shite with our forward line and ball retention under Koeman and Unsworth.
Keane will be a great signing for us once we can stop the ball coming back at us every 90 seconds.
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Let him play in a team that knows what it's supposed to be doing before you judge him.
It's hard to overstate the incoherence of most of the teams Koeman and Unsworth picked this season.
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Last 6 games Keane started - 20 goals conceded
Last 4 games Keane not starting - 1 goal conceded
How many of those 6 were under unsworth
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All previously underperforming players deserve to have a go under stable management, Keane is no exception.
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Is he fit? Has he been dropped or is he not 100% fit
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How many of those 6 were under unsworth
2 Koeman, 4 Unsworth.
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2 Koeman, 4 Unsworth.
Just being a knob sorry
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Last 6 games Keane started - 20 goals conceded
Last 4 games Keane not starting - 1 goal conceded
(https://media.tenor.com/images/ac77793cd884e917bbfe95d3872dfd09/tenor.gif)
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Is he fit? Has he been dropped or is he not 100% fit
He went off injured the same time Baines did, IIRC.
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Reckon he'll be sound when he comes back in.
I'd have Holgate as first choice and have one of Keane, Williams and jags.
Just think holgates composure and ability on the ball is so valuable.
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Reckon he'll be sound when he comes back in.
I'd have Holgate as first choice and have one of Keane, Williams and jags.
Just think holgates composure and ability on the ball is so valuable.
Massively impressed with Holgate lately
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Reckon he'll be sound when he comes back in.
I'd have Holgate as first choice and have one of Keane, Williams and jags.
Just think holgates composure and ability on the ball is so valuable.
And he’s the only one of those 4 who can actually get a sprint on. Allows us to play a higher line. Keane and Holgate could be a potential future CB pairing, certainly in regards to skill set - one would have to emerge as more of a leader though.
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Massively impressed with Holgate lately
Me too. He seems more physically imposing all of a sudden.
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Is he fit? Has he been dropped or is he not 100% fit
I would imagine Allardyce doesn't want to tamper with the back 4 whilst it is working relatively well. 1 goal conceded in 4 games gives you some breathing time as a unit.
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Me too. He seems more physically imposing all of a sudden.
Just goes to show, how Koeman didn't really want to try certain players or develope them
Holgate and for that matter Williams have done really well over plastic few matches. I really thought Williams was finished. Three of our back four looked nearly decent on Sunday.
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I would imagine Allardyce doesn't want to tamper with the back 3 plus cuco the mad cunt whilst it is working relatively well. 1 goal conceded in 4 games gives you some breathing time as a unit.
fixed that for you
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Starts tomorrow, Martina out, so back 4 of
Kenny Keane Williams Holgate
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Hope Keane improves enough but big question marks, and Holgate looks to have more potential by a lot, all deserve another look at post Koeman.
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Twitter rumours that he knocked on the manager’s door and told Sam he was low on confidence and wasn’t up to playing.
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Mad, he had a great game against Leicester I thought. Starting to look a bit of a turkey this lad isn’t he unfortunately.
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Twitter rumours that he knocked on the manager's door and told Sam he was low on confidence and wasn't up to playing.
Lads on tef saying he is very fragile at the minute mentally. It's sad to hear if true
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I agree about the Leicester match. I thought he defended well overall and did a good job with the ball as well (one lazy pass aside).
I don't know if I "blame” him for yesterday. Maybe it's me projecting my opinions on Allardyce and team selections onto the situation, but I thought most of his issues against Arsenal stemmed from looking really uncomfortable in a back three. Sure, there are basic things he should have done better but confidence within the system starts on the training ground and didn’t seem like he had that yesterday.
(Also... why not just pick Holgate, who's played well in that role before, if you have to play a back three?)
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What was this about thinking his house was being robbed during a match.
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What was this about thinking his house was being robbed during a match.
Apparently he's a wreck
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Apparently he's a wreck
Was he robbed or did his head just fall off during the game and thought it was getting robbed?
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Apparently he's a wreck
Who's saying this?
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Who's saying this?
Wrd on tef
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Wrd on tef
Got a link mate?
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Got a link mate?
Not on me phone pal, I'll look tomoz
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I've been told that the club are really concerned over Keane and mental problems
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Fucking hell get him out the side and get him help.
Holgate - Williams or Holgate - Jags or Holgate - Mangala will be fine for the remaining games.
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Got a link mate?
https://twitter.com/matt5cott/status/959936071462277120
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https://twitter.com/matt5cott/status/959936071462277120
He looks it tbh. Like a rabbit in the headlights at times.
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I miss the days when we did proper due diligence before spending a penny on players.
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I miss the days when we did proper due diligence before spending a penny on players.
Our policy at least in terms of big signings looks utterly ridiculous. Must be nearly impossible to get so many expensive signings so wrong
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Jesus, poor lad.
What with him and Lennon, Everton is looking like a lovely place to play your football right now.
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I'm sure Allardyce calling him pathetic and crap will do him the world of good.
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I'm sure Allardyce calling him pathetic and crap will do him the world of good.
I imagine Sam's thoughts on that would be something along the lines of 'man up' and take your criticism. When what he probably needs is a bit of Pochettino love, as I read he drops in on players houses who are struggling and takes them out for dinner to try and build them up that way.
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I imagine Sam's thoughts on that would be something along the lines of 'man up' and take your criticism. When what he probably needs is a bit of Pochettino love, as I read he drops in on players houses who are struggling and takes them out for dinner to try and build them up that way.
Did that sports psychologist ever fucking turn up?
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I still have faith in the lad. He started pretty well for us. He should look at how Jags Everton career started, and how he overcame his poor form and became one of our best defenders of modern times.
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It's not a mentality thing, he just doesn't look good enough to me.
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It’s weird as he was rated high at Man Utd and has been great for Burnley then comes to us and all of sudden can’t handle the pressure
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Keane has been shit from day one. What was his excuse back then?
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Someone else on TEF mentioned that the cut on his foot -- the nasty one he got during the Sunderland match -- still hasn't healed.
Something like that could certainly play a part in why he's looked so uncomfortable defending in space. Could also play a part in having a tough time mentally as well.
We may have paid too much but I have time for Keane. He's young enough to sort out whatever problems he's having currently. (Plus, I really think he looks useful on the ball. Would be nice to have a big CB with the ability to play out from the back some. Has to sort the positioning and 1 v. 1 defending first, though.)
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He's really quite crap. He didn't start well. He just had a long period where people were willing to blame all the other defenders for his poor form. Turns out he was the worst 1.
Now if he's genuinely ill we need to take him out of the team and get him help. If he's just lost his confidence cos he's crap well I can't really be feeling too sorry for him while he picks up millions.
Oh and surely if a player is highly rated by Utd they don't end up playing for Burnley in the championship. Utd didn't rate him. No one above us wanted him. We should have signed McGuire. Half the cost and twice the player
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It’s weird as he was rated high at Man Utd and has been great for Burnley then comes to us and all of sudden can’t handle the pressure
Never really played first team at Utd and wasn’t a £30m but at Burnley.
It’s not easy playing for us as there is a lot more pressure than many people realise.
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We should have signed McGuire. Half the cost and twice the player
Maguire has great matches but he's still a clumsy oaf half of the time.
The other "half" of his game was on full display Wednesday.
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Never really played first team at Utd and wasn’t a £30m but at Burnley.
It’s not easy playing for us as there is a lot more pressure than many people realise.
Always say this when we sign players from clubs like Burnley and Swansea.
I don't think people realise just how big a step up it is.
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He's really quite crap.
Colour me shocked.
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Always say this when we sign players from clubs like Burnley and Swansea.
I don't think people realise just how big a step up it is.
And we've signed a few expensive attackers from those clubs as well.
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Always say this when we sign players from clubs like Burnley and Swansea.
I don't think people realise just how big a step up it is.
Burnley have been better than us all season, he's taken a step down....😉
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Colour me shocked.
Isn't he. He got months where people blamed everyone else for his performances. All he's been in an Everton shirt is bad.
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When you pay 30 million for someone when no other club is interested alarm bells should ring.
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When you pay 30 million for someone when no other club is interested alarm bells should ring.
Last year of his contract too. We got him cheap 😳
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When you pay 30 million for someone when no other club is interested alarm bells should ring.
He was linked to every club above us so how do we know no one else was interested?
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Isn't he. He got months where people blamed everyone else for his performances. All he's been in an Everton shirt is bad.
No.
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So disappointed with how it's panned out with him. Of all our signings I really thought he'd be the best....called that wrong.
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He was linked to every club above us so how do we know no one else was interested?
Because football is a village and news of a players move gets around quickly. If there was other interest no-one else was willing to pay the ridiculous transfer fee we paid.
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When you pay 30 million for someone when no other club is interested alarm bells should ring.
Linked to man u and liverpool
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Because football is a village and news of a players move gets around quickly. If there was other interest no-one else was willing to pay the ridiculous transfer fee we paid.
The fee wasn't ridiculous for what should be our centre back for the next five years at least.
There's a good player in there who's obviously suffering from something outside of his footballing ability.
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The fee wasn't ridiculous for what should be our centre back for the next five years at least.
There's a good player in there who's obviously suffering from something outside of his footballing ability.
He's looked awful from day one. He had twelve months left on a contract with Burnley. We have paid a ridiculous fee.
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Not 100% convinced every single player we bought is bad and totally incapable of playing well to be honest.
Have any of our signings settled and been able to turn in good performances for a bit besides maybe Rooney? He’s a different animal altogether compared to most players on the planet though tbf.
Mad disrupted season, horrible first quarter in terms of fixtures and generally yeah we did buy the wrong sort of players and left insane glaring gaps...up front most obviously but other deficiencies have made themselves patently clear during the course of the season.
We don’t even know what our best first 11 or fucking formation is! We’re all over the place every other game.
I think we do the 4-3-3 for a bit and just try and fucking settle down a bit and bed some of these lads in, the ones that are left anyway.
I can count on one hand the amount of players who you’d think were good buys based on this season alone. Hard to judge any of them on this shitshow.
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As long as we never do this 3 at 5 or even 7 at the back again, I think we'll have a better chance of a result.
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One of the most immobile centre backs Iv ever seen. Plays like he's running on custard
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One of the most immobile centre backs Iv ever seen. Plays like he's running on custard
You're just being ridiculous now.
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One of the most immobile centre backs Iv ever seen. Plays like he's running on custard
Tbf, he's not even the most immobile centre back we have this season let alone have had in the past
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You're just being ridiculous now.
lolol lolol let me be dramatic man
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Linked to man u and liverpool
Well he's obviously not chosen us over them so they probably also stopped being interested when the fee went towards 30mill.
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One of the most immobile centre backs Iv ever seen. Plays like he's running on custard
I'm fucking dis-custard at this comment
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Too much upheaval.
The number of squad changes this season was stupid. Maybe partially necessary due to previous poor planning and declining abilities but if you look at the lineup at Arsenal the only regulars from last year were Schneiderland, Gana, and Williams. Maybe you could say Bolasie and Niasse but neither played for us much last year.
That much change is very difficult to manage properly and combine that with some poor buys in the sense that we bought too many of the same type of player and I think we were always going to struggle.
On Keane, I think he looks decent on the ball and obviously strong in the air. Very slow though and completely goes to pieces at the moment given that he has never looked confident here. I still think he'll be decent but not sure we got a starting cb for the next 5-7 years as we had hoped, probably more a good squad player once he sorts his head out and settles down a bit.
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Still hope he will come good for us. I mean, look at VVD. £75m and apart from his goal against us (massive fucking surprise there), he has been shite for them.
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The lad is quality . He just needs time and a decent Manager , something he hasn't had since he moved from Burnley .
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The lad is quality . He just needs time and a decent Manager , something he hasn't had since he moved from Burnley .
I genuinely couldn't agree with you more and am loath to go off on a tangent.
But replace 'manager' with 'defence' and 'Burnley' with 'Sunderland' and you're talking about Pickford.
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I genuinely couldn't agree with you more and am loath to go off on a tangent.
But replace 'manager' with 'defence' and 'Burnley' with 'Sunderland' and you're talking about Pickford.
True and I did admit the 2 are clearly linked and I was being a bit tongue in cheek as regards Keane . I hope they both achieve at Everton but I am seriously depressed by everything about us at the minute . There isn't a single positive and all this wasted money has to be recouped from somewhere .
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The lad is quality . He just needs time and a decent Manager , something he hasn't had since he moved from Burnley .
I'm not sure I'd use the word 'quality.' I've not seen anything in his career so far that is worthy of using that word.
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Bordering on a big failure this season if you ask me. Would have preferred Harry Maguire.
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Bordering on a big failure this season if you ask me. Would have preferred Harry Maguire.
Great hindsight isn't it.
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Great hindsight isn't it.
No to be honest I had noticed Maguire before at Hull but not Keane at Burnley.
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No to be honest I had noticed Maguire before at Hull but not Keane at Burnley.
I'll give you a clap then if you want.
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No to be honest I had noticed Maguire before at Hull but not Keane at Burnley.
I'll be honest I wanted Keane over Maguire all day, just shows you what i know about football, i couldn't have been more wrong.
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Who knows how things will pan out in the future. Keane was decent last year.
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Bordering on a big failure this season if you ask me. Would have preferred Harry Maguire.
Keane a better more progressive passer according to one passing model from last year.
Surprises me such a cultured fútbol aficionado as yourself would go for the clogger.
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I'll be honest I wanted Keane over Maguire all day, just shows you what i know about football, i couldn't have been more wrong.
Maguire was completely anonymous against us the other week, which given how toothless we are up front isn’t an endorsement.
I think his forward forays catch the eye but they’re not essential at all for CBs.
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Having another poor game today.
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Keane a better more progressive passer according to one passing model from last year.
Surprises me such a cultured fútbol aficionado as yourself would go for the clogger.
We’re a couple of posts away from a Marc Albrighton shout here.
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Maguire was completely anonymous against us the other week, which given how toothless we are up front isn’t an endorsement.
I think his forward forays catch the eye but they’re not essential at all for CBs.
Better dribbler than Keane and markedly so, but will show himself to be the English Funes Mori in time.
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Better dribbler than Keane and markedly so, but will show himself to be the English Funes Mori in time.
It’s just not essential.
If you do everything else and then that on top then great.
But since he does do that, you’d assume someone else would have noticed and got him on the relative cheap.
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Thought he had a decent game again today
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Having another poor game today.
Didn’t mean to like this, thought you said good.
Thought he was quite good with some mad bits.
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We’re a couple of posts away from a Marc Albrighton shout here.
I'd have him.
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I'd have him.
But you didn’t want Walcott.
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But you didn’t want Walcott.
Sorry, mate. Think Steve Walsh hacked my account for a minute there.
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Thought Keane played well today myself, pick of our centre halves.
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Deffo did better today ...could do with a solid partnership ,though the switch half way was nobodies fault .
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Penalty conceded aside I think that was Williams best game since he joined us.
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Keane was OK against Palace but fuck me he's thick as shit
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https://twitter.com/bbcsport/status/962622739218493440
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I’d rather the new DoF and manager made this decision than the current setup.
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Honestly thought he was shite again yesterday.
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Don't reckon he is up too it.
If we can recouop most of the £30M then I'd cut our losses.
Mentally not strong enough and runs almost as though he is shocked to have legs.
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I thought has distribution was pretty bad yesterday, he lacks composure.
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Maguire was completely anonymous against us the other week, which given how toothless we are up front isn’t an endorsement.
I think his forward forays catch the eye but they’re not essential at all for CBs.
He managed to concede the freekick that gave us our second goal, and his mistake when Oumar should have scored After our second goal was so Big that even Williams wouldn’t have made it... Well not sure about Williams but Keane wouldn’t ;)