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NSNO Forums => The Everton Forum => Topic started by: Tofifee on October 09, 2018, 10:52:37 PM

Title: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Tofifee on October 09, 2018, 10:52:37 PM
That thread title reads awfully, i know!
Anyway, regardless, its self explanatory
Of the players due to return soon, which one will benefit the team most

Coleman, Mina, McCarthy, Gomes? 

I honestly think a case could be made for all 4, incl Macca

I do think with Keanes huge improvement beside Zouma, Bernards quality and Gylfi finally getting a go as a real 10, that perhaps the player whose return will improve is most is Seamy.
Kenny has been pretty awful defensively lately and his game seems to be suffering. Coleman is probably the best right back in the league when on form, his return will be a huge plus for me.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Audrey Horne on October 09, 2018, 10:59:14 PM
Coleman
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Bluebridge on October 09, 2018, 11:21:20 PM
Coleman, as we don't know what the two newbies will be like and Macca is too injury prone. Can't wait to see Mina and Gomes though
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Escla on October 09, 2018, 11:28:21 PM
Coleman all day long
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Mac934 on October 09, 2018, 11:31:17 PM
Has to be Seamus, McCarthy too injury prone, could be a good asset if he can stay fit.
The other two are unknown quantities.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: D15TIN on October 09, 2018, 11:44:42 PM
People saying Coleman, id argue Kennys done a better job this season.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: D15TIN on October 09, 2018, 11:46:26 PM
Gomes for me, Davies can have a break - im basically just assuming Gomes will be a success here, as ive not seen him play before, if other signings are anything to go by this fella will also be quality.

McCarthy mehh, always forget he plays here

Mina would've been but Keane is doing ok at the moment, im assuming Mina & Zouma will become the 2 eventually though
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Paddockoldie on October 09, 2018, 11:49:22 PM
Why's Lukaku not on there? 😕 I think Macca would suit Silva's teams but chances of not being injured are slim to nil.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: D15TIN on October 09, 2018, 11:59:27 PM
Why's Lukaku not on there? 😕 I think Macca would suit Silva's teams but chances of not being injured are slim to nil.
Because he plays for Manchester United presumably
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Escla on October 10, 2018, 12:08:42 AM
Because he plays for Manchester United presumably

Yeah, like we need him back.........from United ?
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Audrey Horne on October 10, 2018, 12:12:37 AM
People saying Coleman, id argue Kennys done a better job this season.


 :Holgate:
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Alanvideo on October 10, 2018, 12:14:26 AM
Coleman is the obvious name but I voted McCarthy because we should get him fit and ship him out before he gets picked for ROI again.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: gizzblue on October 10, 2018, 12:46:12 AM
Think Kenny is doing sound tbh. ..still a net wet behind the ward and gets done a bit but its all a huge learning curve ...would love Mac back just to throw Scneids down the pecking order as that's all Mac is (but with energy) .
Went for Gomes because I'm salivating at the thought of creativity from the middle as well as further up the pitch .
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Gash on October 10, 2018, 12:55:20 AM
Back? Has to be Coleman considering two haven't even played and the other's always injured, even allowing for a leg break.

Coleman's going through 'Oviedo Syndrome', it's when one of our best players gets injured and their stand in does a reasonable job. Baines got injured and Oviedo came in and suddenly people had written Baines off and thought the future League One left back was the next big thing, similar when Garbutt stepped in.

Both on form Kenny isn't fit to lace Coleman's boots, it's laughable how quickly we write off players at times just because they may be struggling for form or coming back from injury etc.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Evertonian in NC on October 10, 2018, 12:56:02 AM
Coleman, easily.  Though really interested to see Mina and Gomes.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: D15TIN on October 10, 2018, 01:00:00 AM
Back? Has to be Coleman considering two haven't even played and the other's always injured, even allowing for a leg break.

Coleman's going through 'Oviedo Syndrome', it's when one of our best players gets injured and their stand in does a reasonable job. Baines got injured and Oviedo came in and suddenly people had written Baines off and thought the future League One left back was the next big thing, similar when Garbutt stepped in.

Both on form Kenny isn't fit to lace Coleman's boots, it's laughable how quickly we write off players at times just because they may be struggling for form or coming back from injury etc.
Nobodys writing anyone off, were saying Kenny has been better than Coleman on this seasons performances, which he has.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Gash on October 10, 2018, 01:03:54 AM
Nobodys writing anyone off, were saying Kenny has been better than Coleman on this seasons performances, which he has.

That's debateable, even his best is marginal to how Coleman's been this season. Coleman's just set a high bar in the past. He should still be out as soon as Coleman's fit again both for his infuence on and off the park. And several people have said that (maybe not with Kenny) Coleman should be replaced at the grand old age of 29 as he's getting over the hill.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Tofifee on October 10, 2018, 01:04:02 AM
Anyone that has watched the last 2 games and says Kenny is doing well and should keep his place is either blind or one of the Kennys.......!!

Coleman is one of our truly top class players, on form he is as good as there is out there.

Y'all be kidding yourselves!!!
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: TheRam on October 10, 2018, 01:16:45 AM
Coleman has been really, really poor this season.

Deserves the chance to come back in and retain his place though.

Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: D15TIN on October 10, 2018, 01:18:08 AM
Anyone that has watched the last 2 games and says Kenny is doing well and should keep his place is either blind or one of the Kennys.......!!

Coleman is one of our truly top class players, on form he is as good as there is out there.

Y'all be kidding yourselves!!!

So you're ignoring his previous games before those 2 this season? Going forward and crossing/passing been a lot better than colemans so far

Coleman will probably go right back in when fit, just think Kennys been the better of the two so far
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Shogun on October 10, 2018, 02:38:07 AM
Back? Has to be Coleman considering two haven't even played and the other's always injured, even allowing for a leg break.

Coleman's going through 'Oviedo Syndrome', it's when one of our best players gets injured and their stand in does a reasonable job. Baines got injured and Oviedo came in and suddenly people had written Baines off and thought the future League One left back was the next big thing, similar when Garbutt stepped in.



Only difference being Oviedo actually played well, imagine the reaction if that was Martina conceding that goal against Leicester.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Elgoodo1978 on October 10, 2018, 04:15:26 AM
No brainer, Coleman. I think games like West Ham an Arsenal show that we lack a proper leader in the team.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Bob Sacamano on October 10, 2018, 04:22:31 AM
Haha McCarthy. Good one 😆
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: nsno on October 10, 2018, 04:42:10 AM
link=topic=96880.msg1517299#msg1517299 date=1539108234]
That's debateable, even his best is marginal to how Coleman's been this season. Coleman's just set a high bar in the past. He should still be out as soon as Coleman's fit again both for his infuence on and off the park. And several people have said that (maybe not with Kenny) Coleman should be replaced at the grand old age of 29 as he's getting over the hill.
[/quote]

I am a huge fan of Coleman, he's a top player and epitomises everything great about Everton from years gone by; passion, hard work and a never say die attitude However, we do need to look at replacing in the summer, he'll be 31 this time next year and we don't want to be in a similar position to the one we found ourselves in with Baines.  Finding another rb who can offer what he does will be no easy feat and I think we landed on our feet with digne replacing Baines.  How Coleman comes back from his recent injury troubles will decide his fate I suppose.

Kenny has done admirably in deputising for Coleman, however he is a long way off being a premier league player.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Gash on October 10, 2018, 04:56:42 AM
link=topic=96880.msg1517299#msg1517299 date=1539108234]
That's debateable, even his best is marginal to how Coleman's been this season. Coleman's just set a high bar in the past. He should still be out as soon as Coleman's fit again both for his infuence on and off the park. And several people have said that (maybe not with Kenny) Coleman should be replaced at the grand old age of 29 as he's getting over the hill.


I am a huge fan of Coleman, he's a top player and epitomises everything great about Everton from years gone by; passion, hard work and a never say die attitude However, we do need to look at replacing in the summer, he'll be 31 this time next year and we don't want to be in a similar position to the one we found ourselves in with Baines.  Finding another rb who can offer what he does will be no easy feat and I think we landed on our feet with digne replacing Baines.  How Coleman comes back from his recent injury troubles will decide his fate I suppose.

Kenny has done admirably in deputising for Coleman, however he is a long way off being a premier league player.

I don't get it on here at times when we have 28-29 year old players and people are calling them over the hill and needing replaced. He's coming 30 but we are talking about a one of the best right backs in the league in recent years and other than an horrific injury has kept himself pretty fit and in good shape and doesn't go out on the bevvy or get out of shape during the summer, He is still in his prime years and probably will be for another year or two. A player built like Coleman can easily play at this level for another 2 probably 3 years providing he avoids another bad injury. Absolutely bonkers to be talking about replacing him in the summer, find and nurture his replacement maybe but not replace him immediately. Plenty players in the modern game are playing at the highest level well into their 30's.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Robioto on October 10, 2018, 06:21:51 AM
Until Mina and Gomes have proven thier value the only answer can be Coleman.

I seem to forget we have McCarthy, despite being reminded regularly, as soon as I am reminded I forget him again. Don't ever feel like we miss him.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Bluedylan on October 10, 2018, 12:34:07 PM
The team's more settled now than when Coleman played earlier in the season. He'll feel the benefit of more solid presences along side him in Keane, Zouma and Digne when he comes back. Much better player than Kenny.

Big Marcel should be on the blower around Europe, looking for the next breakthrough right back to give a pat to as he comes back into the dressing room.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Juanito on October 10, 2018, 01:03:41 PM
Coleman, definitely but looking forward to see what Gomes offers and as much as I like Davies, I really think we need some physicality alongside Gana and Sigurdsson, also someone with positional sense. If he is box to box, knows when to go and when to sit.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: piggypop on October 10, 2018, 06:29:34 PM
I don't get it on here at times when we have 28-29 year old players and people are calling them over the hill and needing replaced. He's coming 30 but we are talking about a one of the best right backs in the league in recent years and other than an horrific injury has kept himself pretty fit and in good shape and doesn't go out on the bevvy or get out of shape during the summer, He is still in his prime years and probably will be for another year or two. A player built like Coleman can easily play at this level for another 2 probably 3 years providing he avoids another bad injury. Absolutely bonkers to be talking about replacing him in the summer, find and nurture his replacement maybe but not replace him immediately. Plenty players in the modern game are playing at the highest level well into their 30's.
I agree with that, but it almost seems pointless to bring in a player to nurture. That's what we're supposed to be doing with Kenny. If we bring in another youngster, people will just moan he's not as good as Coleman and should be sold/loaned and replaced.
We may as well wait until Coleman needs replacing (not yet) and then bring in a first teamer.
Until then it would be nice to see some patience with our youngsters, as there aren't many 20 year old rightbacks in the premier league right now, even though I know that's impossible for most people.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Jimmywhack on October 10, 2018, 06:36:48 PM
Its gotta be coleman, it would possibly be gomes if it was valencai gomes, truth us none of us know what he is gonna be like though
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Mouse on October 10, 2018, 07:26:19 PM
Definitely Coleman, gives us more both defensively and going forward. Should make Walcott's life easier as well. Then it would be Gomes because he could be the missing link and I'm looking forward to seeing if he can reproduce his Valencia form (plus he's a handsome bastard).

Keane and Zouma are doing well enough that there really is no rush for Mina, although I'm allowing myself to dream that he will be banging them in from corners (how many did we have against Leicester?).

Been so long that I'm not sure what McCarthy can bring to the current midfield.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: hannu on October 10, 2018, 07:44:28 PM
People saying Coleman, id argue Kennys done a better job this season.

kenny is no where near good enough atm, he gets caught out far too oftern in defence and as he is a defender thats kind of important
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: brap2 on October 12, 2018, 12:07:59 AM
Coleman is better than Kenny, but Coleman is 30 with a double broken leg not far in the past and a history of niggles since.

We should try and replace Coleman in the summer, anyone denying it is lying to themselves.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Gash on October 12, 2018, 12:18:11 AM
Coleman is better than Kenny, but Coleman is 30 with a double broken leg not far in the past and a history of niggles since.

We should try and replace Coleman in the summer, anyone denying it is lying to themselves.

Pretty much every player coming back from a serious injury suffers niggles after it, regardless of age.

Sometimes think if you had your way we'd have a policy too sell everyone over 25 and have a bunch of naive kids running around the park. 30's not old for a footballer in this day and age.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: brap2 on October 12, 2018, 12:33:48 AM
Pretty much every player coming back from a serious injury suffers niggles after it, regardless of age.

Sometimes think if you had your way we'd have a policy too sell everyone over 25 and have a bunch of naive kids running around the park. 30's not old in this day and age.

No I just want us to avoid the mistakes of the past, which left us in situations like Jags, Distin, Howard, Baines, even Williams....relying on players not to drop off a physical ledge in the most physically demanding league in the world.

Iím not saying get him out the side immediately, im saying try and replace him, make some moves on players and start seeing if we can bring someone in who would be a good replacement if they make a case for it on the pitch.

Why must we leave everything until itís desperate? Especially in positions weíve relied on for 10 years?

When did we last sign a decent right back to give him competition? Is that normal? Is that sensible? Itís absolutely fine to suddenly have to rely on an inexperienced U23 player we promote, or shuttle some shite like Martina into the gap like we had to do last year?

Honestly if you think no itís OK Coleman will (probably) be fine, then you are taking a gamble you donít need to take with the future of the side.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Gash on October 12, 2018, 12:52:50 AM
No I just want us to avoid the mistakes of the past, which left us in situations like Jags, Distin, Howard, Baines, even Williams....relying on players not to drop off a physical ledge in the most physically demanding league in the world.

Iím not saying get him out the side immediately, im saying try and replace him, make some moves on players and start seeing if we can bring someone in who would be a good replacement if they make a case for it on the pitch.

Why must we leave everything until itís desperate? Especially in positions weíve relied on for 10 years?

When did we last sign a decent right back to give him competition? Is that normal? Is that sensible? Itís absolutely fine to suddenly have to rely on an inexperienced U23 player we promote, or shuttle some shite like Martina into the gap like we had to do last year?

Honestly if you think no itís OK Coleman will (probably) be fine, then you are taking a gamble you donít need to take with the future of the side.

How many positions throughout the squad do we have two quality players for? I'm not disagreeing with finding someone to eventually replace him in a couple of years but at 30 and as fit as he's kept himself over the years he'll do at least another two years barring another serious injury but that could happen to anyone regardless of age. Coleman's probably one of the fittest most disciplined players in the league.

I don't really see the relevance of Jags, Distin, Howard and Baines etc, if anything using them backs up what I'm saying. Yes we held on too long in the end but when they were 30-32 they were still playing at the top level of their abilities, and in Distin's case we didn't even buy him until he was nearly 32 and he turned out to be a very good signing bar his last year or so by which time he was about 37.

You're basically saying that every player of 29-30 should be replaced which would just be daft, especially if they're still playing at the top of their game. You've got a right thing about 29-30 year old players being over the hill and needing sold, there's umpteen examples of players who've looked after themselves playing well into their 30's at the very top.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Escla on October 12, 2018, 01:06:33 AM
Think Man City signed Frank Lampard when he was 35, put a decent shift in for them, wasnít Terry playing for Chelsea at 36 ?
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: brap2 on October 12, 2018, 01:20:26 AM
How many positions throughout the squad do we have two quality players for? I'm not disagreeing with finding someone to eventually replace him in a couple of years but at 30 and as fit as he's kept himself over the years he'll do at least another two years barring another serious injury but that could happen to anyone regardless of age. Coleman's probably one of the fittest most disciplined players in the league.

I don't really see the relevance of Jags, Distin, Howard and Baines etc, if anything using them backs up what I'm saying. Yes we held on too long in the end but when they were 30-32 they were still playing at the top level of their abilities, and in Distin's case we didn't even buy him until he was nearly 32 and he turned out to be a very good signing bar his last year or so by which time he was about 37.

You're basically saying that every player of 29-30 should be replaced which would just be daft, especially if they're still playing at the top of their game. You've got a right thing about 29-30 year old players being over the hill and needing sold, there's umpteen examples of players who've looked after themselves playing well into their 30's at the very top.

Every player getting into their 30ís we should be looking to replace yeah.

What youíre saying is heís doing ok and heís not going to fall apart immediately (although maybe) so leave it until we need to - that thinking is one of the reasons we havenít  moved forwards as a football club.

We are not going to achieve anything right now, so we should get talent that in 2-3 years time when we should ideally be in the right place to have a good enough side to achieve something, the players who will achieve it are 25-28 and ready to bang, not either 30+ and still trucking along or 24 and under and only just purchased.

@Escla (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5210) good shouts mate yeah city and Chelsea we are exactly like them arenít we.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Escla on October 12, 2018, 01:22:46 AM
Brad, just saying players in their mid thirties can still play at the top level, thatís all  ???
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: brap2 on October 12, 2018, 01:24:16 AM
Also there are shades between looking to replace - it takes a couple of iterations especially if you are everton to eventually get the right player to take over from someone like Coleman - and replace. Might take 2 windows, might take 3, but we should be trying.

Although if I was absolutely pressed on it and I was making the decision - is seamus coleman currently one of the top 5 right backs in the league?

Probably somewhere in between Ďwe donít know anymoreí or Ďnoí.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: brap2 on October 12, 2018, 01:25:52 AM
Brad, just saying players in their mid thirties can still play at the top level, thatís all  ???

100% they can and picking up older or out of contract players that can still do a job is a very smart move, like we did with Barry for instance.

But if you are building and looking to achieve something in the future - itís not a great idea.

Not all players get better, but all players get worse.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Martip on October 12, 2018, 01:28:12 AM
Also there are shades between looking to replace - it takes a couple of iterations especially if you are everton to eventually get the right player to take over from someone like Coleman - and replace. Might take 2 windows, might take 3, but we should be trying.

Although if I was absolutely pressed on it and I was making the decision - is seamus coleman currently one of the top 5 right backs in the league?

Probably somewhere in between Ďwe donít know anymoreí or Ďnoí.
He's not been good so far this season but I can't write him off just yet....
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: brap2 on October 12, 2018, 01:29:16 AM
He's not been good so far this season but I can't write him off just yet....

No Iíd hate to as well, I absolutely love that little bastard.

But if marcel isnít looking at replacements then heís not doing his job properly.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Gash on October 12, 2018, 01:33:01 AM
Every player getting into their 30ís we should be looking to replace yeah.

No I wouldn't say that, not if they're still at their same level, which many still can do.

What youíre saying is heís doing ok and heís not going to fall apart immediately (although maybe) so leave it until we need to - that thinking is one of the reasons we havenít  moved forwards as a football club.

No I'm not saying I think "he's doing ok" I'm saying that bar another serious injury I think he can still play at a very high level, probably even a level that we'll be lucky to find someone equal to never mind better for at least another coupe if years. You're making it sound like it's unheard of to sustain that level into the early/mid 30's.

We are not going to achieve anything right now, so we should get talent that in 2-3 years time when we should ideally be in the right place to have a good enough side to achieve something, the players who will achieve it are 25-28 and ready to bang, not either 30+ and still trucking along or 24 and under and only just purchased.

We're not always going to be able to buy players "ready to bang" so have to get a mix of players. Buying young players to bring through and using the older experienced players to do it is how it works in most places. There's not a thing wrong with having players in the 30's or early 20's either. Again you're making out that 28 is when they've peaked and will only go down from there, which as you would say is "absolute wham" :)
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: D15TIN on October 12, 2018, 01:37:07 AM
No I’d hate to as well, I absolutely love that little bastard.

But if marcel isn’t looking at replacements then he’s not doing his job properly.
There was everton scouts watching a porto game recently I heard, meant to be looking at a RB there I think
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: brap2 on October 12, 2018, 01:45:51 AM
No I wouldn't say that, not if they're still at their same level, which many still can do.

No I'm not saying I think "he's doing ok" I'm saying that bar another serious injury I think he can still play at a very high level, probably even a level that we'll be lucky to find someone equal to never mind better for at least another coupe if years. You're making it sound like it's unheard of to sustain that level into the early/mid 30's.

We're not always going to be able to buy players "ready to bang" so have to get a mix of players. Buying young players to bring through and using the older experienced players to do it is how it works in most places. There's not a thing wrong with having players in the 30's or early 20's either. Again you're making out that 28 is when they've peaked and will only go down from there, which as you would say is "absolute wham" :)

Youíre either misunderstanding what iím saying or intentionally ignoring it.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: D15TIN on October 12, 2018, 02:02:08 AM
that was the guy I think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo%C3%A3o_Pedro_Maturano_dos_Santos

I remember it saying that they'd only just signed him in the summer, but were still interested
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Gash on October 12, 2018, 04:15:54 AM
Youíre either misunderstanding what iím saying or intentionally ignoring it.

Funnily enough, I was thinking just the same.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Escla on October 12, 2018, 04:29:58 AM
There was everton scouts watching a porto game recently I heard, meant to be looking at a RB there I think

Fine, as long as he doesnít cost more than 60 grand !
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: brap2 on October 12, 2018, 06:12:24 AM
Funnily enough, I was thinking just the same.

Fair enough, agree to disagree on this one.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Jamokachi on October 12, 2018, 09:15:22 AM
Not sure why @brap2 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) is having to explain himself here. We'd be naive to think that a replacement/upgrade for Coleman isn't on the cards in the next couple of years. We don't want a repeat of the Baines situation. Coleman isn't going to get better, and chances are more and more injuries will creep into his game as he get older. He's great for us, that's not being questioned. But if we can find younger and better, then why the hell not.
Title: Re: Which player we need back the most
Post by: Juanito on October 12, 2018, 03:20:25 PM
Think Man City signed Frank Lampard when he was 35, put a decent shift in for them, wasnít Terry playing for Chelsea at 36 ?

Want our modern full backs up and down the flanks as much as possible. Not much use having a 36 year old full back trying to get up and down the pitch. Iím with Brap, letís get a wonderkid in for January and build him up to start next season to at least compete and eventually edge out Coleman. Our last back four all aged and got to old together and that leaves us re-shuffling and adjusting a near all new back four at once, which has caused problems.