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NSNO Forums => The Everton Forum => Topic started by: Juanito on March 11, 2019, 01:47:01 AM

Title: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on March 11, 2019, 01:47:01 AM
Watching the game against Newcastle I was surprised how much he engaged with their fans and allowed it to distract him. He was goading them and that flap then embarrassing rugby tackle fitted someone who was not mentally prepared. He seems like a young, cocky Joe Hart on the beak and he is starting to really get to me because he is seems to be disrespectful to Everton Football Club with his attitude. The way he smirks or shrugs off his impulsive errors time after time says he is not learning and too comfortable in the comfort zone.

He should probably take a look at Joe Hart and see where he is at now, 2nd or 3rd Choice at Burnley.  Saying that, would happily bring in Pope in the summer to give him a run for his money.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 11, 2019, 01:49:25 AM
He allowed being a Sunderland fan to get in the way of being an Everton player.

He's young and he's a goalie, and they're all mental.

Its more that he just will not catch a fucking ball that gets me
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 11, 2019, 02:09:32 AM
Let the occasion get to him big time.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 11, 2019, 02:21:44 AM
At times I was expecting him to start doing big box little box in his penalty area.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hawkandro on March 11, 2019, 02:41:39 AM
It doesn't help that he has no competition for the shirt. We need to address that in the summer.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on March 11, 2019, 03:35:27 AM
Iíll be honest, Iím always nervous when heís called into action, even though some of his saves are really great, as are his long throws, and kicks from his hand.

The constant punching, tense kicking from the ground, pushing saves back into the danger area, and mad grinning and shouting leave me pretty jittery most games!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on March 11, 2019, 03:40:25 AM
It doesn't help that he has no competition for the shirt. We need to address that in the summer.

Top class 'keepers self motivate without the need of a threat to their place.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Thornton_19 on March 11, 2019, 03:49:14 AM
I in no way think he is a bad goalkeeper, i just think he is a bit of an idiot. Sometimes we see it leak onto the pitch.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on March 11, 2019, 04:26:46 AM
I in no way think he is a bad goalkeeper, i just think he is a bit of an idiot. Sometimes we see it leak onto the pitch.

I agree with this.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 11, 2019, 04:50:37 AM
The smirk after twatting it into touch for the umpteenth time in a game grates on me.

Needs a rocket from the management and he needs to grow up because he's made himself look an absolute clown yesterday, not to mention small time.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on March 11, 2019, 03:24:35 PM
I in no way think he is a bad goalkeeper, i just think he is a bit of an idiot. Sometimes we see it leak onto the pitch.

Hes not bad, but I think he thinks hes a lot better than he is. At this point Id be happy to give Stekelenburg a run, thats how bad he is currently playing and I think he'd benefit from it too so he could get his head out of his ass and realise he is very much part of the problem, which I dont think he currently does!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gary1878 on March 11, 2019, 03:37:16 PM
I do think there is an issue with him getting overexcited. He needs to lead by example in terms of being a calm head to the rest of the team, and is the most important position on the pitch in that respect.

This game was a lot worse for Jordan than the derby, as he made numerous errors throughout (some he got away with, others he didn't). His handling and kicking were awful, and if it wasn't for his shot-stopping ability, which is world-class, it would have been even more of a nightmare than it was.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on March 11, 2019, 03:37:50 PM
He just needs a fucking bollocking from the manager and coaches to make sure his headís in the game. Iím sure he knows it himself; the crux will come if he knows itís but isnít willing to/canít change. Some goalkeepers just want to be more involved in games than they should.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 11, 2019, 03:55:05 PM
I don't think he's very likeable. If he played for someone else I'd actively hate him I think.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 11, 2019, 05:08:51 PM
Goalkeepers are lunatics. Always have been, always will be.

Let's not pretend otherwise.

He's let his head go away at Newcastle and he's suffered - as has his team. He will know this as much as anyone and he'll learn.

He's a new dad, he's 25, he's a goalkeeper, he's away at his bitterest rivals, and we were 2-0 up early enough on (and he'd "got away" with the penalty thing)

He needs a bollocking for sure but he's a good keeper and he's Everton.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bigdunc9 on March 11, 2019, 05:35:21 PM
Goalkeepers are lunatics. Always have been, always will be.

Let's not pretend otherwise.

He's let his head go away at Newcastle and he's suffered - as has his team. He will know this as much as anyone and he'll learn.

He's a new dad, he's 25, he's a goalkeeper, he's away at his bitterest rivals, and we were 2-0 up early enough on (and he'd "got away" with the penalty thing)

He needs a bollocking for sure but he's a good keeper and he's Everton.
Spot on.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 11, 2019, 06:07:36 PM
Not for me I don't think. Could be a nice profit in him if we move him on and invest wisely.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluenose 91 on March 11, 2019, 06:13:25 PM
I think the people saying throw Steklenburg in are forgetting every single shot that goes near him ends up in the net.

Pickford was horrific on Saturday but you'd think he's doing it every game with some of the reaction. Before that when was his last real bad game/mistake?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on March 11, 2019, 06:17:11 PM
Goalkeepers are lunatics. Always have been, always will be.

Let's not pretend otherwise.

He's let his head go away at Newcastle and he's suffered - as has his team. He will know this as much as anyone and he'll learn.

He's a new dad, he's 25, he's a goalkeeper, he's away at his bitterest rivals, and we were 2-0 up early enough on (and he'd "got away" with the penalty thing)

He needs a bollocking for sure but he's a good keeper and he's Everton.

Yes.  He wears his heart on his sleeve, which can be a good thing if channeled properly.

The potential is tremendous, he just has to mature and learn.  Also coming down off the "World Cup hero" thing is a challenge (remember Timmy Howard's season after that blinder he played against Belgium?).

In fact, might really do some good for Howard to talk to him (since Howard, in all his comments I've seen, is Everton in his heart for life).

I can't predict the future.  However, I do know that, especially at this stage of the rebuild effort, I'd rather have a keeper with tremendous potential - even with the batshit antics - than a bog standard average keeper.

And be honest with yourselves - THAT is the alternative.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on March 11, 2019, 06:18:35 PM
I think the people saying throw Steklenburg in are forgetting every single shot that goes near him ends up in the net.

Pickford was horrific on Saturday but you'd think he's doing it every game with some of the reaction. Before that when was his last real bad game/mistake?

He also made some fantastic saves on Saturday, before it went all tits up.

We don't get that point off the Shite without him.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 11, 2019, 06:20:57 PM
That's why we need to spend a decent amount of money on a good back up keeper.

He's been poor for most of the season but he's not droppable because of what's behind him.

He's probably hit a comfort zone after the world cup. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 11, 2019, 06:24:27 PM
I think the people saying throw Steklenburg in are forgetting every single shot that goes near him ends up in the net.

Pickford was horrific on Saturday but you'd think he's doing it every game with some of the reaction. Before that when was his last real bad game/mistake?

Apparently heís top this season for mistakes leading to goals
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 11, 2019, 06:25:28 PM
We don't get that point off the Shite without him.

Maybe not but we get one from the game at Anfield instead without him don't we
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluenose 91 on March 11, 2019, 06:26:17 PM
I think he was really good up until the Derby, like most of them, but obviously it was his big mistake.

Had a few shaky moments since but nowhere near as bad as being made out.

He's 25. He'll be sound.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on March 11, 2019, 06:29:44 PM
Maybe not but we get one from the game at Anfield instead without him don't we


That was a total fluke.  Could have happened to anyone.  And he was flawless leading up to that, hard to imagine Stek pitching a shutout at Anfield.

Hell, maybe that fluke is partially why Pickford was so locked in for the home fixture.

Anyway, that World Cup stuff is a lot to deal with, mentally and physically.

Several marquee players who went deep in the Cup had poor starts to their League seasons, and/or have struggled to stay healthy (De Bruyne for example)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on March 11, 2019, 06:31:20 PM
That's why we need to spend a decent amount of money on a good back up keeper.

He's been poor for most of the season but he's not droppable because of what's behind him.

He's probably hit a comfort zone after the world cup. 

Not against this at all.  Pickford has played every minute of every Prem match this season.  That's a lot to ask of him, and it's not like Stek is really even cup-usable (if we take them seriously at all).

We'd also be up shit creek if he got injured.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluenose 91 on March 11, 2019, 06:32:41 PM
Apparently heís top this season for mistakes leading to goals

Just looked and he is yeah, on 4. Two more than De Gea and Allison.

Dunno maybe I'm being over defensive of him but just don't think his form/ability is that big an issue.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 11, 2019, 06:37:00 PM
Could have happened to anyone.

Funny that as I've never seen the like before.

Just face it, he's prone to an absolute clanger on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ross on March 11, 2019, 06:43:13 PM
Not having this excuse heís a young keeper heís 25 now with 3 seasons in the top flight behind him and over 200 professional games of experience to call on, weíre not talking about some 21 year old kid whoís just forced his way into the team here.

His judgment should be better than we saw Saturday (which was shambolic from the kick off) or during many many other times this season. His problem is he lacks focus because he clearly doesnít lack ability or confidence, all the very best keepers have a composure about them but sadly it looks like heís got none at all.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 11, 2019, 06:43:19 PM
Funny that as I've never seen the like before.

Just face it, he's prone to an absolute clanger on a regular basis.

did you not see the Pepe Reina one in the Goodison derby about 10 years ago?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 11, 2019, 06:54:53 PM
did you not see the Pepe Reina one in the Goodison derby about 10 years ago?

The ball wasn't going to just go straight out of play when Reina did it
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on March 11, 2019, 07:04:15 PM
Not having this excuse heís a young keeper heís 25 now with 3 seasons in the top flight behind him and over 200 professional games of experience to call on, weíre not talking about some 21 year old kid whoís just forced his way into the team here.

His judgment should be better than we saw Saturday (which was shambolic from the kick off) or during many many other times this season. His problem is he lacks focus because he clearly doesnít lack ability or confidence, all the very best keepers have a composure about them but sadly it looks like heís got none at all.

Seems like an accurate description to me. I think he could have composure but chooses to be a bit of a cocky maverick instead.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: duncandisorderly on March 11, 2019, 07:11:50 PM
Not sure about him at all. He's got the tools to be brilliant, agile, good shot stopper but he's an absolute fruitcake. Decision making is poor to say the least, refuses to catch a ball in the box and his kicking, which he was famed for, has been shite (bar the odd ball like to Bernard in the Derby). We definitely need a better back up that you would be happy to throw in when Pickford needs a spell out to give his head a wobble. His career could go either way still and he needs to learn from his mistakes quickly.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ross on March 11, 2019, 07:16:12 PM
Seems like an accurate description to me. I think he could have composure but chooses to be a bit of a cocky maverick instead.

Not sure itís something you can choose to have to be honest itís more of a personality trait.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kramer0 on March 11, 2019, 07:18:24 PM
He doesn't seem to be picking up any good habits.

Maybe we need to consider a different goalkeeping coach for him.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on March 11, 2019, 07:20:38 PM
He doesn't seem to be picking up any good habits.

Maybe we need to consider a different goalkeeping coach for him.

Spot on. He's either not listening, which is an issue, or he's not getting told the right things from the right calibre of coach to take advice from.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on March 11, 2019, 07:39:15 PM
Southall has offered but club not interested
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on March 11, 2019, 07:42:04 PM
Southall has offered but club not interested

How do we know this ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 11, 2019, 07:54:12 PM
Heís only made 2 more mistakes that have led to a goal than Alisson and de Gea?

Those two are in the Oblak and ter Stegen league at the moment, so Pickford is on the right track imo.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on March 11, 2019, 08:10:38 PM
Big Nev writes a column in i newspaper and stated that he has offered his services to the club. In his own words: "As usual, Everton not interested"
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on March 11, 2019, 08:12:57 PM
If you will pardon the "other sport" reference, this is like evaluating baseball infield defense.

There are plenty of shortstops who are elite defensively (due to range) who still make a fair amount of errors.

As opposed to a poor defender (classic example is Jeter) who doesn't make many errors, but doesn't get to nearly as many balls because has the range of a tree stump.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YellowHold on March 11, 2019, 08:17:46 PM
Maybe we need to consider a different goalkeeping coach for him.

I would say the opposite is more likely the issue

We've changed goalkeeping coach with every manager change in his 18 months here

Including another with England having 4 different coaches with 4 different ideas of what he should be doing over a very short period is not likely to be helpful
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 11, 2019, 08:18:59 PM
Heís only made 2 more mistakes that have led to a goal than Alisson and de Gea?

Those two are in the Oblak and ter Stegen league at the moment, so Pickford is on the right track imo.

Meanwhile in the real world, anyone with eyeballs knows this does not reflect reality.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 11, 2019, 08:21:36 PM
Heís only made 2 more mistakes that have led to a goal than Alisson and de Gea?

Those two are in the Oblak and ter Stegen league at the moment, so Pickford is on the right track imo.

Not 100% sure on that stat tbh.

What I read was that he's made more than any player leading to shots or goals. Not keeper, but any player of any position.

Errors or not though he's just a mad head who doesn't command his box as well as a much cheaper keeper could.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 11, 2019, 08:22:45 PM
Probably because heís sixty and weighs a thousand stone
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 11, 2019, 08:23:09 PM
Heís only made 2 more mistakes that have led to a goal than Alisson and de Gea?

Those two are in the Oblak and ter Stegen league at the moment, so Pickford is on the right track imo.
If only it were as simple equation as that !
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on March 11, 2019, 08:31:47 PM
Old Bigger BinMan would sort out JP's rubbish goalkeeping!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on March 11, 2019, 08:38:17 PM
Big Nev writes a column in i newspaper and stated that he has offered his services to the club. In his own words: "As usual, Everton not interested"

Really, whatís going on there ? Who did he piss off in the current regime ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on March 11, 2019, 08:43:06 PM
No idea!

Kenwright?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on March 11, 2019, 08:54:59 PM
Really, what’s going on there ? Who did he piss off in the current regime ?

He's hardly in a fit state to even walk onto a training pitch and show Pickford what he should/shouldn't be doing. I agree his experience and advice would be invaluable but he genuinely looks a breath away from a heart attack at any given moment.

He's also been pretty outspoken in the past I think, which is the main issue.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 11, 2019, 08:58:54 PM
Lifted from the BBC

Player Errors Leading to Shots (inc. Goals):
Jordan Pickford   7
Asmir Begovic   5
Martin Dubravka   5
Sergio Rico   4
Alisson   4
Hugo Lloris   4
Rui Patricio   4
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 11, 2019, 09:02:24 PM
Lifted from the BBC

Player Errors Leading to Shots (inc. Goals):
Jordan Pickford   7
Asmir Begovic   5
Martin Dubravka   5
Sergio Rico   4
Alisson   4
Hugo Lloris   4
Rui Patricio   4
So the worst in the prem. I would also add to that hes probs up there with some of the worst at coming for crosses which will have caused numerous other chances/goals not to mention panic in our already fragile defence.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 11, 2019, 10:33:42 PM
Ah. So only some stats count. Noted.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 11, 2019, 10:59:01 PM
Ah. So only some stats count. Noted.

If you want to hang your hat on that one from before, crack on pal.

Those living on planet earth will probably disregard it though unfortunately.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 12, 2019, 12:06:34 AM
If you want to hang your hat on that one from before, crack on pal.

Those living on planet earth will probably disregard it though unfortunately.

Ok sound. Just wanted a bit of clarity on what counts and when.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on March 12, 2019, 12:49:30 AM
Really, whatís going on there ? Who did he piss off in the current regime ?

We're not the only club in the league. He's had 20 odd years to go and prove his coaching ability.
He used to be a good player so must be a good coach and he used to play for us so will be an even better coach for us is a ridiculous notion.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on March 12, 2019, 12:57:03 AM
We're not the only club in the league. He's had 20 odd years to go and prove his coaching ability.
He used to be a good player so must be a good coach and he used to play for us so will be an even better coach for us is a ridiculous notion.

Whose saying he is or might be a good coach ? I just asked who he had pissed off to the extent that he appears to be a former player who is not welcome at the club.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on March 12, 2019, 01:12:55 AM
Whose saying he is or might be a good coach ? I just asked who he had pissed off to the extent that he appears to be a former player who is not welcome at the club.

Mmmmm.  You seemed to be saying the only reason he is not a part of the club is because he pissed someone off rather than his lack of coaching experience.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on March 12, 2019, 01:44:15 AM
Letís face it, Pickford is a clown. Makes some great saves at times but he is far from assured.

His performance and attitude on the weekend wasnít at the standard we need, and dropping him would send the right message.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 12, 2019, 01:47:37 AM
Mmmmm.  You seemed to be saying the only reason he is not a part of the club is because he pissed someone off rather than his lack of coaching experience.
Ten years ago I had to buy him a ticket to the match as the club wouldn't give him one for free. There was no way on earth I was letting him buy his own.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: eyesalwaysblue on March 12, 2019, 01:52:30 AM
We never give out cozy staff appointments to X players who haven't proved their worth elsewhere do we.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheTone on March 12, 2019, 01:57:24 AM
Immature isn't he, 25 eh? State of most of us at 25, imagine playing the shite at that age, I'm getting sent off anyway

He'll be fine
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 12, 2019, 02:17:42 AM
We never give out cozy staff appointments to X players who haven't proved their worth elsewhere do we.
Absolutely Duncan not
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sirblue57 on March 12, 2019, 02:22:28 AM
Ten years ago I had to buy him a ticket to the match as the club wouldn't give him one for free. There was no way on earth I was letting him buy his own.
If this is true, the club should be ashamed.
One of the greatest players ever, should not be treated like that. No matter what.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Stumpy on March 12, 2019, 02:26:16 AM
I don't think he's very likeable. If he played for someone else I'd actively hate him I think.
I said the exact same thing to my mate yesterday.There are a number of  players from other teams that really wind me up on ocations,and if he didn't play for us he would be added to the list.I don't care what he gets up to or who he winds up if he's 100% on top of his game,but he aint,so I just wish he would keep his head down and do his job.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on March 12, 2019, 02:27:17 AM
Weíve got the England keeper as our number one and some people are still not happy...

Allegedly heís made 3 more mistakes than far experienced ďbetterĒ international goal keepers

So how do we resolve it.....drop him for a far less expensive keeper...who must be better coz he never cost as much !!!!

FFS......No wonder they call us bitter blues....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on March 12, 2019, 02:35:43 AM
Weíve got the England keeper as our number one and some people are still not happy...

Allegedly heís made 3 more mistakes than far experienced ďbetterĒ international goal keepers

So how do we resolve it.....drop him for a far less expensive keeper...who must be better coz he never cost as much !!!!

FFS......No wonder they call us bitter blues....

Iím not sure where any of that suggests bitterness
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on March 12, 2019, 02:40:31 AM
Sorry mate....itís more the general bemoaning of the player....by quite frankly people whom I dare to suggest may not have played football particularly goalkeeper at any decent level in their lives...but can tell everyone on here how players think, should think, what they should do, what they shouldnít do...and how they should/shouldnít do it...

Jeez went on one there......

Deep breaths.....
Sorry
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: D15TIN on March 12, 2019, 02:41:15 AM
He doesn't seem to be picking up any good habits.

Maybe we need to consider a different goalkeeping coach for him.
Our current one has coached Ederson and De Gea hasn't he?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 12, 2019, 02:50:46 AM
Oh lord no I wouldn't drop him, no chance. He could definitely be one of the best in Europe, but we need to rebuild the side and its a bit like having a nice motorbike chained up outside your house which is currently made out of empty shoeboxes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kramer0 on March 12, 2019, 02:54:59 AM
Our current one has coached Ederson and De Gea hasn't he?

Worked for Benfica so maybe Ederson and Oblak.

Whoever he's coached in the past, he doesn't seem to be up to much with Pickford.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 02:55:46 AM
Oh lord no I wouldn't drop him, no chance. He could definitely be one of the best in Europe, but we need to rebuild the side and its a bit like having a nice motorbike chained up outside your house which is currently made out of empty shoeboxes.

You make this point about selling to "re-build" a lot. At which point do you stop the revolving door of players and work with what you've got, slightly adding and tweaking where needed. Surely part of the problem we see is that this team has additions from 5 different managers. Continuity and consistency is far more valuable in my book, and that comes from investing time in your players (making them your players).
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 12, 2019, 02:58:38 AM
Weíve got the England keeper as our number one and some people are still not happy...

Allegedly heís made 3 more mistakes than far experienced ďbetterĒ international goal keepers

So how do we resolve it.....drop him for a far less expensive keeper...who must be better coz he never cost as much !!!!

FFS......No wonder they call us bitter blues....

Wonít be Englandís number 1 for much longer. Can we complain then?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 12, 2019, 02:59:48 AM
You make this point about selling to "re-build" a lot. At which point do you stop the revolving door of players and work with what you've got, slightly adding and tweaking where needed. Surely part of the problem we see is that this team has additions from 5 different managers. Continuity and consistency is far more valuable in my book, and that comes from investing time in your players (making them your players).

When you`re not boiled shite?

Listen if we kept him and he was part of the team we build great because he's got tons of potential.

Just thinking about the fact moshiri's millions won't last forever and have potentially already got to the point where we're not going to be getting a cheque in the summer and we have to make some to spend some...he's still a marketable asset that we could potentially make profit on.

The likes of tosun, Walcott, bolasie, maybe even Micheal Keane, it's really more of a get rid of the wages type situation.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 03:08:02 AM
When you`re not boiled shite?

Listen if we kept him and he was part of the team we build great because he's got tons of potential.

Just thinking about the fact moshiri's millions won't last forever and have potentially already got to the point where we're not going to be getting a cheque in the summer and we have to make some to spend some...he's still a marketable asset that we could potentially make profit on.

The likes of tosun, Walcott, bolasie, maybe even Micheal Keane, it's really more of a get rid of the wages type situation.

I agree with three of the last four (age and development potential being massive factors), and wages are the biggest consideration. We've seen a change in tactics since Brands came in, we do seem to be trying to be shrewder with our cash. I don't think we need to be positioning ourselves in this buy to sell model, again. Yes, every player has a price but to actively seek to sell is ridiculous. The younger player in the squad all have the potential to develop into very, very good players. Pickford is included in that. As I say, continuity and consistency is what this whole club is crying out for after the last 6/7 years.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 12, 2019, 03:14:48 AM
The thing is if we invested pickford funds in another area where we weare struggling it would be much more beneficial.

We could bring in a keeper for a third of his supposed market value and be no worse off atm and if we use those additional funds up front for example it would be more beneficial than bringing in another tosun.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on March 12, 2019, 03:19:15 AM
Mmmmm.  You seemed to be saying the only reason he is not a part of the club is because he pissed someone off rather than his lack of coaching experience.

See Siís response, you donít deny a former legend a match ticket because you donít rate him as a coach, itís personal. FFS have you seen some of tha also rans that we herald as heroes in the Fan Zone pre match , half of them not fit to clean Nevs boots in the day.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 12, 2019, 03:22:33 AM
I agree with three of the last four (age and development potential being massive factors), and wages are the biggest consideration. We've seen a change in tactics since Brands came in, we do seem to be trying to be shrewder with our cash. I don't think we need to be positioning ourselves in this buy to sell model, again. Yes, every player has a price but to actively seek to sell is ridiculous. The younger player in the squad all have the potential to develop into very, very good players. Pickford is included in that. As I say, continuity and consistency is what this whole club is crying out for after the last 6/7 years.

All fair, he's a good young player and that's what we should look to have. My argument is there's maybe too much tied up in him that we could use elsewhere but that's a bit bean-county I suppose.

Would probably say I'm more happy to accept than actively selling too.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 03:22:34 AM
The thing is if we invested pickford funds in another area where we weare struggling it would be much more beneficial.

We could bring in a keeper for a third of his supposed market value and be no worse off atm and if we use those additional funds up front for example it would be more beneficial than bringing in another tosun.

Could we, really? Because this point keeps getting made and yet there is absolutely zero evidence. Have you seen the prices being paid for any half decent keeper these days? I't a pie in the sky football manager shout.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 03:24:38 AM
See Siís response, you donít deny a former legend a match ticket because you donít rate him as a coach, itís personal. FFS have you seen some of tha also rans that we herald as heroes in the Fan Zone pre match , half of them not fit to clean Nevs boots in the day.

In fairness, Nev can be a very abrasive character. Maybe he has upset people at the club, doesn't mean it's the clubs fault.

As for his offer of coaching, there's a reason he hasn't been involved in the game for years and years.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 12, 2019, 03:39:55 AM
Could we, really? Because this point keeps getting made and yet there is absolutely zero evidence. Have you seen the prices being paid for any half decent keeper these days? I't a pie in the sky football manager shout.
The point is you could sell pickford and replace him someone cheap but a safe pair of hands. Not him but someone like  a slightly younger Ben foster and currently our team wouldn't be much worse off if at all.

However let's say we looked to buy a forward and would spend tosun money pre a pickford sale on them, we would get a lot more uplift in the team performances with the difference between him and top forward than pickford and another goalkeeper.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 03:45:31 AM
The point is you could sell pickford and replace him someone cheap but a safe pair of hands. Not him but someone like  a slightly younger Ben foster and currently our team wouldn't be much worse off if at all.

However let's say we looked to buy a forward and would spend tosun money pre a pickford sale on them, we would get a lot more uplift in the team performances with the difference between him and top forward than pickford and another goalkeeper.

I understand your point, I just think it's crap. I'd also argue we have enough money to spend without resorting to selling a long term player for a stop gap that gives us another headache in a couple of seasons.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 12, 2019, 03:51:38 AM
I agree with three of the last four (age and development potential being massive factors), and wages are the biggest consideration. We've seen a change in tactics since Brands came in, we do seem to be trying to be shrewder with our cash. I don't think we need to be positioning ourselves in this buy to sell model, again. Yes, every player has a price but to actively seek to sell is ridiculous. The younger player in the squad all have the potential to develop into very, very good players. Pickford is included in that. As I say, continuity and consistency is what this whole club is crying out for after the last 6/7 years.

Surely being shrewder means both in terms of buying and selling. A shrewd move would have been seeing Pickford flaws and shifting him on in the summer when he was a England hero and totally overhyped. If Chelseaís interest was real we could have potentially gotten a massive fee for him

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:00:11 AM
Surely being shrewder means both in terms of buying and selling. A shrewd move would have been seeing Pickford flaws and shifting him on in the summer when he was a England hero and totally overhyped. If Chelseaís interest was real we could have potentially gotten a massive fee for him

Good enough for Chelsea but not us, and because we didn't sell we're not shrewd? Or, we see the potential he has, acknowledge his weaknesses, decide to work on those and have ourselves one of the country's top keepers for the next decade or so.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 12, 2019, 04:17:48 AM
Good enough for Chelsea but not us, and because we didn't sell we're not shrewd? Or, we see the potential he has, acknowledge his weaknesses, decide to work on those and have ourselves one of the country's top keepers for the next decade or so.

Looking at what Chelsea paid for their keeper we might have got north of 60m for him.

Itís not really about good enough. Itís about if we can get more for the money than the player we are selling brings

Also heís currently not good enough for any good side. Heís a liability. Half the league have comfortably better keepers. If Chelsea had signed him they would have been very disappointed

Regardless though selling good players can still be the shrewd move.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on March 12, 2019, 04:27:15 AM
He's highly rated by someone in the club; didn't he get an improved contact recently.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:30:11 AM
Looking at what Chelsea paid for their keeper we might have got north of 60m for him.

Itís not really about good enough. Itís about if we can get more for the money than the player we are selling brings

Also heís currently not good enough for any good side. Heís a liability. Half the league have comfortably better keepers. If Chelsea had signed him they would have been very disappointed

Regardless though selling good players can still be the shrewd move.

The difference between our opinions is that I rate him, highly.

I don't think you're a good judge of young players. I don't think you accept limitations associated with development, I don't think you have patience and I don't think you grasp the idea developing a player.

All of your views about players revolve around how you expect them to be finished articles.

The same goes for management, tactics and coaching.

We're never going to agree on this.

Selling good players can sometimes be shrewd, but the argument to sell Pickford and replace with someone "cheap who can do the same job" is ludicrous, because that cheap option is cheap for a reason. They're either getting to the end of their career or have limitations. Give me a player who will develop to the top any day over those options.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:31:52 AM
He's highly rated by someone in the club; didn't he get an improved contact recently.

He's rated by a hell of a lot of people. He's England's number one, and no matter how cynical you are that counts for a hell of a lot.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 12, 2019, 04:34:30 AM
He's rated by a hell of a lot of people. He's England's number one, and no matter how cynical you are that counts for a hell of a lot.
Hes also not rated by a lot so I'd say it's a mixed opinion with the majority outside of Everton believing he is a liability these days.

Hes Englands number 1 by default really due to the lack of other viable options.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:35:02 AM
The only valid argument made here is by @TheRam (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1602) , get decent back up in who will not only push Pickford but help him develop. Someone like Foster. It's easier said than done because someone good enough to push him is unlikely to settle for a number 2 spot. Bit of a catch 22 when you have a top keeper and you'r a mid table side.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on March 12, 2019, 04:36:58 AM
Top keepers can self motivate.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:38:10 AM
Hes also not rated by a lot so I'd say it's a mixed opinion with the majority outside of Everton believing he is a liability these days.

Hes Englands number 1 by default really due to the lack of other viable options.

"Majority' ok.

Unless you can back up your outlandish claims I'll continue to assume you're talking crap.

We've just read how most of the league has better 'keepers. I can think of a few English ones in there. What a lazy fucking point "number one by default", Jesus Christ.

Jordan Pickford, the only English 'keeper in the world. If you were talking about Gibraltar you might have an iota of a point.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:39:58 AM
Top keepers can self motivate.

Hence the caveat of "helping him develop".

Also, competition drives performance. We all know that's a fact in football.

Motivation isn't the issue, it's competition driving performance. They aren't the same thing.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on March 12, 2019, 04:44:19 AM
Hence the caveat of "helping him develop".

Also, competition drives performance. We all know that's a fact in football.

Motivation isn't the issue, it's competition driving performance. They aren't the same thing.

I doubt having Pickford looking over his shoulder will do anything to calm him down.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 12, 2019, 04:44:51 AM
The only valid argument made here is by @TheRam (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1602) , get decent back up in who will not only push Pickford but help him develop. Someone like Foster. It's easier said than done because someone good enough to push him is unlikely to settle for a number 2 spot. Bit of a catch 22 when you have a top keeper and you'r a mid table side.

Just someone who you can bring in safe in the knowledge theyíre not a complete biff.

Weíve never had that have we?

Always got our back up keepers on the cheap just to make the numbers up.

Hopefully this is another thing Brands can change.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:49:07 AM
Just someone who you can bring in safe in the knowledge theyíre not a complete biff.

Weíve never had that have we?

Always got our back up keepers on the cheap just to make the numbers up.

Hopefully this is another thing Brands can change.

Yea, I mean like I say, it can't be easy to attract the type of player we're calling for here. I get why we've never really had one.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:50:36 AM
I doubt having Pickford looking over his shoulder will do anything to calm him down.

Well you can doubt as much as you like, point is we don't know because that person doesn't exist at the moment.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 12, 2019, 04:55:59 AM
"Majority' ok.

Unless you can back up your outlandish claims I'll continue to assume you're talking crap.

We've just read how most of the league has better 'keepers. I can think of a few English ones in there. What a lazy fucking point "number one by default", Jesus Christ.

Jordan Pickford, the only English 'keeper in the world. If you were talking about Gibraltar you might have an iota of a point.
Fuck me you are aggressive ....maybe consider meditation or yoga ?

Ok you rate pickford....you are yet to back up why other than that hes Englands keeper atm despite having very little competition but we ll ignore that they.

With regards to the outlandish claims comment....I take it you've been in hibernation since Saturday? Pickfords stock has not risen by any stretch of the imagination with his antics over the weekend. But what do ex prem footballers and experienced football writers know ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 12, 2019, 04:59:39 AM
Fuck me you are aggressive ....maybe consider meditation or yoga ?

Ok you rate pickford....you are yet to back up why other than that hes Englands keeper atm despite having very little competition but we ll ignore that they.

With regards to the outlandish claims comment....I take it you've been in hibernation since Saturday? Pickfords stock has not risen by any stretch of the imagination with his antics over the weekend. But what do ex prem footballers and experienced football writers know ?

The majority of ex footballers in the media are so out of touch with the modern game so I wouldnít listen to them.

Iíd assume that when it comes to the writers, the respectable ones like Rory Smith would give a balanced, nuanced view on Pickford that wouldnít be all criticism and hyperbole.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on March 12, 2019, 05:01:54 AM
The majority of ex footballers in the media are so out of touch with the modern game so I wouldn’t listen to them.

I’d assume that when it comes to the writers, the respectable ones like Rory Smith would give a balanced, nuanced view on Pickford that wouldn’t be all criticism and hyperbole.

He's a kopite though.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 12, 2019, 05:05:21 AM
He's a kopite though.

Genuinely dissapointed to find that out.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 05:06:29 AM
Fuck me you are aggressive ....maybe consider meditation or yoga ?

Ok you rate pickford....you are yet to back up why other than that hes Englands keeper atm despite having very little competition but we ll ignore that they.

With regards to the outlandish claims comment....I take it you've been in hibernation since Saturday? Pickfords stock has not risen by any stretch of the imagination with his antics over the weekend. But what do ex prem footballers and experienced football writers know ?

Haha, nothing aggressive about my reply. I just think you're chatting shit in all honesty.

I don't really think I need to back up my point when he is the country's number one and is widely rated as having heaps of potential. No one is suggesting he's the finished article. No one is suggesting he didn't have a mare on Saturday. No one is suggesting he isn't erratic and no one is denying he's having a bang average season.

What is being denied is that he should be cashed in on, because his detractors (including you) are unable or unwilling to accept that he's not the finished article. He turned 25 at the weekend and no matter how you dress it up in terms of games played that's young for a 'keeper.

And could you point to where I claimed his stock had risen since the weekend?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on March 12, 2019, 06:00:46 AM


Ok you rate pickford....you are yet to back up why other than that hes Englands keeper atm despite having very little competition but we ll ignore that they.


You've said this a few times, and it's complete and utter bollocks.
Englands depth of good keepers is probably better than it's ever been, certainly in my lifetime anyway. Loads have been capped at senior level or under 21s level and loads considered good PL keepers or good up and coming Keepers.
There's plenty of competition.

Pickford, Hart, Butland, Pope, Heaton, Foster, Forster, McCarthy, Bettinelli, Gunn just to name a few.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 06:03:51 AM
Pickford, Hart, Butland, Pope, Heaton, Foster, Forster, McCarthy, Bettinelli, Gunn just to name a few.

Ah but they're all shit in this world of hyperbole, remember.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 12, 2019, 11:13:42 AM
The difference between our opinions is that I rate him, highly.

I don't think you're a good judge of young players. I don't think you accept limitations associated with development, I don't think you have patience and I don't think you grasp the idea developing a player.

All of your views about players revolve around how you expect them to be finished articles.

The same goes for management, tactics and coaching.

We're never going to agree on this.

Selling good players can sometimes be shrewd, but the argument to sell Pickford and replace with someone "cheap who can do the same job" is ludicrous, because that cheap option is cheap for a reason. They're either getting to the end of their career or have limitations. Give me a player who will develop to the top any day over those options.


We possibly could have gotten something close to a world record fee for him last summer after the World Cup.
Why would we ever want to take all the risks in terms of developing a player if someoneís offering to pay the finished article price upfront

Thereís a very reasonable chance that heíll never be more valuable than he was then
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on March 12, 2019, 11:15:52 AM

We possibly could have gotten something close to a world record fee for him last summer after the World Cup.
Why would we ever want to take all the risks in terms of developing a player if someoneís offering to pay the finished article price upfront

Thereís a very reasonable chance that heíll never be more valuable than he was then

But there is a chance he will be....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on March 12, 2019, 11:33:42 AM
Ideally Pickford should be dropped for losing his head the way he did on Saturday but to do so would be counter productive as we donít have a good enough understudy - something we need to address in the summer.

That said, if we want to be building a team for the future I think Pickford is the least of our problems. He has his faults and hasnít had the best season but I think heíll go on to become a great keeper for us.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 12, 2019, 12:43:04 PM

We possibly could have gotten something close to a world record fee for him last summer after the World Cup.
Why would we ever want to take all the risks in terms of developing a player if someoneís offering to pay the finished article price upfront

Thereís a very reasonable chance that heíll never be more valuable than he was then

Youíve spent the last few pages bemoaning not selling a player we donít even know there was a bid for.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 12, 2019, 01:37:07 PM
You've spent the last few pages bemoaning not selling a player we don't even know there was a bid for.
Remember when people said Barkley was shit but shouldn't be sold for less than £50m
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on March 12, 2019, 01:55:01 PM
Youíve spent the last few pages bemoaning not selling a player we donít even know there was a bid for.

Life was much better when the team was playing well, and KNT disappeared mysteriously from the forum. We're back to the stage where he just posts endless misery on every thread, no matter what anyone says.

He loves it when there's problems at the club. He's like a pig in shit. I find it really odd.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on March 12, 2019, 02:13:11 PM

We possibly could have gotten something close to a world record fee for him last summer after the World Cup.
Why would we ever want to take all the risks in terms of developing a player if someoneís offering to pay the finished article price upfront

Thereís a very reasonable chance that heíll never be more valuable than he was then

Which clubs expressed an interest in buying him ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 12, 2019, 02:20:01 PM
Remember when people said Barkley was shit but shouldn't be sold for less than £50m

Same fella as well.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 12, 2019, 02:34:06 PM
You've said this a few times, and it's complete and utter bollocks.
Englands depth of good keepers is probably better than it's ever been, certainly in my lifetime anyway. Loads have been capped at senior level or under 21s level and loads considered good PL keepers or good up and coming Keepers.
There's plenty of competition.

Pickford, Hart, Butland, Pope, Heaton, Foster, Forster, McCarthy, Bettinelli, Gunn just to name a few.
ok let's work through the list

 butland - not the same after that injury although pre injury butland head and shoulders above Jordan,Pope- good potential but missed this season through injury, Heaton- potentially pushing pickford now although surely cant be considered a top gk as with the last 3 you mentioned.

So with the above in mind I reiterate he hasn't got much competition.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 12, 2019, 02:39:03 PM
The majority of ex footballers in the media are so out of touch with the modern game so I wouldnít listen to them.

Iíd assume that when it comes to the writers, the respectable ones like Rory Smith would give a balanced, nuanced view on Pickford that wouldnít be all criticism and hyperbole.
Possibly some but they will know more than us in the majority of cases and will have contact with coaches and current players also.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bigdunc9 on March 12, 2019, 03:07:13 PM
Pickford is young , just had a baby and playing against a team where he was getting stick all game and would imagine his hate towards them has all got the better off him.
Pickford is a great goalkeeper. He will mentally settle down, by next season i think we will be seeing a settled more consistent Jordan Pickford.

Sent from my Nokia 7 plus using NSNO Everton Forums mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88121)

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 12, 2019, 03:08:38 PM
Pickford is young , just had a baby and playing against a team where he was getting stick all game and would imagine his hate towards them has all got the better off him.
Pickford is a great goalkeeper. He will mentally settle down, by next season i think we will be seeing a settled more consistent Jordan Pickford.

Sent from my Nokia 7 plus using NSNO Everton Forums mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88121)
If hes staying I really hope you are right as cant be arsed with him flapping around another year.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 03:11:18 PM

We possibly could have gotten something close to a world record fee for him last summer after the World Cup.
Why would we ever want to take all the risks in terms of developing a player if someoneís offering to pay the finished article price upfront

Thereís a very reasonable chance that heíll never be more valuable than he was then

Yay, we could win the the 'most expensive player sale cup'. Ambition of a newt, you. No wonder you were/are so defensive of Allardyce.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 12, 2019, 04:23:26 PM
But there is a chance he will be....

Of course but risk vs reward he should have gone last summer. Heís probably worth half what we might have got 6 months ago
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 12, 2019, 04:24:21 PM
Yay, we could win the the 'most expensive player sale cup'. Ambition of a newt, you. No wonder you were/are so defensive of Allardyce.

Ambition? Heís been shite. We could have invested that money in a forward and a playmaker and been a better team for it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 12, 2019, 04:25:11 PM
Which clubs expressed an interest in buying him ?

Chelsea enquired apparently before spending 80m on someone else.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 12, 2019, 04:26:23 PM
Life was much better when the team was playing well, and KNT disappeared mysteriously from the forum. We're back to the stage where he just posts endless misery on every thread, no matter what anyone says.

He loves it when there's problems at the club. He's like a pig in shit. I find it really odd.

Thereís always fucking problems at the club. When were we playing well? The last time was Martinezís first season and I was here. Or do you mean the mid 80s? I didnít have the internet then
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on March 12, 2019, 04:31:04 PM
Seems like he has ADHD this kid.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 04:40:19 PM
Ambition? Heís been shite. We could have invested that money in a forward and a playmaker and been a better team for it.

But he hasn't. More bullshit hyperbole. There's no point even engaging with you about any of our players.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: The Blue 3/4 of Liverpool on March 12, 2019, 04:45:39 PM
Pickford hasn't been shite, but he has been overall average imo. He has been great in some games and woeful in others, he has a horrible habbit of not catching it when he could, which often leads to him palming it to an opposition striker - causing us to concede on about 8 occasions this year. If he cut out the silly mistakes and stuck to the basics, and didnt lose his head as often he would be a good keeper. At the moment he is inconsistent at best. I'd say stick with him, but by god, does he need some good coaching.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on March 12, 2019, 04:50:12 PM
Of course but risk vs reward he should have gone last summer. Heís probably worth half what we might have got 6 months ago

But we arent a club who can buy the best goalkeepers in the world? They wont come to us. So we have to take a risk and buy young players with a lot of scope to be the best.

Pickford hasnt had a rest, he was a hero in the world cup and probably coming down from that, he is very young (for a keeper) he is playing in an unsettled team/defence... should i go on?

We cant just give up on players for having a few poor games or making a few mistakes. He hasnt been awful all season either, that just over reacting.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 12, 2019, 04:50:31 PM
Chelsea enquired apparently before spending 80m on someone else.

They apparently enquired for him?

Hardly conclusive that there was a chance to sell him is it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 12, 2019, 04:57:40 PM
Feel this has been extensively covered now.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 12, 2019, 05:06:37 PM
Feel this has been extensively covered now.

Are you auditioning for the role of moderator?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on March 12, 2019, 05:09:49 PM
Ambition? Heís been shite. We could have invested that money in a forward and a playmaker and been a better team for it.

Last season's Player of the Season has had a rough go after a full World Cup summer.

Absolutely, he's found out and must be written off immediately.

Seriously, we have to stop being so reactionary and have some long-term vision.  Good players have bad seasons.  Player development doesn't always proceed in a straight-line basis.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on March 12, 2019, 10:02:04 PM
ADHD, Pickford?

Quite possibly





Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gary1878 on March 12, 2019, 10:46:27 PM
With a player like Jordan Pickford, it might take a couple of years for him to mature. Once he does, he will be world class without a doubt.

I think he has all the attributes you need, but hasn't quite refined the mental side of his game yet. His decision making needs working on, and As England number 1, he also needs to start leading by example and must develop a calmer head, especially away from home.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 13, 2019, 12:02:06 AM
They apparently enquired for him?

Hardly conclusive that there was a chance to sell him is it.

All Iím saying is if there was a bid after the World Cup we probably with hindsight should have sold him. Iím not enraged we didnít. Like you say I donít know if there was
The conversation started about being more shrewd in buying players. My only point was that you can also be shrewd in selling players even the 1s youíd like to keep
Pickford has been shite though. Heís nearer the bottom than the top in terms of keepers this season
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 13, 2019, 12:02:49 AM
Last season's Player of the Season has had a rough go after a full World Cup summer.

Absolutely, he's found out and must be written off immediately.

Seriously, we have to stop being so reactionary and have some long-term vision.  Good players have bad seasons.  Player development doesn't always proceed in a straight-line basis.

If you remember rightly I wasnít right impressed last season either (when am I ever)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 13, 2019, 12:05:37 AM
But we arent a club who can buy the best goalkeepers in the world? They wont come to us. So we have to take a risk and buy young players with a lot of scope to be the best.

Pickford hasnt had a rest, he was a hero in the world cup and probably coming down from that, he is very young (for a keeper) he is playing in an unsettled team/defence... should i go on?

We cant just give up on players for having a few poor games or making a few mistakes. He hasnt been awful all season either, that just over reacting.

If we get offered proven money for potential then it seems completely logical to let someone else take all the risk and move him on

Iím not saying we should have sold him for 25m last season. Iím saying if we could have got 60 or 70 million for him it would have been a fantastic deal.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 13, 2019, 12:21:56 AM
If we get offered proven money for potential then it seems completely logical to let someone else take all the risk and move him on

Iím not saying we should have sold him for 25m last season. Iím saying if we could have got 60 or 70 million for him it would have been a fantastic deal.
60 or 70? Surely there's not many on here would turn that down if it was offered.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on March 13, 2019, 12:52:00 AM
Verdict?

Read post by Gary1878

JP - A Goalkeeping Gazza

Extensively covered

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on March 13, 2019, 01:43:04 AM
But we arent a club who can buy the best goalkeepers in the world? They wont come to us. So we have to take a risk and buy young players with a lot of scope to be the best.

Pickford hasnt had a rest, he was a hero in the world cup and probably coming down from that, he is very young (for a keeper) he is playing in an unsettled team/defence... should i go on?

We cant just give up on players for having a few poor games or making a few mistakes. He hasnt been awful all season either, that just over reacting.

I think we should stick with him, help him to grow and develop etc. My issue with him is that itís not that he is playing in front of a shaky defence, itís that he makes the defence shakey and can upset the equilibrium of the side after we make an encouraging start in games. Tottenham at Goodison, Anfield, the Newcastle game as a prime example of his head going which was entirely preventable and completely self serving. Yes, we should stick with him but it seems like he plays for himself and it wouldnít be beyond the realms of possibility for some to suggest he thinks he is above us now following his World Cup exploits. He just needs to be dropped but knows he wonít be, which just furthers the issue.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: chang on March 13, 2019, 05:03:56 AM
Apologies if already posted, interesting read on the BBC Sports website discussing Jordan Pickford.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47532235
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 13, 2019, 05:48:04 AM
On one of the footy pods they were just like 'is he even any good?'

Mad how quickly your stock can fall.

Edit: Oh god

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11648752/which-premier-league-goalkeeper-should-claim-england-no-1-jersey?fbclid=IwAR3QQGazJnGe9hGcF9E8UVo8Utrn43bZQArkPjotq89Wa68tYw9PHGSQ8k8
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on March 13, 2019, 06:54:50 AM
On one of the footy pods they were just like 'is he even any good?'

Mad how quickly your stock can fall.

Edit: Oh god

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11648752/which-premier-league-goalkeeper-should-claim-england-no-1-jersey?fbclid=IwAR3QQGazJnGe9hGcF9E8UVo8Utrn43bZQArkPjotq89Wa68tYw9PHGSQ8k8

Bloody hell.

I thought he was better than that.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on March 13, 2019, 01:20:33 PM
His manager should pull him to one side and outline those stats to him. Might stop the cocky strut and teach him to focus on his game a little more.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on March 13, 2019, 01:47:03 PM
He's immature, it will improve but he's a classic example of a young player whose talent far outweighs his mental abilities. 

He's young for a keeper and everything will improve over time, but he absolutely needs to mature quickly, he's the number 1 keeper at a big club, and also for his country.  If he doesn't mature soon it'll cost him dearly.

Foster for me needs to be England's number one based on this season as he's been nothing short of outstanding, but it's unlikely he'll return and wouldn't want to be a stop gap until Pickford gets the message.

I actually think he's better suited to international football at the moment though as the kind of thing that sets him off isnt there on that stage, and he seems to have more respect for the situation of playing for your country / less cocky and complacent.

Personally (and I've always been his biggest advocate) I'd drop him for a few games, he needs a rocket up his arse, sometimes a string firm approach is just what a character like Pickford needs, but I'm not convinced Silva is that type of manager
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: eyesalwaysblue on March 13, 2019, 02:35:03 PM
He just got carried away toolin the Geordies, if a 3/2 loss dosen't knock that out of him i'd be surprised.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 13, 2019, 03:29:00 PM
On one of the footy pods they were just like 'is he even any good?'

Mad how quickly your stock can fall.

Edit: Oh god

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11648752/which-premier-league-goalkeeper-should-claim-england-no-1-jersey?fbclid=IwAR3QQGazJnGe9hGcF9E8UVo8Utrn43bZQArkPjotq89Wa68tYw9PHGSQ8k8
The stats all show what we ve seen this year....hes been crap. Honestly cant see why people believe hes been a top keeper for us cause he hasn't.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Cozzie on March 13, 2019, 03:33:18 PM
Damning stats them.

Didnt realize he was that bad.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 13, 2019, 03:49:48 PM
But he's not far off De Gea, Allison, Oblak and Ter Stegen apparently...

lolol
Title: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on March 13, 2019, 03:57:18 PM
He's been rightly called out for having a shit game, but let's not start a witch-hunt, hey lads?

Jordon Pickford doesn't even come into the top 50 issues I have with this squad/club at the moment.

He's sound.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on March 13, 2019, 04:08:56 PM

He's sound.


Well he's clearly not as he's costing points.

Granted he's not the biggest problem but that doesn't mean he should get a free pass on criticism.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on March 13, 2019, 04:10:58 PM
He's been rightly called out for having a shit game, but let's not start a witch-hunt, hey lads?

Jordon Pickford doesn't even come into the top 50 issues I have with this squad/club at the moment.

He's sound.


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I think you're massively wrong. We concede the most goals of any team from crosses, why is that? Part of it is zonal, part of it are the defenders but a big part of it is how hes always routed to his line and doesnt command anything. He is so weak in terms of his ability to claim or control the area that causes us massive issues. People have said before that it might be tactics, but I cant see it, why would any manager not want a keeper to come and claim the ball? The only reasonable explanation would be that he cant do it, its similar to when we signed Koldrup and found out he cant head the ball, weve now signed a goalkeeper that cant catch!
Im not saying its the same extreme, but to say hes not part of the issue is massively wrong imo
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 13, 2019, 04:22:39 PM
I think you're massively wrong. We concede the most goals of any team from crosses, why is that? Part of it is zonal, part of it are the defenders but a big part of it is how hes always routed to his line and doesnt command anything. He is so weak in terms of his ability to claim or control the area that causes us massive issues. People have said before that it might be tactics, but I cant see it, why would any manager not want a keeper to come and claim the ball? The only reasonable explanation would be that he cant do it, its similar to when we signed Koldrup and found out he cant head the ball, weve now signed a goalkeeper that cant catch!
Im not saying its the same extreme, but to say hes not part of the issue is massively wrong imo
The thing is these stats are of no surprise for the majority and i think sometimes peoples perceptions are skewed by blue tinted glasses.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on March 13, 2019, 04:28:19 PM
The thing is these stats are of no surprise for the majority and i think sometimes peoples perceptions are skewed by blue tinted glasses.


100%, if Pickford was at another team like West Ham with these stats and we had Foster, Butland, Pope, Heaton or McCarthy there would be massive amounts of anger on her as to why he keeps getting picked ahead of ours! Its really hard to defend him and his major plus point of his distribution is also terrible lately
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on March 13, 2019, 06:07:05 PM
What these stats DONT show is the amount of times he's saved us....

easy to pick on the negatives to produce an argument...
I've seen the shot stopping stat that's states he's only 2.9% behind the leading shot stopper de geaÖplaying less games....who wouldn't want a goalie of that calibre ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on March 13, 2019, 07:10:12 PM
What these stats DONT show is the amount of times he's saved us....

easy to pick on the negatives to produce an argument...
I've seen the shot stopping stat that's states he's only 2.9% behind the leading shot stopper de geaÖplaying less games....who wouldn't want a goalie of that calibre ?

What the previous skysports link shows you is you're wrong, his stats arent good and its plain to see. Read that article first as I was surprised how poor he is playing

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11648752/which-premier-league-goalkeeper-should-claim-england-no-1-jersey?fbclid=IwAR3QQGazJnGe9hGcF9E8UVo8Utrn43bZQArkPjotq89Wa68tYw9PHGSQ8k8
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on March 13, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
Blame Silva and his GK coach!

Pickford was great last season
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on March 13, 2019, 07:29:02 PM
Letís not go overboard lads. He needs some development and a bit of guidance but itís not the big issue itís being made out to be.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on March 13, 2019, 07:33:01 PM
it's a good read that.. but look at the margins and you'll see as a percentage there's not much of a difference..the one i'd personally always go for is the saves one... if you look at the top ranked English keeper it's a swing of 1.9% what it doesn't show is the variables...however, it also states that hes made the most saves out of all them

however, facts are facts and stats are stats...the interesting point for me is in the saves and goals conceded paragraph which tells me he's made the most saves, conceded the most goals...is this a reflection of him or what's in front of him?

also you if you look at the style of play/formations/team set ups...an open attacking style of play (ours?) against a tight cautious style of play burnley/early season Newcastle and obviously their goalie will let less in and have to make less saves...

I agree with most peoples point of view he has an attitude..but quite honestly I really like that in him ala big nev...and he didn't turn out too bad did he.....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on March 13, 2019, 07:42:56 PM
He's a good keeper (and he's won us plenty of points, particularly last season) but he's not had a good season. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

He needs to learn from his technical mistakes and cut the getting-involved-with-the-crowd bollocks. Or if he is going to do it, only do it after you have justified doing it, by playing well and winning.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on March 13, 2019, 07:54:41 PM
He's a good keeper (and he's won us plenty of points, particularly last season) but he's not had a good season. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

He needs to learn from his technical mistakes and cut the getting-involved-with-the-crowd bollocks. .

couldn't agree more....in one of the columns posted on here it states his "attitude" comes from the fact he has the capability to actually learn from his mistakes...which is a big plus in my book...Ölets just hope it's correct....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on March 13, 2019, 07:59:20 PM
couldn't agree more....in one of the columns posted on here it states his "attitude" comes from the fact he has the capability to actually learn from his mistakes...which is a big plus in my book...Ölets just hope it's correct....

Exactly. There should be no shame in saying that players need to improve and develop. I think people focus too much on whether someone is the 'finished article'. There's very few people in that bracket, but the overwhelming majority of players should be constantly self-analysing and looking to work on weaknesses. Pickford's got a lot of gifts, and has the ability to be superb, but he needs to hone his skills and minimise his weaknesses.

Also, you'd like to think the goalkeeping coach is doing certain drills (pushing the ball out of danger, mental exercises to stay focused in the game) with him over and over again.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on March 13, 2019, 08:00:49 PM
The stats all show what we ve seen this year....hes been crap. Honestly cant see why people believe hes been a top keeper for us cause he hasn't.

He's not a top keeper, he's 24 with plenty of maturing and developing to do.  He has the potential to be a top TOP keeper but he's a few years off that (if he even achieves his potential).

The issue is people expect him to be epic because he cost a bomb and is England's first choice...he's still young, still learning and this is only his 3rd year as a first team regular.

He's not been good enough, proby needs to be dropped for a bit, but I don't think many feel or are saying he's a top keeper yet.  It's potential that we've invested in, and he'll oy realise that potential if he plays and learns from his mistakes (and occasionally gets dropped for shit like the Newcastle match)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 13, 2019, 10:45:32 PM
In the England squad again
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on March 13, 2019, 11:09:14 PM
Number One
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 13, 2019, 11:33:19 PM
Bloody hell.

I thought he was better than that.

Turns out I was right. He's been shite this season. Really don't know why we can't acknowledge it now and again about our favourites (not directed at you)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 13, 2019, 11:35:15 PM
He's been rightly called out for having a shit game, but let's not start a witch-hunt, hey lads?

Jordon Pickford doesn't even come into the top 50 issues I have with this squad/club at the moment.

He's sound.


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He's near the bottom for season long stats. He's not just had a shit game he's had a shit season
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: gizzblue on March 13, 2019, 11:39:17 PM
He's near the bottom for season long stats. He's not just had a shit game he's had a shit season

So have the alleged 'defence' in front of him ....so he's not alone in reality ....our lack of defence or ideas from set pieces will have added quite a few to his tally .
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: eyesalwaysblue on March 14, 2019, 01:15:28 AM
Least  of our worries
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 14, 2019, 01:47:47 AM
Least  of our worries

Worrying enough for three posters to copy and paste the same replies for a dozen pages.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 14, 2019, 01:49:07 AM
Worrying enough for three posters to copy and paste the same replies for a dozen pages.
Out of interest what did you make of the stats ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 14, 2019, 01:52:19 AM
Out of interest what did you make of the stats ?

Not read them. Didnít read the ones the other day either.

What did you make of them? Have they managed to amp up your stress levels more than usual?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 14, 2019, 01:55:02 AM
Not read them. Didnít read the ones the other day either.

What did you make of them? Have they managed to amp up your stress levels more than usual?
No they managed to chill me out a bit as pretty much showed what I've been saying for months....

I could be wrong andcapologies if so, but were you not the one who was staying he was on track and just behind the worlds best keepers?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 14, 2019, 01:58:34 AM
So have the alleged 'defence' in front of him ....so he's not alone in reality ....our lack of defence or ideas from set pieces will have added quite a few to his tally .

Heís poor at coming for the crosses too. They are all a problem currently
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 14, 2019, 02:13:21 AM
No they managed to chill me out a bit as pretty much showed what I've been saying for months....

I could be wrong andcapologies if so, but were you not the one who was staying he was on track and just behind the worlds best keepers?

Is that a question? Iím pretty sure itís not an actual question, but yeah I did. It was based on mistakes that led to goals, which turned out to be dud info to begin with. Fun stuff looking foolish online.

Either way, accurate stats, dud stats, I stand by my views that he is a good player and capable of being a very good player.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 14, 2019, 02:30:45 AM
Is that a question? Iím pretty sure itís not an actual question, but yeah I did. It was based on mistakes that led to goals, which turned out to be dud info to begin with. Fun stuff looking foolish online.

Either way, accurate stats, dud stats, I stand by my views that he is a good player and capable of being a very good player.
Yeah it was a question as I thought it was you but CBA to look back on the posts tbh.

Dont kick yourself for the bad call its easily done and we all make mistakes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 14, 2019, 03:06:54 AM
Some serious internet points being claimed here.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on March 14, 2019, 03:08:46 AM
Lots of wanting back patting going on in here today
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 14, 2019, 03:11:32 AM
Lots of wanting back patting going on in here today
Not many saying that they could have potentially been wrong though
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on March 14, 2019, 03:22:49 AM
The usual flow of things....

1. Poster raises concern ref particular player or manager
2. Poster is attacked with pitchforks and branded clueless, reactionary, knee jerk and worse
3. Forum positives scrabble for excuses for any poor form
4. Poor form continues and section of forum digs further for excuses
5. Stats come out proving the initial point/it comes to a point where even a barrister could not defend the issue
6. Forum defenders tend to pipe down and do not hold hands up to issue and perhaps being unreasonable in their responses to the initial poster
7. Section of forum members attack original poster and claim back patting/revelling in Evertons poor forum (completely forgetting about point 2).
8. Repeat above process with another topic.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on March 14, 2019, 03:35:25 AM
The usual flow of things....

1. Poster raises concern ref particular player or manager
2. Poster is attacked with pitchforks and branded clueless, reactionary, knee jerk and worse
3. Forum positives scrabble for excuses for any poor form
4. Poor form continues and section of forum digs further for excuses
5. Stats come out proving the initial point/it comes to a point where even a barrister could not defend the issue
6. Forum defenders tend to pipe down and do not hold hands up to issue and perhaps being unreasonable in their responses to the initial poster
7. Section of forum members attack original poster and claim back patting/revelling in Evertons poor forum (completely forgetting about point 2).
8. Repeat above process with another topic.
Post of the year this
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on March 14, 2019, 03:35:56 AM
The usual flow of things....

1. Poster raises concern ref particular player or manager
2. Poster is attacked with pitchforks and branded clueless, reactionary, knee jerk and worse
3. Forum positives scrabble for excuses for any poor form
4. Poor form continues and section of forum digs further for excuses
5. Stats come out proving the initial point/it comes to a point where even a barrister could not defend the issue
6. Forum defenders tend to pipe down and do not hold hands up to issue and perhaps being unreasonable in their responses to the initial poster
7. Section of forum members attack original poster and claim back patting/revelling in Evertons poor forum (completely forgetting about point 2).
8. Repeat above process with another topic.

You okay hun?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 14, 2019, 03:43:32 AM
Stress head.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 14, 2019, 03:48:00 AM
Lads, I donít need you two droning on to know thereís a problem with Pickford.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Silas on March 14, 2019, 03:52:07 AM
Pickfords a very good player in fucking awful form since the derby. That's about the size of it. More or less than that is exaggeration from a positive or negative side.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on March 14, 2019, 04:19:42 AM
Pickfords a very good player in fucking awful form since the derby. That's about the size of it. More or less than that is exaggeration from a positive or negative side.
There is absolutely no place in here for rational thinking
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bluestevie on March 14, 2019, 06:23:58 AM
The usual flow of things....

1. Poster raises concern ref particular player or manager
2. Poster is attacked with pitchforks and branded clueless, reactionary, knee jerk and worse
3. Forum positives scrabble for excuses for any poor form
4. Poor form continues and section of forum digs further for excuses
5. Stats come out proving the initial point/it comes to a point where even a barrister could not defend the issue
6. Forum defenders tend to pipe down and do not hold hands up to issue and perhaps being unreasonable in their responses to the initial poster
7. Section of forum members attack original poster and claim back patting/revelling in Evertons poor forum (completely forgetting about point 2).
8. Repeat above process with another topic.

Waah Waah fucking Waahh
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: gizzblue on March 14, 2019, 06:56:02 AM
The usual flow of things....

1. Poster raises concern ref particular player or manager
2. Poster is attacked with pitchforks and branded clueless, reactionary, knee jerk and worse
3. Forum positives scrabble for excuses for any poor form
4. Poor form continues and section of forum digs further for excuses
5. Stats come out proving the initial point/it comes to a point where even a barrister could not defuend the issue
6. Forum defenders tend to pipe down and do not hold hands up to issue and perhaps being unreasonable in their responses to the initial poster
7. Section of forum members attack original poster and claim back patting/revelling in Evertons poor forum (completely forgetting about point 2).
8. Repeat above process with another topic.


Well done Sherlock Holmes ....you've just described every footy/most other forums on the net .. lolol 

It's called opinion based discussion. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on March 14, 2019, 06:44:18 PM

Well done Sherlock Holmes ....you've just described every footy/most other forums on the net .. lolol 

It's called opinion based discussion. :thumbsup:

Itís a pretty succint guide, though, tbf
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Free Agent on March 14, 2019, 06:52:03 PM
Itís a pretty succint guide, though, tbf

I beg to differ you clueless twat.  :Sick:
Fume fume  : :headbang:  :headbang:

 :snigger:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on March 14, 2019, 06:59:50 PM
I beg to differ you clueless twat.  :Sick:
Fume fume  : :headbang:  :headbang:

 :snigger:

Cunt.

See, thatís pretty succint 🤗
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: gizzblue on March 14, 2019, 07:11:36 PM
Itís a pretty succint guide, though, tbf

Yeah it's a goodn for sure . lolol
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on March 14, 2019, 07:58:36 PM
1. Poster raises concern ref particular player or manager
2. Poster is attacked with pitchforks and branded clueless, reactionary, knee jerk and worse
3. Forum positives scrabble for excuses for any poor form
4. Poor form continues and section of forum digs further for excuses
5. Stats come out proving the initial point/it comes to a point where even a barrister could not defend the issue
6. Forum defenders tend to pipe down and do not hold hands up to issue and perhaps being unreasonable in their responses to the initial poster
7. Section of forum members attack original poster and claim back patting/revelling in Evertons poor forum (completely forgetting about point 2).
7a. Some posters post drivel and then argue with other posters who don't agree with their drivel
7b. Some posters then re post drivel to hammer home their original drivel
7c, not satisfied with reposting drivel some posters trawl through stats leagues and post them instead to suit their argument
8. Repeat above process with another topic.
9. Posters go and on and on and on about same topic..
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on March 14, 2019, 08:18:47 PM
I think we're now beyond comprehensive and somewhere in meta territory.

Also 7c better not be me. Our creativity stats are a genuine worry and should be discussed at length after every loss.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 14, 2019, 08:44:04 PM
Hahah whatís going on?

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on March 16, 2019, 05:52:30 PM
Well this thread has turned into a shit show hasn't it.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 16, 2019, 06:44:54 PM
10. @Bally (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=19) calls the thread a shit show
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on March 16, 2019, 07:34:02 PM
He tweeted yesterday that Xbox or someone had sent him a free console. It was red, with red accessories. So Everton twitter went mad and he took the image down.... ::)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on March 16, 2019, 07:37:49 PM
He tweeted yesterday that Xbox or someone had sent him a free console. It was red, with red accessories. So Everton twitter went mad and he took the image down.... ::)

Loads of fans kicked off as well, the fucking idiots
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 16, 2019, 11:09:27 PM
Classic bloos.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 16, 2019, 11:12:06 PM
Haha
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 16, 2019, 11:16:09 PM
Remember when Koeman got cyber-bullied for celebrating Xmas. Bloos mate.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on March 16, 2019, 11:26:08 PM
My favourite is when people ďtweetedĒ Moshiriís niece to demand transfers.

The problem is that the players pander to it. They shouldnít back down to this nonsense
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on March 16, 2019, 11:35:20 PM
My favourite is when people ďtweetedĒ Moshiriís niece to demand transfers.

The problem is that the players pander to it. They shouldnít back down to this nonsense

Spot on. Itís just a fucking free Xbox like.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheTone on March 16, 2019, 11:45:22 PM
Remember when Koeman got cyber-bullied for celebrating Xmas. Bloos mate.

with the red xmas tree, sake
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on March 17, 2019, 01:34:46 AM
https://twitter.com/TheGwladysSt/status/1106687311826337793
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on March 17, 2019, 04:45:59 AM
10. @Bally (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=19) calls the thread a shit show
11. Bally locks thread because it's a fucking shit show

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 18, 2019, 05:49:55 AM
Played really well agains Chelsea. Wasn't erratic and bar being wrong footed for one pass back his kicking was under control. Two very good saves, one in each half. The one from Higuain in the second half was particularly strong.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on March 18, 2019, 05:57:30 AM
Probably helps when you've not got a bunch of hairy arsed geordies winding you up. He needs to deal with that in the future and play the game as normal not as a Sunderland fan.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: gizzblue on March 18, 2019, 03:03:43 PM
That's the kind of performance he needs to keep turning in .
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: dunkster on March 18, 2019, 03:07:37 PM
Lets hope he came back down to earth with an almighty bump from the shit he pulled against newcastle. If he wants a future as england number 1 he needs to be playing like he did yesterday.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on March 18, 2019, 03:23:36 PM
He'll have noticed what was being written and said about him after the Newcastle game. He might be a bit stupid but he'll have taken it on board. Yesterday he looked like a keeper should be; solid, dependable and making saves when needed.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on March 18, 2019, 03:45:05 PM
I don't even think he is stupid. He's just a normal, young working class lad, who lets his enthusiasm spill over into lack of concentration at times.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on March 18, 2019, 03:58:04 PM
He only booted it out of play once, massive improvement right there
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on March 18, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
I don't even think he is stupid. He's just a normal, young working class lad, who lets his enthusiasm spill over into lack of concentration at times.

Anyone who still wants to 'get the rave on' at 25 is in my opinion a little behind your average lad in terms of maturity.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on March 18, 2019, 04:50:01 PM
Anyone who still wants to 'get the rave on' at 25 is in my opinion a little behind your average lad in terms of maturity.

Haha.

Nothing wrong with it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluenose 91 on March 18, 2019, 05:17:16 PM
I was still fully getting the rave on when I was 25.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on March 18, 2019, 05:18:05 PM
Same. 25 is young, and is prime raving age.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on March 18, 2019, 05:51:01 PM
I'm clearly out of touch.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 18, 2019, 06:34:06 PM
just for a bit of comparisons between goalkeepers at the same age as Pickford now, well, Everton ones.

Neville Southall was on loan at Bury when he was 25.  He was already Wales' first choice keeper then, pretty much.

at 25 Nigel Martyn played in the Zenith Data Systems Cup final against Everton, having already played in the FA Cup Final the year before.  Wasn't until he was 30 though that he moved to Leeds and played in Europe.  He was 26 when he got his first England cap, and spent most of his career as backup to David Seaman.

Tim Howard signed for Man Utd when he was 24, and was pretty much dropped by the time he was 25.  It wasn't until he was 30 that he was the USA's first choice keeper.

Jordan Pickford played in a World Cup semi final at the age of 24 and is England's number one despite there being strong opposition, all much more experienced than he is (Tom Heaton hasn't played as many Premier League games mind)

I said it last week, and yesterday bore witness to it, but we need to put all our faith in him and let him have his off days at this stage of his career, and in this season, which means the grand sum of fuck all anyway.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 18, 2019, 06:34:56 PM
Anyone who still wants to 'get the rave on' at 25 is in my opinion a little behind your average lad in terms of maturity.

absolute nonsense

25 is the age where you are still young enough to do it, and finally able to actually afford to do it properly.

25 is a boss age.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheTone on March 18, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
absolute nonsense

25 is the age where you are still young enough to do it, and finally able to actually afford to do it properly.

25 is a boss age.

Shit age, 40 plus is where it's at
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 18, 2019, 06:45:49 PM
Shit age, 40 plus is where it's at

not tried it.  I'm 42 and would probably snap a vertebrae if I tried any of the moves I could pull on the dancefloor / stage in my 20's

Had a brief re-entry into the raving world in my early 30's which was pretty boss, but nothing compared to in my teens or 20's.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on March 18, 2019, 06:55:02 PM
just for a bit of comparisons between goalkeepers at the same age as Pickford now, well, Everton ones.

Neville Southall was on loan at Bury when he was 25.  He was already Wales' first choice keeper then, pretty much.

at 25 Nigel Martyn played in the Zenith Data Systems Cup final against Everton, having already played in the FA Cup Final the year before.  Wasn't until he was 30 though that he moved to Leeds and played in Europe.  He was 26 when he got his first England cap, and spent most of his career as backup to David Seaman.

Tim Howard signed for Man Utd when he was 24, and was pretty much dropped by the time he was 25.  It wasn't until he was 30 that he was the USA's first choice keeper.

Jordan Pickford played in a World Cup semi final at the age of 24 and is England's number one despite there being strong opposition, all much more experienced than he is (Tom Heaton hasn't played as many Premier League games mind)

I said it last week, and yesterday bore witness to it, but we need to put all our faith in him and let him have his off days at this stage of his career, and in this season, which means the grand sum of fuck all anyway.

Exactly this.  Everything Pickford has been through this year is valuable learning experience.  There is only downside to doing anything other than full faith and support.

I have a general rule for life that 95% of men don't have a fucking clue who they are or what they want out of life until age 30 (it's 25 for women).  Maturity level at 25 is almost always still a work in progress.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on March 18, 2019, 06:57:42 PM
I don't even think he is stupid. He's just a normal, young working class lad, who lets his enthusiasm spill over into lack of concentration at times.

Some of us need to remember more honestly what we were like at 25...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on March 18, 2019, 06:57:56 PM
Exactly this.  Everything Pickford has been through this year is valuable learning experience.  There is only downside to doing anything other than full faith and support.

I have a general rule for life that 95% of men don't have a fucking clue who they are or what they want out of life until age 30 (it's 25 for women).  Maturity level at 25 is almost always still a work in progress.

said yesterday at the match, if I was 25 and playing in goal for the away team at Anfield, no matter who it was, I was getting sent off.

pretty much everyone agreed they would be too.

it's just one of them, and we have to hope even more than Newcastle get relegated every season after this one.  the horrible twats.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheTone on March 18, 2019, 07:08:24 PM
not tried it.  I'm 42 and would probably snap a vertebrae if I tried any of the moves I could pull on the dancefloor / stage in my 20's

Had a brief re-entry into the raving world in my early 30's which was pretty boss, but nothing compared to in my teens or 20's.

Got side tracked there

I was really only referring to women the sexy sexy creatures
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueNoseMike on March 18, 2019, 07:09:23 PM
Anyone who still wants to 'get the rave on' at 25 is in my opinion a little behind your average lad in terms of maturity.

You're a laugh aren't you, fuck me
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gary1878 on March 18, 2019, 07:46:51 PM
To be honest, I couldn't care if the lad liked attending flat earth conferences for a hobby or if he likes to get his rave on. What matters is that his 90 minutes during the sticks is calm and that he performs to his ability.

The guy already has more experience than most keepers will have in their whole careers, and its now about building on that through the next 5 years to make him world class.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: gizzblue on March 18, 2019, 11:43:52 PM
Anyone who still wants to 'get the rave on' at 25 is in my opinion a little behind your average lad in terms of maturity.

I was still getting off my head four days week. ..and DJ ing up and down the country . :thumbsup:
Proper pipe and slippers now like  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on March 19, 2019, 01:21:41 PM
If you will pardon the "other sport" reference,

Nope.

:)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on March 19, 2019, 01:44:59 PM
To be honest, I couldn't care if the lad liked attending flat earth conferences for a hobby or if he likes to get his rave on. What matters is that his 90 minutes during the sticks is calm and that he performs to his ability.

The guy already has more experience than most keepers will have in their whole careers, and its now about building on that through the next 5 years to make him world class.



I don't even think he needs to be 'calm'. I think he needs to be his most confident self. It's his personality and if he's trying to fight his own nature as well as concentrate at the same time - I don't think he'll be properly focused.

If he's confident, even if he's a confident loon, he'll pass that on to the defenders. And even if he makes the odd mistake and people call it a 'clanger' (sorry, Major), it won't be the end of the world because however upset we are - he will feel a lot worse about it and work hard on it to try and make sure it doesn't happen again.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gary1878 on March 19, 2019, 11:39:45 PM
I don't even think he needs to be 'calm'. I think he needs to be his most confident self. It's his personality and if he's trying to fight his own nature as well as concentrate at the same time - I don't think he'll be properly focused.

If he's confident, even if he's a confident loon, he'll pass that on to the defenders. And even if he makes the odd mistake and people call it a 'clanger' (sorry, Major), it won't be the end of the world because however upset we are - he will feel a lot worse about it and work hard on it to try and make sure it doesn't happen again.

I agree, sort of :-)

It's clearly important to be confident in your ability in whatever you are doing. However, from an external perspective, I think a calmness in a goalkeeper is really important. If I am a defender, I don't want my goalkeeper flapping and making silly faces on the pitch or having banter with the crowd. I want him to have the face of a poker player, and to know that if I mess up, he's fully concentrated on the game and has my back.

The training pitch and outside of game time is where players can be all emotional and have a laugh. On the pitch though, it's down to business, and no player, including the GK should bring too much emotion with them, as it clouds judgement and that's when mistakes happen. As an example, a lot of red cards happen when a player feels unjustly treated and therefore seeks revenge with poorly judged tackles - if you can take the emotion out of these situations, then irrational decisions that you wouldn't otherwise make tend to disappear, and the team benefits.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on April 01, 2019, 11:44:09 PM
Vids doing the rounds of what looks like him scrapping on a night out and getting dragged away.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bluenuck on April 01, 2019, 11:46:54 PM
Vids doing the rounds of what looks like him scrapping on a night out and getting dragged away.

Gotta post that
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on April 01, 2019, 11:49:05 PM
Gotta post that

It's on a private Insta, if I see it land on twitter I will.

Tbh I can't personally see if it is him but he is dressed similarly to another vid of him getting a bit of stick off someone in the bar.

Sounds like Sunderland or somewhere in the NE.

Edit: https://twitter.com/fat_dan_graham/status/1112748747598057472?s=19
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on April 02, 2019, 12:02:02 AM
Be London at the weekend wonít it with Sunderland playing at Wembley.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on April 02, 2019, 12:06:13 AM
Newcastle fans are obsessed with him.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on April 02, 2019, 12:08:07 AM
Well known around the north east that he loves a night out and gets up to some naughty stuff.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on April 02, 2019, 12:52:21 AM
Everton to investigate alleged incident involving goalkeeper Jordan Pickford on Sunday night. Pickford involved in fracas while back in Sunderland.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on April 02, 2019, 12:58:00 AM
I see the sun going way over the top as usual and calling it a "vicious brawl". It's more like a minor dust up that you'll see pass over in a few seconds on most Saturday nights, he's hardly gone Ben Stokes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: macca12 on April 02, 2019, 01:23:25 AM
Thereís another video of some bad gimp shouting shitty insults towards as heís just chatting to his mates having a drink. They were really imaginative including ďsmall armsĒ and ďt-Rex armsĒ.

Imagine being on a night out and the highlight is shouting stuff at a footballer who used to play for your rivals whilst filming it and putting it on the internet. Bunch of meffs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueBeagle on April 02, 2019, 01:31:30 AM
The time for handbags on a night out is when you're a fucking teenager not when you're a father in your mid 20s and firmly in the public eye.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on April 02, 2019, 01:35:28 AM
Yeah it's defo him like
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 02, 2019, 01:39:05 AM
Footballer involved in what looks like a drunken brawl, not the first, won't be the last.

Move along, nothing to see here
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 02, 2019, 01:43:00 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47779510
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bluenuck on April 02, 2019, 01:46:25 AM
He gets wound up quite easily, doesn't he?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on April 02, 2019, 01:55:24 AM
He gets wound up quite easily, doesn't he?

As do most drunk 25 year olds to be fair.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on April 02, 2019, 01:55:59 AM
Iím not one for knee jerking but Iím starting to question whether or not we should keep him.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on April 02, 2019, 02:01:03 AM
Calm down lads, from what I've seen I've had bigger rumbles with my brother.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on April 02, 2019, 02:01:31 AM
See his mates doing exactly what mates should do there and dragging him away.

He's clearly been provoked and probably pushed physically as well, so fuck it, have a pop back lad. But then that's what your mates are there for.

He's a goalkeeper - a world class one at that - and he's got the temperament of one. This is fuck all really.

Modern football fans would have had our entire 1985 team hung drawn and quartered
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bluenuck on April 02, 2019, 02:02:35 AM
As do most drunk 25 year olds to be fair.

true.

But he's not like "most".

He's gotta get this sorted.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on April 02, 2019, 02:07:07 AM
true.

But he's not like "most".

He's gotta get this sorted.



Agree with that.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on April 02, 2019, 02:11:33 AM
I donít rightly care. These things happen. He does need to grow up though. Heís probably not overly safe in such an environment and we do pay him a lot of money to look after himself

The incident itself though. Something and nothing. Heís definitely not a full brick though
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 02, 2019, 02:13:38 AM
See his mates doing exactly what mates should do there and dragging him away.

He's clearly been provoked and probably pushed physically as well, so fuck it, have a pop back lad. But then that's what your mates are there for.

He's a goalkeeper - a world class one at that - and he's got the temperament of one. This is fuck all really.

Modern football fans would have had our entire 1985 team hung drawn and quartered

This!!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bigstickytoffee on April 02, 2019, 02:37:15 AM
If that is him swinging the punch then it doesn't look great for the club or himself. Irrelevant of provocation, it's a story the papers and oppo fans will love and use to  get more on his case  -which he'll find harder to deal with/control based on current form of mentality. 
He needs to calm down, keep himself out of the limelight and concentrate of his ability/game.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 02, 2019, 02:48:36 AM
Hard man here

https://twitter.com/lukebambridge/status/1112440793862754304
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: charlatan on April 02, 2019, 03:30:43 AM
Thereís another video of some bad gimp shouting shitty insults towards as heís just chatting to his mates having a drink. They were really imaginative including ďsmall armsĒ and ďt-Rex armsĒ.

Imagine being on a night out and the highlight is shouting stuff at a footballer who used to play for your rivals whilst filming it and putting it on the internet. Bunch of meffs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Make a nice change for them from chinning horses.  The scruffy inbred cunts
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Silas on April 02, 2019, 03:32:31 AM
Someone wants to have a word like he's a bit of a pleb
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on April 02, 2019, 03:40:21 AM
Someone wants to have a word like he's a bit of a pleb
He's just a lad
I agree he's in a position where he's gotta control it better but that's just a lad being a lad
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Silas on April 02, 2019, 03:48:37 AM
He's just a lad
I agree he's in a position where he's gotta control it better but that's just a lad being a lad

Agree mate but it's 2019 you can't get away with this stuff as a top england International in the modern media. They are creating a narrative around him as we speak, someone needs to be advising him a bit better
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on April 02, 2019, 03:54:46 AM
Agree mate but it's 2019 you can't get away with this stuff as a top england International in the modern media. They are creating a narrative around him as we speak, someone needs to be advising him a bit better
Totally agree pal, it's a grim world now whee you can provoke someone into doing something and they are deemed as OK.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on April 02, 2019, 04:18:52 AM
Seems the press have already decided what to do with him. Theyíll be following him round constantly hoping someone has a pop and his head goes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on April 02, 2019, 05:03:25 AM
Seems the press have already decided what to do with him. Theyíll be following him round constantly hoping someone has a pop and his head goes.

There must always be one working class lad the newspapers can enjoy picking apart.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ross on April 02, 2019, 05:24:51 AM
Think he needs the guidance of a good agent clearly heís not getting that from his family or inner circle.

Itís edging towards make or break time for him now.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: SteB on April 02, 2019, 06:58:55 AM
Average night out for a young lad really; insults, scuffle, mates pull him away, that's it. Everton need to have a word and that should be the end of it. The horrible gossiping press will have a field day for a while and opposition supporters will try to wind him up but he'll just have to deal with it and behave himself. Anyway here's all the footage of it in one place...
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=pickford+video#id=15&vid=fa2eceb174f6d941e533d250efc38f99&action=view
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blue1948 on April 02, 2019, 10:03:17 AM
Think he needs the guidance of a good agent clearly heís not getting that from his family or inner circle.

Itís edging towards make or break time for him now.

I suppose the "end of the world is nye " as well heh?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lazarou on April 02, 2019, 11:56:54 AM
Storm in a tea cup. I am sure most have us have engaged in knobhead behaviour, I certainly have when I was younger. It doesn't matter if your England's No.1 or just a bloke in a pub, sometimes the 'Knobhead' just gets the better of you.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on April 02, 2019, 12:39:23 PM
Don't remember this fuss when Tim Cahill was out scrapping with gangsters in the News Bar

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 02, 2019, 01:29:12 PM
The daily mail ladies gents

https://twitter.com/MailSport/status/1112838326187380736
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on April 02, 2019, 02:14:14 PM
The daily mail ladies gents

https://twitter.com/MailSport/status/1112838326187380736
Wasn't Matt Lawton the lad who started the This Is Anfield website?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 02, 2019, 02:28:26 PM
I reckon I'd "lose my cool" as well if a couple of pissed up cunts started calling my fiance all sorts.

That's what happened, they where having a go at Pickford all night, he wasn't arsed and laughed it off, so they started on his Mrs instead
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheTone on April 02, 2019, 02:46:58 PM
got to be swerving boozers really, tough at that age mind but think it should come with the privileged position he is in



Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueNoseMike on April 02, 2019, 03:25:14 PM
The guy who took the video calling Pickford t rex arms re tweeted an image of pickford saving that penalty for England last summer when he was a hero. Mad that isn't it?

I get what people are saying about Pickford rising above etc and maybe needing some guidance, but he's 25 he's gone to a pub (doesn't look that pissed).

We shouldn't be saying "oh Pickford needs to do...". It's the knobheads who are abusing him, they need sort themselves out raelly. Pathetic. Putting the responsibility on Pickford takes it off society and the idiots who do this
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 02, 2019, 03:29:43 PM
Some proper nasty shit being spouted about him on twitter, keyboard warriors all over the place.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on April 02, 2019, 03:58:52 PM
he only bit when his mrs started getting abuse didnt he ?  well thats according to most reports. i would have too
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Robioto on April 02, 2019, 04:08:52 PM
He'll get trouble where ever he goes now as people know he will react.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on April 02, 2019, 04:19:41 PM
You'd think this was the first time something like this had happened the way some people are going on. He's not the first and won't be the last sports star to get into a scuffle on a night out. In a week or two, all bar the biggest of bellends it will be forgotten about and people will have moved on to their next Twitter fume.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: gizzblue on April 02, 2019, 04:41:57 PM
Don't think a single one of us wouldn't defend our wife/bird ....good on you Jordan lad .

Trust a redshite to spunk it all over Twitter .
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on April 02, 2019, 04:51:08 PM
It is the knobheads fault who were trying to wind him up of course, but if we're honest with ourselves - those types aren't going away, and the players themselves need to be able to brush it off or get themselves away from the situation.

I cba having a big opinion on it and I cba defending him either really, he shouldn't have been involved and unfortunately starting to look like a pattern.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 02, 2019, 07:44:43 PM
Pickford was given permission to watch the Checkatrade trophy final in Sunderland with his friends, as it was mothers day he changed his plans and instead spent the day with his fiance and her family, he was subjected to insults throughout the day which he laughed off, he only lashed out when the insults where then aimed at his finance.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on April 02, 2019, 08:31:33 PM
Fuck it, we need him to be our world-class keeper, not a goddamned choir boy
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on April 02, 2019, 08:57:06 PM
Don't think a single one of us wouldn't defend our wife/bird ....good on you Jordan lad .

Trust a redshite to spunk it all over Twitter .
If it was started by a redshite itís a bit pot, kettle, black considering some of the antics their lot have got up to over the years.

No he shouldnít have got involved but the club will deal with it how they see fit. End of story, move on to the next one.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on April 02, 2019, 08:59:30 PM
You'd think this was the first time something like this had happened the way some people are going on. He's not the first and won't be the last sports star to get into a scuffle on a night out. In a week or two, all bar the biggest of bellends it will be forgotten about and people will have moved on to their next Twitter fume.
As it did with Barkley
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on April 03, 2019, 03:31:35 AM
So they followed him round all night and he didn't react until they started on his fiance.

Then he flipped, and rightly so. Bad little dickheads.

People complain footballers are out of touch, but when they can't go to a normal pub without his kind of shite then why wouldn't they stick to the vip areas and fuck the rest of us off?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on April 03, 2019, 04:00:48 AM
So they followed him round all night and he didn't react until they started on his fiance.

Then he flipped, and rightly so. Bad little dickheads.

People complain footballers are out of touch, but when they can't go to a normal pub without his kind of shite then why wouldn't they stick to the vip areas and fuck the rest of us off?
Not sure friends would've stopped me if someone called my Mrs anything

Sent from my CLT-L09 using NSNO Everton Forums mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88121)

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on April 03, 2019, 04:02:23 AM
How the fuck is this story on BBC News at 10
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: UnsyisaRhino on April 03, 2019, 04:40:25 AM
How the fuck is this story on BBC News at 10

They've moved on from sterling and need a new England player to target?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on April 03, 2019, 01:26:02 PM
Not sure friends would've stopped me if someone called my Mrs anything

Sent from my CLT-L09 using NSNO Everton Forums mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88121)
At least one would have helped you in dismantling them
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Big Nev on April 03, 2019, 02:52:35 PM
They've moved on from sterling and need a new England player to target?

They can also say they don't just pick on the black players, so not in the least racist.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on April 03, 2019, 03:38:42 PM
Awful lot of tough guys knocking about.

If someone swore at my missus I'm sure I'd kick off but I don't quite have the confidence in me being able to clear a bar full of geordies with my bare hands like.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on April 03, 2019, 03:53:13 PM
If a group of lads called my missus a fat cunt I'd just laugh and walk off, totally confuse the dickheads. Granted I might not have taken that approach had I been 25 but he does need to be a bit wiser. It's always going to be a risk if you go out on the pop all day with your missus to watch the footie on a pub crawl.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 03, 2019, 04:23:45 PM
If someone called my misses a fat cunt, I'd laugh my head off cos I haven't even got a misses hahahahahaha nobheads
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on April 03, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
If a group of lads called my missus a fat cunt I'd just laugh and walk off, totally confuse the dickheads. Granted I might not have taken that approach had I been 25 but he does need to be a bit wiser. It's always going to be a risk if you go out on the pop all day with your missus to watch the footie on a pub crawl.

Easy if your missus can laugh it off. What if she has her own 'body issues' after being dragged into the media spotlight for falling in love with someone who plays football? If Jordan knew those insults would actually hurt his fiance then that's a tough ask to walk away from. Would you walk away if someone hurt your missus? Doubt it.

I think it would be nice to see the club come out and say that they are talking to Jordan about how best to represent himself and his club, but they would like to ask the media why they are not throwing the spotlight onto football fans who think it is ok to abuse someone's family if you don't get a rise out of them. Footballers are being discriminated against because of their jobs. There are a lot of privileges that come with being a footballer, but that should not mean you have to give up any of your rights - and neither should other people who you are close to.
The media has made such a thing about attacking young English footballers that now football fans think this is acceptable. We would like to see the media redress this balance and send out a more positive message.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Silas on April 03, 2019, 05:12:02 PM
Nah I would go fucking nuts if someone had a pop at my wife like. I do think he needs to learn from stuff like this but I'm a 40 year old massive hypocrite who hasn't learnt a thing.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: DanDan on April 03, 2019, 05:13:27 PM
Easy if your missus can laugh it off. What if she has her own 'body issues' after being dragged into the media spotlight for falling in love with someone who plays football? If Jordan knew those insults would actually hurt his fiance then that's a tough ask to walk away from. Would you walk away if someone hurt your missus? Doubt it.

I think it would be nice to see the club come out and say that they are talking to Jordan about how best to represent himself and his club, but they would like to ask the media why they are not throwing the spotlight onto football fans who think it is ok to abuse someone's family if you don't get a rise out of them. Footballers are being discriminated against because of their jobs. There are a lot of privileges that come with being a footballer, but that should not mean you have to give up any of your rights - and neither should other people who you are close to.
The media has made such a thing about attacking young English footballers that now football fans think this is acceptable. We would like to see the media redress this balance and send out a more positive message.

She has also just had a baby
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 03, 2019, 05:24:12 PM
She's not fat at all like, absolute stunner, he's deffo punching
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on April 03, 2019, 05:38:40 PM
Problem as I see it nowadays people are put on pedestal's by the general public/media... as such they become easy targets....i'm not just talking footballers, TV personalities etc here but teachers, policemen, anyone with a job that is deemed as a cut above the norm basically....

unfortunately they have to recognise that as they are in the public eye they have a "responsibility" not to "get involved" and try and walk away....having said that it's difficult when you're trying to stay calm and not get involved.. when some idiot/s want to keep on and on and wont let it go....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on April 03, 2019, 05:39:58 PM
Iíve been in a similar situation myself and just ended up laughing it off.

Nothing wrong with throwing hands though. Some people need a dig to realise they should stop being a bellend.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on April 03, 2019, 05:47:05 PM
I mean, from what I heard he was on a table shouting who wants these cunts then

Verging on begby territory!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on April 03, 2019, 05:48:44 PM
problem is throwing hands is exactly the reaction what they're after to get it on bloody social media....even if he'd of just told him to "fkk off" it would've been a reaction that the media would of picked up on...so any type of reaction is what they're after...

if pickford had of just walked away from this would it have been plastered all over the papers & social media? I doubt it...

they do it now to get a reaction to get their twatter (spelt deliberately) account ups and give them 5 minutes of fame..
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on April 03, 2019, 07:03:47 PM
At least one would have helped you in dismantling them
That's exactly what I was thinking of, hahahaha just every cunt steaming hahahaha

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on April 03, 2019, 07:05:30 PM
Awful lot of tough guys knocking about.

If someone swore at my missus I'm sure I'd kick off but I don't quite have the confidence in me being able to clear a bar full of geordies with my bare hands like.
I'd have a fucking good try man...
But I'm an absolute fucking dickhead with stuff like that, don't think, and if the mist descends then... Well it's different...

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on April 03, 2019, 07:07:43 PM
I'd have a fucking good try man...
But I'm an absolute fucking dickhead with stuff like that, don't think, and if the mist descends then... Well it's different...

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Yep that's fair and I know to some people the idea of not immediately banging out a load of fellas is alien, but for me to start throwing digs it would have to have been escalated to that point physically, or literally no way to remove myself and her from the situation peacefully.

I am a massive fanny though so you know.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 03, 2019, 07:25:14 PM
I am a massive fanny though so you know.

Would never of guessed  :snigger:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on April 03, 2019, 07:40:01 PM
Iím more with @brap2 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) on this one.

Obviously itís not nice but you have to expect and anticipate knobhead behaviour like that in his position.

Either donít put yourself in that position in the first place (ie donít go out on the lash with a load of footie fans) or learn to walk away, if it does get like that.

People keep saying Ďif it was me...í. Well itís not me or you. Itís somebody in an incredibly privileged position in society, and one of the tiny negatives of that is that you canít live your life like every other young lad, and you are representing your football club in public. A very small price to pay for the overwhelming positives it brings.

Club should defo be having a word with him imo.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on April 03, 2019, 08:45:44 PM
Iím more with @brap2 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) on this one.

Obviously itís not nice but you have to expect and anticipate knobhead behaviour like that in his position. I totally agree but ask why ?

Either donít put yourself in that position in the first place (ie donít go out on the lash with a load of footie fans) or learn to walk away, if it does get like that. He was with his mates and girlfriend in his own hometown !!

People keep saying Ďif it was me...í. Well itís not me or you. Itís somebody in an incredibly privileged position in society,
TBH bluntly honest it's this train of thought that leads to this type of behaviour towards him...Ö.He is not in "an incredibly privileged position in society"...Ö..he's in a very well paid job that he's made sacrifices for and worked hard to achieve......

and one of the tiny negatives of that is that you canít live your life like every other young lad, totally agree but only in a sense that he's a professional sportsman...Ö.and you are representing your football club in public. irrelevant when you go out and get lashed up (if you do) do you think "oh hang on i'm representing the company I work for..i'd better not.."

A very small price to pay for the overwhelming positives it brings. Agree from the perspective he's a professional sportsperson

Club should defo be having a word with him imo. Agree but only from a perspective of protecting him and his family..
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on April 03, 2019, 10:06:15 PM
Yep that's fair and I know to some people the idea of not immediately banging out a load of fellas is alien, but for me to start throwing digs it would have to have been escalated to that point physically, or literally no way to remove myself and her from the situation peacefully.

I am a massive fanny though so you know.
Mate if I can remove myself I will, if I'm with my Mrs and kids I try harder to get them and myself away safe, by myself different story, anything to my Mrs and kids, different story.

Fuck all wrong with getting yourself and your loved ones away man, it's not a fanny move at all, we're all different, I'm a knobhead who likes to see if he can still fight.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bluenuck on April 03, 2019, 10:12:34 PM
Iím more with @brap2 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) on this one.

Obviously itís not nice but you have to expect and anticipate knobhead behaviour like that in his position.

Either donít put yourself in that position in the first place (ie donít go out on the lash with a load of footie fans) or learn to walk away, if it does get like that.

People keep saying Ďif it was me...í. Well itís not me or you. Itís somebody in an incredibly privileged position in society, and one of the tiny negatives of that is that you canít live your life like every other young lad, and you are representing your football club in public. A very small price to pay for the overwhelming positives it brings.

Club should defo be having a word with him imo.

I remember when I was young and dumb...and drunk one day. I was heckling a baseball player who had been just sent down to the minor leagues. He walked over to me and said ďIím making 9 million dollars this year to play here, how much you make?Ē

I didnít heckle him ever again... itís that simple.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Goaljira on April 04, 2019, 03:49:32 AM
She's not fat at all like, absolute stunner, he's deffo punching

Well, swinging arms at least.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on April 04, 2019, 04:20:45 AM
Mate if I can remove myself I will, if I'm with my Mrs and kids I try harder to get them and myself away safe, by myself different story, anything to my Mrs and kids, different story.

Fuck all wrong with getting yourself and your loved ones away man, it's not a fanny move at all, we're all different, I'm a knobhead who likes to see if he can still fight.

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Haha. Sounds like a 14 year old that's just come out of a Rocky movie.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on April 04, 2019, 04:58:11 AM
Haha. Sounds like a 14 year old that's just come out of a Rocky movie.

So you talk to a lot of 14 year olds outside of cinemas?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on April 04, 2019, 09:01:56 AM
Haha. Sounds like a 14 year old that's just come out of a Rocky movie.
Sadly not



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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on April 04, 2019, 09:02:11 AM
So you talk to a lot of 14 year olds outside of cinemas?


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on April 05, 2019, 08:12:21 PM
Everton manager Marco Silva says goalkeeper Jordan Pickford has been reminded of his duties and obligations after being caught up in a disturbance inSunderland at the weekend.

The England number one appeared to be involved in a fracas in the early hours of Monday morning. Northumbria Police and Everton are investigating the incident, and Toffees boss Silva made it clear on Friday he is "not happy" about it.

"Football players have duties and obligations. It is a matter for us to remind him and everything we must do we already did," Silva said.

"If you ask me as a manager I am not happy with what happened."

"The first chat of the week I was clear with him.

Everything is clear in his mind about his obligations. It is my expectation it won't happen again. No one is happy with the situation, it was not a good thing. The matter is finished in this moment."
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on April 05, 2019, 08:39:13 PM
Everton manager Marco Silva says goalkeeper Jordan Pickford has been reminded of his duties and obligations after being caught up in a disturbance inSunderland at the weekend.

The England number one appeared to be involved in a fracas in the early hours of Monday morning. Northumbria Police and Everton are investigating the incident, and Toffees boss Silva made it clear on Friday he is "not happy" about it.

"Football players have duties and obligations. It is a matter for us to remind him and everything we must do we already did," Silva said.

"If you ask me as a manager I am not happy with what happened."

"The first chat of the week I was clear with him.

Everything is clear in his mind about his obligations. It is my expectation it won't happen again. No one is happy with the situation, it was not a good thing. The matter is finished in this moment."

Exactly what I would've wanted him to say, word for word. Not to blame Pickford particularly, but to remind him of his responsibilities and not to put himself in these situations, and leave himself open to these things reoccurring.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on April 05, 2019, 09:56:52 PM
Exactly what I would've wanted him to say, word for word. Not to blame Pickford particularly, but to remind him of his responsibilities and not to put himself in these situations, and leave himself open to these things reoccurring.

Yeah. Disappointed he didn't call out the fans and the media, but I'm ok with that.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Trowel on December 22, 2019, 09:44:04 PM
😡

https://twitter.com/Matt_Inne5/status/1208567356156452864
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on December 22, 2019, 09:52:15 PM
Meh, got the day off today so doesnít bother me.

More bothered about some of the goals heís been giving away this season and how he hardly seems to save anything these days.

Think he looks proper out of shape as well so maybe he should knock this type of stuff on the head?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on December 22, 2019, 09:59:10 PM
Totally unprofessional. He strikes me as being a bit of a twat! Blowing off steam etc all good and well but your career and life and job is to be in peak physical shape and this coming week is the busiest time for a pro footballer.

This sort of behaviour is why he has. Become no better than average. Hardly saves anything and his distribution is poor.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Spider-pig on December 22, 2019, 10:06:24 PM
Watching Pickford, gives me no. Icinfdence, I would rather Ben foster or schmechll or wotever the spelling is, he saves naff all Pickford he doesn't command the box and makes me miss Howard (well not really) but nearly
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on December 22, 2019, 10:06:26 PM
Heís been average this season but still made at least one important save in each of the Chelsea, Utd and Arsenal games.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on December 22, 2019, 10:07:40 PM
I donít necessarily think heís the keeper we need to take us to where we want to be but there are many, many more pressing concerns in the squad.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on December 22, 2019, 10:08:12 PM
Don't have a problem with it. The players are obviously on a day off, it's five days before our next game and they'll be in as normal on Christmas Day training. Nothing wrong with going out with your mates every now and then.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 22, 2019, 10:25:23 PM
I think there's going out and there's going out and looking like a prick. He's done the latter. He needs to wake up and take a look in the mirror, his performances haven't been great and stuff like this just makes him look like a tool, which I think he is anyway

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on December 22, 2019, 10:57:56 PM
Anyone who has gone through late Tim Howard, Maarten Stekelenberg and Joel Robles should be more than happy with having Pickford between the sticks.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Spider-pig on December 22, 2019, 11:23:12 PM
Anyone who has gone through late Tim Howard, Maarten Stekelenberg and Joel Robles should be more than happy with having Pickford between the sticks.
good shout
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mac934 on December 22, 2019, 11:25:36 PM
It's all well and good, but, if he has a shit game and drops a howler this video will go viral and seriously damage his reputation.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on December 22, 2019, 11:30:44 PM
Anyone who has gone through late Tim Howard, Maarten Stekelenberg and Joel Robles should be more than happy with having Pickford between the sticks.

Fuckinell! What happened to Tim Howard?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on December 22, 2019, 11:31:00 PM
Is that defo him ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on December 22, 2019, 11:31:08 PM
 lolol
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GLewis on December 22, 2019, 11:33:02 PM
Fuckinell! What happened to Tim Howard?

He got old!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on December 22, 2019, 11:34:40 PM
Is that defo him ?

100%
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheTone on December 22, 2019, 11:37:20 PM
Don't see Keane, if the lad in blue is Keane then we are in even more trouble at centre half than I thought

Maybe go to a private club to let off steam where there's no fucking cameras about
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: 74Blue on December 22, 2019, 11:37:39 PM
Pickford's been shite so far this season. This is supposed to be England's No1, and he does not inspire any confidence whatsoever at the minute. His distribution has been largely poor with the ball going straight out of play more often than it hits it's intended target and he has looked less than comfortable commanding his area. His shot stopping from distance is ok, but not exactly world class and every time a striker gets one on one with him you fully expect him to concede. Maybe it's time to see what Lossl has to offer, as he can't be much worse than the sub-par performances Pickford has been putting in for us this season.
I'm watching Pickford at the minute wondering exactly what all the hype was with this kid we signed from Sunderland for a kings ransom.
The Pickford that we are seeing at the minute is a shadow of that cocky kid with bags of talent that arrived a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on December 22, 2019, 11:39:31 PM
What's the problem here, football players to have lives as well, he's a young lad having a night out and a laugh with his mates, nothing at all wrong with it at all
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheTone on December 22, 2019, 11:40:44 PM
Boring boring tables
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 22, 2019, 11:42:08 PM
No problem with him being out and enjoying himself but heís a very average keeper. Heís really not kicked on like we hoped.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on December 22, 2019, 11:43:01 PM
No problem with it, as long as he isnt breaking any club rules.

Would like him to up his game though.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on December 22, 2019, 11:44:00 PM
I know a lot us agree or disagree on his ability but man is he a bellend. Looks like hes been on an all dayer in Wethers ffs rather than being Englands no 1.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on December 22, 2019, 11:46:53 PM
I know a lot us agree or disagree on his ability but man is he a bellend. Looks like hes been on an all dayer in Wethers ffs rather than being Englands no 1.

But classist?

He is a young working class lad, what do you expect him to do? Drink in the ritz? Spend hundreds on a glass of champagne?

Bit like when everyone would go on about Rooney.

Snobbery in my opinion.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on December 22, 2019, 11:56:51 PM
But classist?

He is a young working class lad, what do you expect him to do? Drink in the ritz? Spend hundreds on a glass of champagne?

Bit like when everyone would go on about Rooney.

Snobbery in my opinion.
Certainly nothing wrong with all day sessions in spoons as I well know,  but you dont expect Englands no 1 to be downing shots and pints anywhere regardless of cost. Surely with the trappings of the job the least you should do is behave in a certain way and look after yourself as you are a role model?

This is not the 1st time either so I'd hoped hed learnt his lesson and if drinking in the Ritz keeps him out of trouble  and allows him to improve his average form I'm all for it !
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on December 23, 2019, 12:54:38 AM
Meh, got the day off today so doesnít bother me.

More bothered about some of the goals heís been giving away this season and how he hardly seems to save anything these days.

Think he looks proper out of shape as well so maybe he should knock this type of stuff on the head?

Yeah not arsed personally.

Altho the shite have personal tailored meal plans designed to eke every bit of speed strength and endurance from them as athletes while aiding recovery, our lot are up to this.

All that said... While it's not a priority I'd still 100% sell him if there was an offer. Talented but too much of ahead the ball, too me me me. Plus out of the 14 'not top 6' players, he's had the second worst save % this season.

Yes we've have one of the highest xg quality of shits against so it kinda adds up, but a top top keeper should save over expected surely.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GLewis on December 23, 2019, 01:05:14 AM
Yeah not arsed personally.

Altho the shite have personal tailored meal plans designed to eke every bit of speed strength and endurance from them as athletes while aiding recovery, our lot are up to this.

All that said... While it's not a priority I'd still 100% sell him if there was an offer. Talented but too much of ahead the ball, too me me me. Plus out of the 14 'not top 6' players, he's had the second worst save % this season.

Yes we've have one of the highest xg quality of shits against so it kinda adds up, but a top top keeper should save over expected surely.

Iím sure their players do go out. But itís probably to private events.

If youíre doing this in public then youíve got to ensure youíre playing well, otherwise thereíll be questions (fairly or not).

As said re save % we do concede good chances, so itís not surprising that his is low.

Add in general pressure of poor team performances as itís less surprising.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on December 23, 2019, 01:10:07 AM
Iím sure their players do go out. But itís probably to private events.

If youíre doing this in public then youíve got to ensure youíre playing well, otherwise thereíll be questions (fairly or not).

As said re save % we do concede good chances, so itís not surprising that his is low.

Add in general pressure of poor team performances as itís less surprising.



I don't mind the questions really and sure if he's smashing it then great but less of a concern for me, the optics etc.

He's not THE problem, but he's maybe an asset we could flip without losing any upside.

Plus he's irritating. Getting into it with opposition fans before slicing it out of play. Not for me that.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GLewis on December 23, 2019, 01:13:36 AM
I don't mind the questions really and sure if he's smashing it then great but less of a concern for me, the optics etc.

He's not THE problem, but he's maybe an asset we could flip without losing any upside.

Plus he's irritating. Getting into it with opposition fans before slicing it out of play. Not for me that.

Does feel like it could get to a fine point. Not whether heís useless or not but, as you say, whether we could sell quite high without risk of missing out on a world class player.

Another one for an Ancelotti raised eyebrow to calm him down and get the best out of him?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on December 23, 2019, 01:21:54 AM
When I played in goal, I always felt I did a lot better when I was pissed. Maybe thatís what Pickford thinking.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on December 23, 2019, 01:23:53 AM
Wetherspoons are grim places.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 23, 2019, 01:27:35 AM
Wetherspoons are grim places.

Depends. Iíve been in some really nice ones. And then Iíve been in some really horrendous ones
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 01:36:55 AM
Meh, he's allowed to have a good time. Not an issue is it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 23, 2019, 01:53:11 AM
I'm shocked people are being so lenient, this isn't Sunday league shit we're in, we're going into the busiest time of the season and our keeper, who hasn't been performing, is out in the lash. Don't have a problem with people going out and enjoying themselves but it's all about moderating and taking your job seriously, he looks fucked.
Personally I wouldn't care if we sold him, the only person that thinks he's world class is him and he'd needs a massive reality check.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on December 23, 2019, 01:55:40 AM
Meh, he's allowed to have a good time. Not an issue is it.
perhaps not in England but Im sure Carlo isn't impressed.  Him and Keane has not really earned a good night out in our tight schedule have they?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 02:01:39 AM
perhaps not in England but Im sure Carlo isn't impressed.  Him and Keane has not really earned a good night out in our tight schedule have they?

5 days off isn't exactly a tight schedule. I find it very hard to get on board the outrage express when players go out and have a few bevies, because at the end of the day they're human. He's not out on the lash constantly, that's when it becomes an issue.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on December 23, 2019, 02:03:04 AM
Sorry but very average keepers dont stay as englands number 1
No problem with him being out and enjoying himself but he's a very average keeper. He's really not kicked on like we hoped.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Cereal Killer on December 23, 2019, 02:04:55 AM
Did I imagine him pulling off a blinder to stop Arsenal scoring and getting us a point?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 23, 2019, 02:07:02 AM
Sorry but very average keepers dont stay as englands number 1
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I mean, they kind of do considering he's not even in the world's top 20, none of which are English.

I don't care if he's unwinding, but in this day & age maybe he shouldn't be doing it in such a flamboyant fashion in the "going to be captured on social media" public eye is all.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 23, 2019, 02:07:17 AM
Did I imagine him pulling off a blinder to stop Arsenal scoring and getting us a point?
If the blinder was the one headed about a foot away from his arm, that every other keeper in the league would've saved then no, you didn't imagine it

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on December 23, 2019, 02:08:01 AM
Did I imagine him pulling off a blinder to stop Arsenal scoring and getting us a point?
Yeah he was pissed then.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: velimski on December 23, 2019, 02:10:29 AM
It was a good save. Let's not pretend it wasn't.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 23, 2019, 02:17:41 AM
It was a good save. Let's not pretend it wasn't.

It was a brilliant save IMO.

But I simply think he's a class stopper, and an average-at-best keeper. The more time he has to think, the more likely he'll screw things up. On pure reflex alone? He's probably one of the best in the world.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on December 23, 2019, 02:19:15 AM
Pickford is a very good keeper. Absolutely nothing very average about him

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on December 23, 2019, 02:24:06 AM
Imo hes in top 10 in the world
I mean, they kind of do considering he's not even in the world's top 20, none of which are English.

I don't care if he's unwinding, but in this day & age maybe he shouldn't be doing it in such a flamboyant fashion in the "going to be captured on social media" public eye is all.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheTone on December 23, 2019, 02:27:42 AM
Imo hes in top 10 in the world
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Of twats
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on December 23, 2019, 02:28:45 AM
Sorry but very average keepers dont stay as englands number 1
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They do if there are no other decent options. England have rarely had such bad goalkeeping options in my opinion.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on December 23, 2019, 02:30:46 AM
Imo hes in top 10 in the world
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Cba to list them but nowhere near surely
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 23, 2019, 02:32:04 AM
Imo hes in top 10 in the world
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De Gea
Ter Stegen
Neuer
Courtois
Alison
Ederson
Kepa
Handanovic
Oblak
Donnarumma
Schmeichel
Trapp

Which of those do you think he's better than?

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on December 23, 2019, 02:34:08 AM
Schmeichel lolol
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 23, 2019, 02:35:46 AM
Schmeichel lolol
You don't rate him? I bet you most would have him over Pickford

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on December 23, 2019, 02:36:48 AM
You don't rate him? I bet you most would have him over Pickford

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He isnt in the top 10 thats for sure
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: penguinofdoom1878 on December 23, 2019, 02:37:08 AM
I mean, they kind of do considering he's not even in the world's top 20, none of which are English.

I don't care if he's unwinding, but in this day & age maybe he shouldn't be doing it in such a flamboyant fashion in the "going to be captured on social media" public eye is all.

who are these 20 keepers ahead of him
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 23, 2019, 02:38:20 AM
He isnt in the top 10 thats for sure
Was just listing out keepers that are better imo than Picks, I might've missed some but that was about 12 off hand

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 02:40:04 AM
De Gea

Who incidentally has had shockers in his last 3 games. Also noticed you have Neuer in your list, which begs the question; do you watch much football or do you go off reputations?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on December 23, 2019, 02:40:11 AM
The top 3 and oblak are probably best in world,  pickford every bit as good as the others.  Hes been playing behined a silva defence last 18 months,  all them keepers would look suspect to average if they were in our team
De Gea
Ter Stegen
Neuer
Courtois
Alison
Ederson
Kepa
Handanovic
Oblak
Donnarumma
Schmeichel
Trapp

Which of those do you think he's better than?

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 02:40:39 AM
You don't rate him? I bet you most would have him over Pickford

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Nah
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on December 23, 2019, 02:41:18 AM
Was just listing out keepers that are better imo than Picks, I might've missed some but that was about 12 off hand

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Schmeichel isnt better than him anyway
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: velimski on December 23, 2019, 02:41:51 AM
Not like we're blessed with top 10/20 world players in any other position is it, bar Digne, so i'm not sure why Pickford is being singled out. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 23, 2019, 02:46:32 AM
who are these 20 keepers ahead of him

Neuer
Ter Stegen
Alisson
Schmeichel
De Gea (though he's having a mare of a season)
Oblak
Ederson
Sommar
Perin
Kepa
Courtois
Hradecky
Handanovic
Buffon

There's a bunch, I didn't count them tbh
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 23, 2019, 02:47:42 AM
Who incidentally has had shockers in his last 3 games. Also noticed you have Neuer in your list, which begs the question; do you watch much football or do you go off reputations?

I watch plenty, and Neuer is still incredible. One of the best in the world. And that's behind Munich's leaky faucet defense.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 02:49:12 AM
Interesting how many of these other keepers play in front of a settled defence, with Michael fucking Keane nowhere in sight.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 23, 2019, 02:50:03 AM
I watch plenty, and Neuer is still incredible. One of the best in the world. And that's behind Munich's leaky faucet defense.
Well he can't be doing too bad considering Ter Stegen can't displace him for Germany, but maybe they go on reputation too!!!?

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 02:50:15 AM
I watch plenty, and Neuer is still incredible. One of the best in the world. And that's behind Munich's leaky faucet defense.

Heís a shadow of his former self. Take your Bayern specs of. Nowhere near best in the world these days.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 02:51:49 AM
Well he can't be doing too bad considering Ter Stegen can't displace him for Germany, but maybe they go on reputation too!!!?

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Not like the Germans have a reputation for clinging on to a keeper well past his best.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 23, 2019, 02:53:04 AM
Heís a shadow of his former self. Take your Bayern specs of. Nowhere near best in the world these days.

All that tells me is that 80% of Neuer is better than 100% of Pickford.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: penguinofdoom1878 on December 23, 2019, 02:58:23 AM
Well he can't be doing too bad considering Ter Stegen can't displace him for Germany, but maybe they go on reputation too!!!?

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Well maybe the Bayern presidents threat of not releasing his players for international duty should Low drop Neuer for Ter Stegen might have had some effect there.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 02:58:43 AM
All that tells me is that 80% of Neuer is better than 100% of Pickford.

Iím not comparing. My original quote which you jumped on was the suggestion that Neuer is 3rd in the world. Not having it.

The problem when it comes to rating keepers is that everyone goes off reputation and clips. The lists here are evidence of that. Which those keepers week in week out and youíd have different opinions. If we had De Gea half this forum would be saying heís done. No allowance for form.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 23, 2019, 03:00:30 AM
Iím not comparing. My original quote which you jumped on was the suggestion that Neuer is 3rd in the world. Not having it.

The problem when it comes to rating keepers is that everyone goes off reputation and clips. The lists here are evidence of that. Which those keepers week in week out and youíd have different opinions. If we had De Gea half this forum would be saying heís done. No allowance for form.

Oh, well I'm not saying Neuer is 3rd-best in the world. I was going off the question asked "who are these 20 better keepers than [Pickford]?" I didn't post in any particular order.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 23, 2019, 03:01:27 AM
I'm not comparing. My original quote which you jumped on was the suggestion that Neuer is 3rd in the world. Not having it.

The problem when it comes to rating keepers is that everyone goes off reputation and clips. The lists here are evidence of that. Which those keepers week in week out and you'd have different opinions. If we had De Gea half this forum would be saying he's done. No allowance for form.
Okay my list wasn't in any particular order, it was just a list of names that I said are better than Picks irrespective of form. Neuer was 3rd on that list, but I'm not saying his 3rd best in the world

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on December 23, 2019, 03:15:06 AM
It was a good save. Let's not pretend it wasn't.

Most importand aspect of go keeping is surely your positioning. He got it bang on and smothered a big big chance.

A goalkeeper who has to make lots and lots of Hollywood saves needs to look at where he's standing!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on December 23, 2019, 03:22:52 AM
But classist?

He is a young working class lad, what do you expect him to do? Drink in the ritz? Spend hundreds on a glass of champagne?

Bit like when everyone would go on about Rooney.

Snobbery in my opinion.
Why are you always trying to belittle posters with some sort of 'ist' accusation?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on December 23, 2019, 03:28:18 AM
Why are you always trying to belittle posters with some sort of 'ist' accusation?

Im not...?

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on December 23, 2019, 06:52:01 AM
He isnt in the top 10 thats for sure
you don't watch many international games ?.  His performance for Denmark has been nothing short of marvelous 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on December 23, 2019, 06:59:26 AM
5 days off isn't exactly a tight schedule. I find it very hard to get on board the outrage express when players go out and have a few bevies, because at the end of the day they're human. He's not out on the lash constantly, that's when it becomes an issue.
well  behaving like he did I think it was way more than a few bevies.  Not saying its right or wrong Just saying you almost only see it in England  - and that I'm sure Carlo isn't impressed
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 11:02:03 AM
you don't watch many international games ?.  His performance for Denmark has been nothing short of marvelous

As as Wayne Hennessy for Wales... but heís not in the top 50.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 11:03:19 AM
well  behaving like he did I think it was way more than a few bevies.  Not saying its right or wrong Just saying you almost only see it in England  - and that I'm sure Carlo isn't impressed

See it plenty in other countries. Difference here is footballers on and off the pitch have far less privacy than anywhere else.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 23, 2019, 12:01:16 PM
Pickford isnít a top keeper. Makes too many mistakes, not good enough on crosses and his distribution is just a quick punt down field which looks great the 1 in 5 times it leads to a counter but mainly just throws possession away

Thereís a fair argument that villa and Burnley have better keepers

As for his drinking I donít much care but maybe we should. They earn millions and as such probably should do everything in their power to produce elite performance. I think it highlights that footballers really arenít elite athletes. Pickford is out on the piss mid season, lukaku played a full season (and did relatively well) with weight issues and ronaldo gets immense credit for his dedication (because being an eltte athlete in football is a rarity not the norm)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on December 23, 2019, 12:15:35 PM
As as Wayne Hennessy for Wales... but heís not in the top 50.
comparing Hennessy to Schmeichel.... Did You notice the difference in attitude during the penalty shootout.  1 keeper wanted to win and it wasn't the guy waiting to go for a few bevies
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on December 23, 2019, 12:17:56 PM
comparing Hennessy to Schmeichel.... Did You notice the difference in attitude during the penalty shootout.  1 keeper wanted to win and it wasn't the guy waiting to go for a few bevies

Thats a bit of a stupid take? You saying Pickford didnt want to win...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 12:27:11 PM
comparing Hennessy to Schmeichel.... Did You notice the difference in attitude during the penalty shootout.  1 keeper wanted to win and it wasn't the guy waiting to go for a few bevies

Haha... one saved one penalty, the other two. Criminal.

And no, I'm not comparing the two. I'm suggesting that international football isn't the most accurate basis for measuring quality.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 23, 2019, 12:29:05 PM
Pickford isnít a top keeper. Makes too many mistakes, not good enough on crosses and his distribution is just a quick punt down field which looks great the 1 in 5 times it leads to a counter but mainly just throws possession away

Thereís a fair argument that villa and Burnley have better keepers

You see, when you openly admit to not watching much football it's hard to take anything you say about other team's players seriously.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 23, 2019, 01:08:10 PM
You see, when you openly admit to not watching much football it's hard to take anything you say about other team's players seriously.

Well keeping has got a hell of a lot worse if heís 1 of the top 10 in the world. I watch a lot of Pickford and heís just not that good
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on December 23, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
I know itís more cultural and itís something you do especially over in Europe but going out and getting hammered just canít be donít by a professional sportsman. Itís the very opposite of professional especially mid season.

The amount of money spent on nutritionist and fitness regimens etc to all just not care and get water and so publically.

Lots of learning and growing up to do. N
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GLewis on December 23, 2019, 01:44:43 PM
I know itís more cultural and itís something you do especially over in Europe but going out and getting hammered just canít be donít by a professional sportsman. Itís the very opposite of professional especially mid season.

The amount of money spent on nutritionist and fitness regimens etc to all just not care and get water and so publically.

Lots of learning and growing up to do. N

I mean we donít know whether the amount drunk is that unusual for a player.

But it is unusual to see it videoed which obviously makes it something people will talk about.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on December 23, 2019, 02:53:03 PM
Pickford is a very good keeper. Absolutely nothing very average about him

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His handling is average at best.  As is his ability to deal with balls into the box.  He's also a little short as compared to the average prem keeper, which has its draw backs, particularly on shots from distance.

He's well-above average when it comes to penalties, reaction saves, and one-v-ones. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on December 23, 2019, 02:55:40 PM
😡

https://twitter.com/Matt_Inne5/status/1208567356156452864

My biggest issue is how long it took him to down the pint.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on December 23, 2019, 03:06:29 PM
The problem with Pickford is that he's got less brain cells then we have points this year.

He's got an immense natural talent but not the mentality to back it up.

If he cuts this kind of crap out, plus stuff like reacting to the away fans etc he'll reach his potential... But it's going to take him longer than a lot of players because he's quite frankly thick as mince.

I hope Ancelotti sees this vid and makes it one of his first jobs to lay down the law to Pickford
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on December 23, 2019, 04:30:15 PM
Thats a bit of a stupid take? You saying Pickford didnt want to win...
no Im not. But I would have loved to see him in the face of the takers just like Schmeichel
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on December 23, 2019, 04:32:49 PM
Apparently there another vid of Michael Keane trying to down a pint, he lost his footing though and launched it into touch
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on December 23, 2019, 04:54:56 PM
I mean we don’t know whether the amount drunk is that unusual for a player.

But it is unusual to see it videoed which obviously makes it something people will talk about.

I'd say it's pretty unusual to force yourself to drink a pint in under 10 seconds. Especially so if you're a professional athlete.

Even more strange to do it in public at a large event, knowing it will be recorded and circulated.

Compounded by the fact it might be wise to at least try and make an initial good impression when your club has just hired a new manager.

Go out, enjoy yourself, have a few beers to relax. Just don't be a dick about it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on December 23, 2019, 05:17:13 PM
Everybody including professional athletes should be allowed to go out and have a few laughs with their mates over some pints.
But downing pints  and then unsteadily climbing on a chair so everyone can see what a prat you are is probably best avoided.
It also shows how serious he is about his career and the sacrifices he is willing to make to become the best he can.
Cristiano Ronaldo's idea of a good time is going home and doing 10,000 sit ups. Maybe this is why at 34 years old he can still score goals like the one against Sampdoria.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mac934 on December 23, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Imagine the furore if he'd fell off the table and broke his arm or dislocated his shoulder/ elbow. He needs to grow up as a pro footballer it's not good.
It's not just the night on the piss is it though, it's the days afterwards, getting the alcohol out of the system and the body back in top condition again.
Especially with all the games coming thick and fast.
He fucks up against Burnley and that video will be all over the media.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Blue Lagoon on December 23, 2019, 06:01:32 PM
All the best goalkeepers are mad as badgers imho


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mac934 on December 23, 2019, 06:09:31 PM
Mad as badgers, not pissed as newts :snigger:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: cantoffee on December 23, 2019, 06:10:55 PM
Meh- I like him and can't see us replacing him for awhile given the other areas in the squad that are in much more dire need.

Hopefully in that time he can get his game up another level. Still young for a keeper.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on December 23, 2019, 06:22:52 PM
I'd say it's pretty unusual to force yourself to drink a pint in under 10 seconds. Especially so if you're a professional athlete.

Even more strange to do it in public at a large event, knowing it will be recorded and circulated.

Compounded by the fact it might be wise to at least try and make an initial good impression when your club has just hired a new manager.

Go out, enjoy yourself, have a few beers to relax. Just don't be a dick about it.

Exactly, and it's extremely unlikely that the pint he downed was just one of the two pints he'd drank that night...you're usually a few sheets to the wind  when doing stuff like that.

It's extremely unprofessional and you'd hope Ancelotti stamps this out of his behaviour immediately
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on December 23, 2019, 07:16:49 PM
Footballers are allowed to enjoy themselves, just saying like.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on December 23, 2019, 07:36:14 PM
All the best goalkeepers are mad as badgers imho


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Maybe in the 80ís or early 90ís. Where Tony Adams could get away with it. Him at the darts wanting to be a lad in front of a crowd is a bit like him engaging with away fans when he should concentrate on his game.

Allison isnít a bit mad is he? Best keeper in the world. Ederson? Buffon? This are all serious sportsmen at the top of their games. Pickford is talented but hopelessly immature.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 23, 2019, 08:29:49 PM
Youíre a young manager for a company, and you have a huge presentation at the end of the week thatís worth several million dollars. Itís going to take a lot of work to get done, and done well enough to close the deal. Itís even more important because the companyís new senior director Ė your boss Ė is joining the presentation for the first time.

Youíve been working hard at nailing it but itís just not perfect yet; itís clear that itíll take even more hard work still.

Three days before the presentation, videos surface of you out at a bar, chugging pints & doing shots, and standing on chairs making an ass of yourself. This is all captured because itís 2019.

This isnít the first time this sort of thing has surfaced. There has been some fairly vocal criticism of your work lately, and youíre under even more scrutiny because your employer pays you more than £5m in annual salary.

Is it a good look? Or is it fine because youíre 25 and itís "after hours?"
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on December 23, 2019, 08:33:37 PM
He's come from a massive drinking culture at Sunderland (the football club) so I can't say I'm surprised.

I also don't think it's a massive issue. He's been faultless lately.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 23, 2019, 11:01:20 PM
Considering Carlo has stated Kean needs to improve his professionalism I can't imagine he'll stand for much of this shit

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on December 23, 2019, 11:06:08 PM
Footballers are allowed to enjoy themselves, just saying like.

Footballer's need to look after themselves physically... getting smashed on drink in between games isn't doing that.  It's about professionalism and commitment to being in peak shape for not just the games but training too where gains in performance can be made.

Sadly Pickford isn't mature enough or bright enough to understand this.  I like him as a keeper but his mentality isn't that of someone who will reach their potential which is worrying, considering we bought him based on that potential.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toffee Tuesdays on December 23, 2019, 11:18:35 PM
I'd say it's pretty unusual to force yourself to drink a pint in under 10 seconds.

Seems to be the norm based on all the Englishmen I've met, though these encounters usually come at bars or parties to be fair.  Having said that, I'm not a huge fan of Pickford.  Maybe it's because time has passed and I forgot his mistakes, or its mainly due to the defence in front of him, but I felt more comfortable with Howard between the sticks
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: duncandisorderly on December 23, 2019, 11:30:40 PM
Not bothered about this, typical young lad behaviour. Needs to be careful not to over step the mark like some sportsmen in the public eye have but as long as it doesn't get out of hand it's fine. Don't rate him above average though as a keeper, distribution on the whole is crap, doesn't save as many as he should either. He's okay for where we are now but I would sell him if we got a decent offer.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 23, 2019, 11:32:47 PM
Same people taking issue are the same people who look forward to posting about him in the match day thread for slicing it out of touch trying to launch a counter attach or seemingly being the only goalkeeper in the history of the sport to parry and absolute howitzer into a ďdanger zoneĒ.

To be expected really.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 12:00:45 AM
Same people taking issue are the same people who look forward to posting about him in the match day thread for slicing it out of touch trying to launch a counter attach or seemingly being the only goalkeeper in the history of the sport to parry and absolute howitzer into a ďdanger zoneĒ.

To be expected really.

Surely thatís logical though. The people who donít think heís doing too well are the people who think more professionalism might help. Seems like that didnít need mentioning
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 24, 2019, 12:02:15 AM
Yeah mate thatís it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 12:29:31 AM
Yeah mate thatís it.

What else could it be?? People out to get him despite great form and professionalism. Seems outlandish
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: wepull on December 24, 2019, 12:33:43 AM
He's a very good keeper and he's currently least of our concerns. Also no need to compare every footballer with Ronaldo, he's an outlier and not the norm. We are going through a decent run of games after a long time and we have continuous games after this 5 days break, so it's fine if he enjoys a drink or two when he most probably won't even be celebrating much during Christmas or the New year's Eve.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 24, 2019, 01:43:50 AM
What else could it be?? People out to get him despite great form and professionalism. Seems outlandish

Imagine if some people had a reputation for being somewhat outlandish.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 24, 2019, 01:51:04 AM
I know itís more cultural and itís something you do especially over in Europe but going out and getting hammered just canít be donít by a professional sportsman. Itís the very opposite of professional especially mid season.

The amount of money spent on nutritionist and fitness regimens etc to all just not care and get water and so publically.

Lots of learning and growing up to do. N

Bet is goes on in the NFL and NHL just as much. From what Iíve read of those sports too thereís plenty of recreational drug taking too.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 24, 2019, 01:57:02 AM
Exactly, and it's extremely unlikely that the pint he downed was just one of the two pints he'd drank that night...you're usually a few sheets to the wind  when doing stuff like that.

It's extremely unprofessional and you'd hope Ancelotti stamps this out of his behaviour immediately

 Nah, I start by downing the pints.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 02:05:12 AM
Imagine if some people had a reputation for being somewhat outlandish.

Itís easy if you try. The lost verse of John Lennonís Imagine
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on December 24, 2019, 02:12:32 AM
Fkk sake....get a grip...you blokes sit on internet all day then criticise a professional sportsman for drinking...I only saw him have one pint in the video yet some of you saw him lashed up having pints and shorts....

Donít forget this is the same bloke whoíll be working flat out over Christmas and new year and wonít touch a drop for perhaps 2 weeks ?

These blokes will work off a couple of pints in About first  15/20 mins of a training session....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 02:16:54 AM
Bet is goes on in the NFL and NHL just as much. From what Iíve read of those sports too thereís plenty of recreational drug taking too.

The drinking? Maybe, but not in the public eye. And tbh, most players in those 2 sports are long past the days of "partying." It's all about fitness and working out. The off-season is an entirely different story I'm sure.

As for drugs, there's no doubt many NFL players smoke weed, and some get caught because the NFL has antiquated drug policies, but you also have to understand that there's regular & random drug testing in every single major sport here. Our professional sports athletes are there to play and excel at their respective sports and everything else comes 2nd, if at all.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 02:21:35 AM
Fkk sake....get a grip...you blokes sit on internet all day then criticise a professional sportsman for drinking...I only saw him have one pint in the video yet some of you saw him lashed up having pints and shorts....

Donít forget this is the same bloke whoíll be working flat out over Christmas and new year and wonít touch a drop for perhaps 2 weeks ?

These blokes will work off a couple of pints in About first  15/20 mins of a training session....

Iím not sure if youíre joking or not. Working flat out over Christmas? Heís not working for the NHS. Elite athletes should behave like elite athletes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on December 24, 2019, 02:27:26 AM
Iím not sure if youíre joking or not. Working flat out over Christmas? Heís not working for the NHS. Elite athletes should behave like elite athletes.

Sorry guys no roasties for you...KNT told yous......
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 02:34:29 AM
Sorry guys no roasties for you...KNT told yous......

I really donít think itís a lot to ask. Heís picking up a few million a year. He gets 3 months off in the summer. He canít live a healthy lifestyle during the season?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toffee Tuesdays on December 24, 2019, 02:34:40 AM
The drinking? Maybe, but not in the public eye. And tbh, most players in those 2 sports are long past the days of "partying." It's all about fitness and working out. The off-season is an entirely different story I'm sure.

As for drugs, there's no doubt many NFL players smoke weed, and some get caught because the NFL has antiquated drug policies, but you also have to understand that there's regular & random drug testing in every single major sport here. Our professional sports athletes are there to play and excel at their respective sports and everything else comes 2nd, if at all.

Definitely disagree with this.  That's definitely the image they want to put forward though.  Just my opinion but I'd guess NFL players party more than footballers, during the season too.  Usually stays under wraps but there were things like the Giants WR boat trip in Miami a couple days before a playoff game.  Josh Gordon said he'd drink like 4 or 5 drinks before each game.  Obviously he's a bit of an exception but also the only ones who can be open about that sort of stuff are the ones who already served punishments or are retired
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on December 24, 2019, 02:37:55 AM
I really donít think itís a lot to ask. Heís picking up a few million a year. He gets 3 months off in the summer. He canít live a healthy lifestyle during the season?

Do you mean like the last 2 summers where he played for England at tournaments ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on December 24, 2019, 02:37:57 AM
All the fans saying he deserves a drink etc etc and to stop being so serious, at the same time as getting up tight about any commentators mocking our attempt to be ambitious and challenge again needs to see how many teams have players doing this across Europe.

Evertonís Jordan Pickford and possibly some full back from a club like Newport County.


Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on December 24, 2019, 02:38:16 AM
Bet is goes on in the NFL and NHL just as much. From what Iíve read of those sports too thereís plenty of recreational drug taking too.

Maybe but these guys are found out quickly and usually struggle to get contracts etc. End of season is their business. NHL guys play 82 regular games per season and practices. Play off games are extra. There is no time to be intoxicated or hungover. You donít make it far if you like that.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 24, 2019, 02:40:53 AM
Do you mean like the last 2 summers where he played for England at tournaments ?

Doesnít watch other footy apparently so may have not noticed tournaments going on tbf.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 02:40:56 AM
Definitely disagree with this.  That's definitely the image they want to put forward though.  Just my opinion but I'd guess NFL players party more than footballers, during the season too.  Usually stays under wraps but there were things like the Giants WR boat trip in Miami a couple days before a playoff game.  Josh Gordon said he'd drink like 4 or 5 drinks before each game.  Obviously he's a bit of an exception but also the only ones who can be open about that sort of stuff are the ones who already served punishments or are retired

Are you American? Not being snarky at all, just wondering how much U.S. sports coverage you're exposed to.

I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, of course there are, but the governing bodies of these sports have zero-tolerance policies and the NFL & MLB specifically have something known as "conduct unbecoming" that's hardwired into player contracts. Now maybe because of this their athletes have gotten much better at hiding it, but it's very different here. There's so much money at stake, etc. It's why the penalties are typically swift, harsh, and on occasion, season-ending (not frequently).
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 24, 2019, 02:42:40 AM
The drinking? Maybe, but not in the public eye. And tbh, most players in those 2 sports are long past the days of "partying." It's all about fitness and working out. The off-season is an entirely different story I'm sure.

As for drugs, there's no doubt many NFL players smoke weed, and some get caught because the NFL has antiquated drug policies, but you also have to understand that there's regular & random drug testing in every single major sport here. Our professional sports athletes are there to play and excel at their respective sports and everything else comes 2nd, if at all.

Itís no different over here fella with sports in regards to drug testing. Even at amateur level in the latter days of my career there was drug testing as we were still part of a National League.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 02:42:46 AM
Do you mean like the last 2 summers where he played for England at tournaments ?

Up to him how he spends his summers. Amazed people think itís okay him being out on the piss in the middle of our season. More so after he got into trouble already when out on the piss. Whatever Iím not right arsed to be totally honest but itís certainly not overly professional for an elite athlete
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GLewis on December 24, 2019, 02:44:10 AM
He is more of a target for these things because heís the England goalie and theyíre generally always walking a tightrope.

Wouldnít be bothered about that apart from the fact he plays for us and any dips in form due to unfair criticism affect us more than anyone.

I donít think itís much to ask, to be a bit more circumspect.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 02:44:26 AM
Itís no different over here fella with sports in regards to drug testing. Even at amateur level in the latter days of my career there was drug testing as we were still part of a National League.

Oh, ok. But then why suggest NFL/NHL players indulge in "plenty of recreational drug" use (even if secondhand through what you've read)?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on December 24, 2019, 02:44:47 AM
Doesnít watch other footy apparently so may have not noticed tournaments going on tbf.

Oh right heís forgiven then.......weird how he can form an opinion innit...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 02:45:43 AM
Doesnít watch other footy apparently so may have not noticed tournaments going on tbf.

What do you mean apparently. Iím hardly gonna lie about not having seen sheff Utd vs Brighton am I. Iím not trying to trick you x
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 02:47:16 AM
Oh right heís forgiven then.......weird how he can form an opinion innit...

On if elite athletes should be living healthy lifestyles? You two are an odd pair
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on December 24, 2019, 02:47:54 AM
Up to him how he spends his summers. Amazed people think itís okay him being out on the piss in the middle of our season. More so after he got into trouble already when out on the piss. Whatever Iím not right arsed to be totally honest but itís certainly not overly professional for an elite athlete

But you said he has 3 months off every summer !!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 24, 2019, 02:50:54 AM
Oh, ok. But then why suggest NFL/NHL players indulge in "plenty of recreational drug" use (even if secondhand through what you've read)?

Iím just relaying what Iíve read in books/autobiographies about the two sports. Seems there is or was a drugs culture in American Football going right the way down to the High School System. Granted Iíve not read one for a while mind so it may have changed.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 02:51:04 AM
But you said he has 3 months off every summer !!


He does from his paid job. You think he should go get pissed while we are paying him rather than while England arenít?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toffee Tuesdays on December 24, 2019, 02:52:00 AM
Are you American? Not being snarky at all, just wondering how much U.S. sports coverage you're exposed to.

I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, of course there are, but the governing bodies of these sports have zero-tolerance policies and the NFL & MLB specifically have something known as "conduct unbecoming" that's hardwired into player contracts. Now maybe because of this their athletes have gotten much better at hiding it, but it's very different here. There's so much money at stake, etc. It's why the penalties are typically swift, harsh, and on occasion, season-ending (not frequently).

Yeah, American.  I don't even think a player partying would be news here, they'd have to do something like get arrested for it to make a headline.  Also I think the NFL is very lenient and likes to keep things under wraps.  I'd call their policy "Zero tolerance once a video becomes public and it's bad enough where sponsors are complaining".  I have a cousin who likes to party and she knows several NFL players so at least some of them must go out a decent amount.  But yeah I'm sure there are plenty of guys who don't and they're likely the ones who will have the longest careers.  Always got the vibe that footballers in the prem seemed more like family men, not big party goers, than NFL players.  But maybe that's just the kind of player Everton has been signing for this past decade.  I don't really see too much news on the personal lives of players in the NFL nearly as much either.  Seems easier to fly under the radar as long as youre not a starting QB.  I doubt anyone on the england squad can go somewhere without being noticed
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 02:55:12 AM
Iím just relaying what Iíve read in books/autobiographies about the two sports. Seems there is or was a drugs culture in American Football going right the way down to the High School System. Granted Iíve not read one for a while mind so it may have changed.

I'm trying to find a politically correct way of validating your point...many NFL athletes come from backgrounds where they had no money and football was the only path to riches. So absolutely, there is so really poor judgment and behavior that some younger players exhibit. It's not the norm is all I'm saying. I guess you could say the same about Pickford lol. There just doesn't seem to be any consequences there, whereas you're risking quite a bit in the NFL.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on December 24, 2019, 02:55:49 AM
He does from his paid job. You think he should go get pissed while we are paying him rather than while England arenít?

Good effort trying to backtrack mate....You really need to get out more....of course they get paid by the FA they get appearance money......
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 02:57:27 AM
Yeah, American.  I don't even think a player partying would be news here, they'd have to do something like get arrested for it to make a headline.  Also I think the NFL is very lenient and likes to keep things under wraps.  I'd call their policy "Zero tolerance once a video becomes public and it's bad enough where sponsors are complaining".  I have a cousin who likes to party and she knows several NFL players so at least some of them must go out a decent amount.  But yeah I'm sure there are plenty of guys who don't and they're likely the ones who will have the longest careers.  Always got the vibe that footballers in the prem seemed more like family men, not big party goers, than NFL players.  But maybe that's just the kind of player Everton has been signing for this past decade.  I don't really see too much news on the personal lives of players in the NFL nearly as much either.  Seems easier to fly under the radar as long as youre not a starting QB.  I doubt anyone on the england squad can go somewhere without being noticed

That's really fair, and you're probably right in most cases. It certainly does seem that the governing bodies have done everything in a reactive way to avoid further scandal. I think this may be unique to the NFL for some of the reasons I said to Brownie above. I can't speak to the NBA as I don't pay any attention it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 24, 2019, 02:59:04 AM
Could KNT be any more dramatic? 🙄
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on December 24, 2019, 03:00:07 AM
NFL I think is sort of taking Cannabis off the prohibited drugs list and will be treating it like alcohol which is a step in the right direction.

I think it needs further classifying as well but the science has not caught up yet. Once we can differentiate toxic vs medical amounts will be a game changer.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 03:00:48 AM
NFL I think is sort of taking Cannabis off the prohibited drugs list and will be treating it like alcohol which is a step in the right direction.

I think it needs further classifying as well but the science has not caught up yet. Once we can differentiate toxic vs medical amounts will be a game changer.

Too bad they ruined Josh Gordon's career first, lol. Though he probably had something to do with it too.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 03:01:19 AM
Good effort trying to backtrack mate....You really need to get out more....of course they get paid by the FA they get appearance money......

They get paid next to nowt in comparison to their club contracts

Really not sure why you think heís okay to her pissed during our season because  he canít during an international competition.

Iím not even arsed. All I said was it was unprofessional. I donít know how anyone can even dispute that
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 03:02:27 AM
Could KNT be any more dramatic? 🙄

Feels like you might be my new stalker now (so yes I can be more dramatic)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 24, 2019, 03:03:53 AM
Not arsed but spent like seven pages giving it the bifftas. I canít even imagine how intense you are when youíre arsed about something. High maintenance.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on December 24, 2019, 03:07:35 AM
I donít remember saying he canít on whilst on international duty....but he can whilst during a season

You said he had 3 months off every summer I merely sarcastically stated like the past couple of summers where he was on international duty ....eredo....he didnít/doesnít have 3 months off every summer...

However it seems if you have your way he wonít be England keeper much longer so maybe he will have 3 months off next summer.......
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Cozzie on December 24, 2019, 03:28:24 AM
Footballers in "having a life outside of football" shocker.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 24, 2019, 03:36:55 AM
I'm trying to find a politically correct way of validating your point...many NFL athletes come from backgrounds where they had no money and football was the only path to riches. So absolutely, there is so really poor judgment and behavior that some younger players exhibit. It's not the norm is all I'm saying. I guess you could say the same about Pickford lol. There just doesn't seem to be any consequences there, whereas you're risking quite a bit in the NFL.

I think youíre being a bit naive there to think that elite sport in America is so squeaky clean but Iíll take your word for it from your own experience.



 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 03:41:33 AM
I think youíre being a bit naive there to think that elite sport in America is so squeaky clean but Iíll take your word for it from your own experience.

Well I'm not saying it's squeaky clean, just that it's not "common" and mostly related to the NFL when it's not. You never ever hear or see anything about baseball or hockey players in any sort of untoward situations, at least not anymore. The '80s were an entirely different time and it's a wonder some of them made it to the games at all.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on December 24, 2019, 03:43:53 AM
Footballers in "having a life outside of football" shocker.

Footy players are allowed a life outside of football... But that life has to always reflect their profession.

Go play golf, have the lads round for FIFA or poker, hell go to a darts match... Just don't get shit faced, stand on tables and act the big I am because you're doing something that will negatively effect performance.  Even if that negative effect is only in training, because training is part of getting you physically and mentally prepared for the next match.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 24, 2019, 03:44:28 AM
Well I'm not saying it's squeaky clean, just that it's not "common" and mostly related to the NFL when it's not. You never ever hear or see anything about baseball or hockey players in any sort of untoward situations, at least not anymore. The '80s were an entirely different time and it's a wonder some of them made it to the games at all.

I could tell you stories about a number of International rugby players (not just Welsh ones) that would make your eyes pop out in that respect. But I wont
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 03:46:54 AM
I could tell you stories about a number of International rugby players (not just Welsh ones) that would make your eyes pop out in that respect. But I wont

Literally, I can only imagine. I feel like I can simply look at rugby players and automatically know those stories lol
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on December 24, 2019, 03:52:16 AM
You'd never see a top class professional doing the same during the season.

https://twitter.com/FCBayernEN/status/1043461625792155648
Title: Pickford
Post by: blargins on December 24, 2019, 04:05:30 AM
Are you American? Not being snarky at all, just wondering how much U.S. sports coverage you're exposed to.

I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, of course there are, but the governing bodies of these sports have zero-tolerance policies and the NFL & MLB specifically have something known as "conduct unbecoming" that's hardwired into player contracts. Now maybe because of this their athletes have gotten much better at hiding it, but it's very different here. There's so much money at stake, etc. It's why the penalties are typically swift, harsh, and on occasion, season-ending (not frequently).
Unless you're a complete scumbag called Michael Vick and get named Pro Bowl captain for 2020 despite killing and torturing dogs for fun.

Or other scumbag players who beat their wives or girlfriends and get nominal suspensions and yet a guy kneels at a tune and a bit of cloth loses his livelihood for the past two years.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 04:10:54 AM
Unless you're a complete scumbag called Michael Vick and get named Pro Bowl captain for 2020 despite killing and torturing dogs for fun.

Or other scumbag players who beat their wives or girlfriends and get nominal suspensions and yet a guy kneels at a tune and a bit of cloth loses his livelihood for the past two years.

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Don't even get me started. I'm still busy burning my Nikes in a garbage can outside :D
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on December 24, 2019, 04:39:06 AM
I could tell you stories about a number of International rugby players (not just Welsh ones) that would make your eyes pop out in that respect. But I wont

Rugby is changing too tho. Guys take care of themselves better. The more money the more important to be in top physical shape for major contracts etc
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 24, 2019, 04:47:26 AM
Rugby is changing too tho. Guys take care of themselves better. The more money the more important to be in top physical shape for major contracts etc

True - although as Iíve said above youíd be surprised at what goes on still
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on December 24, 2019, 04:57:15 AM
I could tell you stories about a number of International rugby players (not just Welsh ones) that would make your eyes pop out in that respect. But I wont
We need some of these stories with the names redacted

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on December 24, 2019, 05:05:41 AM
We need some of these stories with the names redacted

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I may drop one or two of these stories in the not too distant
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 24, 2019, 03:29:49 PM
Not arsed but spent like seven pages giving it the bifftas. I canít even imagine how intense you are when youíre arsed about something. High maintenance.

I get more frustrated by the debate than anything heís actually done. Being pissed at the darts isnít very professional. Iím just amazed thatís a point we are debating. Sure the manager will tell him that too.
Much more bothered that heís not really that good
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on December 24, 2019, 03:54:30 PM
Heís still Englandís first choice and so far I think heís been better this season than he was at this stage last season.

Pickford should be well down the list of our priorities to replace IMO.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 24, 2019, 07:36:09 PM
He's still England's first choice and so far I think he's been better this season than he was at this stage last season.

Pickford should be well down the list of our priorities to replace IMO.
It's a difficult one, my view is that where he is so erratic it creates fear in our defence, he is up near the top in the league with being the worst at commanding his area, but he is a great shot stopper. I suppose you'll never get a keeper that's perfect, but I don't think it's any coincidence that people score so many against us from set plays, I don't actually think the defenders are that bad, but it's easy pickings when you're keeper is rooted to the line. I think he's very, very lucky to retain his place in the England squad and if his distribution wasn't significantly better than those around him then I don't think he'd keep it. There are bigger issues in the squad, but at the same time I'd be happy if we did trade him in

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 24, 2019, 07:41:48 PM
It's a difficult one, my view is that where he is so erratic it creates fear in our defence, he is up near the top in the league with being the worst at commanding his area, but he is a great shot stopper. I suppose you'll never get a keeper that's perfect, but I don't think it's any coincidence that people score so many against us from set plays, I don't actually think the defenders are that bad, but it's easy pickings when you're keeper is rooted to the line. I think he's very, very lucky to retain his place in the England squad and if his distribution wasn't significantly better than those around him then I don't think he'd keep it. There are bigger issues in the squad, but at the same time I'd be happy if we did trade him in

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4th most goals conceded. 12th most saves. 61% save rate based on shots on target. To put that in perspective, Watford, Villa, and Norwich's keepers are all doing better, with far more shots faced.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 24, 2019, 07:44:04 PM
4th most goals conceded. 12th most saves. 61% save rate based on shots on target. To put that in perspective, Watford, Villa, and Norwich's keepers are all doing better, with far more shots faced.
But there is no reference to quality of shots, so it's not really a true account as to where he stands, although probably isn't far off

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Thornton_19 on December 24, 2019, 07:45:40 PM
4th most goals conceded. 12th most saves. 61% save rate based on shots on target. To put that in perspective, Watford, Villa, and Norwich's keepers are all doing better, with far more shots faced.
Its not as black and white as that though is it. If Pickford is facing better quality shots than his counterparts elsewhere of course his percentage will be lower. If Villas keeper is facing 9 shots a game from distance its easier to have a better save percentage as an example.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 24, 2019, 07:47:21 PM
Here we go again.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on December 24, 2019, 07:52:28 PM
Careful all Bob's on the warpath !
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Free Agent on December 24, 2019, 07:53:24 PM
The fear in the defense isnít Pickford... itís Keane. Fucking literally oozes fear that lad
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on December 24, 2019, 07:58:13 PM
The fear in the defense isn't Pickford... it's Keane. Fucking literally oozes fear that lad
Why do we still look shit scared when he isn't in the team, what's the consistent thing in all this?
I'm not saying Keane is decent as he's clearly not btw

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on December 24, 2019, 10:28:30 PM
Why do we still look shit scared when he isn't in the team, what's the consistent thing in all this?
I'm not saying Keane is decent as he's clearly not btw

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PTSD.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueForYou on December 24, 2019, 10:50:51 PM
Lessons in throwing

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on December 29, 2019, 12:28:51 AM
Should down a pint every week
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on December 29, 2019, 12:29:49 AM
Redeemed himself from last year. Made some decent saves today.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 29, 2019, 12:36:56 AM
Heís playing for manager whoís not arsed about changing keepers it would seem.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on December 29, 2019, 01:02:41 AM
Bet he enjoyed that one


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on December 29, 2019, 01:41:43 AM
Very impressed with how dominant he was in the air coming and claiming balls into the box. A crossing sides worst nightmare that, a keeper who makes it his own.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 29, 2019, 01:59:44 AM
Very impressed with how dominant he was in the air coming and claiming balls into the box. A crossing sides worst nightmare that, a keeper who makes it his own.

Noticed the same thing. I bet he doubled his high claims on the year in today's game alone.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on December 29, 2019, 02:08:09 AM
Saw in one of those Napoli vids that Ancelotti dropped his ball playing GK (Reina I think) for a goalie that claims/clears in a dominant fashion.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on December 29, 2019, 02:12:35 AM
Saw in one of those Napoli vids that Ancelotti dropped his ball playing GK (Reina I think) for a goalie that claims/clears in a dominant fashion.

Who knows, maybe after seeing Pope claim 42,000 balls on Thursday, they could've had the GK coach work with JP on that & positioning all day yesterday. I feel giddy at what this new staff might get out of our players. I should probably deep breathe into a paper bag or something.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on December 29, 2019, 02:18:19 AM
Thought has handling was very good today
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on December 29, 2019, 03:55:13 AM
Mature performance and learnt a lot from his last game at St James Park. Well done.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on December 29, 2019, 03:43:24 PM
Been good recently. Not had loads to do but has looked much more composed and so much more aggressive on crosses
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on December 29, 2019, 03:55:10 PM
If he continues commanding the area like he did at Newcastle and elevates his quick distribution back to his best - we'll all be saying how amazing he is and more than just a 'shot-stopper'.

Never thought he was a confidence player - thought he had bags of it anyway - but I think collecting those crosses against the likes of Carroll really did give him a boost.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on December 29, 2019, 04:41:48 PM
We might have to send him out on the ale more often. :cheers:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on December 29, 2019, 06:01:24 PM
His head surely didn't wobble after that lot tallied this year.  We all fuck up, he seems to have learned the right lesson, which is the important part.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on December 29, 2019, 08:20:57 PM
Can't remember who has the shot but he made a hell of a save from an absolute power driver at one point.

Stream commentator said it was a 'for the camera save' though, the bellend.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on December 29, 2019, 08:23:25 PM
Can't remember who has the shot but he made a hell of a save from an absolute power driver at one point.

Stream commentator said it was a 'for the camera save' though, the bellend.

He got much better credit on NBCSN, it was a really solid left-handed quasi-punch that came from an awkward position.  Pickford got it spot-on.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 30, 2019, 03:22:47 AM
Can't remember who has the shot but he made a hell of a save from an absolute power driver at one point.

Stream commentator said it was a 'for the camera save' though, the bellend.

Fabian Schšr
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on December 30, 2019, 03:34:41 AM
Fabian Schšr

Pascal GroŖ
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on December 30, 2019, 03:39:44 AM
Pascal GroŖ

Gylfi řůr Sigurūsson
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bally on December 30, 2019, 05:38:03 AM
Can't remember who has the shot but he made a hell of a save from an absolute power driver at one point.

Stream commentator said it was a 'for the camera save' though, the bellend.
Yeah the other commentator said "you've never played in goal have you(sneering chortle), it was good save"

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on January 03, 2020, 07:27:32 AM
Think I'd sell him. Few too many goals conceded that shouldn't be imo over an extended period of time.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kramer0 on January 03, 2020, 07:51:31 AM
Think I'd sell him. Few too many goals conceded that shouldn't be imo over an extended period of time.

Who's buying at this point?

Keepers tend to peak later than outfield players. I think the raw materials are there if we find the right coach to work with him.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on January 03, 2020, 07:53:51 AM
Who's buying at this point?

Keepers tend to peak later than outfield players. I think the raw materials are there if we find the right coach to work with him.

Not in Jan like, probably next summer, but I'm starting to doubt if he's quite there mentally to maximise his talent and cut out needless errors/goals he should stop. If there were takers at a good price, I think we could do better.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ramjam on January 03, 2020, 07:55:47 AM
Iíd sell him as well while heís Englandís number 1, get as much as possible before he loses that shirt. I think Pope is a better keeper


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on January 03, 2020, 12:41:39 PM
Not in Jan like, probably next summer, but I'm starting to doubt if he's quite there mentally to maximise his talent and cut out needless errors/goals he should stop. If there were takers at a good price, I think we could do better.

Likely to be controversial, but along with his concentration levels and sometimes poor handling, I think his other issue is that he really is a bit short for a modern keeper in the Premier League, coming in at 6'1'' (at most).  And it is not like he has long arms that make up for his lack of height.

I know Courtois was widely ridiculed when he made a similar comment following the first England/Belgium game of the World Cup, but I think he had a point, as Pickford frequently struggles to save shots from distance and control his box.  Thus far this season he has the third worst save percentage of all prem keepers that have played half their team's minutes, and he's well below the average in punches and, especially, high balls claimed.  (I am aware that not all shots on goal are equal and that, due to different tactics, keepers can face more or less difficult shots on average over the course of a season.)

Most starting keepers in the prem are 6'3'' at least (as far as I am aware, Pickford is the shortest starting keeper), and Pickford lacks the incredible leaping ability, aggression, handling, and reaction times of the likes of other 6'1'' keepers like Navas and Casillas, which permitted them to make up for their own lack of height.  (And its probably no coincidence that they both excelled in less physical leagues.)

Gazzaniga - 6'5''
Schmeichel - 6'4''
De Gea - 6'4''
Foster - 6'4''
Krul - 6'3''
Alisson - 6'3''
Leto - 6'3''
Pope - 6'3''
Lloris - 6'2''
Ederson - 6'2''
Kepa - 6'2''
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on January 03, 2020, 01:09:47 PM
Here we fucking go, again.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on January 03, 2020, 02:25:02 PM
Here we fucking go, again.

Not sure who thatís meant for but itís not an opinion Iíve ever expressed before, mate. Often been a staunch defender of his.

Iím allowing my opinion to change according to the available evidence (as I see it), rather than remaining steadfast in a fixed opinion, regardless of what happens in matches, which I generally think is a good thing. Would you not agree?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Cereal Killer on January 03, 2020, 02:44:12 PM
 :Horse:

Iíll summarise the next 4 pages:

ďWho will we get thatís better?Ē

ďSome German keeper, theyíre greatĒ

ďKarius was amazing for sureĒ

ďSo name an actual better keeper we can getĒ

ďItís not my job to find players, thatís what Brands should be doingĒ

ď*insert some random youngster whoís decent on FM that may become good in 5 years or who may also be shit in the PL*Ē
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on January 03, 2020, 02:54:45 PM
His distribution is fantastic, can't deny that. His goalkeeping leaves a lot to be desired though.
He's still very young for a keeper so I'm not too concerned, I'm sure hell become a very good keeper. I haven't seen anything that makes me think he'll be a keeper that the biggest clubs will ever want.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on January 03, 2020, 02:58:05 PM
:Horse:

Iíll summarise the next 4 pages:

ďWho will we get thatís better?Ē

ďSome German keeper, theyíre greatĒ

ďKarius was amazing for sureĒ

ďSo name an actual better keeper we can getĒ

ďItís not my job to find players, thatís what Brands should be doingĒ

ď*insert some random youngster whoís decent on FM that may become good in 5 years or who may also be shit in the PL*Ē

We have a good relationship with Raiola, our manager is an Italian legend and Donnarumma only has 1 year left on his contract after the end of the season. I think he would be an upgrade.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 03, 2020, 03:02:51 PM
Think itís fair to say he needs to improve in certain aspects of his game. 

Looks to have the intelligence of a Ross Barkley though so Iím not sure the mental application may be there to take his game to another level.

Would love to be proved wrong. Much better to develop our players into what we need rather than go out and blow big money on another gamble.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on January 03, 2020, 03:07:58 PM
Thought heíd looked a bit better the past few games tbh.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on January 03, 2020, 03:08:01 PM
Think itís fair to say he needs to improve in certain aspects of his game. 

Looks to have the intelligence of a Ross Barkley though so Iím not sure the mental application may be there to take his game to another level.

Would love to be proved wrong. Much better to develop our players into what we need rather than go out and blow big money on another gamble.

Good thing is, I'd imagine you'd at least get your money back with Pickford or even make a profit (if we did decide to sell).

For what it's worth, I also don't think the club will sell him. Just saying that I would.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 03, 2020, 03:08:32 PM
The point is you could sell pickford and replace him someone cheap but a safe pair of hands. Not him but someone like  a slightly younger Ben foster and currently our team wouldn't be much worse off if at all.

However let's say we looked to buy a forward and would spend tosun money pre a pickford sale on them, we would get a lot more uplift in the team performances with the difference between him and top forward than pickford and another goalkeeper.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Goaljira on January 03, 2020, 03:09:22 PM
His distribution hasn't been anywhere close to great this year.  His quick punts up field when he really should just slow the game down to let us get set again have been annoying far more times than theyve been effective.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on January 03, 2020, 03:15:58 PM
Not sure who thatís meant for but itís not an opinion Iíve ever expressed before, mate. Often been a staunch defender of his.

Iím allowing my opinion to change according to the available evidence (as I see it), rather than remaining steadfast in a fixed opinion, regardless of what happens in matches, which I generally think is a good thing. Would you not agree?

It was to do with his height mate, and the ridiculous "short arms" nonsense. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, even if you are wrong.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 03, 2020, 03:17:38 PM
I think a top keeper saves that man city goal that pickford got a strong hand to.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on January 03, 2020, 03:22:27 PM
I think a top keeper saves that man city goal that pickford got a strong hand to.

This ridiculous notion that 'keepers should never concede at their near post is a complete farce, mostly peddled by individuals that have never played in the position. The reality is it was an extremely good finish hit at such ferocity that only a truly world class save would stop it. That goes in 99% of the time.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 03, 2020, 03:30:32 PM
This ridiculous notion that 'keepers should never concede at their near post is a complete farce, mostly peddled by individuals that have never played in the position. The reality is it was an extremely good finish hit at such ferocity that only a truly world class save would stop it. That goes in 99% of the time.
I was talking about Jesus's first goal.....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on January 03, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
I was talking about Jesus's first goal.....

Indeed you were, apologies. I'm annoyed with the 'near post brigade' on Twitter.

I think he did well to get a hand to it to be honest, was another excellent finisher. Again, if he pulls it off we're saying it's a world class save.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 03, 2020, 03:36:57 PM
Should save the first City goal
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueNoseMike on January 03, 2020, 03:44:24 PM
Should save the first City goal

Nonsense. Could, maybe. If he saves that it goes down as a fantastic save. Meaning it doesnt get saved more than it does
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 03, 2020, 03:46:38 PM
The main weakness for Pickford is his maturity and overall mentality.  If / once that develops he'll be top class, it's just going to take a while to get there because his ability far outstrips that side of things.

I also think there's a big issue with perception because most people haven't been goalies and so don't understand sometimes that what they think is a mistake is actually not.  There's been plenty of times I've seen people complain about his pushing a shot in to the path of a striker, when in fact he did well just to keep it out and there wasn't a way to move the ball to safety as part of the save.

He's part of a young and up coming crop of youngsters we need to keep together and develop in to a formidable team.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 03, 2020, 03:53:56 PM
Nonsense. Could, maybe. If he saves that it goes down as a fantastic save. Meaning it doesnt get saved more than it does

Nah, his positioning was all wrong, a better keeper saves it all day long.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on January 03, 2020, 03:54:58 PM
Indeed you were, apologies. I'm annoyed with the 'near post brigade' on Twitter.

I think he did well to get a hand to it to be honest, was another excellent finisher. Again, if he pulls it off we're saying it's a world class save.

Nah, he's 100% got to save that, once he gets to it. Wasn't hit powerfully or in the corner.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 03, 2020, 03:55:37 PM
Pickfords form under silva can rightly be questioned.  However silva wasnt the greatest of defensive coaches,  a very lack lustre personality.  A fucking wet lettuce of a person in my reading of him. Lets see how pickford developes again under a more dominant, positive coach in ancelotti.  Would love to see pickfords stats pre and post silva. And he most certainly cant be blamed for any goals against city

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 03, 2020, 03:57:28 PM
He done well to get a semi decent hand on that mac,  was unlucky there
Should save the first City goal

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 03, 2020, 04:11:08 PM
He done well to get a semi decent hand on that mac,  was unlucky there
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Agree to disagree fella, a better keeper saves that in my opinion, positioning was all wrong
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: van der Meyde on January 03, 2020, 04:12:45 PM
Good thing is, I'd imagine you'd at least get your money back with Pickford or even make a profit (if we did decide to sell).

For what it's worth, I also don't think the club will sell him. Just saying that I would.
Not sure I see any clubs out there willing to pay over £30m for him myself. It's a transfer record breaking fee for half the clubs in the league.

Chelsea and Arsenal probably wouldn't look to him. Newcastle definitely wouldn't. West Ham already have a better keeper in Fabianski.

Out of the daft clubs out there, we'd probably be relying on Bournemouth and maybe Bournemouth alone to sign him, imo.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 03, 2020, 04:35:23 PM
Agree to disagree fella, a better keeper saves that in my opinion, positioning was all wrong

Just like getting beat at his near post twice during that game, lucky Jesus hit the post with his second effort
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 03, 2020, 04:45:41 PM
Has a rather garbage save % this year but the chances we concede are typically good ones so you'd think there's a correlation there.

I still think he's basically not the issue, he's a talented player who's fine for this level and could be even better, if there was a chance to sell him to someone daft and rich I'd probably take it as we wouldn't lose a great deal and we'd have some upside in squad building.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on January 03, 2020, 04:48:30 PM
Am not about to give up on a 24 year old goalie, we could go through everyone of the top goalies in the premier league, Alison, De Gea, Fabianski, Leno etc. and say ďhe should of saved thatĒ it means very little.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 03, 2020, 04:56:04 PM
Am not about to give up on a 24 year old goalie, we could go through everyone of the top goalies in the premier league, Alison, De Gea, Fabianski, Leno etc. and say "he should of saved thatĒ it means very little.
That's fair enough, although being pedantic he's nearly 26!!
I just think he made a reputation off of his distribution and people hoped his keeping would develop accordingly, I personally don't think it has much. He's really indecisive and at times frustrating, I do think he could be improved upon pretty easily, but we do have more pressing areas

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 03, 2020, 04:56:55 PM
Judging by this,  we should have got rid of big nev before his late ish twenties.  Especially before 84 when he was more ir less useless
Am not about to give up on a 24 year old goalie, we could go through everyone of the top goalies in the premier league, Alison, De Gea, Fabianski, Leno etc. and say "he should of saved thatĒ it means very little.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 03, 2020, 05:08:05 PM
Judging by this,  we should have got rid of big nev before his late ish twenties.  Especially before 84 when he was more ir less useless
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But that's a judgment call isn't it and where the manager and coaching team come into their own.
The reverse could also be said about lots of players we kept hold of to long hoping they would turn into the new Nev, but stayed more Richard Wright, its how much confidence and belief they have in them I suppose

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 03, 2020, 05:13:14 PM
Indeed you were, apologies. I'm annoyed with the 'near post brigade' on Twitter.

I think he did well to get a hand to it to be honest, was another excellent finisher. Again, if he pulls it off we're saying it's a world class save.

That was a superb finish.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 03, 2020, 05:31:56 PM
Ive spoke with big nev a few times,  about him being the target of the boo boys,  and where it began to work. This guy went on to be the best in the world in his position,  and imo the best ever. But he didnt get any consistency till he was 26/27. Hes said he would probably struggle more now with the speed of the game and ball and skill sets of the opposition players.  Remember,  pickford has been englands number 1 since he was 22, and still has loads and loads to learn.  A big personality coach will bring him on in leaps and bounds.  Obviously IMO
But that's a judgment call isn't it and where the manager and coaching team come into their own.
The reverse could also be said about lots of players we kept hold of to long hoping they would turn into the new Nev, but stayed more Richard Wright, its how much confidence and belief they have in them I suppose

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on January 03, 2020, 05:37:41 PM
Ive spoke with big nev a few times,  about him being the target of the boo boys,  and where it began to work. This guy went on to be the best in the world in his position,  and imo the best ever. But he didnt get any consistency till he was 26/27. Hes said he would probably struggle more now with the speed of the game and ball and skill sets of the opposition players.  Remember,  pickford has been englands number 1 since he was 22, and still has loads and loads to learn.  A big personality coach will bring him on in leaps and bounds.  Obviously IMO
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Has Carlo brought in his GK coach yet ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 03, 2020, 05:50:33 PM
Dunno esc,  but probably needs to
Has Carlo brought in his GK coach yet ?

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 03, 2020, 06:27:30 PM
Has Carlo brought in his GK coach yet ?

Last I heard was that we were retaining Alan Kelly.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on January 03, 2020, 07:44:41 PM
It was to do with his height mate, and the ridiculous "short arms" nonsense. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, even if you are wrong.
A keeper's height and reach are relevant--there is a reason the average keeper clocks in at 6'3'' while the average field player comes in at under 6'0''.  Short keepers need to make up for their limited reach in other ways, whether it be through faster reaction times, terrific footwork, a great vertical leap, excellent positioning, etc.  Pickford does so to a degree:  he is excels in 1v1 situations and with penalties, and, on his day, with his distribution.  But, currently, I don't think those positives compensate for his inability to dominate his box and reach certain shots from the top of 18 that the average keeper in the league almost certainly saves.  I do hope he improves, and was previously a big fan, but based on the eye test and looking objectively at the numbers over the last three seasons, he is far from a top 10 keeper in the prem.

It is odd to me that comments regarding a keeper's height provoke such outrage.  People don't hesitate to raise similar concerns regarding sub 6' center backs, as they recognize that their ability to dominate in the air correlates to their height and is frequently crucial to the position.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on January 03, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
This ridiculous notion that 'keepers should never concede at their near post is a complete farce, mostly peddled by individuals that have never played in the position. The reality is it was an extremely good finish hit at such ferocity that only a truly world class save would stop it. That goes in 99% of the time.
For what it is worth, I fully agree with you on this point.  A keeper that is never giving up near post goals is almost certainly leaving the far post too open.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 03, 2020, 07:54:55 PM
Thought heíd looked a bit better the past few games tbh.

Well Burnley didn't have a single shot on target so he deffo was great in that one 😉

I've been hyper-critical of Pickford, often, but I try to give credit where it's due as well. IMO he's having a poor season. He's cost us more points than he's protected. But he has been better lately; I seem to be one of very few who thought he was good against City.

But I do still think selling him is smart, purely from a business/need to move forward perspective. He DOES have value, which means we can easily make a tidy profit on a fee, and it would get his high wages off the books. We may take a slight hit in flashy goalkeeper saves but get an uptick in consistency in match-by-match play. I only think this way because I've been of the opinion that we should be able to a replacement who can do virtually the same job for less money is all.

And then we can use that money elsewhere for more pressing needs.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on January 03, 2020, 10:46:27 PM
Well Burnley didn't have a single shot on target so he deffo was great in that one 😉

I've been hyper-critical of Pickford, often, but I try to give credit where it's due as well. IMO he's having a poor season. He's cost us more points than he's protected. But he has been better lately; I seem to be one of very few who thought he was good against City.

But I do still think selling him is smart, purely from a business/need to move forward perspective. He DOES have value, which means we can easily make a tidy profit on a fee, and it would get his high wages off the books. We may take a slight hit in flashy goalkeeper saves but get an uptick in consistency in match-by-match play. I only think this way because I've been of the opinion that we should be able to a replacement who can do virtually the same job for less money is all.

And then we can use that money elsewhere for more pressing needs.

I was commenting more on his apparent so-so attitude or whatever people are calling it.

Since I started watching footy itís been said that keepers improve late twenties, so for all weíve invested l in him in time and money we could be selling him moments before he hits his ďmaturityĒ and we could reap the rewards.

Genuinely, hand on heart, think you should stick with a keeper if the core skills are there and have a couple of aspects they excel at.

Patience will win this one I feel, itís just of weíve got the minerals to give him that bit of extra time.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toffee Tuesdays on January 04, 2020, 12:05:55 AM
I was commenting more on his apparent so-so attitude or whatever people are calling it.

Since I started watching footy itís been said that keepers improve late twenties, so for all weíve invested l in him in time and money we could be selling him moments before he hits his ďmaturityĒ and we could reap the rewards.

Genuinely, hand on heart, think you should stick with a keeper if the core skills are there and have a couple of aspects they excel at.

Patience will win this one I feel, itís just of weíve got the minerals to give him that bit of extra time.

Fair point, I remember De Gea making a number of very noticeable mistakes in his first couple years at United
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on January 04, 2020, 12:33:08 AM
Fair point, I remember De Gea making a number of very noticeable mistakes in his first couple years at United
Heís still making them, and had an awful run of form last season.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 04, 2020, 12:38:23 AM
His distribution has been terrible for a while now. Infuriates me the amount if times his kicks go out for a throw in, especially having someone as good in the air as Calvert-Lewin as a focal point.

His shot stopping is patchy. Lets in some soft goals but also makes some outrageous saves.

He's young so can improve, but he has been known to be erratic. Pros and cons.

It's not a position that we need addressing urgently, but I'm definitely not made up to have him in goal like I used to be.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 04, 2020, 12:43:40 AM
He was making them last week
Fair point, I remember De Gea making a number of very noticeable mistakes in his first couple years at United

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 04, 2020, 12:44:02 AM
I wouldn't say he's significantly improved or regressed in the three years he's been here.
The mitigating circumstances are that he hasn't played under a decent manager, until the last 3 games, or behind a settled defence for more than about six months.

In a more competitive and dominant team his ability to produce spectacular saves and his strength at one on one situations may translate into more points and a greater appreciation of his worth.

However, the all action, 'front foot' style of 'keeper is rare at the very top and something I always associate with the likes of Paul Cooper, Andy Goram and Shay Given. Good enough to make a career in the top flight but never considered elite level. Spurs have a similar situation with Lloris.

We should be sticking with Pickford for now but not rule out the possibility we can improve upon what we have.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 04, 2020, 01:12:18 AM
His distribution has been terrible for a while now. Infuriates me the amount if times his kicks go out for a throw in, especially having someone as good in the air as Calvert-Lewin as a focal point.

His shot stopping is patchy. Lets in some soft goals but also makes some outrageous saves.

He's young so can improve, but he has been known to be erratic. Pros and cons.

It's not a position that we need addressing urgently, but I'm definitely not made up to have him in goal like I used to be.

His distribution is excellent imo.

Got to remember heís a goalkeeper so when he plays a crossfield pass heís going to mess it up on occasion.

Feel like people focus on that instead of the times he gets it right which is more often than not.

I mean, we can say his distribution is terrible but itís light years ahead of anyone weíve seen for the last 30 years. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 04, 2020, 01:16:18 AM
His distribution is excellent imo.

Got to remember he's a goalkeeper so when he plays a crossfield pass he's going to mess it up on occasion.

Feel like people focus on that instead of the times he gets it right which is more often than not.

I mean, we can say his distribution is terrible but it's light years ahead of anyone we've seen for the last 30 years.
Have to disagree with you on that one. Keeping the ball on the pitch is the easy part. It's just kicking straight. Yes he has a massive kick and it is a weapon when he gets it right, but it's very inconsistent.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 04, 2020, 01:31:56 AM
Have to disagree with you on that one. Keeping the ball on the pitch is the easy part. It's just kicking straight. Yes he has a massive kick and it is a weapon when he gets it right, but it's very inconsistent.

But heís being asked to play the difficult passes because managers know he has the technical ability to do so.

So youíre seeing him play the ball out of play a lot more than youíre used to because weíve had keepers like Tim Howard who just punted the ball straight up the pitch.

Even Allison and ederson will boot the ball into touch on at least one occasion per match.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on January 04, 2020, 02:44:21 PM
If you pay world class money you expect world class saves.

Same accusations about Siggurdson. Good player but not doing nearly enough.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on January 04, 2020, 02:59:02 PM
He totally delivers world class saves btw.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on January 04, 2020, 03:28:15 PM
Not in Jan like, probably next summer, but I'm starting to doubt if he's quite there mentally to maximise his talent and cut out needless errors/goals he should stop. If there were takers at a good price, I think we could do better.

His return to Newcastle was far more mature so he's capable of learning and growing. Or maybe he was too hung over from the darts to kick up much of a fuss.....?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on January 04, 2020, 03:41:20 PM
Have to disagree with you on that one. Keeping the ball on the pitch is the easy part. It's just kicking straight. Yes he has a massive kick and it is a weapon when he gets it right, but it's very inconsistent.

Let's not forget the length of time these kicks are in the air.

We criticise midfielders for the easy 5-yard passes instead of something more ambitious.
Commentators cream themselves over passes that go the width of the pitch.

How much longer is it in the air when you're passing three quarters of the length of the pitch. The opposition are allowed to compete for the ball as well, you know.

These kicks are probably the highest risk passes, in terms of losing possession, in the entire game. Sometimes it's still a good pass but the opposition have done more than our own players have to get on the end of it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on January 04, 2020, 06:44:23 PM
Pickford is the least of our problems.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 04, 2020, 08:57:51 PM
Let's not forget the length of time these kicks are in the air.

We criticise midfielders for the easy 5-yard passes instead of something more ambitious.
Commentators cream themselves over passes that go the width of the pitch.

How much longer is it in the air when you're passing three quarters of the length of the pitch. The opposition are allowed to compete for the ball as well, you know.

These kicks are probably the highest risk passes, in terms of losing possession, in the entire game. Sometimes it's still a good pass but the opposition have done more than our own players have to get on the end of it.

Yeah his distribution is good... You only have to look at when Emery tried to get Chech to play out from the back to see a keeper with poor distribution, every time he had it the opposition genuinely believed they'd get it and have a chance to score.

Because Pickford tries what is in reality crazy long passes the completion rate will always be iffy, but at no point would you ever worry about him being dispossessed or regularly topping it directly to an opposition player 30 yards out.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Old England Toffee on January 04, 2020, 10:04:46 PM
Pickford is the least of our problems.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 05, 2020, 12:50:12 AM
Think heís played well recently. Nothing spectacular but heís looked solid, better on crosses too. Much more composed in recent times
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 06, 2020, 03:04:47 PM
Surprised with the memes apparently going around about Pickford and his t-rex arms etc hasn't been reflected in criticism of him on here, but just in case anyone wants to trot out the bigger keeper would have saved it argument here's my perspective as a former keeper.

Pickford was about an inch or two away from it, so it's easy to say if he was an inch or 3 taller her have saved it.  However his leap / spring was huge and more than made up for that difference.  Yes in an ideal world a 6,3" keeper with that same spring saves it, but taller keepers tend to have less agility, so it's quite possible a taller keeper still doesn't save it.

I know no one on here has blamed him for the goal yet, but just in case anyone is thinking it I'm not convinced that's the case, it was just a perfectly placed shot.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lazarou on January 06, 2020, 03:15:12 PM
Surprised with the memes apparently going around about Pickford and his t-rex arms etc hasn't been reflected in criticism of him on here, but just in case anyone wants to trot out the bigger keeper would have saved it argument here's my perspective as a former keeper.

Pickford was about an inch or two away from it, so it's easy to say if he was an inch or 3 taller her have saved it.  However his leap / spring was huge and more than made up for that difference.  Yes in an ideal world a 6,3" keeper with that same spring saves it, but taller keepers tend to have less agility, so it's quite possible a taller keeper still doesn't save it.

I know no one on here has blamed him for the goal yet, but just in case anyone is thinking it I'm not convinced that's the case, it was just a perfectly placed shot.

Agree, it was a great goal, only could have been prevented by the outfield players.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 06, 2020, 03:16:39 PM
Felt sorry for him last night.

The amount of shithouse passes back to him he had to deal with was untold. All to his right foot as well.

What chance does he have to distribute the ball effectively when heís constantly getting half volleys to deal with.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on January 06, 2020, 03:19:43 PM
Dealt with everything asked of him well, including some horrendous backpasses. Our players don't seem to realise that the weight and the angle of a pass fucking matters, and the idea is to make it as easy for the person you're passing to as possible. Useless cunts.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lazarou on January 06, 2020, 03:20:30 PM
Felt sorry for him last night.

The amount of shithouse passes back to him he had to deal with was untold. All to his right foot as well.

What chance does he have to distribute the ball effectively when heís constantly getting half volleys to deal with.

Good point what is it with the passes to his right foot? Fucking basics knowing which is your keepers strongest foot.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 06, 2020, 04:14:34 PM
If Pickford was taller he doesn't get down and make the worldie save with his fingertips and tip it round the post from one of their kids.

He's not amazing, he's not shite, he'll cost us goals and save us a lot more, like most goalkeeper really.

You don't make changing your goalkeeper a priority unless they are making mistakes most weeks, which he isn't. Have a look at the defenders and central midfielders in front of him first.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on January 06, 2020, 04:21:40 PM
I'm not his biggest fan but I appreciate he has some good attributes. His distribution is up there with the best in the league, his reflexes are great and he's like a little acrobat sometimes, but I just question his attitude sometimes (as I do with 90% of the squad at the minute tbf). He just seems quite petulant and I don't think he actually cares too much if he concedes a goal, I'm yet to be convinced he's a team player.

It's a strange one because he's a perfect fit for some clubs and I can see why some clubs would pay £40m maybe even £50m for him. All that said, I wouldn't be sad to see him go for either of them figures.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Goaljira on January 06, 2020, 04:25:16 PM
I'm not his biggest fan but I appreciate he has some good attributes. His distribution is up there with the best in the league, his reflexes are great and he's like a little acrobat sometimes, but I just question his attitude sometimes (as I do with 90% of the squad at the minute tbf). He just seems quite petulant and I don't think he actually cares too much if he concedes a goal, I'm yet to be convinced he's a team player.

It's a strange one because he's a perfect fit for some clubs and I can see why some clubs would pay £40m maybe even £50m for him. All that said, I wouldn't be sad to see him go for either of them figures.

I think we could get someone slightly lower in quality for a hell of a lot less cash, and then use the difference to buy players in other positions where our current options are abject.  Same goes with Richarlison and Digne.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on January 06, 2020, 04:34:13 PM
I think we could get someone slightly lower in quality for a hell of a lot less cash, and then use the difference to buy players in other positions where our current options are abject.  Same goes with Richarlison and Digne.

We've got money. The fuck would you intentionally buy a worse keeper?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on January 06, 2020, 04:46:31 PM
Yeh, he can fuck off. Heís been creeping up my shit list but still didnít think he was that much of an issue, but heís up there now. Canít concentrate for 90 mins. Wants to show off his supposed range of passing all the time. Those 20 yard chipped passes in the chest of a player thatís marked cause us so many problems. Heíll be gone within 2 summers unless Carlo can settle him down.

And heís a right scruffy little chavvy cunt.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Goaljira on January 06, 2020, 04:51:23 PM
We've got money. The fuck would you intentionally buy a worse keeper?

Because we've not got the money.  We can't keep losing money year on year to the extent we have in 2018/19 and will do again even worse in 2019/20.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Up The Toffees on January 06, 2020, 04:52:13 PM
He's not our problem. I don't think he's great but imagine rolling the ball out to the useless fuckers in front of him. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on January 06, 2020, 04:53:16 PM
We've got money. The fuck would you intentionally buy a worse keeper?

The article being released about our record losses would suggest that we need to start making some money from selling players or from European qualification, only 1 of them things looks likely at the minute.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 06, 2020, 05:00:29 PM
The article being released about our record losses would suggest that we need to start making some money from selling players or from European qualification, only 1 of them things looks likely at the minute.
European qualification, unless its the champions league is meaningless. Didn't we lose money the last time we were in the Europa?

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on January 06, 2020, 05:02:07 PM
European qualification, unless its the champions league is meaningless. Didn't we lose money the last time we were in the Europa?

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The article just says European qualification but may mean ECL.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 06, 2020, 05:03:01 PM
European qualification, unless its the champions league is meaningless. Didn't we lose money the last time we were in the Europa?

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I think the UEFA League is a bit more lucrative. It would certainly help on the income side, as would a few decent domestic cup runs but we all know they don't happen.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 06, 2020, 05:19:46 PM
Watched it again.

His techniques wrong so either our coach is bad or Pickford is hard to coach.

Have just found a tweet from Alan Kelly from 2017 talking about going with your top hand, so it's picks.

Most let that go in, top keeper maybe saves it, either way his technique is wrong.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on January 06, 2020, 06:08:50 PM
Because we've not got the money.  We can't keep losing money year on year to the extent we have in 2018/19 and will do again even worse in 2019/20.

Ok then. We've already spent it. It's gone. I'll ask you again - why the fuck would you intentionally buy a worse keeper?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 06, 2020, 06:10:40 PM
Watched it again.

His techniques wrong so either our coach is bad or Pickford is hard to coach.

Have just found a tweet from Alan Kelly from 2017 talking about going with your top hand, so it's picks.

Most let that go in, top keeper maybe saves it, either way his technique is wrong.
.

Sorry but you're 100% wrong... Went for it with the correct hand, what you said does apply in certain situations but not this one.

Wouldn't have got anywhere near it with his other hand as the ball wasn't going from far enough from left to right.

Hard to explain but as I used to be a keeper I know all about top hand saves for arcing shots... Completely the wrong situation to use the other hand this one.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 06, 2020, 06:14:36 PM
.

Sorry but you're 100% wrong... Went for it with the correct hand, what you said does apply in certain situations but not this one.

Wouldn't have got anywhere near it with his other hand as the ball wasn't going from far enough from left to right.

Hard to explain but as I used to be a keeper I know all about top hand saves for arcing shots... Completely the wrong situation to use the other hand this one.

Obviously I'm not a coach but going on what I've seen David Preece say - he has gone with the wrong hand.

If you watch it back he swipes with his top hand after it's last him almost as an oh shit maybe if I...

You can see I'm his body shape he's jumping to his left but has to bend his body the opposite direction, that's not the optimal shape for speed or distance physics wise, and leaves his closer hand trailing? Can't get my head around why that would be better.

What is it about dipping shots that means you should go with your bottom hand?

Like I say I'm only going off what I've seen others better informed saying, and I've no doubt you know more about this than me im just trying to understand.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 06, 2020, 06:20:10 PM
Obviously I'm not a coach but going on what I've seen David Preece say - he has gone with the wrong hand.

If you watch it back he swipes with his top hand after it's last him almost as an oh shit maybe if I...

You can see I'm his body shape he's jumping to his left but has to bend his body the opposite direction, that's not the optimal shape for speed or distance physics wise, and leaves his closer hand trailing? Can't get my head around why that would be better.

What is it about dipping shots that means you should go with your bottom hand?

Like I say I'm only going off what I've seen others better informed saying, and I've no doubt you know more about this than me im just trying to understand.

The jump Pickford makes is more up then across, so if he goes with his other hand he can't jump the same way or height, so he'd jump more sideways, be much lower and that hand get no where near.

Or he jumps as he has but uses the other hand which is further away from the ball and again gets no where near.

It just comes down to the angle the ball is coming in at... More across the keeper and it's a top hand, but as you'll see Pickford jumps more straight up the to the side.

Not sure if that helps as it's quite hard to explain Vai typing
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 06, 2020, 06:21:31 PM
The jump Pickford makes is more up then across, so if he goes with his other hand he can't jump the same way or height, so he'd jump more sideways, be much lower and that hand get no where near.

Or he jumps as he has but uses the other hand which is further away from the ball and again gets no where near.

It just comes down to the angle the ball is coming in at... More across the keeper and it's a top hand, but as you'll see Pickford jumps more straight up the to the side.

Not sure if that helps as it's quite hard to explain Vai typing

Definitely food for thought mate thanks
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Goaljira on January 06, 2020, 06:22:12 PM
Ok then. We've already spent it. It's gone. I'll ask you again - why the fuck would you intentionally buy a worse keeper?

Because an equivalent keeper would cost the same as you could sell Pickford for, else why wouldn't the team buying Pickford not just buy the alternative.  If you replace like for like then you gain nothing to improve anywhere else in the team.  An average goalkeeper and great midfielder to me would be more beneficial to the team than an above average keeper and an absolutely wank midfield.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 06, 2020, 06:24:09 PM
No blame for the goal. It would have been an amazing save

Heís been good recently. The save in the first half yesterday was great and heís looked composed though the last few games
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 06, 2020, 06:24:45 PM
It wasn't his technique at all..it was just one of those unreachable shots unfortunately..

you say you've watched it a couple of times..look at how close his hand actually is to the ball....just beaten by a good shot..
it was written...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on January 06, 2020, 06:33:25 PM
Obviously I'm not a coach but going on what I've seen David Preece say - he has gone with the wrong hand.

If you watch it back he swipes with his top hand after it's last him almost as an oh shit maybe if I...

You can see I'm his body shape he's jumping to his left but has to bend his body the opposite direction, that's not the optimal shape for speed or distance physics wise, and leaves his closer hand trailing? Can't get my head around why that would be better.

What is it about dipping shots that means you should go with your bottom hand?

Like I say I'm only going off what I've seen others better informed saying, and I've no doubt you know more about this than me im just trying to understand.

I'm sure he got stick last season when he let a goal in and went with his other hand, people said then he'd gone with the wrong one. Lad can't win really.

Not aimed at you but I think it's massively nit picking for anyone to say that he should have done better with the goal yesterday, everyone wants to find blame these days, most keepers would struggle to save a ball bent in off the crossbar near the top corner, sometimes you just have to say "that was a fucking great goal".
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 06, 2020, 06:40:13 PM
Definitely food for thought mate thanks

No worries, the whole top hand saves thing is actually one of those where it's actually pretty rare that's the best option, it's a specific angle, height etc where you can get closer with the alternative hand.  De Gea is absolutely fantastic at judging when to do this, I'm always in appreciation of a keeper when they judge that right as its something I was really good at myself when younger. 

I'm fully backing Pickford for which hand he went with, but understand it's incredibly hard to explain it without physically showing someone 😊
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 06, 2020, 06:41:59 PM
It wasn't his technique at all..it was just one of those unreachable shots unfortunately..

you say you've watched it a couple of times..look at how close his hand actually is to the ball....just beaten by a good shot..
it was written...

He actually flexes his fingers as it goes past as he's so convinced he's going to get his tips to it... Couldn't have got closer without saving it. His leap was immense but like you said it was just too perfectly placed to stop it
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on January 06, 2020, 06:43:07 PM
Because an equivalent keeper would cost the same as you could sell Pickford for, else why wouldn't the team buying Pickford not just buy the alternative.  If you replace like for like then you gain nothing to improve anywhere else in the team.  An average goalkeeper and great midfielder to me would be more beneficial to the team than an above average keeper and an absolutely wank midfield.

This is madness. You know that right?

The year we sold Lukaku for big bucks we got Wayne Rooney in as a cheap replacement. By January we were panic-buying Cenk Tosun. We also sold Ross Barkley and brought in Davy Klaasen.

Every transfer is a gamble because you have to take in so many factors. We have England's first choice keeper, who can play out from the back and has good distribution. Do you know how hard it is to find players for certain positions?

We could sell Pickford and buy Heaton and then he can't settle in the area, or hits a poor run of form or he fucks Ancelotti's daughter and gets dropped for the rest of the season.

How about selling Richarlison to get Deulofeu back? Or sell Bernard for Ryan Fraser?

Ok that last one was not such a strong example - because I am running out of Everton players who are any good. And you want to downgrade the areas we have some little quality in?

Why, why, why would you want our team any worse than it is already?

You have to go for upgrades every time or what is the fucking point?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: IPCannock on January 06, 2020, 06:45:12 PM
Was a belting goal. Lev Yashin, Gordon Banks and Peter Schmeichel weren't saving that between them.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: IPCannock on January 06, 2020, 06:48:45 PM
I mean Southall would have caught it like but ...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Goaljira on January 06, 2020, 06:53:39 PM
This is madness. You know that right?

The year we sold Lukaku for big bucks we got Wayne Rooney in as a cheap replacement. By January we were panic-buying Cenk Tosun. We also sold Ross Barkley and brought in Davy Klaasen.

Every transfer is a gamble because you have to take in so many factors. We have England's first choice keeper, who can play out from the back and has good distribution. Do you know how hard it is to find players for certain positions?

We could sell Pickford and buy Heaton and then he can't settle in the area, or hits a poor run of form or he fucks Ancelotti's daughter and gets dropped for the rest of the season.

How about selling Richarlison to get Deulofeu back? Or sell Bernard for Ryan Fraser?

Ok that last one was not such a strong example - because I am running out of Everton players who are any good. And you want to downgrade the areas we have some little quality in?

Why, why, why would you want our team any worse than it is already?

You have to go for upgrades every time or what is the fucking point?

No, its about finding value to upgrade the team as a whole.  You can't just keep buying more expensive versions for all positions.

Keeping a goalkeeper you could sell for £50m because he's supposedly got good distribution[Exactly how many goals have come from his 'distribution' for us?] ahead of a capable keeper and a midfielder who'd actually play some passes to create some goals for the team isn't madness to me.  Look at the attached image showing cost of the league's current keepers and their purchase cost, and tell me we couldn't replace Pickford adequately for a lot less.

Lukaku effectively went on strike.  Barkley was sold because his contract was nearly up[After he shit on us not moving in the summer].  Just because money has been re-invested poorly in the past, doesn't mean that the current setup would do the same.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 06, 2020, 07:28:56 PM
As every schoolboy knows the spine of your team is the most important...WHICH STARTS WITH YOUR GOALKEEPER...

Goalkeeper...we have England's current number 1....WHY WOULD WE WANT TO CHANGE HIM

Centre Half....allegedly we have an England and Columbian international....both need replacing

Centre Mid..both our probables are CURRENTLY out injured...but hopefully fill the void on their.....

Centre forward..we haven't got a recognised goal scorer....and haven't had one for 3 years...

so basically 3/4 of the spine is in place dependant on your point of view...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: duncandisorderly on January 06, 2020, 10:59:09 PM
Not really a fan of Pickford but he can't be blamed for that yesterday. World class strike and i don't think anyone would have saved it.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on January 07, 2020, 06:34:09 AM
Not really a fan of Pickford but he can't be blamed for that yesterday. World class strike and i don't think anyone would have saved it.

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It was almost certainly savable.  Pickford was only an inch or two away himself, and other keepers, like De Gea, are considerably better than he is at making such saves.  With that said, I don't blame him for the goal.  It was a great finish. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ramjam on January 07, 2020, 06:38:28 AM
Our players go down to easily and gift easy possession and space to our opponents this creates better opportunities for whoever we are playing, Pickford not to blame here although I think in general we could do with a better keeper


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 07, 2020, 04:06:00 PM
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jordan-pickford-handing-carlo-ancelotti-17518251

This isnít good at all.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 04:10:50 PM
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jordan-pickford-handing-carlo-ancelotti-17518251

This isnít good at all.



Does xg take in to account the difficulty of the shot?  So if we're conceeding easy chances is that reflected... Also things like close range headers from set pieces which we've conceeded a disproportionate amount of goals from?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 07, 2020, 04:14:12 PM
Does xg take in to account the difficulty of the shot?  So if we're conceeding easy chances is that reflected... Also things like close range headers from set pieces which we've conceeded a disproportionate amount of goals from?

It doesnít to be fair but we have conceded a lot of goals from outside the box this season.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 07, 2020, 04:16:41 PM
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jordan-pickford-handing-carlo-ancelotti-17518251

This isnít good at all.
None of that is any surprise really- very overated player by many.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 04:17:05 PM
It doesnít to be fair but we have conceded a lot of goals from outside the box this season.



Yeah didn't think it did and it's why I'd take it with a massive pinch of salt, it's basically saying his save rate should be higher without taking in to consideration the difficulty of that save.  If you conceeded 8 more headed goals from 8 yards out from set pieces then a rival keeper your xg will look worse despite you having no chance of saving those goals from going in
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 07, 2020, 04:22:06 PM
Liverpool keeper had three shots straight at him on Sunday. I assume they would have all counted as saves despite being routine in the extreme.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ramjam on January 07, 2020, 04:26:32 PM
Liverpool keeper had three shots straight at him on Sunday. I assume they would have all counted as saves despite being routine in the extreme.
Routine saves or bad finishing


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 07, 2020, 04:30:19 PM
Routine saves or bad finishing


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Either way the stats are credited to the keeper.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 07, 2020, 04:41:49 PM
This is what I was trying to explain to a particular poster before xmasÖ.there are other potential factors that are not taken into account in these Xg stats that when factured in throws a different light on certain stats.. whether that's a positive or negative aspect of the situation/stat or not...it basically boils down to the breakdown of the facturisation of the stat and the influences on the breakdown...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 07, 2020, 05:08:23 PM
Does xg take in to account the difficulty of the shot?  So if we're conceeding easy chances is that reflected... Also things like close range headers from set pieces which we've conceeded a disproportionate amount of goals from?

Depends what you mean by difficulty of the shot, and depends which model you are using.

Any post shot or xgot models use placement of shot, very sophisticated models will take into account shot trajectory, speed, where it is going to enter the goal if on target, keeper position, defensive pressure etc.

It will never be perfect of course but is it an indication that he's been patchy with occasionally wonderful saves, it is and frankly that is kinda what your eyes woukd say as well.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 07, 2020, 05:10:26 PM
It seems to suggest he's conceded seven more goals than he should've and I reckon we can all pick out seven goals where he was at the least questionable.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Duncs_a_legend on January 07, 2020, 05:33:21 PM
I remember lots of people questioned Pep when he dropped Joe Hart, maybe we'll see Ancelotti do something similar.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 07, 2020, 05:42:17 PM
In reality there is no question whatsoever because he's by far the best keeper at the club and easily good enough to play for a club of our stature.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 07, 2020, 06:06:05 PM
Ps big fan of these posters who always reckon they know how modern football data analysis is critically flawed in ways the pros don't, and should be disregarded despite the already overwhelming and ever growing body of evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hawkandro on January 07, 2020, 06:35:49 PM
How bad must Lossl be though? Having Stekelenburg ahead of him?! Looked pretty solid at Huddersfield.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 06:40:04 PM
Ps big fan of these posters who always reckon they know how modern football data analysis is critically flawed in ways the pros don't, and should be disregarded despite the already overwhelming and ever growing body of evidence to the contrary.

I'm not saying it should be completely disregarded, just you can't base a whole opinion on it.

Personally I think Pickford is doing just about ok, he's let in some shots he should have saved but so does every single keeper and I don't feel it's a disproportionate amount.  Maybe I notice other keepers making clangers or even marginal errors more because I used to play in goal, but I think the majority of our fans only notice Pickford's errors, or even find fault often where there isn't any just because they don't really understand goal keeping as well as outfield play.

I read people saying his distribution is poor, when it's not, see Chech for Arsenal when Emery tried to get him to play out from the back to understand poor distribution.

I'd be interested to see how he compares to Dubravka at Newcastle who is a keeper who I feel makes a lot of good saves but let's in far too many other keepers would save.  Does Pickford fare better or worse?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GLewis on January 07, 2020, 07:09:40 PM
Ps big fan of these posters who always reckon they know how modern football data analysis is critically flawed in ways the pros don't, and should be disregarded despite the already overwhelming and ever growing body of evidence to the contrary.

My issue with it is that itís not very often the professionals talking about it.

As you say, if everyone had access to the really sophisticated stuff then thereís be more value in the general chat.

As it is, you get very small data sets or primitive models now used as definitive evidence. Which then leads to arguments that data isnít useful.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Picko1975 on January 07, 2020, 07:19:41 PM
I'm not sure whether anyone has mentioned it (apologies if they already have done) but my main concern with Pickford, even when he first signed, is his general lack of height in comparison to other goalkeepers.  I think hes 'only' 6 foot which is quite small by todays standards.  He was an inch away from getting a finger on that shot on Sunday so another 4 to 5 inches in height would have made a massive difference t his chances of saving it.  When I watch him in goal at the Gladwys Street end he doesn't seem to fill the goal the way oposition goalies do.  I know the counter argument is that his lack of height should make him more agile but I'm not sure if he does make up for it in that way. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: dekko on January 07, 2020, 07:36:02 PM
How bad must Lossl be though? Having Stekelenburg ahead of him?! Looked pretty solid at Huddersfield.

Isnít he injured?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mac934 on January 07, 2020, 07:36:25 PM
How bad must Lossl be though? Having Stekelenburg ahead of him?! Looked pretty solid at Huddersfield.
Isn't Lossl injured or has been recently?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 07, 2020, 07:39:18 PM
I'm not sure whether anyone has mentioned it (apologies if they already have done) but my main concern with Pickford, even when he first signed, is his general lack of height in comparison to other goalkeepers.  I think hes 'only' 6 foot which is quite small by todays standards.  He was an inch away from getting a finger on that shot on Sunday so another 4 to 5 inches in height would have made a massive difference t his chances of saving it.  When I watch him in goal at the Gladwys Street end he doesn't seem to fill the goal the way oposition goalies do.  I know the counter argument is that his lack of height should make him more agile but I'm not sure if he does make up for it in that way.

the counter argument to that is he can get down quicker to lower shots as he proved so well on sunday !

in all honesty it's all about the starting position for goalies...that and get the angles right and you're 99% there...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 07:49:32 PM
I'm not sure whether anyone has mentioned it (apologies if they already have done) but my main concern with Pickford, even when he first signed, is his general lack of height in comparison to other goalkeepers.  I think hes 'only' 6 foot which is quite small by todays standards.  He was an inch away from getting a finger on that shot on Sunday so another 4 to 5 inches in height would have made a massive difference t his chances of saving it.  When I watch him in goal at the Gladwys Street end he doesn't seem to fill the goal the way oposition goalies do.  I know the counter argument is that his lack of height should make him more agile but I'm not sure if he does make up for it in that way. 

Go back a couple of pages I think it was where I explain why this isn't correct with regards the Liverpool goal 😊
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 07, 2020, 07:57:32 PM
Ps big fan of these posters who always reckon they know how modern football data analysis is critically flawed in ways the pros don't, and should be disregarded despite the already overwhelming and ever growing body of evidence to the contrary.

Most people distrust the opinions of professionals and experts these days, mate, Brexit underlined that.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 08:00:48 PM
I'm not sure whether anyone has mentioned it (apologies if they already have done) but my main concern with Pickford, even when he first signed, is his general lack of height in comparison to other goalkeepers.  I think hes 'only' 6 foot which is quite small by todays standards.  He was an inch away from getting a finger on that shot on Sunday so another 4 to 5 inches in height would have made a massive difference t his chances of saving it.  When I watch him in goal at the Gladwys Street end he doesn't seem to fill the goal the way oposition goalies do.  I know the counter argument is that his lack of height should make him more agile but I'm not sure if he does make up for it in that way. 

In fact i'll save you some time, here it is:

Surprised with the memes apparently going around about Pickford and his t-rex arms etc hasn't been reflected in criticism of him on here, but just in case anyone wants to trot out the bigger keeper would have saved it argument here's my perspective as a former keeper.

Pickford was about an inch or two away from it, so it's easy to say if he was an inch or 3 taller her have saved it.  However his leap / spring was huge and more than made up for that difference.  Yes in an ideal world a 6,3" keeper with that same spring saves it, but taller keepers tend to have less agility, so it's quite possible a taller keeper still doesn't save it.

I know no one on here has blamed him for the goal yet, but just in case anyone is thinking it I'm not convinced that's the case, it was just a perfectly placed shot.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on January 07, 2020, 08:06:26 PM
I was pretty amazed that Pickford almost got it.  It was a bolt out of the blue, and placed perfectly.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Thornton_19 on January 07, 2020, 08:42:04 PM
Joao Virginia has been recalled. Coincidence? Probably.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 09:14:43 PM
Does xg take in to account the difficulty of the shot?  So if we're conceeding easy chances is that reflected... Also things like close range headers from set pieces which we've conceeded a disproportionate amount of goals from?

He has 21 goals allowed from open play, 8 from set pieces, 1 from a penalty. I didn't count the 2 own goals. He has 55 saves from 84 shots on target, 65%. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure this is the worst save % of the 20 Prem keepers. Sure some were unavoidable, many were not. Pretty much balances out.

(note I didn't read the article yet)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 07, 2020, 09:17:30 PM
Joao Virginia has been recalled. Coincidence? Probably.
Think he got recalled as he couldn't get anywhere near the Reading team, Pickford isnt that big an issue to think Virginia is the answer

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 07, 2020, 09:18:54 PM
Joao Virginia has been recalled. Coincidence? Probably.

Basically because Reading weren't playing him, will be loaned out to someone else before the end of Jan
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 09:30:07 PM
I'm not saying it should be completely disregarded, just you can't base a whole opinion on it.

Personally I think Pickford is doing just about ok, he's let in some shots he should have saved but so does every single keeper and I don't feel it's a disproportionate amount.  Maybe I notice other keepers making clangers or even marginal errors more because I used to play in goal, but I think the majority of our fans only notice Pickford's errors, or even find fault often where there isn't any just because they don't really understand goal keeping as well as outfield play.

I read people saying his distribution is poor, when it's not, see Chech for Arsenal when Emery tried to get him to play out from the back to understand poor distribution.

I'd be interested to see how he compares to Dubravka at Newcastle who is a keeper who I feel makes a lot of good saves but let's in far too many other keepers would save.  Does Pickford fare better or worse?

Newcastle has conceded 33 goals on an xGA of 37, so Dubravka is outperforming the "norm" by 4 goals. Probably has a good amount to do with why Newcastle's table spot is a good 5-6 places higher than it should be.

By contrast, Everton/Pickford have conceded 5 fewer goals than expected (and scored 5 fewer as well), which is the difference of about 5 points, or 8th instead of 11th.

There IS a correlation, even if it's not perfect as @brap2 (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) said.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 10:12:13 PM
Newcastle has conceded 33 goals on an xGA of 37, so Dubravka is outperforming the "norm" by 4 goals. Probably has a good amount to do with why Newcastle's table spot is a good 5-6 places higher than it should be.

By contrast, Everton/Pickford have conceded 5 fewer goals than expected (and scored 5 fewer as well), which is the difference of about 5 points, or 8th instead of 11th.

There IS a correlation, even if it's not perfect as @brap2 (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) said.

Sorry I struggle with this whole xg thing... is that team xg, or goalkeeper xg you've listed there, and are there different xg stats for both?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 10:21:41 PM
Sorry I struggle with this whole xg thing... is that team xg, or goalkeeper xg you've listed there, and are there different xg stats for both?

I went with straight team xGA, but it's about the same. Ex. Pickford has conceded 31 non-pen/own goals, his xpected goals conceded for the same would be 27. That's specifically just Pickford. Interestingly, he's done well vs set pieces, and most glaringly poor vs direct free kicks. He's only allowed 1 more open play goals than he should have, and corners he's spot-on at 4 allowed/should have allowed.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 10:26:37 PM
I went with straight team xGA, but it's about the same. Ex. Pickford has conceded 31 non-pen/own goals, his xpected goals conceded for the same would be 27. That's specifically just Pickford. Interestingly, he's done well vs set pieces, and most glaringly poor vs direct free kicks. He's only allowed 1 more open play goals than he should have, and corners he's spot-on at 4 allowed/should have allowed.

Ok so if I'm reading this right Pickford has conceded 4 more then he should according to xg, and Dubravka has conceded 4 less than he should?

Meaning Dubravka is actually +8 better xg then Pickford?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 10:30:20 PM
Ok so if I'm reading this right Pickford has conceded 4 more then he should according to xg, and Dubravka has conceded 4 less than he should?

Meaning Dubravka is actually +8 better xg then Pickford?

The first 2, yes, completely correct.

I'm not certain if the math is that simple by comparison though. Maybe @brap2 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) knows?

edit: if you mean comparing them if they BOTH played for Everton, then you probably could say Dubravka is +8 to what Pickford has done, but even that I'm not certain.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 10:34:44 PM
The first 2, yes, completely correct.

I'm not certain if the math is that simple by comparison though. Maybe @brap2 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) knows?

If so this to me really would make me think xg is completely misleading as there's no way Dubravka has out performed Pickford... I live in the North East so half follow Newcastle and whilst he pulls off some excellent saves this season he's been extremely inconsistent and has made far more errors that have lead goals against.

Would be interesting to see if the +8 better xg is what the stats say because I'm 100% convinced there's no way at all in the real world that's correct (more like the other way round)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on January 07, 2020, 10:38:38 PM
Liverpool keeper had three shots straight at him on Sunday. I assume they would have all counted as saves despite being routine in the extreme.
The especially routine and the especially difficult tend to average each other out over the course of the season.  The larger the sample size the more guidance xGA can provide. 

Further, as noted by Brap noted above, most expected goal models will take into account the location of the shot to some degree.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bigmanbob on January 07, 2020, 10:39:04 PM
I literally have no idea what any of the above means
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 10:40:41 PM
If so this to me really would make me think xg is completely misleading as there's no way Dubravka has out performed Pickford... I live in the North East so half follow Newcastle and whilst he pulls off some excellent saves this season he's been extremely inconsistent and has made far more errors that have lead goals against.

Would be interesting to see if the +8 better xg is what the stats say because I'm 100% convinced there's no way at all in the real world that's correct (more like the other way round)

That's why just 1 stat on its own can't possibly be the best way to evaluate someone, you know?

Dubravka also leads the Prem in saves, with 88 (Pickford has 55). So when he lets in 33 vs Pickford's 32, on 30+ more shots, you can actually see the difference. While I don't place a ton of weight on clean sheets, they both have 5. How much more difficult is it to get 5 cleans when you've faced 88 shots then getting 5 cleans when you've only faced 55 shots? Quite a bit more, I'd think.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 10:41:26 PM
I literally have no idea what any of the above means

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7btPCcdNniyf0ArS/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 10:51:06 PM
That's why just 1 stat on its own can't possibly be the best way to evaluate someone, you know?

Dubravka also leads the Prem in saves, with 88 (Pickford has 55). So when he lets in 33 vs Pickford's 32, on 30+ more shots, you can actually see the difference. While I don't place a ton of weight on clean sheets, they both have 5. How much more difficult is it to get 5 cleans when you've faced 88 shots then getting 5 cleans when you've only faced 55 shots? Quite a bit more, I'd think.

It's so subjective though the clean sheet thing....in those.games maybe Bruce parked the bus (which he likes to do) and although the opposition had say 10 shots they're all speculative from distance.

Whereas we don't tend to park the bus, so same weekend our opponents have 10 shots of which 3 are good opportunities to score. We also keep a clean sheet.

So which keeper had the easier job to keep a clean sheet?

I'm absolutely certain that with Dubravka in goal we'd have been far worse off then with Pickford because the former is much more error prone, not taking in to account other factors like his worse distribution etc.

So anyone using xg for comparing goalies or a specific goalies performance is really using a metric that's badly flawed or at best misleading if taken as the only evidence.

I've picked Dubravka as for my comparison as I've paid attention to his performances this year (largely because last year I thought he did well and I was surprised to see his drop off in performance this year)... So if anyone wants to say Fabianski is a better keeper because of his xg it annoys me as they've probably not actually paid any attention over period of time to his actual performances in real life.

Basically xg is all well and good but imo it's not something you can use solely to compare keepers, that has to be done in real life too
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 10:53:38 PM
It's so subjective though the clean sheet thing....in those.games maybe Bruce parked the bus (which he likes to do) and although the opposition had say 10 shots they're all speculative from distance.

Whereas we don't tend to park the bus, so same weekend our opponents have 10 shots of which 3 are good opportunities to score. We also keep a clean sheet.

So which keeper had the easier job to keep a clean sheet?

I'm absolutely certain that with Dubravka in goal we'd have been far worse off then with Pickford because the former is much more error prone, not taking in to account other factors like his worse distribution etc.

So anyone using xg for comparing goalies or a specific goalies performance is really using a metric that's badly flawed or at best misleading if taken as the only evidence.

I've picked Dubravka as for my comparison as I've paid attention to his performances this year (largely because last year I thought he did well and I was surprised to see his drop off in performance this year)... So if anyone wants to say Fabianski is a better keeper because of his xg it annoys me as they've probably not actually paid any attention over period of time to his actual performances in real life.

Basically xg is all well and good but imo it's not something you can use solely to compare keepers, that has to be done in real life too

I don't disagree with any of that tbh. I wouldn't want Dubravsky over Pickford anyhow :P

I DO still think we could maintain the exact same level of quality for half the cost we could get from selling him. Assuming we could get 40m for him (may be way overshooting this), but 20m buys you a very good keeper from basically any flight outside of the EPL.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 11:01:29 PM
I don't disagree with any of that tbh. I wouldn't want Dubravsky over Pickford anyhow :P

I DO still think we could maintain the exact same level of quality for half the cost we could get from selling him. Assuming we could get 40m for him (may be way overshooting this), but 20m buys you a very good keeper from basically any flight outside of the EPL.

Possibly but I also think we lost Zouma and Gueye in the summer, so removing another player from our lineup could have negative effects... You can only sell so much of your defensive unit before you have problems, even if it's say 12 months apart (and we have enough problems back there as it is).

We've also got a nucleus of good young English players all developing together in Pickford, DCL, Holgate etc and I'd much rather keep them together as that helps team moral, bonding, creates an identity within the team etc etc.

Also at present Pickford is performing at a good level for a Premier League keeper but has a high potential ceiling if he develops the mental side of his game more, which should in theory happen as he matures over the next 2-3 years.

I think the arguments for replacing with a player half the price of similar current ability whilst it does have some merits also has a load of factors that imo don't make it a good option in reality 😊
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 11:04:46 PM
Possibly but I also think we lost Zouma and Gueye in the summer, so removing another player from our lineup could have negative effects... You can only sell so much of your defensive unit before you have problems, even if it's say 12 months apart (and we have enough problems back there as it is).

We've also got a nucleus of good young English players all developing together in Pickford, DCL, Holgate etc and I'd much rather keep them together as that helps team moral, bonding, creates an identity within the team etc etc.

Also at present Pickford is performing at a good level for a Premier League keeper but has a high potential ceiling if he develops the mental side of his game more, which should in theory happen as he matures over the next 2-3 years.

I think the arguments for replacing with a player half the price of similar current ability whilst it does have some merits also has a load of factors that imo don't make it a good option in reality 😊

Fair play, that. He's the least of our concerns, so I'm just thinking 2 years from now like any great manager would ;)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on January 07, 2020, 11:06:54 PM
Possibly but I also think we lost Zouma and Gueye in the summer, so removing another player from our lineup could have negative effects... You can only sell so much of your defensive unit before you have problems, even if it's say 12 months apart (and we have enough problems back there as it is).

We've also got a nucleus of good young English players all developing together in Pickford, DCL, Holgate etc and I'd much rather keep them together as that helps team moral, bonding, creates an identity within the team etc etc.

Also at present Pickford is performing at a good level for a Premier League keeper but has a high potential ceiling if he develops the mental side of his game more, which should in theory happen as he matures over the next 2-3 years.

I think the arguments for replacing with a player half the price of similar current ability whilst it does have some merits also has a load of factors that imo don't make it a good option in reality 😊

Except all statistical evidence suggests that Pickford is not performing at a good level for a premier league keeper.  Statistically, he is one of the worst.  Per the article, he has one of the worst save percentages and worst (if not the worst) xGA differentials.  Moreover, he is failing the eye test too, as I think there have been a number of saves this year that other keepers would have gotten to. 

To be clear, I'd keep him as our starter at the moment, and don't think replacing him should be a priority this window or the next, but if his performances don't start to improve, questions should continue to be asked.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 11:11:08 PM
Except all statistical evidence suggests that Pickford is not performing at a good level for a premier league keeper.  Statistically, he is one of the absolute worst. Per the article, he has one of the worst save percentages and worst (if not the worst) xGA differentials.  Moreover, he is failing the eye test too, as I think there have been a number of saves this year that other keepers would have gotten to. 

To be clear, I'd keep him as our starter at the moment, and don't think replacing him should be a priority this window or the next, but if his performances don't start to improve, questions should continue to be asked.

I can think of maybe 2 goals off the top of my head he should have saved... Again this is a bit of a subjective thing as I've seen people say he should have saved the one against Liverpool or a taller keeper would have saved it, but both are incorrect viewpoints imo.

There's room improvement for sure but I absolutely don't agree he's one of the worst keepers in the League, and my comparison with Dubravka above imo goes to show the issue with a) people using xg to compare keepers, and b) people making statements based on xg without really watching other goalkeepers performances over a period of time with their own eyes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on January 07, 2020, 11:16:23 PM
I can think of maybe 2 goals off the top of my head he should have saved... Again this is a bit of a subjective thing as I've seen people say he should have saved the one against Liverpool or a taller keeper would have saved it, but both are incorrect viewpoints imo.

There's room improvement for sure but I absolutely don't agree he's one of the worst keepers in the League, and my comparison with Dubravka above imo goes to show the issue with a) people using xg to compare keepers, and b) people making statements based on xg without really watching other goalkeepers performances over a period of time with their own eyes.

You are not the only former keeper here - I too played at a relatively high level - and I disagree with the your subjective assessment of Pickford's performances.  When you add in the statistical analysis (and I should add, Pickford performed poorly on such metrics last season as well, including by being in the top 5 in mistakes leading to goals), it suggests that your analysis, not mine, is the inaccurate one.  And that you might be overly prejudiced against analytics, as, to be fair, many remain.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 11:20:30 PM
I can think of maybe 2 goals off the top of my head he should have saved... Again this is a bit of a subjective thing as I've seen people say he should have saved the one against Liverpool or a taller keeper would have saved it, but both are incorrect viewpoints imo.

There's room improvement for sure but I absolutely don't agree he's one of the worst keepers in the League, and my comparison with Dubravka above imo goes to show the issue with a) people using xg to compare keepers, and b) people making statements based on xg without really watching other goalkeepers performances over a period of time with their own eyes.

btw I had my numbers all wrong above, but just the total shots faced part. Dubravka has faced 121, Pickford 86.

Anyway, check this out. Prem keepers ranked based on Above Average Goals Saved (AAGS). It measures how many goals a keeper is directly responsible for saving/conceding. I don't know what constitutes 'directly responsible,' however.

(https://i.ibb.co/7nYhQ6v/ENrcb-BUWk-AAY94-T.jpg)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 11:26:30 PM
btw I had my numbers all wrong above, but just the total shots faced part. Dubravka has faced 121, Pickford 86.

Anyway, check this out. Prem keepers ranked based on Above Average Goals Saved (AAGS). It measures how many goals a keeper is directly responsible for saving/conceding. I don't know what constitutes 'directly responsible,' however.

(https://i.ibb.co/7nYhQ6v/ENrcb-BUWk-AAY94-T.jpg)

Again the problem with this is it suggest Dubravka is performing miles better then Pickford, which isn't the case... it's an interesting stat to view but it just feels almost impossible to agree with?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 07, 2020, 11:30:18 PM
You are not the only former keeper here - I too played at a relatively high level - and I disagree with the your subjective assessment of Pickford's performances.  When you add in the statistical analysis (and I should add, Pickford performed poorly on such metrics last season as well, including by being in the top 5 in mistakes leading to goals), it suggests that your analysis, not mine, is the inaccurate one.  And that you might be overly prejudiced against analytics, as, to be fair, many remain.

I'm not completely against stats, I feel they have their place... I just don't think they can be used accurately to assess a goal keepers performance.  Like I said side by side Dubravka out performs Pickford, but in reality he's made more mistake IMO that have directly lead to goals and I think we'd struggle to find anyone who would want to swap Pickford for Dubravka, so there's not a huge amount of validity in using them on a forum like this as evidence of anything.

Do you have the results for Dubravka vs Pickford in mistakes leading to goals out of interest, because I remember far more mistakes by the former this season then the latter that direclty lead to goals conceded.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 07, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
I'm not completely against stats, I feel they have their place... I just don't think they can be used accurately to assess a goal keepers performance.  Like I said side by side Dubravka out performs Pickford, but in reality he's made more mistake IMO that have directly lead to goals and I think we'd struggle to find anyone who would want to swap Pickford for Dubravka, so there's not a huge amount of validity in using them on a forum like this as evidence of anything.

Do you have the results for Dubravka vs Pickford in mistakes leading to goals out of interest, because I remember far more mistakes by the former this season then the latter that direclty lead to goals conceded.

not to belabor the point (too late!), this is a pretty black/white metric. How did a keeper perform against shots that were entirely up to him to save. Dubravsky is +3.83, Pickford is -6.21. Call it 1-on-1s, direct free kicks, whatever, it doesn't matter. Dub has outperformed Pickford, despite what your eyes have told you. ;)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on January 07, 2020, 11:36:24 PM
Does it count if I said I played to a fairly high level without saying just how high I got and how much level 42 I listened to?

Or are we talking about the bloke down the pub fairly high level before I injured my knee level?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 12:43:29 AM
not to belabor the point (too late!), this is a pretty black/white metric. How did a keeper perform against shots that were entirely up to him to save. Dubravsky is +3.83, Pickford is -6.21. Call it 1-on-1s, direct free kicks, whatever, it doesn't matter. Dub has outperformed Pickford, despite what your eyes have told you. ;)

Haha yes according to this that's correct, but that kind of proves my point about why those stats can't be relied on as a stick to beat someone with.  They're interesting for sure, but that's all they are 😊
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 08, 2020, 04:02:06 AM
Sorry I struggle with this whole xg thing... is that team xg, or goalkeeper xg you've listed there, and are there different xg stats for both?

Yo! I'm a rank rank rank amateur at this but I do find it interesting.

So 100% agree that this stuff cannot be taken as the only measure of a keepers performance.

But, I would also 100% say that there's no way you should only take the evidence of your eyes - human beings by their nature are subject to 1000 biases and psychological trick of experience and memory that mean we can never be the purely empirical source of recollection.

Football clubs and scouts these days rely a great deal on analysis because it helps you pare down quickly into buckets of players that look like they have or don't have something going on. They then obviously have to watch the players that they have drawn these conclusions on.

In the keepers case, you would say save % so how often are they saving shots? But beyond that, you have to say some shots are going to be harder to save than others so it's unfair to use just save percent right?

So let's look at the quality of the shot, that's xg, the best measurement the world of football has to gauge the quality of a shot (note : there is no 1 universal xg figure, lots of companies using similar but slightly different calculations). Also I have no idea what companies measurement the echo writer uses, but he is a good writer with a good understanding of this stuff.

So they count the accumulated total of all the shots they've faced, and based on their calculations, that's how many goals they think you could reasonably expect to have scored from all those shots.

Then they look at the keeper - OK if we think the strikers should have scored 10 times, how many did the keeper manage to keep out?

I think that the gist, but even that seems simplistic so there's possibly more to it.

It's not perfect of course, and in particular the model being shown around on twitter at the moment is NOT post shot, so only a basic model that doesn't take into account keepers, defenders, trajectory or quality of strike, and is more about how far and where abouts in front of the goal the striker was. Its not going to be as accurate as it looks so you may well be right about Dubravka.

The other model shown above Above Average Goals Saved, i have never seen before, but seems to back up that Pickford is letting goals in that he shouldn't, although he is capable of superb saves.

https://twitter.com/ThatGarateyjc/status/1214525412149211136?s=19

Also a fella I am a fan of has posted his ratings.

Pickford performed a little better, but unfortunately Dubravka comes top 5!

I've no idea if this helps, once I started I just didn't stop!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 01:53:29 PM


This is a great post tbf, I think stats in the right hands are useful, I just hate how fans try and use them to push an agenda or claim something is correct when they don't understand them and how they're created (which I don't either), or watch other goalies in detail so they have a comparison or even a base line of what is a reasonable level of goalkeeping.

I definitely don't rule out stats completely, and like you said scouts etc will use these and then go.and watch the players with their eyes, compare those they think on paper look good and try and sign the best based on all the evidence.

I'm still convinced no scout would watch Dubravka and Pickford and then sign the former, because he'd fail the eye test regardless of what his stats suggest... But based on those alone they'd most likely at least go watch him several times to come to that conclusion.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 08, 2020, 02:36:39 PM
This is a great post tbf, I think stats in the right hands are useful, I just hate how fans try and use them to push an agenda or claim something is correct when they don't understand them and how they're created (which I don't either), or watch other goalies in detail so they have a comparison or even a base line of what is a reasonable level of goalkeeping.

I definitely don't rule out stats completely, and like you said scouts etc will use these and then go.and watch the players with their eyes, compare those they think on paper look good and try and sign the best based on all the evidence.

I'm still convinced no scout would watch Dubravka and Pickford and then sign the former, because he'd fail the eye test regardless of what his stats suggest... But based on those alone they'd most likely at least go watch him several times to come to that conclusion.



I'm guilty of it deffo, if I like a player I am v guilty of using their positive stats to form the narrative.

The fella who's tweet input out above has posted another and said the lines are razor thin for keepers on this. If you look at kasper Schmeichel he looks very good this year, same for the year they won the title, but ever other year has been garbage.

He also used Lossl as an example of a keeper who's shot stopping is just permo shite which isn't a great sign haha.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 02:56:42 PM
I'm guilty of it deffo, if I like a player I am v guilty of using their positive stats to form the narrative.

The fella who's tweet input out above has posted another and said the lines are razor thin for keepers on this. If you look at kasper Schmeichel he looks very good this year, same for the year they won the title, but ever other year has been garbage.

He also used Lossl as an example of a keeper who's shot stopping is just permo shite which isn't a great sign haha.

Yeah I think as it's becoming more part of the game we all do tbh at times 😊

I'd love to see how they rated Adrien's saves from Holgate and Richarlison, both were close range with high probability of goals, but both routine saves... Does xg rate those as saves that should be made because they were straight at him, or unexpected saves due to the close proximity of shot and highly likelihood of a goal... Does anyone even know?

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 08, 2020, 03:09:10 PM
Yeah I think as it's becoming more part of the game we all do tbh at times 😊

I'd love to see how they rated Adrien's saves from Holgate and Richarlison, both were close range with high probability of goals, but both routine saves... Does xg rate those as saves that should be made because they were straight at him, or unexpected saves due to the close proximity of shot and highly likelihood of a goal... Does anyone even know?



God knows but for just for me personally, his position is right and he moves his feet well so they're good saves.

He couldn't have let the Holgate header in if he had tried however.

I'd think more sophisticated xg models would rate the trajectory of the ball going directly at the keepers hands and lower the xg.

For example if I took a vending shot from outside the box, it would start of a very low xg like 0.05, then my shite technique would put it softly into the keepers hands which would lower it again, as for that to go in when hit like that you need a freak result e.g Karius in net.

But if Messi hits the same shot from the same location, he'd start at 0.05 like me, but his speed and trajectory and quality would make it much better opportunity. The best strikers make harder chances easier.

Finishing quality post shot increases a shots xg, so you'd imagine the inverse would happen also and this would be taken into account.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 03:26:22 PM
God knows but for just for me personally, his position is right and he moves his feet well so they're good saves.

He couldn't have let the Holgate header in if he had tried however.

I'd think more sophisticated xg models would rate the trajectory of the ball going directly at the keepers hands and lower the xg.

For example if I took a vending shot from outside the box, it would start of a very low xg like 0.05, then my shite technique would put it softly into the keepers hands which would lower it again, as for that to go in when hit like that you need a freak result e.g Karius in net.

But if Messi hits the same shot from the same location, he'd start at 0.05 like me, but his speed and trajectory and quality would make it much better opportunity. The best strikers make harder chances easier.

Finishing quality post shot increases a shots xg, so you'd imagine the inverse would happen also and this would be taken into account.


Makes sense, but then it might also depend on who is making that decision too... one person might say it's a high probability of a goal so a big tick for the keeper due to his positioning, and someone like me might say it's a routine save and whilst his positioning was good it was also extremely difficult to be out of position in that situation.

My point about positioning also muddies the waters for me because Ben Foster is much lower down then I'd expect, and he makes some crazy saves all due to his positioning being exceptional... so he makes non routine saves purely due to pin point positioning, whereas Adrien made a routine save from extremely routine positioning.

It's such a minefield really, I'd love to actually sit down with someone who does these xg stats and go through a few goals and saves and understand their thinking, it would be really interesting and probably like most things different people would view things differently.  I'd say goalkeeping though is probably the single hardest position to create accurate stats on.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ramjam on January 08, 2020, 03:32:53 PM
You seem extremely knowledgeable on all goalkeeping strategies Andy, can I ask you what level you played at? No worries if you donít want to share.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 03:41:57 PM
You seem extremely knowledgeable on all goalkeeping strategies Andy, can I ask you what level you played at? No worries if you donít want to share.


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I didn't play to any great level but was always extremely passionate about goalkeeping, in fact despite not being from Liverpool I support Everton because at 6 years old (1986) I started playing in goal and Big Nev was my idol.

I played at school level but at the age of about 15 wanted to be Gabriel Batistuta and so quit and become a forward, which in hindsight I was complete garbage at and shouldn't have made that decision, but I wanted to score goals and run about with my arms stretched out wide like battigoal 🤦‍♂️

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ramjam on January 08, 2020, 04:01:40 PM
Cheers mate, your opinions regarding goalkeepers seems very valid, keep them coming


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 04:02:42 PM
Cheers mate, your opinions regarding goalkeepers seems very valid, keep them coming


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Thanks mate, appreciate that :)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 08, 2020, 05:08:04 PM
Pickford,  the new scapegoat for this shithouse team.  1st it was coleman,  then keane,  dcl,  gylfi, schniederlin,  then reverse that order,  now its on to pickford. The whole fucking team ethic and performance has been fucking abysmal for years. Hes not had a settled defence to play behined for i dont know how long.  Add that to the shithouse tactics of silva.  And hes on an hiding to nothing.  There is no confidence in the entire team.  And because hes the last line of defence his mistakes,  misfortune is all the more evident. This  fella is a very good goaly. He will come very good again.  The whole squad is disjointed and way out of form.  Ancelotti will fix this

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 08, 2020, 05:13:11 PM
Remember tim howard at the world cup,  saved 24 shots in a game? Every shot was right at him,  and christy brown would have saved each one of them too. But that didnt stop fifa and the worlds media hyping him as fucking superman.  Thats xg and stats for you

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 05:21:44 PM
Remember tim howard at the world cup,  saved 24 shots in a game? Every shot was right at him,  and christy brown would have saved each one of them too. But that didnt stop fifa and the worlds media hyping him as fucking superman.  Thats xg and stats for you

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That's definitely my problem with them, because as I've used Dubravka as an example in my previous posts, his stats are actually really strong, but he's playing behind a defence that parks the bus quite often, so I feel his saves generally tend to be easier, whereas Pickford seems to concede a lot of goals that are more due to defensive errors or not closing down properly, or free headers at corners etc etc.  Obvs Dubravka has those too, but I feel the stats tell a story that he's having a brilliant season, when in fact he's had some absolute howlers mixed in there too.

I can't remember which pundit said Pickford should be disappointed with Greenwood's goal fro Man U against us, but actually it came through Mina's legs, was right in the corner and Pickford's dive was actually a very good effort to get to it.  So in that case are XG rating that as a shot he should have saved because it was from the edge of the area and not particularly powerful?  Then rating Adrien's Richarlison save as one he shouldn't have saved?  Not saying that's what's happened, I have no idea, it just worries me that the stats could potentially pull up that scenario which IMO would be massively wrong.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 08, 2020, 05:32:47 PM
Carlo thinks picks is shit

Carlo Ancelotti has told Everton director of football Marcel Brands to find him a new goalkeeper.

The veteran Italian coach made a strong start to life at Goodison Park, beating Burnley and Newcastle

They add the fed-up Italian has now spelt out to senior Everton staff what he wants in the transfer market.

A new top-class goalkeeper to challenge England and Toffees No.1 Jordan Pickford is said to be on the agenda.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/carlo-ancelotti-orders-everton-transfer-21237298

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: dekko on January 08, 2020, 05:34:59 PM
Pickford,  the new scapegoat for this shithouse team.  1st it was coleman,  then keane,  dcl,  gylfi, schniederlin,  then reverse that order,  now its on to pickford. The whole fucking team ethic and performance has been fucking abysmal for years. Hes not had a settled defence to play behined for i dont know how long.  Add that to the shithouse tactics of silva.  And hes on an hiding to nothing.  There is no confidence in the entire team.  And because hes the last line of defence his mistakes,  misfortune is all the more evident. This  fella is a very good goaly. He will come very good again.  The whole squad is disjointed and way out of form.  Ancelotti will fix this

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I trust Ancelottis views over yours.
If heís positioning or he was a bit taller he wouldíve saved last goal. If he wants to get another top keeper and we have the money, why not. At the moment Pickford has no competition.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 08, 2020, 05:38:49 PM
Not that fussed on any of the squad really. If Carlo sees the chance to change things around then I wouldn't be disappointed to see any player go if he thinks he can achieve something better with a different set of players. I'm all in with Ancelotti at this point.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 08, 2020, 05:43:45 PM
Carlo thinks picks is shit

Carlo Ancelotti has told Everton director of football Marcel Brands to find him a new goalkeeper.

The veteran Italian coach made a strong start to life at Goodison Park, beating Burnley and Newcastle

They add the fed-up Italian has now spelt out to senior Everton staff what he wants in the transfer market.

A new top-class goalkeeper to challenge England and Toffees No.1 Jordan Pickford is said to be on the agenda.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/carlo-ancelotti-orders-everton-transfer-21237298

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Well thats fucking bollox isnt it.  Did you read the article?  Says to challange?  Did you read that?  And the star?  FFS Waltz

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 08, 2020, 05:44:48 PM
Well thats fucking bollox isnt it.  Did you read the article?  Says to challange?  Did you read that?  And the star?  FFS Waltz

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Yeah I know, was a little bit of stirring there

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 08, 2020, 05:45:17 PM
I trust my views over yours.
Where as he said this?
Daily fucking star?
I trust Ancelottis views over yours.
If he's positioning or he was a bit taller he would've saved last goal. If he wants to get another top keeper and we have the money, why not. At the moment Pickford has no competition.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 08, 2020, 05:56:48 PM
Did you play as a hooker at any time too
I didn't play to any great level but was always extremely passionate about goalkeeping, in fact despite not being from Liverpool I support Everton because at 6 years old (1986) I started playing in goal and Big Nev was my idol.

I played at school level but at the age of about 15 wanted to be Gabriel Batistuta and so quit and become a forward, which in hindsight I was complete garbage at and shouldn't have made that decision, but I wanted to score goals and run about with my arms stretched out wide like battigoal

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 05:58:09 PM
I trust Ancelottis views over yours.
If heís positioning or he was a bit taller he wouldíve saved last goal. If he wants to get another top keeper and we have the money, why not. At the moment Pickford has no competition.

If I could be arsed to go back to page 38 I think it was I'd copy and paste my explanation why you're totally wrong on both those points... positioning was spot on, a taller keeper wouldn't have necessarily saved it because Pickford's leap more than made up the difference, and no a taller keeper wouldn't spring as high usually because they're less agile... that's in basically in a nut shell.  Or in other words, you're just plain wrong ;)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Alanvideo on January 08, 2020, 06:41:37 PM
I trust my views over yours.
Where as he said this?
Daily fucking star?
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............any one of us could have written that piece based on nothing more than opinions on this forum .
The Star format is the same as The Echo , obviously from the same stable.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 08, 2020, 06:44:07 PM
Has anybody seen or heard ancelotti commenting or calling out pickford? Even the video they post has absolutely nothing to do with their headline. 
............any one of us could have written that piece based on nothing more than opinions on this forum .
The Star format is the same as The Echo , obviously from the same stable.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 08, 2020, 06:49:37 PM
Dekko stated he trusted ancelottis views over mine,  and rightly so,  but thats if ancelotti has made any views regarding pickford public,  which he hasnt has he? Just seems to be someone taking the daily star as the word of the lord.  And thanks be to god for that
............any one of us could have written that piece based on nothing more than opinions on this forum .
The Star format is the same as The Echo , obviously from the same stable.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 08, 2020, 07:05:23 PM
Did you play as a hooker at any time too
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Is that a rugby position?  I grew up playing footy, golf, cricket but never Rugby, largely due to the fact I was about 6 stone wet through :D
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 08, 2020, 09:45:15 PM
Remember tim howard at the world cup,  saved 24 shots in a game? Every shot was right at him,  and christy brown would have saved each one of them too. But that didnt stop fifa and the worlds media hyping him as fucking superman.  Thats xg and stats for you

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That's not xGA and stats for you. That's a single isolated incident. xG is a "mean" over countless similar situations. There are always going to be outliers. The more the sample size grows, the more accurate that mean becomes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 08, 2020, 09:46:55 PM
Plus as always, these things shake out over hundreds and hundreds of shots.

You will remember some howlers and some good saves... But how has performance been over hundreds and hundreds of shots.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mick 1995 on January 08, 2020, 09:49:59 PM
I like these stats to differentiate between form and ability.

They cannot shed any light on a players set up in any given system, but they can absolutely warn you against players in rich veins of form.
I remember @brap2 (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) or @kramer0 (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=4360) sounding warning klaxons over Sandro. Big loud ones.

Players have shit periods. But it is rare that data fibs & the more of it you have, the less likely it is to fib.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 08, 2020, 10:05:23 PM
I know that,  i was being arsey. Point i was making was shots saved and type of shots saved or most times wrongly interprated
That's not xGA and stats for you. That's a single isolated incident. xG is a "mean" over countless similar situations. There are always going to be outliers. The more the sample size grows, the more accurate that mean becomes.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on January 09, 2020, 12:51:31 AM
Did you play as a hooker at any time too
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Oh you didnít?!

Scarily close to me though. First paragraph I thought it was me
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on January 09, 2020, 12:55:34 AM
Is that a rugby position?  I grew up playing footy, golf, cricket but never Rugby, largely due to the fact I was about 6 stone wet through :D

It is. It was (is) my position and barks back to a slight altercation between myself and @brap2 (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=666) when talking about stats. I called him a geek, he made aspersions about my playing career. I bitches. He bitched. Weíre friends now
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 09, 2020, 01:21:35 AM
This thread prompted me to finally watch Moneyball... fascinating and brilliant film, certainly shows there are definite uses for stats in recruitment.  The whole Iwobe 'dangerous passes' stat or what ever it was that looks like the reason we signed him for really stands out as how this can be used and why it's important in looking at potential in players if used in the correct way to bring out that potential.

Still not sold on it for goalies but it's a great watch for anyone wondering just how stats became such an integral part of all sports analysis!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 09, 2020, 01:31:03 AM
Theres a few on here who played keeper and hooker.  You,  me,  i cant think who the other was/is though
Oh you didn't?!

Scarily close to me though. First paragraph I thought it was me

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Brownie on January 09, 2020, 01:34:46 AM
Theres a few on here who played keeper and hooker.  You,  me,  i cant think who the other was/is though
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All the most talented sportsmen play in goal or in the front row
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 09, 2020, 01:49:12 AM
This thread prompted me to finally watch Moneyball... fascinating and brilliant film, certainly shows there are definite uses for stats in recruitment.  The whole Iwobe 'dangerous passes' stat or what ever it was that looks like the reason we signed him for really stands out as how this can be used and why it's important in looking at potential in players if used in the correct way to bring out that potential.

Still not sold on it for goalies but it's a great watch for anyone wondering just how stats became such an integral part of all sports analysis!

I'll take it! :D
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 09, 2020, 01:58:36 AM
Did you work as a hooker at any time? too
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I did for a while, but I donít want to talk about it 😒
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 09, 2020, 01:59:35 AM
This thread prompted me to finally watch Moneyball... fascinating and brilliant film, certainly shows there are definite uses for stats in recruitment.  The whole Iwobe 'dangerous passes' stat or what ever it was that looks like the reason we signed him for really stands out as how this can be used and why it's important in looking at potential in players if used in the correct way to bring out that potential.

Still not sold on it for goalies but it's a great watch for anyone wondering just how stats became such an integral part of all sports analysis!

Yeah, enjoyable film.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 09, 2020, 02:02:46 AM
This thread prompted me to finally watch Moneyball... fascinating and brilliant film, certainly shows there are definite uses for stats in recruitment.  The whole Iwobe 'dangerous passes' stat or what ever it was that looks like the reason we signed him for really stands out as how this can be used and why it's important in looking at potential in players if used in the correct way to bring out that potential.

Still not sold on it for goalies but it's a great watch for anyone wondering just how stats became such an integral part of all sports analysis!

Watched it so many times. One of my favourite films.

Read the book if you get the chance. Gives a slightly different perspective.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toffee_4_Life on January 10, 2020, 09:18:26 PM
Ancelotti confirmed the rumour were after a new keeper is rubbish (who's have thought it from the Daily Star?!!)

Even said all the rumours of targets in the papers are wrong!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 10, 2020, 09:21:52 PM
Ancelotti confirmed the rumour were after a new keeper is rubbish (who's have thought it from the Daily Star?!!)

Even said all the rumours of targets in the papers are wrong!

This is my surprised face.

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/ZgqJGwh2tLj5C/giphy.gif)
Title: jordan pickford
Post by: niallfitz92 on January 16, 2020, 02:56:10 PM
i personally think he is the up there along with howard for best gk since southhall, who do you think is better out of these two and should we sell him this transfer window ??

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 16, 2020, 08:07:31 PM


i personally think he is the up there along with howard for best gk since southhall, who do you think is better out of these two and should we sell him this transfer window ??

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Well fuck me it shouldn't be hard to be up there when we've had the likes of Richard Wright, Sander Weterveild, Thomas Myhre, Steve Simonsen etc. Although in saying that I think Nigel Martin is the best we've had since big Nev

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Alanvideo on January 16, 2020, 08:26:42 PM

Well fuck me it shouldn't be hard to be up there when we've had the likes of Richard Wright, Sander Weterveild, Thomas Myhre, Steve Simonsen etc. Although in saying that I think Nigel Martin is the best we've had since big Nev

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.....................Nigel Martyn was streets ahead of Howard in my opinion .
Pickford doesn't seem to be progressing but maybe under Ancelotti who knows.   
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 16, 2020, 08:37:58 PM
.....................Nigel Martyn was streets ahead of Howard in my opinion .
Pickford doesn't seem to be progressing but maybe under Ancelotti who knows.
He was quality, has to go down as one of our best buys of all time

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 16, 2020, 08:48:18 PM
Nigel Martyn was superb for us, would of been our number 1 for a decade if Johnson hadn't fucked up the negotiations, the prick!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 16, 2020, 11:39:45 PM
Nigel Martyn was superb for us, would of been our number 1 for a decade if Johnson hadn't fucked up the negotiations, the prick!

Agent Johnson.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 16, 2020, 11:43:04 PM
Sander westerveld?  From the shite? 

Well fuck me it shouldn't be hard to be up there when we've had the likes of Richard Wright, Sander Weterveild, Thomas Myhre, Steve Simonsen etc. Although in saying that I think Nigel Martin is the best we've had since big Nev

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 16, 2020, 11:47:49 PM
Agent Johnson.

Yep, pretty sure he told Martyn and his agent to meet him at Park Foods, then have them directions to Leeds when the meeting was over
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 16, 2020, 11:50:49 PM
Sander westerveld?  From the shite? 
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Yes

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 17, 2020, 12:00:35 AM
Jeez,  when did we have him?
Yes

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 17, 2020, 12:04:00 AM
Jeez,  when did we have him?
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Was only on loan, around 2006 I think?  Think he played a couple of times, great times!!!

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Alanvideo on January 17, 2020, 12:16:55 AM
Was only on loan, around 2006 I think?  Think he played a couple of times, great times!!!

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..............was that around the time Richard Wright tripped over a keep clear sign or something ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 17, 2020, 12:25:53 AM
..............was that around the time Richard Wright tripped over a keep clear sign or something ?
Dunno, I remember a story of him falling out of a loft hatch and was then subsequently ruled out for a while! Had such high hopes when we signed him to and he was shit

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 17, 2020, 12:46:19 AM
..............was that around the time Richard Wright tripped over a keep clear sign or something ?

It was a keep off the grass sign... He was a right clumsy bastard, and sadly absolutely shite too 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 17, 2020, 12:47:43 AM
Was only on loan, around 2006 I think?  Think he played a couple of times, great times!!!

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I might be wrong but I think he only played one game and we got hammered 4-0 with most of them being his fault... Grim times!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 17, 2020, 01:38:38 AM
He played against Newcastle.

Nobby Solano scored a belter.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on January 19, 2020, 04:58:33 AM
I didn't see the game but highlights suggest he kept us in it at times today. I think he's had a pretty solid season considering we've been trash for most of it.

His decent performances get overlooked imo. All I hear about is how Nick Pope is an amazing keeper at Burnley and should be England number one but he made an absolute howler last week and I haven't seen it mentioned once.

Long live Pickers.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on January 19, 2020, 05:46:50 AM
Certainly kept us in it and was arguably motm.

Produced a stunning save just before half time too.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: AllyBlue14 on January 19, 2020, 05:54:47 AM
It was a keep off the grass sign... He was a right clumsy bastard, and sadly absolutely shite too 🤣

And yet somehow ended up at City a few years ago. Bizarre. Absolute liability.

Shout out to Espen Baardsen too - played one match for us and we lost 4-3 to Spurs (think we had McBride on loan too). Baardsen retired after that match, aged 25, as he'd fallen out of love with the game. Once Everton touches you....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on January 19, 2020, 12:32:21 PM
I didn't see the game but highlights suggest he kept us in it at times today. I think he's had a pretty solid season considering we've been trash for most of it.

His decent performances get overlooked imo. All I hear about is how Nick Pope is an amazing keeper at Burnley and should be England number one but he made an absolute howler last week and I haven't seen it mentioned once.

Long live Pickers.
Pope has made several absolute howlers this season - Heís not been perfect by any means but Iíd have Pickford over Pope any day.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 19, 2020, 01:44:05 PM
Pope has made several absolute howlers this season - Heís not been perfect by any means but Iíd have Pickford over Pope any day.

More Clangers than cbeebies
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Cereal Killer on January 20, 2020, 03:27:37 PM
And yet somehow ended up at City a few years ago. Bizarre. Absolute liability.

Shout out to Espen Baardsen too - played one match for us and we lost 4-3 to Spurs (think we had McBride on loan too). Baardsen retired after that match, aged 25, as he'd fallen out of love with the game. Once Everton touches you....

Espen Baardsen! Best..... keeper..... ever....

 :hmph:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 20, 2020, 03:47:58 PM
Espen Baardsen! Best..... keeper..... ever....

 :hmph:

I got him and Westerveld confused when I said the latter conceeded 4 on his one appearance for us... It was this clown, god he was bad 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 04:04:48 AM
 Because it's been mentioned in the game thread I just wanted to chime in with the Pickford shouts...

First goal I've seen people say he flapped at it... He didn't imo, it's a good ball in, there's a huge fucker leaping with him (Schar?), He gets on it what he can.  It's not like he's come out miles for it and missed it, or got a weak hand on it, it's a super difficult ball to deal with, he can't punch it straight to the edge of the area because if he does that he hits it in to the Newcastle player.

Really difficult ball that, his punch was maybe not amazing, but again contact on it was massively hampered by a) the dangerous ball in, and b) the big player jumping with him. You see he can't get a run on it to gain spring in his jump, it's not far off a standing jump, so that's why having a huge player jumping with you makes it so hard.

No idea what he's doing behind the line for the 2nd but as it's not first phase of play it's difficult to follow live as there's too much going on, will try and remember to review that tomorrow and feedback.

1st goal imo not his fault, or at the worst not a big error that caused it... 2nd Davies horror show, take two steps back and clear the initial ball in instead of waiting / hoping Holgate will do it for him.  After that it's a melee where anything can happen.  Will check Pickford's involvement in it though properly before ruling out any errors on his part.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bigl1cks on January 22, 2020, 04:11:57 AM
Just admit it, he's too small. Nothing he can do about that is there.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 22, 2020, 04:14:10 AM
Just admit it, he's too small. Nothing he can do about that is there.
I think that's the crux of it, it's no coincidence that regardless of manager and system we still cant defend corners or set pieces, it's an easy area to target

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GLewis on January 22, 2020, 04:15:28 AM
I think that's the crux of it, it's no coincidence that regardless of manager and system we still cant defend corners or set pieces, it's an easy area to target

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We concede set pieces because we donít have enough aggressive players who can head the ball.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 22, 2020, 04:18:38 AM
We concede set pieces because we don't have enough aggressive players who can head the ball.
That could be part of it, but I've anyways said one of Picks biggest flaws is his inability to command the box. Hes very good at other things, if not one of the best shot stores in the game, but I think on the flip side he's one of the worst at dealing with crosses

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 04:20:41 AM
I think that's the crux of it, it's no coincidence that regardless of manager and system we still cant defend corners or set pieces, it's an easy area to target

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There was an article in the Echo today about our defending set pieces under Silva... Nothing to do with Pickford
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 04:23:13 AM
Just admit it, he's too small. Nothing he can do about that is there.

Tricky one this when talking about this specific goal as I'll have to watch it again to see if height would have mattered.

I dont think it changed the trajectory of the punch because the same issues apply, but potentially it's looped further away to the side.

It wasn't an obvious thing if it would have helped but I'll take another closer look tomorrow.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 22, 2020, 04:23:15 AM
There was an article in the Echo today about our defending set pieces under Silva... Nothing to do with Pickford
I thought everyone on here thinks the echo talks shit!?

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on January 22, 2020, 04:29:59 AM
We concede set pieces because we donít have enough aggressive players who can head the ball.

Are you sure itís not because heís 25-50mm shorter than what some people seem as an acceptable height for a goalkeeper?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bluenuck on January 22, 2020, 04:41:56 AM
He costs, or helps cost, us points more than he helps us win points.

In other words He's not bad, but he's not great.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 22, 2020, 04:43:26 AM
I really like his shot stopping, and a lot of his distribution, but I do shit myself when a cross comes into our box.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 22, 2020, 04:47:31 AM
Hes an accident waiting to happen and has been ever since hes been here..one step forward, two back.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 22, 2020, 05:02:25 AM
Havenít seen the goals replayed but it seems like he was jumping about aimlessly flapping and creating panic.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 22, 2020, 05:06:35 AM
Havenít seen the goals replayed but it seems like he was jumping about aimlessly flapping and creating panic.

Yes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on January 22, 2020, 05:09:44 AM
Yeah. For some reason after the first shot came off the post he went well behind his goal line. No clue why but that was totally his fault.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 22, 2020, 05:15:54 AM
Hopefully he has a good euros and we can cash in.

Heís a bit rubbish isnít he?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Cozzie on January 22, 2020, 05:16:47 AM
Stuck by him but now I am starting to believe the "he's crap" shouts.

Too little.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 22, 2020, 05:17:34 AM
Stuck by him but now I am starting to believe the "he's crap" shouts.

Too little.



His size has nothing to do with it. He just isnít very good.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Cozzie on January 22, 2020, 05:19:28 AM
His size has nothing to do with it. He just isnít very good.

I think it does, doesn't command his area enough and just isn't intimidating.

People always said it about Schmeical making the goal look small. It would help if he was bigger but in essence you are right. He actually just isn't very good is he?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 22, 2020, 05:22:02 AM
Havenít seen the goals replayed but it seems like he was jumping about aimlessly flapping and creating panic.

As per usual.

Move him on if there's any rep left from the world cup, cash in.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blueToffee on January 22, 2020, 05:23:17 AM
He's good at times, but also flapping at times. Which on balance makes him rather average.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Cozzie on January 22, 2020, 05:23:37 AM
May as well start the discussion now then.

Who do we bring in as his replacement?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 22, 2020, 05:24:31 AM
Dean Henderson.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blueToffee on January 22, 2020, 05:25:59 AM
Yeah. For some reason after the first shot came off the post he went well behind his goal line. No clue why but that was totally his fault.


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The first shot came off the post, he moved to the middle, another shot came in toward goal, I think it came off the head of another player and dropped centrally, but as he was going to that shot he kinda jumped up to his right a bit and that's when he landed behind the goal line it seems like and never seemingly got back out again until it was too late. He didn't need to be there, and frankly if you look at it the shot is pretty much dead centre so if he had kept some awareness he should've saved it without much bother.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 22, 2020, 05:28:01 AM
Dean Henderson.

Yeah. Very good keeper him.

Need de gea to go as united will be stupid enough to double our money on Pickford.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on January 22, 2020, 07:47:36 AM
He might be good enough for England but heís not good enough for us.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on January 22, 2020, 11:04:39 AM
We concede set pieces because we donít have enough aggressive players who can head the ball.

Or a keeper who can take care of his 6 yard box.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on January 22, 2020, 11:06:40 AM
Hopefully he has a good euros and we can cash in.

Heís a bit rubbish isnít he?

He is loads rubbish sadly. Been two seasons now his howlers have cost us massively.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on January 22, 2020, 11:27:15 AM
I really like his shot stopping, and a lot of his distribution, but I do shit myself when a cross comes into our box.

This is it. When he is criticised for his moments of extremely poor decision making or lack of maturity (on off the field) there are some posters who defend and excuse him regardless like he is Ďone of the ladsí.  The fact is, he can make world class saves but he lacks maturity and consistency which impacts on the confidence of those in front of him.

Those world class saves are marred by his world class celebrations afterwards. Too much about show and I would much prefer a steady pair of hands like Nigel Martyn who could dominate the six yard box.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hawkandro on January 22, 2020, 02:20:48 PM
He can fuck off now for all I care. Take his shit-eating cocky grin whenever he fucks up with him, too.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 02:23:27 PM
Can we not just pick one scapegoat and stick to it? Maybe have a poll to decide it? 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on January 22, 2020, 02:27:10 PM
I am on the verge of suggesting lossl be our keeper for the rest of the season
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hawkandro on January 22, 2020, 02:27:47 PM
I am on the verge of suggesting lossl be our keeper for the rest of the season

Considering he cannot even make the bench now he is fully fit, there must be serious doubts about his ability.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 22, 2020, 02:30:58 PM
I'd be all in for Henderson or Pope, both are superb.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 22, 2020, 02:43:17 PM
I also thought his distribution last night when we were 2-0 up was poor. Numerous times he had the ball in his hands and tried to launch an early throw or kick which turned over possession yet again. No maturity in his thinking and heís no kid, heís 26.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 22, 2020, 02:43:27 PM
We concede set pieces because we donít have enough aggressive players who can head the ball.

I thought we had been good from dead balls all game as well. lots of big headers that cleared the box and a few breaks from Kean getting it on the turn.

Those last two tho were just us personified. keeper can't move through traffic and nobody is aggressive enough to claim so we're caught under it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 22, 2020, 02:46:34 PM
I also thought his distribution last night when we were 2-0 up was poor. Numerous times he had the ball in his hands and tried to launch an early throw or kick which turned over possession yet again. No maturity in his thinking and heís no kid, heís 26.

It was shocking, worst was towards the end of normal time when he tried to play it out wide to Coleman, but it went straight over is head and into touch, put us on the back foot again.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 02:56:32 PM
Ok so watching the replays now, wish I could stick this somehow before it gets lost in the moronic posts about Lossl etc taking over from him!!!

1st goal:

Corner comes in, it's about 6 yards out... Pickford's starting position is about 3 years out, so he can make very little momentum when jumping because of where the ball is coming in relation to the goal.  Schar I think it is jumps with him, but his run starts approx 8 yards out, and gives him two extra yards of momentum when attacking the ball.  That might not sound a lot but here's why that matters.

Pickford's momentum is sideways, Schar's is forward... so imagine taking a few steps sideways and jumping vs running forwards and jumping, that's quite a big difference in how you can use that momentum and how much height that means you gain.  So Schar jumping with Pickford is massively problematic for the latter because his leap is obviously going to be far superior.

He also has to punch it with his left hand because Schar's body is blocking his other hand... he probably could have still got his right hand to it but the punch would have been pretty much a nothing connection.  So he swipes it away with his left hand in the only direction possible.

He hasn't 'flapped' as people have said, the above all made it incredibly hard for him.  It also looks like Mina SHOULD have been picking him up, but as Pickford punches it Mina is behind Schar and not jumping.  So the keeper is given no protection by his defender.

Height IMO plays no part in this goal, it's a very dangerous ball in, a very tall player gets a free run at the ball / keeper and Pickford does well to get something on it, he also punches it to the side which is a less dangerous place then just flapping it out somewhere random.  He's unlucky it fell straight to a Newcastle player.  The ball isn't then hit straight in to the net, there's a blocked shot that pin balls about before the overhead kick goes in.

So it's third phase of play that results in the goal, I'd say Pickford did his job perfectly fine with this one.

The 2nd goal is a bit of an odd one... is Pickford to blame because he's behind his line, or is there just mad panic in the whole box after Davies jumps under the ball and Holgate loses his man? 

I'd love to post a screenshot of the video but no idea how?  Anyway his shape to block the 2nd shot (the one that's blocked by the defenders) is BIG and covers as much of the middle of the goal as possible... at this point he has ZERO idea of where the ball is going to go, it could deflect to one side, or the other, go back out for another shot (which happened).  As a keeper this pin ball 6-8 yards out is your worst nightmare.  So he makes himself big and as he's positioned to his left post for the first shot his momentum is back across to his right, meaning his spread / dive whilst covering the middle of the goal is actually a dive a bit to his right.  The ball comes back out, and he's found himself a bit behind the line from his momentum of diving on his line, hitting the deck and getting back up.  Should he be behind his line in this instance?  It's hard to argue either way for certain, it's not an obvious error, it's his momentum and maybe he lost a tiny bit of awareness of where he was due to the craziness in front of him.  His first instinct won't be 'am I on my line' as he gets up, it'll be 'where's the ball' which would be hard to find in the melee in front.

He actually positions himself fine apart from being a yard or so too far back, and then does brilliantly to block the next shots putting his body on the line to try and prevent a goal.

I'm putting this one down to just bad defending, panic in the box and pure bad luck... I think it's EXTREMELY harsh to blame him for the goal.  Even if you blame him for being behind his line which again I think is super harsh the panic and melee was caused by Davies and Holgate, after that anything can happen and I don't see how a keeper can be blamed for a goal which came from pinball 8 yards out.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: dazfrancis on January 22, 2020, 03:29:37 PM
Pickford has been a below average keeper for the last couple of seasons now.

Would rather we sell him and he is not the highest priority upgrade needed but he is trying to get himself to the top of that list
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: WeimaranerBlues on January 22, 2020, 03:43:48 PM
Need to watch slow mo of the action, still raging , never slept properly. Re living it  in my head,. Just seemed to be a clamity of individual errors. And some players stood around watching.

The kick-off and resulting free kick is the biggest fuck , just pass , pass , pass , game over.


Pickford v Newcastle just seems to happen.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 22, 2020, 03:47:29 PM
Second worst shot saved % in the league.

I've gone from he's not THE problem to he is A problem.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 22, 2020, 03:50:55 PM
We have more pressing positions to improve, but I'd sell him for a decent offer and get someone more reliable in.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 03:57:33 PM
Second worst shot saved % in the league.

I've gone from he's not THE problem to he is A problem.

So reading what I put above you still think he was at fault for one of or both of the goals?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: stirlingblue on January 22, 2020, 03:58:16 PM
Why do people think weíll get a decent offer for him?

Classic Everton fans, Ďheís shit, letís sell him for £40mí
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 22, 2020, 03:59:03 PM
Again it's all well and good for us to say sell him, but who would wanna buy him, that's the big problem here, same with most of our players right now
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 22, 2020, 04:03:26 PM
So reading what I put above you still think he was at fault for one of or both of the goals?

He doesnít have to be at fault for him to be questioned about goals heís conceded.

I still havenít seen them and Iím the other end of the ground but fuck me there was a lot of flapping a jumping about going on from him.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 04:05:17 PM
He doesnít have to be at fault for him to be questioned about goals heís conceded.

I still havenít seen them and Iím the other end of the ground but fuck me there was a lot of flapping a jumping about going on from him.

Here you go :)

youtube.com/watch?v=EbV6FR7d74g

Then read my assessment above and let me know your thoughts.  BTW I had to watch each several times rapidly pressing pause and unpause to make the post I have, so try and do the same at the key points I've highlighted as I feel what I've written stacks up.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 22, 2020, 04:05:27 PM
Heís at fault for the first. The second I havenít seen back. Canít really face it. Need a few days off the disappointment
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 22, 2020, 04:05:39 PM
So reading what I put above you still think he was at fault for one of or both of the goals?

I think fault could he harsh as nobody covered themselves in glory and fault/blame is an over simplistic way of viewing football, a complex team game.

but I think it's not up for debate that he is having another patch of bad form, and you have to say a bad season.

Teams are targeting him at dead balls now and it is working.

Sell him for someone steady and competent hit not spectacular and we will be better off.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Ramjam on January 22, 2020, 04:08:01 PM
Why do people think we'll get a decent offer for him?

Classic Everton fans, "he's shit, let's sell him for £40m'
Liverpool get £20m for fringe players, heís Englandís number one so £40m should be the least we get for him even though heís shite


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on January 22, 2020, 04:10:21 PM
Liverpool get £20m for fringe players, heís Englandís number one so £40m should be the least we get for him even though heís shite


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Doubt he will be Englands no.1 much longer at this rate, not saying he was at fault last night just that the public perception of him is increasingly negative.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 04:10:49 PM
I think fault could he harsh as nobody covered themselves in glory and fault/blame is an over simplistic way of viewing football, a complex team game.

but I think it's not up for debate that he is having another patch of bad form, and you have to say a bad season.

Teams are targeting him at dead balls now and it is working.

Sell him for someone steady and competent hit not spectacular and we will be better off.

They may have targeted him on the first one but if Mina does his job it's not an issue, Pickford is on a hiding to nothing with that one as Schar gets a free run on him.

Honestly don't see how anyone can blame or even slight him for yesterday's horror show.  His form for me is fine, it's not spectacular, it's not shite, it's about what I'd expect of a keeper his age.  He needs to mature mentally but he's still young for a keeper.  He'll be fine long term, I don't see any reason to get rid of him for a steady eddy keeper.

I think people end up looking for fault in certain players once they've made their mind up about them, they magnify things that aren't even issues and make them something they aren't.

Sort the rest of the team first, no keeper can cope with pin ball 8 yards out, the defence and midfield need to do their job properly and then less goals go in.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 22, 2020, 04:15:04 PM
Liverpool get £20m for fringe players, heís Englandís number one so £40m should be the least we get for him even though heís shite


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Nobody will pay 40 million for him, that's the problem, none of our players have any sort of decent sell on value, Pickford included
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 22, 2020, 04:34:33 PM
Liverpool get £20m for fringe players, he’s England’s number one so £40m should be the least we get for him even though he’s shite


Sent from my iPhone using NSNO Everton Forums (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88121)

Who from?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 22, 2020, 04:39:49 PM
Second worst shot saved % in the league.

I've gone from he's not THE problem to he is A problem.
People have blamed the defence in front of him for ages, but he is part of the problem and a big part of why our defence has been so jittery.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TSGun on January 22, 2020, 04:40:02 PM
I'd like Mat Ryan.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 04:47:46 PM
I'd like Mat Ryan.

Why?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 04:49:53 PM
People have blamed the defence in front of him for ages, but he is part of the problem and a bit part of why our defence has been so jittery.

The defence were jittery on the 2nd goal not because of Pickford though, but because Davies jumped under the ball and Holgate lost his man.  So I think people are looking for things that aren't there.  The first goal Mina left Schar to have a free run and jump at Pickford, is that Pickford's fault? Nope!  Shit defending by Mina that then leads to chaos in the penalty area.

Both goals came from pinball 6-8 years out, neither despite the panic were Pickford's doing, it's the defence on both goals at fault.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 04:50:48 PM
Just going to re-post this as it's dropped a couple of pages and is what people need to read about the goals last night:

Ok so watching the replays now, wish I could stick this somehow before it gets lost in the moronic posts about Lossl etc taking over from him!!!

1st goal:

Corner comes in, it's about 6 yards out... Pickford's starting position is about 3 years out, so he can make very little momentum when jumping because of where the ball is coming in relation to the goal.  Schar I think it is jumps with him, but his run starts approx 8 yards out, and gives him two extra yards of momentum when attacking the ball.  That might not sound a lot but here's why that matters.

Pickford's momentum is sideways, Schar's is forward... so imagine taking a few steps sideways and jumping vs running forwards and jumping, that's quite a big difference in how you can use that momentum and how much height that means you gain.  So Schar jumping with Pickford is massively problematic for the latter because his leap is obviously going to be far superior.

He also has to punch it with his left hand because Schar's body is blocking his other hand... he probably could have still got his right hand to it but the punch would have been pretty much a nothing connection.  So he swipes it away with his left hand in the only direction possible.

He hasn't 'flapped' as people have said, the above all made it incredibly hard for him.  It also looks like Mina SHOULD have been picking him up, but as Pickford punches it Mina is behind Schar and not jumping.  So the keeper is given no protection by his defender.

Height IMO plays no part in this goal, it's a very dangerous ball in, a very tall player gets a free run at the ball / keeper and Pickford does well to get something on it, he also punches it to the side which is a less dangerous place then just flapping it out somewhere random.  He's unlucky it fell straight to a Newcastle player.  The ball isn't then hit straight in to the net, there's a blocked shot that pin balls about before the overhead kick goes in.

So it's third phase of play that results in the goal, I'd say Pickford did his job perfectly fine with this one.

The 2nd goal is a bit of an odd one... is Pickford to blame because he's behind his line, or is there just mad panic in the whole box after Davies jumps under the ball and Holgate loses his man? 

I'd love to post a screenshot of the video but no idea how?  Anyway his shape to block the 2nd shot (the one that's blocked by the defenders) is BIG and covers as much of the middle of the goal as possible... at this point he has ZERO idea of where the ball is going to go, it could deflect to one side, or the other, go back out for another shot (which happened).  As a keeper this pin ball 6-8 yards out is your worst nightmare.  So he makes himself big and as he's positioned to his left post for the first shot his momentum is back across to his right, meaning his spread / dive whilst covering the middle of the goal is actually a dive a bit to his right.  The ball comes back out, and he's found himself a bit behind the line from his momentum of diving on his line, hitting the deck and getting back up.  Should he be behind his line in this instance?  It's hard to argue either way for certain, it's not an obvious error, it's his momentum and maybe he lost a tiny bit of awareness of where he was due to the craziness in front of him.  His first instinct won't be 'am I on my line' as he gets up, it'll be 'where's the ball' which would be hard to find in the melee in front.

He actually positions himself fine apart from being a yard or so too far back, and then does brilliantly to block the next shots putting his body on the line to try and prevent a goal.

I'm putting this one down to just bad defending, panic in the box and pure bad luck... I think it's EXTREMELY harsh to blame him for the goal.  Even if you blame him for being behind his line which again I think is super harsh the panic and melee was caused by Davies and Holgate, after that anything can happen and I don't see how a keeper can be blamed for a goal which came from pinball 8 yards out.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 22, 2020, 04:57:26 PM
Just going to re-post this as it's dropped a couple of pages and is what people need to read about the goals last night:

Ok so watching the replays now, wish I could stick this somehow before it gets lost in the moronic posts about Lossl etc taking over from him!!!

1st goal:

Corner comes in, it's about 6 yards out... Pickford's starting position is about 3 years out, so he can make very little momentum when jumping because of where the ball is coming in relation to the goal.  Schar I think it is jumps with him, but his run starts approx 8 yards out, and gives him two extra yards of momentum when attacking the ball.  That might not sound a lot but here's why that matters.

Pickford's momentum is sideways, Schar's is forward... so imagine taking a few steps sideways and jumping vs running forwards and jumping, that's quite a big difference in how you can use that momentum and how much height that means you gain.  So Schar jumping with Pickford is massively problematic for the latter because his leap is obviously going to be far superior.

He also has to punch it with his left hand because Schar's body is blocking his other hand... he probably could have still got his right hand to it but the punch would have been pretty much a nothing connection.  So he swipes it away with his left hand in the only direction possible.

He hasn't 'flapped' as people have said, the above all made it incredibly hard for him.  It also looks like Mina SHOULD have been picking him up, but as Pickford punches it Mina is behind Schar and not jumping.  So the keeper is given no protection by his defender.

Height IMO plays no part in this goal, it's a very dangerous ball in, a very tall player gets a free run at the ball / keeper and Pickford does well to get something on it, he also punches it to the side which is a less dangerous place then just flapping it out somewhere random.  He's unlucky it fell straight to a Newcastle player.  The ball isn't then hit straight in to the net, there's a blocked shot that pin balls about before the overhead kick goes in.

So it's third phase of play that results in the goal, I'd say Pickford did his job perfectly fine with this one.

The 2nd goal is a bit of an odd one... is Pickford to blame because he's behind his line, or is there just mad panic in the whole box after Davies jumps under the ball and Holgate loses his man? 

I'd love to post a screenshot of the video but no idea how?  Anyway his shape to block the 2nd shot (the one that's blocked by the defenders) is BIG and covers as much of the middle of the goal as possible... at this point he has ZERO idea of where the ball is going to go, it could deflect to one side, or the other, go back out for another shot (which happened).  As a keeper this pin ball 6-8 yards out is your worst nightmare.  So he makes himself big and as he's positioned to his left post for the first shot his momentum is back across to his right, meaning his spread / dive whilst covering the middle of the goal is actually a dive a bit to his right.  The ball comes back out, and he's found himself a bit behind the line from his momentum of diving on his line, hitting the deck and getting back up.  Should he be behind his line in this instance?  It's hard to argue either way for certain, it's not an obvious error, it's his momentum and maybe he lost a tiny bit of awareness of where he was due to the craziness in front of him.  His first instinct won't be 'am I on my line' as he gets up, it'll be 'where's the ball' which would be hard to find in the melee in front.

He actually positions himself fine apart from being a yard or so too far back, and then does brilliantly to block the next shots putting his body on the line to try and prevent a goal.

I'm putting this one down to just bad defending, panic in the box and pure bad luck... I think it's EXTREMELY harsh to blame him for the goal.  Even if you blame him for being behind his line which again I think is super harsh the panic and melee was caused by Davies and Holgate, after that anything can happen and I don't see how a keeper can be blamed for a goal which came from pinball 8 yards out.


Fucking hell are you his mum? He flaps all the bloody time. Did it against Brighton and Holgate cleared it off the line. Pushes stuff back into dangerous areas and boots away possession over and over again. Heís a bloody idiot. No football intelligence. Maybe you donít blame him for the goals but he wasnít very good on either of them
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 22, 2020, 04:59:27 PM
The defence were jittery on the 2nd goal not because of Pickford though, but because Davies jumped under the ball and Holgate lost his man.  So I think people are looking for things that aren't there.  The first goal Mina left Schar to have a free run and jump at Pickford, is that Pickford's fault? Nope!  Shit defending by Mina that then leads to chaos in the penalty area.

Both goals came from pinball 6-8 years out, neither despite the panic were Pickford's doing, it's the defence on both goals at fault.
It was more a general observation Andy, not really specifically relating to last night, but I think you are being very generous to him in your assessment of especially the 1st goal.

It's hard for a defence to be settled when the goalkeeper behind isnt a good communicator and is on the beak/is so erratic.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on January 22, 2020, 05:00:45 PM
He doesn't have to be at fault for him to be questioned about goals he's conceded.

I still haven't seen them and I'm the other end of the ground but fuck me there was a lot of flapping a jumping about going on from him.
He deffo caused the first goal if you come out to punch you have to get good contact he didnít because of his lack of height and power imo
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 05:07:43 PM
He deffo caused the first goal if you come out to punch you have to get good contact he didnít because of his lack of height and power imo

Nope it's because Mina left Schar to have a running jump at Pickford / the ball... he got a reasonable contact on it, pushed it to the side, after that it's pinball.  Mina 100% at fault, no keeper can survive someone the size of Schar having a free running jump at them and somehow punch the ball 15 yards!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 22, 2020, 06:02:56 PM
Blimey, itís gone proper goalkeepers union in here.

 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 22, 2020, 07:39:29 PM
Just going to re-post this as it's dropped a couple of pages and is what people need to read about the goals last night:

Ok so watching the replays now, wish I could stick this somehow before it gets lost in the moronic posts about Lossl etc taking over from him!!!

1st goal:

Corner comes in, it's about 6 yards out... Pickford's starting position is about 3 years out, so he can make very little momentum when jumping because of where the ball is coming in relation to the goal.  Schar I think it is jumps with him, but his run starts approx 8 yards out, and gives him two extra yards of momentum when attacking the ball.  That might not sound a lot but here's why that matters.

Pickford's momentum is sideways, Schar's is forward... so imagine taking a few steps sideways and jumping vs running forwards and jumping, that's quite a big difference in how you can use that momentum and how much height that means you gain.  So Schar jumping with Pickford is massively problematic for the latter because his leap is obviously going to be far superior.

He also has to punch it with his left hand because Schar's body is blocking his other hand... he probably could have still got his right hand to it but the punch would have been pretty much a nothing connection.  So he swipes it away with his left hand in the only direction possible.

He hasn't 'flapped' as people have said, the above all made it incredibly hard for him.  It also looks like Mina SHOULD have been picking him up, but as Pickford punches it Mina is behind Schar and not jumping.  So the keeper is given no protection by his defender.

Height IMO plays no part in this goal, it's a very dangerous ball in, a very tall player gets a free run at the ball / keeper and Pickford does well to get something on it, he also punches it to the side which is a less dangerous place then just flapping it out somewhere random.  He's unlucky it fell straight to a Newcastle player.  The ball isn't then hit straight in to the net, there's a blocked shot that pin balls about before the overhead kick goes in.

So it's third phase of play that results in the goal, I'd say Pickford did his job perfectly fine with this one.

The 2nd goal is a bit of an odd one... is Pickford to blame because he's behind his line, or is there just mad panic in the whole box after Davies jumps under the ball and Holgate loses his man? 

I'd love to post a screenshot of the video but no idea how?  Anyway his shape to block the 2nd shot (the one that's blocked by the defenders) is BIG and covers as much of the middle of the goal as possible... at this point he has ZERO idea of where the ball is going to go, it could deflect to one side, or the other, go back out for another shot (which happened).  As a keeper this pin ball 6-8 yards out is your worst nightmare.  So he makes himself big and as he's positioned to his left post for the first shot his momentum is back across to his right, meaning his spread / dive whilst covering the middle of the goal is actually a dive a bit to his right.  The ball comes back out, and he's found himself a bit behind the line from his momentum of diving on his line, hitting the deck and getting back up.  Should he be behind his line in this instance?  It's hard to argue either way for certain, it's not an obvious error, it's his momentum and maybe he lost a tiny bit of awareness of where he was due to the craziness in front of him.  His first instinct won't be 'am I on my line' as he gets up, it'll be 'where's the ball' which would be hard to find in the melee in front.

He actually positions himself fine apart from being a yard or so too far back, and then does brilliantly to block the next shots putting his body on the line to try and prevent a goal.

I'm putting this one down to just bad defending, panic in the box and pure bad luck... I think it's EXTREMELY harsh to blame him for the goal.  Even if you blame him for being behind his line which again I think is super harsh the panic and melee was caused by Davies and Holgate, after that anything can happen and I don't see how a keeper can be blamed for a goal which came from pinball 8 yards out.

The only bit you missed there was the initial first reaction save right at the start with his hand on the near post..if he hadn't of done that it would've been a goal without the defending mess that ensued...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 07:42:19 PM
The only bit you missed there was the initial first reaction save right at the start with his hand on the near post..if he hadn't of done that it would've been a goal without the defending mess that ensued...

Good spot, tbh I hadn't noticed he got a touch, so really that's a tremendous save... shame people see only what they want to.  The agenda has been created and so he's screwed regardless.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 22, 2020, 07:47:38 PM
exactly mate....it was a great save... at first from the park end I thought it hit the post tbhÖ


suppose he should've caught it.... :snigger:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 08:07:10 PM
exactly mate....it was a great save... at first from the park end I thought it hit the post tbhÖ


suppose he should've caught it.... :snigger:

Flapped at it didn't he, and if he was longer he tips it around the post... need to get Lossl in nets from now on, at least he doesn't try and save them so looks less culpable :D
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on January 22, 2020, 08:31:02 PM
Ok so watching the replays now, wish I could stick this somehow before it gets lost in the moronic posts about Lossl etc taking over from him!!!

1st goal:

Corner comes in, it's about 6 yards out... Pickford's starting position is about 3 years out, so he can make very little momentum when jumping because of where the ball is coming in relation to the goal.  Schar I think it is jumps with him, but his run starts approx 8 yards out, and gives him two extra yards of momentum when attacking the ball.  That might not sound a lot but here's why that matters.

Pickford's momentum is sideways, Schar's is forward... so imagine taking a few steps sideways and jumping vs running forwards and jumping, that's quite a big difference in how you can use that momentum and how much height that means you gain.  So Schar jumping with Pickford is massively problematic for the latter because his leap is obviously going to be far superior.

He also has to punch it with his left hand because Schar's body is blocking his other hand... he probably could have still got his right hand to it but the punch would have been pretty much a nothing connection.  So he swipes it away with his left hand in the only direction possible.

He hasn't 'flapped' as people have said, the above all made it incredibly hard for him.  It also looks like Mina SHOULD have been picking him up, but as Pickford punches it Mina is behind Schar and not jumping.  So the keeper is given no protection by his defender.

Height IMO plays no part in this goal, it's a very dangerous ball in, a very tall player gets a free run at the ball / keeper and Pickford does well to get something on it, he also punches it to the side which is a less dangerous place then just flapping it out somewhere random.  He's unlucky it fell straight to a Newcastle player.  The ball isn't then hit straight in to the net, there's a blocked shot that pin balls about before the overhead kick goes in.

So it's third phase of play that results in the goal, I'd say Pickford did his job perfectly fine with this one.

The 2nd goal is a bit of an odd one... is Pickford to blame because he's behind his line, or is there just mad panic in the whole box after Davies jumps under the ball and Holgate loses his man? 

I'd love to post a screenshot of the video but no idea how?  Anyway his shape to block the 2nd shot (the one that's blocked by the defenders) is BIG and covers as much of the middle of the goal as possible... at this point he has ZERO idea of where the ball is going to go, it could deflect to one side, or the other, go back out for another shot (which happened).  As a keeper this pin ball 6-8 yards out is your worst nightmare.  So he makes himself big and as he's positioned to his left post for the first shot his momentum is back across to his right, meaning his spread / dive whilst covering the middle of the goal is actually a dive a bit to his right.  The ball comes back out, and he's found himself a bit behind the line from his momentum of diving on his line, hitting the deck and getting back up.  Should he be behind his line in this instance?  It's hard to argue either way for certain, it's not an obvious error, it's his momentum and maybe he lost a tiny bit of awareness of where he was due to the craziness in front of him.  His first instinct won't be 'am I on my line' as he gets up, it'll be 'where's the ball' which would be hard to find in the melee in front.

He actually positions himself fine apart from being a yard or so too far back, and then does brilliantly to block the next shots putting his body on the line to try and prevent a goal.

I'm putting this one down to just bad defending, panic in the box and pure bad luck... I think it's EXTREMELY harsh to blame him for the goal.  Even if you blame him for being behind his line which again I think is super harsh the panic and melee was caused by Davies and Holgate, after that anything can happen and I don't see how a keeper can be blamed for a goal which came from pinball 8 yards out.

Your major flaw here especially with the first goal is that goalkeepers can use their hands. Gives you as a keeper a massive reach advantage and has nothing to do with leap unless you not fit or strong enough to leap from a starting position. Totally his fault.

2nd goal, your positioning is not good if you behind the line. In what world is it ok for a goalkeeper to not be in a position to make a save. And if you look, he made the save, just two yards past the goal line.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 08:37:38 PM
Your major flaw here especially with the first goal is that goalkeepers can use their hands. Gives you as a keeper a massive reach advantage and has nothing to do with leap unless you not fit or strong enough to leap from a starting position. Totally his fault.

2nd goal, your positioning is not good if you behind the line. In what world is it ok for a goalkeeper to not be in a position to make a save. And if you look, he made the save, just two yards past the goal line.



Well you're plain wrong but hey ho... if someone runs forwards and leaps they'll get a much bigger leap then someone taking a step sideways and then jumping, so hands don't actually matter, because the person running forwards and leaping has a leap that negates that... but you know, if it doesn't fit the agenda...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Silas on January 22, 2020, 08:50:44 PM
It was poor defending and goalkeeping for me but I don't blame Pickford for the goals as it shouldn't have got near that
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 22, 2020, 09:19:39 PM
Both goals were down to a collective, shit yourself mentality, that dovetailed with various playersí deficiencies to produce a humiliating double horror show.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on January 22, 2020, 09:24:06 PM
I don't even think Pickford does anything wrong with the equaliser. He's only behind his goal because of a previous dive. The fact we allowed the ball through was the issue.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 09:28:13 PM
I don't even think Pickford does anything wrong with the equaliser. He's only behind his goal because of a previous dive. The fact we allowed the ball through was the issue.

Exactly, he's saved the first shot, ran across and dived to block another shot that he really has no idea where it's going, lands, stands up quickly to try and block the next, yet in all that he's ended up a couple of yards back... it's not poor positioning, it's just circumstance.  It's not like he's got time to position himself and work it all out, he immediately has to get up with the only thing on his mind being 'where's the ball and where's it going'. 

Only problem is people either don't understand goalkeeping, or make their minds up about something on the spot and don't go back and study the replays, or they have an agenda and it's easier to blame Pickford instead of the clusterfuck defending of Mina on the first, and Holgate and Davies on the 2nd.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 22, 2020, 09:31:02 PM
Just going to re-post this as it's dropped a couple of pages and is what people need to read about the goals last night:

Ok so watching the replays now, wish I could stick this somehow before it gets lost in the moronic posts about Lossl etc taking over from him!!!

1st goal:

Corner comes in, it's about 6 yards out... Pickford's starting position is about 3 years out, so he can make very little momentum when jumping because of where the ball is coming in relation to the goal.  Schar I think it is jumps with him, but his run starts approx 8 yards out, and gives him two extra yards of momentum when attacking the ball.  That might not sound a lot but here's why that matters.

Pickford's momentum is sideways, Schar's is forward... so imagine taking a few steps sideways and jumping vs running forwards and jumping, that's quite a big difference in how you can use that momentum and how much height that means you gain.  So Schar jumping with Pickford is massively problematic for the latter because his leap is obviously going to be far superior.

He also has to punch it with his left hand because Schar's body is blocking his other hand... he probably could have still got his right hand to it but the punch would have been pretty much a nothing connection.  So he swipes it away with his left hand in the only direction possible.

He hasn't 'flapped' as people have said, the above all made it incredibly hard for him.  It also looks like Mina SHOULD have been picking him up, but as Pickford punches it Mina is behind Schar and not jumping.  So the keeper is given no protection by his defender.

Height IMO plays no part in this goal, it's a very dangerous ball in, a very tall player gets a free run at the ball / keeper and Pickford does well to get something on it, he also punches it to the side which is a less dangerous place then just flapping it out somewhere random.  He's unlucky it fell straight to a Newcastle player.  The ball isn't then hit straight in to the net, there's a blocked shot that pin balls about before the overhead kick goes in.

So it's third phase of play that results in the goal, I'd say Pickford did his job perfectly fine with this one.

The 2nd goal is a bit of an odd one... is Pickford to blame because he's behind his line, or is there just mad panic in the whole box after Davies jumps under the ball and Holgate loses his man? 

I'd love to post a screenshot of the video but no idea how?  Anyway his shape to block the 2nd shot (the one that's blocked by the defenders) is BIG and covers as much of the middle of the goal as possible... at this point he has ZERO idea of where the ball is going to go, it could deflect to one side, or the other, go back out for another shot (which happened).  As a keeper this pin ball 6-8 yards out is your worst nightmare.  So he makes himself big and as he's positioned to his left post for the first shot his momentum is back across to his right, meaning his spread / dive whilst covering the middle of the goal is actually a dive a bit to his right.  The ball comes back out, and he's found himself a bit behind the line from his momentum of diving on his line, hitting the deck and getting back up.  Should he be behind his line in this instance?  It's hard to argue either way for certain, it's not an obvious error, it's his momentum and maybe he lost a tiny bit of awareness of where he was due to the craziness in front of him.  His first instinct won't be 'am I on my line' as he gets up, it'll be 'where's the ball' which would be hard to find in the melee in front.

He actually positions himself fine apart from being a yard or so too far back, and then does brilliantly to block the next shots putting his body on the line to try and prevent a goal.

I'm putting this one down to just bad defending, panic in the box and pure bad luck... I think it's EXTREMELY harsh to blame him for the goal.  Even if you blame him for being behind his line which again I think is super harsh the panic and melee was caused by Davies and Holgate, after that anything can happen and I don't see how a keeper can be blamed for a goal which came from pinball 8 yards out.
He was behind the line for the 2nd goal.

Nobody pushed him, he didnt save a shot and then fall behind the line, he just jumped there.

I'd say the number one bit of advice to a 6 year old starting out as a goalkeeper would be "stand in front of the line".

It's a glaring error. Get out of his arse.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 09:35:18 PM
He was behind the line for the 2nd goal.

Nobody pushed him, he didnt save a shot and then fall behind the line, he just jumped there.

I'd say the number one bit of advice to a 6 year old starting out as a goalkeeper would be "stand in front of the line".

It's a glaring error. Get out of his arse.

Ok so taking your point above about him not saving a shot, just 'jumped' behind the line... if he's saved that shot as it came through (the 2nd one that's blocked by the defenders), would you say it was ok then for him to be behind the line?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Alanvideo on January 22, 2020, 09:40:09 PM
He was behind the line for the 2nd goal.

Nobody pushed him, he didnt save a shot and then fall behind the line, he just jumped there.

I'd say the number one bit of advice to a 6 year old starting out as a goalkeeper would be "stand in front of the line".

It's a glaring error. Get out of his arse.
........................come on be fair ,he only went behind the line because the goalmouth was full of about 20 players  lolol
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 22, 2020, 09:41:22 PM
 :eh:

https://twitter.com/wfanalyst/status/1219772389401288706
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on January 22, 2020, 09:46:16 PM
:eh:

https://twitter.com/wfanalyst/status/1219772389401288706

Pointless statistic.

No indication of number of shots faced or the quality of shots faced.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 09:57:53 PM
Pointless statistic.

No indication of number of shots faced or the quality of shots faced.

Pope 1% better and half the forum seem to keep saying they want him instead... how many extra points does 1% get you? 😂

Also I agree the stats mean nothing by and large, and also again half the forum say he's great at shot stopping anyway and it's the other side of his game that's not good enough, anyone have a stat for 'least crosses flapped at' as that seems to be what people's arguments are... or 'number of times keeper is behind his line per game'?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 22, 2020, 10:01:00 PM
Just watched the replays.

Heís poor on both goals. A composed, commanding goalkeeper keeps a clean sheet there for me.

Why heís felt the need to jump into his goal to save a shot with ten bodies infront of him is beyond me.

As Iíve said, from my view in the ground it looked like there was a lot of flapping and needless jumping going on from him and it spread panic throughout the team when defending those set pieces.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on January 22, 2020, 10:02:47 PM
Wasnít solely responsible, but shouldíve done better for both goals. Add that to all the other mistakes and the lapses in concentration over his time here, heís obviously another weak link.

Weíve conceded the most goals from direct freekicks, in the league. Heís dreadful when facing freekicks; always 2nd guessing and putting weight on the wrong leg before having to adjust and try and get over to the shot.

Too short, poor focus and has technical shortcomings heís still not addressed.

Iíve never been that hard on him but heís simply not good enough for where we want to be. Replacing him isnít the biggest priority but it needs to happen sooner or later. Thereís a reason why fans at other clubs think heís shit. I donít know a single non-Evertonian, that rates him.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 22, 2020, 10:03:37 PM
Pointless statistic.

No indication of number of shots faced or the quality of shots faced.

exactly....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 22, 2020, 10:03:39 PM
Wish people would stop saying heís a great shot stopper.

For one, he isnít.

For two, that sentence makes no sense. Itís just something people seem to come out with all the time when they want to say something about goalkeepers without really knowing what theyíre talking about.

Does my head in.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 22, 2020, 10:05:26 PM
Pointless statistic.

No indication of number of shots faced or the quality of shots faced.

It doesn't take a whole lot of time to go compare goals conceded to saves for each keeper, since those 2 combined = shots on target. If you do, it'll quickly reveal that this statistic is anything but pointless.

You can talk about quality of shot, but xGA pretty much captures that (as close as can be). We've conceded 6 more goals than we should have. I know a lot refuse to consider the importance of these metrics, or their validity I suppose. That's up to you.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 22, 2020, 10:09:56 PM
It doesn't take a whole lot of time to go compare goals conceded to saves for each keeper, since those 2 combined = shots on target. If you do, it'll quickly reveal that this statistic is anything but pointless.

You can talk about quality of shot, but xGA pretty much captures that (as close as can be). We've conceded 6 more goals than we should have. I know a lot refuse to consider the importance of these metrics, or their validity I suppose. That's up to you.

based on that logic and the stats table then Allison has twice/treble amount of shots at him than pickford then ? is that what your saying
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 10:11:30 PM
It doesn't take a whole lot of time to go compare goals conceded to saves for each keeper, since those 2 combined = shots on target. If you do, it'll quickly reveal that this statistic is anything but pointless.

You can talk about quality of shot, but xGA pretty much captures that (as close as can be). We've conceded 6 more goals than we should have. I know a lot refuse to consider the importance of these metrics, or their validity I suppose. That's up to you.

The issue with the XG is that if you asked most on here they'd argue Pickford was at fault for both goals, and as per my explanation he wasn't.  It's a tough metric to really understand as we don't know specifically how it's being judged.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 10:12:55 PM
Just watched the replays.

Heís poor on both goals. A composed, commanding goalkeeper keeps a clean sheet there for me.

Why heís felt the need to jump into his goal to save a shot with ten bodies infront of him is beyond me.

As Iíve said, from my view in the ground it looked like there was a lot of flapping and needless jumping going on from him and it spread panic throughout the team when defending those set pieces.



Not sure how you can say he flapped at the first one when Mina left Schar completely unchecked and allowed him to have a clear run and jump on Pickford... I've posted a lengthy explanation a couple of times now, it's all in there. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 10:14:19 PM
Last time I'll post this, but here's the replays and my analysis below, agree or not, at the very least read what I've wrote and compare it to the video -






Ok so watching the replays now, wish I could stick this somehow before it gets lost in the moronic posts about Lossl etc taking over from him!!!

1st goal:

Corner comes in, it's about 6 yards out... Pickford's starting position is about 3 years out, so he can make very little momentum when jumping because of where the ball is coming in relation to the goal.  Schar I think it is jumps with him, but his run starts approx 8 yards out, and gives him two extra yards of momentum when attacking the ball.  That might not sound a lot but here's why that matters.

Pickford's momentum is sideways, Schar's is forward... so imagine taking a few steps sideways and jumping vs running forwards and jumping, that's quite a big difference in how you can use that momentum and how much height that means you gain.  So Schar jumping with Pickford is massively problematic for the latter because his leap is obviously going to be far superior.

He also has to punch it with his left hand because Schar's body is blocking his other hand... he probably could have still got his right hand to it but the punch would have been pretty much a nothing connection.  So he swipes it away with his left hand in the only direction possible.

He hasn't 'flapped' as people have said, the above all made it incredibly hard for him.  It also looks like Mina SHOULD have been picking him up, but as Pickford punches it Mina is behind Schar and not jumping.  So the keeper is given no protection by his defender.

Height IMO plays no part in this goal, it's a very dangerous ball in, a very tall player gets a free run at the ball / keeper and Pickford does well to get something on it, he also punches it to the side which is a less dangerous place then just flapping it out somewhere random.  He's unlucky it fell straight to a Newcastle player.  The ball isn't then hit straight in to the net, there's a blocked shot that pin balls about before the overhead kick goes in.

So it's third phase of play that results in the goal, I'd say Pickford did his job perfectly fine with this one.

The 2nd goal is a bit of an odd one... is Pickford to blame because he's behind his line, or is there just mad panic in the whole box after Davies jumps under the ball and Holgate loses his man? 

I'd love to post a screenshot of the video but no idea how?  Anyway his shape to block the 2nd shot (the one that's blocked by the defenders) is BIG and covers as much of the middle of the goal as possible... at this point he has ZERO idea of where the ball is going to go, it could deflect to one side, or the other, go back out for another shot (which happened).  As a keeper this pin ball 6-8 yards out is your worst nightmare.  So he makes himself big and as he's positioned to his left post for the first shot his momentum is back across to his right, meaning his spread / dive whilst covering the middle of the goal is actually a dive a bit to his right.  The ball comes back out, and he's found himself a bit behind the line from his momentum of diving on his line, hitting the deck and getting back up.  Should he be behind his line in this instance?  It's hard to argue either way for certain, it's not an obvious error, it's his momentum and maybe he lost a tiny bit of awareness of where he was due to the craziness in front of him.  His first instinct won't be 'am I on my line' as he gets up, it'll be 'where's the ball' which would be hard to find in the melee in front.

He actually positions himself fine apart from being a yard or so too far back, and then does brilliantly to block the next shots putting his body on the line to try and prevent a goal.

I'm putting this one down to just bad defending, panic in the box and pure bad luck... I think it's EXTREMELY harsh to blame him for the goal.  Even if you blame him for being behind his line which again I think is super harsh the panic and melee was caused by Davies and Holgate, after that anything can happen and I don't see how a keeper can be blamed for a goal which came from pinball 8 yards out.

[/quote]
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on January 22, 2020, 10:16:23 PM
Nope it's because Mina left Schar to have a running jump at Pickford / the ball... he got a reasonable contact on it, pushed it to the side, after that it's pinball.  Mina 100% at fault, no keeper can survive someone the size of Schar having a free running jump at them and somehow punch the ball 15 yards!
Thatís bull Pickford flaps all the time he is fucking mental a liability in our goals we need much better imo
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 10:18:56 PM
Thatís bull Pickford flaps all the time he is fucking mental a liability in our goals we need much better imo

Great analytical response!

So Mina didn't leave Schar unchecked when he should be picking him up from the corner?

Well ok then! 😒
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on January 22, 2020, 10:19:55 PM
I just heard a quote from Klopp on Allison, who is probably the best in the world right now. "he is a calm guy, not easy to excite"  Here we have the exact opposite in Jordan Pickford. He has made good improvements this season but he seems to flap at anything in the six yard box.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 22, 2020, 10:21:19 PM
I don't blame him for either goal tbhÖ.both 6 yards and less out...bodies all in front him..... not many keepers save many...from there unless theyre lucky..

he makes a dive for a shot in anticipation of the ball getting through...the shot gets blocked by a body....if he just stands there and the shot goes directly in..he'll get slaughtered for not making an effort.....goalies cant win....damned if they do.... damned if they don't..

for me it shouldn't have got to a point where he had to make any saves at that time....very poor from the outfield players in front of him...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 22, 2020, 10:25:32 PM
based on that logic and the stats table then Allison has twice/treble amount of shots at him than pickford then ? is that what your saying

Kind of hard to use Allison because 1) he hasn't played in 8 of their 22 matches, and 2) as a team, they've only conceded 14 goals, period. You could say that Allison would have given up 8 goals on 48 shots over 22 matches had he played them all.

But the better examples are guys like Leno, Dubravka, Schmeichel, and others who've faced a mountain of shots thus far, and conceded about the same number of goals as Pickford. By way of comparison:

Pickford 61 saves, 35 goals (96 shots on target faced) = 64% save
vs
Dubravka 99 saves, 36 goals (135 shots) = 73%
Leno 91 saves, 34 goals (125 shots) = 73%
Schmeichel 63 saves, 23 goals (86) = 73%
Mat Ryan 83 saves, 34 goals (117) = 71%
Ramsdale 80 saves, 34 goals (114) = 70%

More saves, fewer goals. It's not long division here.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 22, 2020, 10:26:35 PM
The issue with the XG is that if you asked most on here they'd argue Pickford was at fault for both goals, and as per my explanation he wasn't.  It's a tough metric to really understand as we don't know specifically how it's being judged.

We mostly know exactly how it's calculated, but I'm not going through that again lol.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 22, 2020, 10:28:25 PM
Kind of hard to use Allison because 1) he hasn't played in 8 of their 22 matches, and 2) as a team, they've only conceded 14 goals, period. You could say that Allison would have given up 8 goals on 48 shots over 22 matches had he played them all.

But the better examples are guys like Leno, Dubravka, Schmeichel, and others who've faced a mountain of shots thus far, and conceded about the same number of goals as Pickford. By way of comparison:

Pickford 61 saves, 35 goals (96 shots on target faced) = 64% save
vs
Dubravka 99 saves, 36 goals (135 shots) = 73%
Leno 91 saves, 34 goals (125 shots) = 73%
Schmeichel 63 saves, 23 goals (86) = 73%
Mat Ryan 83 saves, 34 goals (117) = 71%
Ramsdale 80 saves, 34 goals (114) = 70%

More saves, fewer goals. It's not long division here.
You know what those stats probably about tell the tale of what we ve seen this season.

Our defence is probs not a lot different in quality to LCFCs and Kasper has faced a similar amount of shots on target, but performed better.

Our defence is better than the others mentioned, so not surprisingly their keepers have faced more shots.

The key figure is they are all outperforming Pickford which surely is no surprise.

Yankee.....are you able to get his historic stats from the last few years ? I d be interested to see if theres been any movement either way ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 22, 2020, 10:33:28 PM
see I think that's a better table that reflects performance better.....

I would still argue the level of shot faced influences the percentages though....niggly I know but still a factor....

for example using their keepers 3 saves in the cup derby...commentators creaming themselves over them yet all 3 were straight at him...

pickford made a great save down to his right along the floor...and through players....i'd take that save over his 3 as the best goalkeeping any day...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 22, 2020, 10:36:01 PM
Yankee.....are you able to get his historic stats from the last few years ? I d be interested to see if theres been any movement either way ?

I'm literally pulling A) saves and B) goals conceded (by keeper) from www.premierleague.com, C) adding them together to get shots on target, and D) dividing saves into total shots. Voila!

So yeah, the Prem site stats go back 20 years.

Pickford 18/19: 94 saves, 46 goals / 140 = 67%. At a glance it would appear as though saves are about on par with this year, but he's giving up more goals.
Fabianski in 18/19 by comparison: 148 saves, 55 goals / 203 = 73%.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 22, 2020, 10:42:26 PM
I'm literally pulling A) saves and B) goals conceded (by keeper) from www.premierleague.com, C) adding them together to get shots on target, and D) dividing saves into total shots. Voila!

So yeah, the Prem site stats go back 20 years.

Pickford 18/19: 94 saves, 46 goals / 140 = 67%. At a glance it would appear as though saves are about on par with this year, but he's giving up more goals.
Fabianski in 18/19 by comparison: 148 saves, 55 goals / 203 = 73%.
So truth be told he is yet to perform to a level that we are seeing from other prem keepers?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on January 22, 2020, 10:43:03 PM
@ajax_andy (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=104) you keep posting your analysis but keep forgetting a key detail. Goalkeepers can use their hands. Outfield players can only use their heads.

How does this not make your analysis? Using your hands allows you to get an extra two feet when you jump above your head. Are you saying that Schar was able to get 2 ft higher than him? Seriously.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 22, 2020, 10:44:34 PM
@Martip (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=6665) you got me curious so I checked.

Pickford 16/17 - 73% on 185 shots
17/18 - 68% on 179 shots
18/19 - 67% on 140 shots
19/20 YTD - 64% on 96 shots (this extrapolates out to 64% with 58 goals from 159 shots, for comparison sake)

He's not going the right direction, at the very least.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 22, 2020, 10:49:54 PM
@Martip (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=6665) you got me curious so I checked.

Pickford 16/17 - 73% on 185 shots
17/18 - 68% on 179 shots
18/19 - 67% on 140 shots
19/20 YTD - 64% on 96 shots (this extrapolates out to 64% with 58 goals from 159 shots, for comparison sake)

He's not going the right direction, at the very least.
Bloody hell that's grim reading !
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 22, 2020, 10:57:30 PM
Bloody hell that's grim reading !

If you break it down to its most simple insight, the team has been allowing fewer & fewer shots over the years, but we're still conceding the same number of goals (or more). Still not the whole story, I agree, but it's a telling trend and ignoring it is just sticking your head in the sand.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 22, 2020, 11:42:02 PM
@ajax_andy (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=104) you keep posting your analysis but keep forgetting a key detail. Goalkeepers can use their hands. Outfield players can only use their heads.

How does this not make your analysis? Using your hands allows you to get an extra two feet when you jump above your head. Are you saying that Schar was able to get 2 ft higher than him? Seriously.

It's quite simple and explained in my analysis... Read the full thing as it's clearly mentioned.

Also Pickford won the ball so therefore beat Schar in height so you know, he did actually beat Schar, the consequences of Mina leaving Schar / Schar jumping with Pickford is covered in my analysis.

If you read it and disagree please outline specifically what you think happened / didn't / should have happened
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 23, 2020, 12:06:05 AM
It's quite simple and explained in my analysis... Read the full thing as it's clearly mentioned.

Also Pickford won the ball so therefore beat Schar in height so you know, he did actually beat Schar, the consequences of Mina leaving Schar / Schar jumping with Pickford is covered in my analysis.

If you read it and disagree please outline specifically what you think happened / didn't / should have happened

Winning the ball and not getting it clear isnít really a positive
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on January 23, 2020, 12:12:11 AM
Can we at least all agree heís a knobhead?


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 23, 2020, 12:19:37 AM
Can we at least all agree he's a knobhead?


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And I bet if you asked him he'd say he's the best knobhead around

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: 74Blue on January 23, 2020, 12:24:02 AM
England's number one?
Fuck off, he's fucking shite!
It's not as if it's the first time he's conceded cheaply. If he truly is the best that England can call upon, then the national team are well and truly in the shit.
I"ve said it before, and I will say it again, he's really not all that. He's a Match of the day highlights keeper, who dives around a bit and often makes routine saves look spectacular.
Fuck me, it's not even the first time he's had a mare against Newcastle either.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 23, 2020, 12:28:16 AM
Not sure how you can say he flapped at the first one when Mina left Schar completely unchecked and allowed him to have a clear run and jump on Pickford... I've posted a lengthy explanation a couple of times now, it's all in there. 

Thatís literally what he did. Any action before it is irrelevant. He flapped it the ball and put it back into a dangerous area.

He was all over the place for the second goal as well.

Heís not solely to blame. Thereís so many players in that last minute who let themselves down but if you concede two goals from set pieces within one minute you have to be asking questions about the goalkeeper. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on January 23, 2020, 12:49:56 AM
Last time I'll post this

Good, absolutely no need to post it three times. It's pretty patronising in fact, making out your opinion is all that matters and you're above everyone else.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 23, 2020, 12:54:04 AM
The days of a daft lad in goal who lurches between moments of brilliance and absolute howlers is long gone.
All the top 'keepers are motivated, level-headed assured individuals. Coaches acknowledged a long time ago that you benefit from having a calming influence in goal.
Goalkeeper is now probably the position that has the least scope for innovation. It is about the position to take up when the ball is in a certain area of the field to prevent danger rather than react to it.
The position of hands, feet and head are all coached.
Pickford is very talented but I think will always fall short of being rated among the very best.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 01:05:46 AM
Good, absolutely no need to post it three times. It's pretty patronising in fact, making out your opinion is all that matters and you're above everyone else.

Well the fact is people are talking crap and I'm the only one to actually post analysis rather than just random bollocks, so there's a need to post it several times.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Silas on January 23, 2020, 01:09:05 AM
He does deserve a bit of slack for being young problem is we need a great goalkeeper now and he isn't there yet. He's not as good as peak Howard or Martyn right now in terms of stringing together consistent performances
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 23, 2020, 01:09:19 AM
Well the fact is people are talking crap and I'm the only one to actually post analysis rather than just random bollocks, so there's a need to post it several times.
I'm still not convinced. Post it again and I'll have a read.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 01:10:00 AM
Thatís literally what he did. Any action before it is irrelevant. He flapped it the ball and put it back into a dangerous area.

He was all over the place for the second goal as well.

Heís not solely to blame. Thereís so many players in that last minute who let themselves down but if you concede two goals from set pieces within one minute you have to be asking questions about the goalkeeper. 

Go out in your garden... Take two steps to the side and jump, then run 4 steps forward and jump (both times as high as you can)....once you've done that come back and tell me you didn't leap a fuck tonne higher the second time.

And yeah he was all over the place for the second goal as the ball was all over the place in a mad goalmouth scramble of pinball.  What's he supposed to do? Stand still and not move? 🤣

The fact is people are livid about the capitulation last night and as a result are picking their usual scapegoats to target their anger on.

Mina 100% culpable for the first.
Holgate & Davies 100% for the second.

Weirdly only Davies has copped it out of those three on here, plus Pickford who was left high and dry by their fuck ups.  If that doesn't scream agenda I don't know what does.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 01:10:38 AM
I'm still not convinced. Post it again and I'll have a read.

Best not as can't tell if you're serious or not 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 23, 2020, 01:16:13 AM
Go out in your garden... Take two steps to the side and jump, then run 4 steps forward and jump (both times as high as you can)....once you've done that come back and tell me you didn't leap a fuck tonne higher the second time.

And yeah he was all over the place for the second goal as the ball was all over the place in a mad goalmouth scramble of pinball.  What's he supposed to do? Stand still and not move? 🤣

The fact is people are livid about the capitulation last night and as a result are picking their usual scapegoats to target their anger on.

Mina 100% culpable for the first.
Holgate & Davies 100% for the second.

Weirdly only Davies has copped it out of those three on here, plus Pickford who was left high and dry by their fuck ups.  If that doesn't scream agenda I don't know what does.

Literally said other players are to blame as well. You actually reading what people are saying here? Kinell think Iíve slagged off every player other than DCL in the last 24 hours.

I have no agenda. Bored of that getting spouted anytime thereís a debate about  player.

You seem to think your opinion is more valid than others for some reason? Why is that?

Do you play in goal? Coach to a high level? Seems like you think we should all dismiss our own opinions and take yours as gospel for some reason.



Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on January 23, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
Well the fact is people are talking crap and I'm the only one to actually post analysis rather than just random bollocks, so there's a need to post it several times.

They're not talking crap, they're just not writing War and Peace to get their point over.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 23, 2020, 01:23:27 AM
To summarise.....hes a shitty, beaky flapper.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 01:27:11 AM
Literally said other players are to blame as well. You actually reading what people are saying here? Kinell think Iíve slagged off every player other than DCL in the last 24 hours.

I have no agenda. Bored of that getting spouted anytime thereís a debate about  player.

You seem to think your opinion is more valid than others for some reason? Why is that?

Do you play in goal? Coach to a high level? Seems like you think we should all dismiss our own opinions and take yours as gospel for some reason.





Yeah I used to play in goal... Fair enough you disagree with what I've said, but I stand by it because it's imo correct.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on January 23, 2020, 01:28:18 AM
Yeah I used to play in goal... Fair enough you disagree with what I've said, but I stand by it because it's imo correct.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Didnít you say you played in goal as a kid??
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 23, 2020, 01:32:34 AM
Heís dog shit debate over 😉
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 01:37:32 AM
Didnít you say you played in goal as a kid??

Yeah from the age six until 15, played at school level.  Then on and off in Sunday League and random tournaments until about 25.  So about 19 years in total, albeit not at any sort of high level.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 23, 2020, 01:43:05 AM
Go out in your garden... Take two steps to the side and jump, then run 4 steps forward and jump (both times as high as you can)....once you've done that come back and tell me you didn't leap a fuck tonne higher the second time.

And yeah he was all over the place for the second goal as the ball was all over the place in a mad goalmouth scramble of pinball.  What's he supposed to do? Stand still and not move? 🤣

The fact is people are livid about the capitulation last night and as a result are picking their usual scapegoats to target their anger on.

Mina 100% culpable for the first.
Holgate & Davies 100% for the second.

Weirdly only Davies has copped it out of those three on here, plus Pickford who was left high and dry by their fuck ups.  If that doesn't scream agenda I don't know what does.

For starters, no one is 100% culpable for anything. Plenty of blame to go around, including Pickford.

Great breakdown, with images & highlighted players in linear fashion like: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jordan-pickford-zonal-marking-error-17610904
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 01:47:59 AM
For starters, no one is 100% culpable for anything. Plenty of blame to go around, including Pickford.

Great breakdown, with images & highlighted players in linear fashion like: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jordan-pickford-zonal-marking-error-17610904

I don't think that link is particularly in depth, it doesnt even mention Mina leaving Leguene alone to have a free run and leap at Pickford / the ball.

They got one thing right that I got wrong though as I thought it was Schar not Leguene that Mina left, so I stand corrected on that.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bluenuck on January 23, 2020, 02:04:22 AM
That second goal is a cascade of errors from multiple players.

From just lumping it forward, to the foul, to no one getting a head on a ball that was in the air for an eternity, to Holgate losing his man, Mina coming across to help, Pickford, at least 3 players standing around watching......

It was a complete meltdown from every player on the pitch. They didn't seem like they knew what to do.

When the screws are tightened this whole team crumbles... Maybe 5 managers in 3 seasons is the problem??
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 23, 2020, 02:18:17 AM
The lad was throwing balls straight out of play over Colemanís head with a few minutes left. Bonkers.

Thereís not an ounce of maturity in his game. Although there wasnít an ounce of maturity amongst his team-mates either, while he was bouncing up and down with the ball in his hands wondering whether to launch it long and turn over possession again when we were winning comfortably. Didnít see our self proclaimed leader Delph telling him to just calm down and take the sting out of the game once.

Heís 26 but he still acts like a young kid. Wouldnít be averse to a more experienced, stable keeper coming in for the short term while we set about rebuilding this young side.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: brap2 on January 23, 2020, 02:28:33 AM
Every goal keeping coach I've seen mention it (two lol) has said it was a bit of a farce and not at all what youd expect from an experienced keeper.

In fact spoke to one today who coaches and scouts for Everton (3 then ) who said you absolutely need to get back across your line.

That said, the side in general put him under pressure. Holgate at the scene of the crime after an impressive game. All well and good but you need to stay switched on, and there's 3 of them under that cross at the end.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 23, 2020, 03:01:38 AM
Wish people would stop saying heís a great shot stopper.

For one, he isnít.

For two, that sentence makes no sense. Itís just something people seem to come out with all the time when they want to say something about goalkeepers without really knowing what theyíre talking about.

Does my head in.

I think what people mean by that is that he has good reflexes.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 23, 2020, 03:15:05 AM
I think what people mean by that is that he has good reflexes.

I can guarantee that I've said "[Pickford]'s a brilliant stopper and a mediocre keeper" at least once in this thread haha
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 23, 2020, 03:16:07 AM
@ajax_andy (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=104) have you ever met @TheSig (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=6543)?

Youíre both like a dog with a bone when it comes to your opinion on players.

Wasnít it you that slated anyone that stuck up for Kean on here for about three days straight last week?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 23, 2020, 03:26:33 AM
@ajax_andy (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=104) have you ever met @TheSig (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=6543)?

Youíre both like a dog with a bone when it comes to your opinion on players.

Wasnít it you that slated anyone that stuck up for Kean on here for about three days straight last week?

I have an entire list of who has crap takes on every conceivable player & topic, so I know which preconceived bias to expect, lmk if you want me to slide it into your DMs ;)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 03:29:45 AM
@ajax_andy (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=104) have you ever met @TheSig (https://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=6543)?

Youíre both like a dog with a bone when it comes to your opinion on players.

Wasnít it you that slated anyone that stuck up for Kean on here for about three days straight last week?

Not exactly, I said he needs to improve before the end of the season as we can't carry him next season, and if he doesn't show anything before the end of the year we need to consider loaning him out until he's ready.

I also posted at half time in the match last night saying he'd proved me wrong and that he'd done everything I was wanting him to do. Then two or three subsequent posts in there praising his performance.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on January 23, 2020, 03:42:44 AM
Well the fact is people are talking crap and I'm the only one to actually post analysis rather than just random bollocks, so there's a need to post it several times.
How is it crap to question his mental attitude during games he gets completely wound up playing Newcastle and it affects his performance
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Thornton_19 on January 23, 2020, 04:49:30 AM
He burns my head out a lot. First season i thought he was excellent. Ever since the World Cup he seems to make worse and worse decisions.

He seemingly has no brain.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Confucius on January 23, 2020, 06:11:35 AM
@ajax_andy (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=104)

Go jump in your house and try to reach the ceiling. Now try with your hands. See which one gets you closer. You can run and jump with your head and stand still with your hands.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 23, 2020, 01:36:27 PM
He's in danger of losing the number one shirt for England, that could be a blessing in disguise, give him a kick up the arse that he desperately needs
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 23, 2020, 01:40:59 PM
He's in danger of losing the number one shirt for England, that could be a blessing in disguise, give him a kick up the arse that he desperately needs
100% I get a picture of someone that is so arrogant and almost believes he's untouchable. The scary thing for me is if it did happen, which I think is deserved, then he'd be in a state of shock and didn't even see it coming

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 01:51:34 PM
@ajax_andy (http://www.nsno.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=104)

Go jump in your house and try to reach the ceiling. Now try with your hands. See which one gets you closer. You can run and jump with your head and stand still with your hands.



🤣🤣🤣

Not the same at all but I enjoyed the vision of you testing this out before typing 😜
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 23, 2020, 01:55:49 PM
Not exactly, I said he needs to improve before the end of the season as we can't carry him next season, and if he doesn't show anything before the end of the year we need to consider loaning him out until he's ready.

I also posted at half time in the match last night saying he'd proved me wrong and that he'd done everything I was wanting him to do. Then two or three subsequent posts in there praising his performance.

Yes, I remember; you pretty much posted the same thing over and over again, just like in this thread.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 23, 2020, 01:57:09 PM
I have an entire list of who has crap takes on every conceivable player & topic, so I know which preconceived bias to expect, lmk if you want me to slide it into your DMs ;)

Woah, like a shitlist 😳
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 02:04:18 PM
Yes, I remember; you pretty much posted the same thing over and over again, just like in this thread.



Ah ok so I shouldn't have replied when people replied to my posts?  Didn't realise that's how this forum worked... Can you send me the guidelines of when it's appropriate to respond to a comments and when it's not, must have missed that email in the 10 years I've been on here 😒
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on January 23, 2020, 02:11:16 PM
Woah, like a shitlist
Find out if I'm on there for Iwobi, if not, then it truly is a shitlist!!

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on January 23, 2020, 02:39:57 PM
Well the fact is people are talking crap and I'm the only one to actually post analysis rather than just random bollocks, so there's a need to post it several times.

Dear Ajax Andy,

You are like the Gary Goals of Goalkeepers. You played in goal for your school team and seem to be demanding everyone reads your Ďanalysisí  like itís a professional document that is vital to form our opinions on goalkeeping and  you seem to think is far superior to other people a views.

Itís entertaining, Gary Goalkeeper. I will give you that.

Kind regards,

Juanito
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 23, 2020, 02:56:27 PM
Ah ok so I shouldn't have replied when people replied to my posts?  Didn't realise that's how this forum worked... Can you send me the guidelines of when it's appropriate to respond to a comments and when it's not, must have missed that email in the 10 years I've been on here 😒

Just an observation, mate.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 02:56:59 PM
Dear Ajax Andy,

You are like the Gary Goals of Goalkeepers. You played in goal for your school team and seem to be demanding everyone reads your Ďanalysisí  like itís a professional document that is vital to form our opinions on goalkeeping and  you seem to think is far superior to other people a views.

Itís entertaining, Gary Goalkeeper. I will give you that.

Kind regards,

Juanito

At least I'm bothering to watch the replays and write some sort of fact based post, unlike most on this thread... I've seen everything from get Lossl in goals to 'hes fucking shit, flaps more than a swan taking off, total garbage, needs to sort out his twitchy beak taking face'.

Problem is people don't want to hear something that goes against their preconceived ideas, even of it's right.

The agenda has been set, like with certain other players, and it's not welcomed when someone points out they've got it wrong.

So let's just leave it at that because really it's pointless arguing with people who have such a set mindset against a player, which I wouldn't even mind if they would back it up with some analysis of their own, but they won't / can't... Like I said the agenda has been set.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 02:59:04 PM
Just an observation, mate.

Kind of goes against the idea of a forum though right?  I actually made valid points about Kean too, needs to be ready to contribute next season, and based on the Newcastle match he is... I'm made up for him, loved his attitude in that match, the part where he held off two players, managed to wriggle free and was hacked down was absolutely immense... I enjoyed seeing that strength and desire almost as much as his goal 🤘
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on January 23, 2020, 03:18:37 PM
At least I'm bothering to watch the replays and write some sort of fact based post, unlike most on this thread... I've seen everything from get Lossl in goals to 'hes fucking shit, flaps more than a swan taking off, total garbage, needs to sort out his twitchy beak taking face'.

Problem is people don't want to hear something that goes against their preconceived ideas, even of it's right.

The agenda has been set, like with certain other players, and it's not welcomed when someone points out they've got it wrong.

So let's just leave it at that because really it's pointless arguing with people who have such a set mindset against a player, which I wouldn't even mind if they would back it up with some analysis of their own, but they won't / can't... Like I said the agenda has been set.

Gary Goalkeeper, I like youíre style. A tour de force of football forum argument.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 23, 2020, 03:21:52 PM
Ive seen enough of him to make me believe he as it in him to be a top keeper.  But i think it was macca who said he needs a rocket up his arse,  which he really does. Its if he can recognise it and then kick on from there. He doesnt come across as one of the sharpest tools in the box. Needs to calm down a little more too. 

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 23, 2020, 06:10:37 PM
Kind of goes against the idea of a forum though right?  I actually made valid points about Kean too, needs to be ready to contribute next season, and based on the Newcastle match he is... I'm made up for him, loved his attitude in that match, the part where he held off two players, managed to wriggle free and was hacked down was absolutely immense... I enjoyed seeing that strength and desire almost as much as his goal 🤘

Again, I remember you saying all this.

A lot.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 06:12:48 PM
Again, I remember you saying all this.

A lot.

All in response to replies to my posts... So you know, that's the point of a debate, unless people don't want to debate the point in which case they just shouldn't reply 😜
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 23, 2020, 06:14:43 PM
All in response to replies to my posts... So you know, that's the point of a debate, unless people don't want to debate the point in which case they just shouldn't reply 😜

Iím not gonna debate you ;)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 23, 2020, 07:08:55 PM
He's in danger of losing the number one shirt for England, that could be a blessing in disguise, give him a kick up the arse that he desperately needs

Depends, this is a double-edged sword. If we want him to sort himself and become a better, more consistently focused keeper? Then yes it'd be a good thing.

But if we want maximize value when trying to sell him, we actually want him to continue to be England's top keeper, no?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on January 23, 2020, 07:11:09 PM
He's in danger of losing the number one shirt for England, that could be a blessing in disguise, give him a kick up the arse that he desperately needs
I keep seeing that, Not sure who too tho. Pope's not better imo

Is there an up and coming young keeper under the radar? Ramsdale maybe? Is he better now? Not sure
The same for the lad at Sheff U
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 23, 2020, 07:12:44 PM
Woah, like a shitlist 😳

By George I think he's got it!

But don't you? It's like foruming 101 😄
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 07:29:11 PM
I keep seeing that, Not sure who too tho. Pope's not better imo

Is there an up and coming young keeper under the radar? Ramsdale maybe? Is he better now? Not sure
The same for the lad at Sheff U

Pope's not been great this year and had his share of clangers... the main thing is though Pickford's been excellent for England, largely because he's playing behind a settled defence in a team that's usually in control of games.  He won't be dropped unless he starts slinging them in the net in a tournament, which is unlikely.

There doesn't seem to be any other real contenders for that international position, although I think Pope will come good again, he missed a lot of last year with injury and it seems to have given him some sort of hangover this year.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 23, 2020, 07:34:59 PM
There's a whole back-n-forth some pages ago talking about Pickford, England, and international keepers. Pickford being England's #1 - or there not really being a standout alternative - says more about the state of English keepers than it does Pickford's (or Pope's, etc.) level of quality.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toffee_4_Life on January 23, 2020, 07:57:21 PM
Henderson should certainly get the next few friendlies as England keeper.

There's a strange culture in international football to really not want to change goalkeepers. Every other positon someone gets dropped of they don't perform for their league team. There seems to be some belief that keepers are all fragile souls and temporarily losing their places will lead to a crisis of confidence and will ruin them for good.

I think half of Pickfords issue is his his attitude and losing his England place might be a blessing in disguise and give him a warning shot that seems his form for us improve. If not then he's not good enough and move him on.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 08:44:45 PM
Henderson should certainly get the next few friendlies as England keeper.

There's a strange culture in international football to really not want to change goalkeepers. Every other positon someone gets dropped of they don't perform for their league team. There seems to be some belief that keepers are all fragile souls and temporarily losing their places will lead to a crisis of confidence and will ruin them for good.

I think half of Pickfords issue is his his attitude and losing his England place might be a blessing in disguise and give him a warning shot that seems his form for us improve. If not then he's not good enough and move him on.

He's been really good for England though, so why would Southgate drop him?  Because some fans on an Everton forum don't rate him?  Southgate will stick with Pickford because he's been extremely reliable for him, it wouldn't make sense from his point of view to drop him.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toffee_4_Life on January 23, 2020, 09:09:42 PM
He's been really good for England though, so why would Southgate drop him?  Because some fans on an Everton forum don't rate him?  Southgate will stick with Pickford because he's been extremely reliable for him, it wouldn't make sense from his point of view to drop him.

No because his current form in the league isn't as good. Lingard was good in the last world cup so Southgate should stick with him??

Current form matters, and ok current form there are better English keepers
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on January 23, 2020, 09:13:44 PM
There's a whole back-n-forth some pages ago talking about Pickford, England, and international keepers. Pickford being England's #1 - or there not really being a standout alternative - says more about the state of English keepers than it does Pickford's (or Pope's, etc.) level of quality.
Always the same with England, strong in one area, weak in another

I cant really remember a time where we were strong all over
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 23, 2020, 09:32:40 PM
No because his current form in the league isn't as good. Lingard was good in the last world cup so Southgate should stick with him??

Current form matters, and ok current form there are better English keepers

Literally no international manager will drop a keeper whose done really well for him because his league form hasn't been stellar... he trusts him, he fits what Southgate needs and works well with the defenders who are used to him behind them.  We need to stop the drop him from England shouts as that's kind of pointless and uncalled for.  It's not happening and nor should it unless he makes some big errors for England.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on January 23, 2020, 11:02:45 PM
He's been really good for England though, so why would Southgate drop him?  Because some fans on an Everton forum don't rate him?  Southgate will stick with Pickford because he's been extremely reliable for him, it wouldn't make sense from his point of view to drop him.
Jesus man have you not watched him over the last two seasons anfield last year Newcastle constantly pushing the ball back into danger instead of away. His distribution was supposed to be his strong point thatís shot at the moment too look back at our last five or six games see how many times he kicks it too long to their goalkeeper or over the sideline trying to hit our full backs. He deserves to be dropped in my opinion
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on January 23, 2020, 11:18:48 PM
For england? Us? Both?
Jesus man have you not watched him over the last two seasons anfield last year Newcastle constantly pushing the ball back into danger instead of away. His distribution was supposed to be his strong point that's shot at the moment too look back at our last five or six games see how many times he kicks it too long to their goalkeeper or over the sideline trying to hit our full backs. He deserves to be dropped in my opinion
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 23, 2020, 11:47:37 PM
For want of a better word he can be a right clown. He's erratic and it pisses me off.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 24, 2020, 12:22:24 AM
Jesus man have you not watched him over the last two seasons anfield last year Newcastle constantly pushing the ball back into danger instead of away. His distribution was supposed to be his strong point thatís shot at the moment too look back at our last five or six games see how many times he kicks it too long to their goalkeeper or over the sideline trying to hit our full backs. He deserves to be dropped in my opinion

He doesn't deserve to be dropped from England because he's been reliable and dependable for them... Interesting that without the clusterfuck of our team on front of him he's solid as a rock.

Southgate won't and shouldn't drop him because he's been very good for the national team over a prolonged period of time.  I mean you COULD drop him for Pope whose been pretty poor this year, but that makes no sense at all... Or an untested player at international level to see if he does a better job then the excellent job Pickford's already been doing for that team, but again that makes zero sense.

It's bloody grim on here lately, people demanding Southgate drop him from the England team is proper next level barmy.

Maybe come back and make that argument if he starts failing at international level, until then it's a daft argument.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Thomas on January 24, 2020, 12:40:41 AM
I'd sell him. Just dont like his attitude and find him at times unreliable. Harsh but true.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on January 24, 2020, 02:50:06 AM
He doesn't deserve to be dropped from England because he's been reliable and dependable for them... Interesting that without the clusterfuck of our team on front of him he's solid as a rock.

Southgate won't and shouldn't drop him because he's been very good for the national team over a prolonged period of time.  I mean you COULD drop him for Pope whose been pretty poor this year, but that makes no sense at all... Or an untested player at international level to see if he does a better job then the excellent job Pickford's already been doing for that team, but again that makes zero sense.

It's bloody grim on here lately, people demanding Southgate drop him from the England team is proper next level barmy.

Maybe come back and make that argument if he starts failing at international level, until then it's a daft argument.
Iím Irish I couldnít give a fuck what Southgate does im talking about Everton
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 24, 2020, 02:57:54 AM
He doesn't deserve to be dropped from England because he's been reliable and dependable for them... Interesting that without the clusterfuck of our team on front of him he's solid as a rock.

Southgate won't and shouldn't drop him because he's been very good for the national team over a prolonged period of time.  I mean you COULD drop him for Pope whose been pretty poor this year, but that makes no sense at all... Or an untested player at international level to see if he does a better job then the excellent job Pickford's already been doing for that team, but again that makes zero sense.

It's bloody grim on here lately, people demanding Southgate drop him from the England team is proper next level barmy.

Maybe come back and make that argument if he starts failing at international level, until then it's a daft argument.

Surely thereís an argument that at least to some extent club form should decide the international team
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 24, 2020, 03:29:23 AM
Surely thereís an argument that at least to some extent club form should decide the international team

To an extent definitely, but his club form isn't so awful it should currently impact on Southgate's thinking, especially when the alternative really is Pope who hasn't exactly been great.

Calls for Pickford to be dropped from the England team feels a bit witch huntery, because he's been excellent over the last couple of years for the national team, his distribution suits Southgate's style of playing out from the back, and the defence are used to playing with him.

I get some people on here don't think he's good enough for us let alone England, but regardless of that his performances in an England shirt have been exemplary, which makes you wonder what about playing in a decent team makes his game substantially better (or in other words maybe our defending is playing a massive part in our goals being conceded).
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 24, 2020, 03:14:40 PM
Nick pope better than Pickford is the latest media bandwagon that people think is some sort of enlightening, clever opinion but is actually wrong.

Made a howler just two weeks ago and nothing was talked about it. Imagine if that was Pickford?

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 24, 2020, 03:17:08 PM
Nick pope better than Pickford is the latest media bandwagon that people think is some sort of enlightening, clever opinion but is actually wrong.

Made a howler just two weeks ago and nothing was talked about it. Imagine if that was Pickford?



It was a bizarre howler too, still can't work out what he was doing for it
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gary Todd on January 24, 2020, 03:59:54 PM
Granted that was one hell of a fuck up against the toon he saved the fucking ball stood in the goal but regardless he's still a quality keeper gets let down by his defence sometimes and let's be realistic even the top draw keepers at world level make howlers now and then as for being dropped from the national team well imo there's no real grounds for that granted he has competition for his place but right now he's still the best we have

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on January 24, 2020, 04:40:19 PM
Pickford may not be a world class keeper but he's OK for where we are at the moment. Getting someone better than him is going to be very hard and our best bet is that he can somehow mature and become a calmer goalkeeper or that we can develop a youngster. Talk of Nick Pope is silly. The only thing Pope is better than him is dealing with crosses, which makes sense given his height advantage but in every other aspect Pickford is the better keeper.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 24, 2020, 05:23:28 PM
Pickford may not be a world class keeper but he's OK for where we are at the moment. Getting someone better than him is going to be very hard and our best bet is that he can somehow mature and become a calmer goalkeeper or that we can develop a youngster. Talk of Nick Pope is silly. The only thing Pope is better than him is dealing with crosses, which makes sense given his height advantage but in every other aspect Pickford is the better keeper.


He's only 26, which is still young for a keeper so hopefully that maturity comes... to put it in context, Casper Schmeichel at the same age had just completed his first season for Leicester City, having signed from Leeds the previous summer.  Schmeichel was never really seen as a great keeper but has really developed and matured as he approached and passed 30.

Pickford has ability beyond his years but a mental maturity probably less than his years, so hopefully as he starts to approach that 28-30 mark we see the mental aspect catch up.  I think Schmeichel is a good comparison as he really took time to develop in to the keeper his is now.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on January 25, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
The only PL keepers Iíd have over Pickford are de Gea, Edison and Becker. Kepa for 70 million anyone?  :bonk:

 I canít really blame Pickford for Newcastleís second if for no other reason than given we kicked off after they scored we had 10 other players on the pitch who should have been capable of keeping the ball away from our penalty area for the remaining seconds of the match..

I still think heís the least of our problems..
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 25, 2020, 03:30:47 PM
The only PL keepers Iíd have over Pickford are de Gea, Edison and Becker. Kepa for 70 million anyone?  :bonk:

 I canít really blame Pickford for Newcastleís second if for no other reason than given we kicked off after they scored we had 10 other players on the pitch who should have been capable of keeping the ball away from our penalty area for the remaining seconds of the match..

I still think heís the least of our problems..
Can I ask what you are basing your comments regarding de gea, Edison and Becker on, as Pickford is being outperformed again by a large majority of the league in his position ?

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 25, 2020, 03:32:16 PM
The only PL keepers Iíd have over Pickford are de Gea, Edison and Becker. Kepa for 70 million anyone?  :bonk:

 I canít really blame Pickford for Newcastleís second if for no other reason than given we kicked off after they scored we had 10 other players on the pitch who should have been capable of keeping the ball away from our penalty area for the remaining seconds of the match..

I still think heís the least of our problems..

You canít blame Pickford because we shouldnít have given up the chance? That really shouldnít be how you judge a keeper
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on January 25, 2020, 03:41:27 PM
The only PL keepers Iíd have over Pickford are de Gea, Edison and Becker. Kepa for 70 million anyone?  :bonk:

 I canít really blame Pickford for Newcastleís second if for no other reason than given we kicked off after they scored we had 10 other players on the pitch who should have been capable of keeping the ball away from our penalty area for the remaining seconds of the match..

I still think heís the least of our problems..
so its Ok as a keeper to stand on the wrong side of the goalline because we have 10 outfields players... I get that
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on January 25, 2020, 04:12:31 PM
so its Ok as a keeper to stand on the wrong side of the goalline because we have 10 outfields players... I get that
just as itís ok to conveniently forget the save he made immediately prior and the melee in the six yard box that followed or was that his fault as well.

Or lets just hound him out of the club for making a few errors - which every keeper in the PL has done this season.

Some bonkers shouts in here sometimes
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on January 25, 2020, 04:14:58 PM
just as itís ok to conveniently forget the save he made immediately prior and the melee in the six yard box that followed or was that his fault as well.

Or lets just hound him out of the club for making a few errors - which every keeper in the PL has done this season.

Some bonkers shouts in here sometimes
Thats not what I call an answer to my questioin - but agree there are some bonkers shouts in here
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 25, 2020, 04:28:59 PM
just as itís ok to conveniently forget the save he made immediately prior and the melee in the six yard box that followed or was that his fault as well.

Or lets just hound him out of the club for making a few errors - which every keeper in the PL has done this season.

Some bonkers shouts in here sometimes

Hound him out the club. What by saying on a forum that he makes a lot of mistakes?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on January 25, 2020, 04:47:01 PM
just as it's ok to conveniently forget the save he made immediately prior and the melee in the six yard box that followed or was that his fault as well.

Or lets just hound him out of the club for making a few errors - which every keeper in the PL has done this season.

Some bonkers shouts in here sometimes
No one trying to hound him out of the club I personally would like to see him dropped because his performances have been average at best this season your previous argument about it not being his fault is a bit right but he adds to the chaos in our penalty area by making shit decisions
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 25, 2020, 06:05:28 PM
Definitely needs some serious competition for his place whatever happens.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 25, 2020, 06:08:12 PM
Definitely needs some serious competition for his place whatever happens.

It's extremely rare to have two keepers both vying for the number one spot... it's not a position you can rotate easily hence why very few clubs have a great number two goalie.  I wouldn't hold my breath for serious competition if I were you, it just doesn't happen like that with the GK position.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 25, 2020, 08:05:17 PM
The only PL keepers Iíd have over Pickford are de Gea, Edison and Becker. Kepa for 70 million anyone?  :bonk:

 I canít really blame Pickford for Newcastleís second if for no other reason than given we kicked off after they scored we had 10 other players on the pitch who should have been capable of keeping the ball away from our penalty area for the remaining seconds of the match..

I still think heís the least of our problems..

Do you mean Ederson & Allisson?

Also, you know there are keepers outside of England, yeah?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on January 25, 2020, 11:33:53 PM
It's extremely rare to have two keepers both vying for the number one spot... it's not a position you can rotate easily hence why very few clubs have a great number two goalie.  I wouldn't hold my breath for serious competition if I were you, it just doesn't happen like that with the GK position.

You donít need to rotate. You just need to know you have a deputy that is more than capable of stepping in should your form dip, not who is only there should you get injured.
 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 26, 2020, 12:45:07 AM
You donít need to rotate. You just need to know you have a deputy that is more than capable of stepping in should your form dip, not who is only there should you get injured.
 

The issue is not many keepers who are actually decent would want to sit on the bench all season getting splinters in their arse.  That's why the vast majority of second choice keepers are dodgy as hell.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 26, 2020, 02:08:37 AM
You donít need to rotate. You just need to know you have a deputy that is more than capable of stepping in should your form dip, not who is only there should you get injured.
 

Do you have any examples of this?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 26, 2020, 03:01:25 AM
Ajax Andy is Pickford's mum.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 26, 2020, 03:05:40 AM
Ajax Andy is Pickford's mum.

He's a good lad bless him, always remembers his Nanna's birthday does our Jords
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 26, 2020, 04:18:10 AM
Do you have any examples of this?
De Gea/Romero
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 26, 2020, 04:25:40 AM
De Gea/Romero

Nothing to do with from. Any examples of acknowledged first choices replaced because of loss of from?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 26, 2020, 04:32:34 AM
Nothing to do with from. Any examples of acknowledged first choices replaced because of loss of from?
Joe Hart at Burnley.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 26, 2020, 04:38:55 AM
Joe Hart at Burnley.

More a case of him not being up to the job than getting a warning kick up the arse. Was he ever even established as first choice at Burnley?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on January 26, 2020, 04:40:57 AM
More a case of him not being up to the job than getting a warning kick up the arse. Was he ever even established as first choice at Burnley?
Ye.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on January 26, 2020, 11:32:41 AM
The only PL keepers Iíd have over Pickford are de Gea, Edison and Becker. Kepa for 70 million anyone?  :bonk:

 I canít really blame Pickford for Newcastleís second if for no other reason than given we kicked off after they scored we had 10 other players on the pitch who should have been capable of keeping the ball away from our penalty area for the remaining seconds of the match..

I still think heís the least of our problems..

Are people blaming him for the second?  The first was the one he was at fault for her.  He failed to clear the danger with his bunch. 

He is a liability in the air.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: GrantyBoy78 on January 26, 2020, 12:22:06 PM
Definitely needs some serious competition for his place whatever happens.
Makes a mockery of paying Lossl £50k p/w, if heís never going to get a chance to replace a struggling keeper. Not saying heís good enough, just that seems a big wage on someone whoís solely an injury replacement option, not a genuine competitor for the goalkeeping position.

That said, do even the top teams have quality back-up keepers? Adrian and Romero maybe?


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on January 26, 2020, 01:50:00 PM
Back-up keeper is more or less a position itself these days. Probably why the going rate in the PL is 50k a week. As well as occasional replacement you are also a training partner for the first choice.

As for replacing Pickford with Lossl or Stek; an under-performing Pickford is still better than both of them on their best day.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on January 26, 2020, 10:11:18 PM
Hound him out the club. What by saying on a forum that he makes a lot of mistakes?
Granted hound him out the club was an over exaggeration but there are several posts saying we should get rid...which is crazy IMO. He is still Englandís first choice - ahead of the guy some would like to replace him with (Pope), who himself has been guilty of a few howlers this season.

I still think there are much higher priorities in defence, midfield and attack before we even think of trying to replace Pickford.

Do you mean Ederson & Allisson?

Also, you know there are keepers outside of England, yeah?
Sorry yes Ederson, and Alisson if you like (Becker is the name on his shirt). And yeah I am aware teams outside of England have goalkeepers.  :thumbsup:  ;)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 26, 2020, 10:51:21 PM
Granted hound him out the club was an over exaggeration but there are several posts saying we should get rid...which is crazy IMO. He is still Englandís first choice - ahead of the guy some would like to replace him with (Pope), who himself has been guilty of a few howlers this season.

I still think there are much higher priorities in defence, midfield and attack before we even think of trying to replace Pickford.
Sorry yes Ederson, and Alisson if you like (Becker is the name on his shirt). And yeah I am aware teams outside of England have goalkeepers.  :thumbsup:  ;)

Agree weíve got bigger concerns but if he had a good euros and we got offered a big fee then I do think it would probably be clever to move him on

Heís clearly very talented but also an absolute moron both in terms of football intelligence and the regular kind
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 27, 2020, 08:22:19 PM
Agree weíve got bigger concerns but if he had a good euros and we got offered a big fee then I do think it would probably be clever to move him on

Heís clearly very talented but also an absolute moron both in terms of football intelligence and the regular kind

If there's one thing that grips my shit it's stupid comments like this from people who sit on the internet and think they know everything about everything and who think they know everything about a player because they read it/saw something on twitter or in a daily rag.....

i'm sure there's a must be couple of blokes on here such as simon and bally who may have met the lad personally after games etc ?? (I dont know) who will tell you what a nice lad he is quite quiet in his manner and spoken.....

as some have also questioned his "attitude"..i suggest take a look at his career history so far going out on loans to clubs well below his standard to learn the game...and also even though sunderland will paid his wages he went on loan to a couple of clubs "without pay from them"..... even though he could of earned more... by letting them pay him directly......

so suggest you get your facts in order before calling people........
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on January 27, 2020, 09:47:56 PM
If there's one thing that grips my shit it's stupid comments like this from people who sit on the internet and think they know everything about everything and who think they know everything about a player because they read it/saw something on twitter or in a daily rag.....

i'm sure there's a must be couple of blokes on here such as simon and bally who may have met the lad personally after games etc ?? (I dont know) who will tell you what a nice lad he is quite quiet in his manner and spoken.....

as some have also questioned his "attitude"..i suggest take a look at his career history so far going out on loans to clubs well below his standard to learn the game...and also even though sunderland will paid his wages he went on loan to a couple of clubs "without pay from them"..... even though he could of earned more... by letting them pay him directly......

so suggest you get your facts in order before calling people........

Well football wise he boots away possession over and over again even when we are in a position where we need to just keep the ball

Outside of football. Heís a 100k a week athlete who got involved in a pissed up fight and then is stood on a bloody chair/table a different time again pissed up. It might upset you but he needs to stop coming across as an absolute moron if he doesnít want people to assume he is 1
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on January 28, 2020, 12:25:36 PM
If there's one thing that grips my shit it's stupid comments like this from people who sit on the internet and think they know everything about everything and who think they know everything about a player because they read it/saw something on twitter or in a daily rag.....

i'm sure there's a must be couple of blokes on here such as simon and bally who may have met the lad personally after games etc ?? (I dont know) who will tell you what a nice lad he is quite quiet in his manner and spoken.....

as some have also questioned his "attitude"..i suggest take a look at his career history so far going out on loans to clubs well below his standard to learn the game...and also even though sunderland will paid his wages he went on loan to a couple of clubs "without pay from them"..... even though he could of earned more... by letting them pay him directly......

so suggest you get your facts in order before calling people........

I take your point about him being called a Moron etc but also there are others that seem to see him  like Ď one of the ladsí an and is therefore exempt of criticism. There are people who sit on the Internet and criticise him and there are professional football pundits who do the same.

1) he seems to lack maturity both on and off the pitch at times.

2) He seems unable to  dominate his six yard box. Can flap at crosses.

3) He needs to calm down and that needs to be felt by the defenders in front of him.

He can improve on all those and has and most want him to stay etc. Just annoys me that some people furiously protect him because they probably identify with him in some ways yet wouldnít afford the same for some of our other players.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 28, 2020, 07:51:05 PM
I take your point about him being called a Moron etc but also there are others that seem to see him  like Ď one of the ladsí an and is therefore exempt of criticism. There are people who sit on the Internet and criticise him and there are professional football pundits who do the same.

1) he seems to lack maturity both on and off the pitch at times.

2) He seems unable to  dominate his six yard box. Can flap at crosses.

3) He needs to calm down and that needs to be felt by the defenders in front of him.

He can improve on all those and has and most want him to stay etc. Just annoys me that some people furiously protect him because they probably identify with him in some ways yet wouldnít afford the same for some of our other players.

Very well thought-out comment, nicely put.

It makes you wonder...if Pickford wasn't English, or England's #1, would he be given this much leeway? If his name was, say, Dmitrovic or something.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on January 29, 2020, 03:29:21 AM
Very well thought-out comment, nicely put.

It makes you wonder...if Pickford was English, or England's #1, would he be given this much leeway? If his name was, say, Dmitrovic or something.

Oh definitely. If old Dmitrovic would be seen out of his head twice in a season I canít see the same level of reasoning with it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 29, 2020, 06:27:46 PM
I take your point about him being called a Moron etc but also there are others that seem to see him  like Ď one of the ladsí an and is therefore exempt of criticism. There are people who sit on the Internet and criticise him and there are professional football pundits who do the same.

1) he seems to lack maturity both on and off the pitch at times. BEING THE OPERATIVE WORD

2) He seems unable to  dominate his six yard box. Can flap at crosses
I don't get this train of thought..how many 1 on 1's does he come out on top of ? more than most ? Most keepers flap at crosses a lot of time..so does he at times

3) He needs to calm down and that needs to be felt by the defenders in front of him.
What do you mean by calm down ? I've seen him on many occasions telling the defenders/players in front of him to calm down only to be told from the touchline to go long quickly....

He can improve on all those and has and most want him to stay etc. Just annoys me that some people furiously protect him because they probably identify with him in some ways yet wouldnít afford the same for some of our other players.

I get what you're saying..however my original post was targeted at the "moron" tag given to him by a specific poster...NOT about his abilities...Ö

everyones entitled to an opinion...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 29, 2020, 06:30:19 PM
Very well thought-out comment, nicely put.

It makes you wonder...if Pickford wasn't English, or England's #1, would he be given this much leeway? If his name was, say, Dmitrovic or something.

what a stupid and racist comment to make !! He is commented on in here because he's an everton player...nothing else...doesn't schneiderlin/Siggurdson/Bernard/digne..I could go on get commented on in here at all then.....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 29, 2020, 06:54:37 PM
what a stupid and racist comment to make !! He is commented on in here because he's an everton player...nothing else...doesn't schneiderlin/Siggurdson/Bernard/digne..I could go on get commented on in here at all then.....

I don't think you know what racism is. Or got the point of what I said. Neither is surprising.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 29, 2020, 07:00:53 PM
If anything, he gets more scrutiny because he's England number one.

He got criticised for making a save the other week. If Nick Pope makes that save the reaction is completely different
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 29, 2020, 09:00:00 PM
I don't think you know what racism is. Or got the point of what I said. Neither is surprising.

you sad person....you know nothing about me..... yet pass comments like that

hits the nail on the head really doesn't it.....and shows you for the ignoramus you are....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 29, 2020, 09:04:57 PM
you sad person....you know nothing about me..... yet pass comments like that

hits the nail on the head really doesn't it.....and shows you for the ignoramus you are....

Nice, ignoramus, haven't heard that one in awhile.

Anyway, I know you often write stupid ill-informed comments on this forum, what more is there to know?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 29, 2020, 10:07:42 PM
I can read you like a book....

only ill informed in your world.....I've forgotten more about football than you'll ever know..... I've noticed that when people don't agree with you revert to name calling them and then try to argue your points with stupid copied cut and pasted stats from somewhere...tells me a lot about you....

so bring on the name calling.....tell me I know nothing about anything..... and give me some useless stats...

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 29, 2020, 10:19:12 PM
Enjoying this.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 29, 2020, 10:45:19 PM
I can read you like a book....

only ill informed in your world.....I've forgotten more about football than you'll ever know..... I've noticed that when people don't agree with you revert to name calling them and then try to argue your points with stupid copied cut and pasted stats from somewhere...tells me a lot about you....

so bring on the name calling.....tell me I know nothing about anything..... and give me some useless stats...

Interestingly, I didn't call you any names (unlike yourself), or quote any statistics, and yet here you are whinging about it.

I'm very happy for you that you know a lot about football. Nearly everyone here does but they're able to communicate & comprehend as would be required in any discussion. Perhaps you should have paid less attention to football and more attention to basic reading comprehension, saving us from this convo?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on January 29, 2020, 10:50:53 PM
It's all gone a bit naughty in here !
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 30, 2020, 01:22:22 AM
Remember when Pickford was downing pints and everyone was outraged, then he immediately had a few really good games and everyone said he should go out on the lash more often... And then people said he's shit because he conceeded two against Newcastle?

That's basically the past month summed up... Let's leave the discussion on him until the next match where we can all make a definitive decision on if he's class or Uber turd... Until the following match where we will do it all over again 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on January 30, 2020, 01:43:30 AM
Remember when Pickford was downing pints and everyone was outraged, then he immediately had a few really good games and everyone said he should go out on the lash more often... And then people said he's shit because he conceeded two against Newcastle?

That's basically the past month summed up... Let's leave the discussion on him until the next match where we can all make a definitive decision on if he's class or Uber turd... Until the following match where we will do it all over again 🤣

You do realise there's just plenty of people who doubt his ability as a keeper, and think we could sell at a high price and possibly get someone better? No judgement about his personality, intelligence, behaviour or any of that nonsense. You appear to be misrepresenting some of the comments, and mashing them all up into one mega-criticism.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 30, 2020, 01:52:23 AM
You do realise there's just plenty of people who doubt his ability as a keeper, and think we could sell at a high price and possibly get someone better? No judgement about his personality, intelligence, behaviour or any of that nonsense. You appear to be misrepresenting some of the comments, and mashing them all up into one mega-criticism.



No I'm just referencing how everyone lurches from one opinion to another on here (not everyone obvs, but a lot) on a game to game basis. 

It was tongue in cheek though, was getting a bit heated between a couple of people so just put something to calm shit down 😊
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on January 30, 2020, 02:03:09 AM
Oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo
I can read you like a book....

only ill informed in your world.....I've forgotten more about football than you'll ever know..... I've noticed that when people don't agree with you revert to name calling them and then try to argue your points with stupid copied cut and pasted stats from somewhere...tells me a lot about you....

so bring on the name calling.....tell me I know nothing about anything..... and give me some useless stats...

Sent from my POT-LX1 using NSNO Everton Forums mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88121)

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on January 30, 2020, 02:40:02 AM
Interestingly, I didn't call you any names (unlike yourself), or quote any statistics, and yet here you are whinging about it.

I'm very happy for you that you know a lot about football. Nearly everyone here does but they're able to communicate & comprehend as would be required in any discussion. Perhaps you should have paid less attention to football and more attention to basic reading comprehension, saving us from this convo?
Ive read quiet a few of your post (hard to avoid with you one the way to 4000 post in few days - some record that  ;) )
and some of them simply doesn't make sence - but I've not seen you namecalling  :thumbsup:  Could have been one of the posts I've missed though  :)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toffee Tuesdays on January 30, 2020, 02:55:13 AM
Very well thought-out comment, nicely put.

It makes you wonder...if Pickford wasn't English, or England's #1, would he be given this much leeway? If his name was, say, Dmitrovic or something.

What if his name was Van der Meyde?  If anything I think Pickford gets more leeway because he's England's #1
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 30, 2020, 04:28:52 PM
Interestingly, I didn't call you any names (unlike yourself), or quote any statistics, and yet here you are whinging about it.

I'm very happy for you that you know a lot about football. Nearly everyone here does but they're able to communicate & comprehend as would be required in any discussion. Perhaps you should have paid less attention to football and more attention to basic reading comprehension, saving us from this convo?

In this thread alone..you implied that if pickford wasn't English/England No 1 "would he get as much leeway"Ö.total racist implication on everyone whose "defending" him....in my opinion...

Your follow up thread stated I don't know what racism is.....hence inferring... a) i'm racist..b) i'm ignorant c) i'm stupid....you have no idea of my background.....my beliefs...my education....my career.....or me as a person....but go ahead keep making the aspersions....

But you don't think that's name calling?? Ok.....

PS I won a tenner on a bet on your above answer....think carefully how you answer to this post please.... as it's worth either £20 or £25 to me..thanks.. (i do enjoy our tete a tete by the way....)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on January 30, 2020, 04:30:00 PM
What if his name was Van der Meyde?  If anything I think Pickford gets more leeway because he's England's #1

In fairness you can't compare the two as one has been caught out on the booze a couple of times, and the other was a massive piss and coke head.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 30, 2020, 06:49:13 PM
In this thread alone..you implied that if pickford wasn't English/England No 1 "would he get as much leeway"Ö.total racist implication on everyone whose "defending" him....in my opinion...

Your follow up thread stated I don't know what racism is.....hence inferring... a) i'm racist..b) i'm ignorant c) i'm stupid....you have no idea of my background.....my beliefs...my education....my career.....or me as a person....but go ahead keep making the aspersions....

But you don't think that's name calling?? Ok.....

PS I won a tenner on a bet on your above answer....think carefully how you answer to this post please.... as it's worth either £20 or £25 to me..thanks.. (i do enjoy our tete a tete by the way....)

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3owypkSIpM8xw6p7W0/giphy.gif)

(did you win?)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: SteB on January 30, 2020, 07:00:31 PM
I wonder if the moderators could set up a 'Handbags Forum'
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 30, 2020, 07:15:44 PM
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3owypkSIpM8xw6p7W0/giphy.gif)

(did you win?)

yes mate....I actually said you would post a picture (is it a GIF??) of someone doing something like I don't give a s**T or summit...for £25 that one....the £20 was for you not posting at all....haha...

TBH I do it a lot of the time with many posters when i'm on here...I actually do give the money to kids footy clubs or something where ever i'm working.....

I hope you don't take my posts personally...for me it's a just a time user upper when im bored stuck in the office doing reports/assessments etc.....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 30, 2020, 07:30:27 PM
yes mate....I actually said you would post a picture (is it a GIF??) of someone doing something like I don't give a s**T or summit...for £25 that one....the £20 was for you not posting at all....haha...

TBH I do it a lot of the time with many posters when i'm on here...I actually do give the money to kids footy clubs or something where ever i'm working.....

I hope you don't take my posts personally...for me it's a just a time user upper when im bored stuck in the office doing reports/assessments etc.....

Nah mate, I never take anything personally. I do like a good ol' interwebs argument though.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 30, 2020, 08:47:49 PM
good man that man...I didn't think you were that way inclined....

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on January 30, 2020, 08:56:29 PM
Disappointing.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 30, 2020, 09:04:22 PM
if he wants to pay for me to visit new York again... we could have a bindfolded boxing match....winner takes all..

yankee can video it and put it on here as I wouldn't have a clue how to do it...

but be warned yankee lad..i'm originally from park road Toxteth...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on January 30, 2020, 09:10:35 PM
if he wants to pay for me to visit new York again... we could have a bindfolded boxing match....winner takes all..

yankee can video it and put it on here as I wouldn't have a clue how to do it...

but be warned yankee lad..i'm originally from park road Toxteth...

I will see your Park Road Toxteth (whatever that is) and raise you a Brooklyn.

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/V72cCSHkJMktq/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on January 30, 2020, 09:22:57 PM
I've been to Brooklyn..no drama's....

tochy on the other hand...well......
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on January 30, 2020, 09:24:25 PM
Behave yourselves, don't make me get the internet fight gif out again!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: sam of the south on January 31, 2020, 02:18:16 AM
Itís turned into a post code virtual 69.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Audrey Horne on January 31, 2020, 03:59:32 AM
Boring
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on January 31, 2020, 04:19:49 AM
Anyway, back to Pickford. This would be a good game to prove his doubters wrong against Watford. They are gonna pepper his six yard box and make it difficult for him.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on February 08, 2020, 08:32:40 PM
Saw all that's good and bad in him today. Lets in a shocker to get Palace back in the game then pulls off a brilliant block to deny Benteke another equaliser.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Free Agent on February 08, 2020, 08:34:53 PM
Pickford 1
Upright  2

3pts anyway  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on February 08, 2020, 08:35:52 PM
I'm slowly starting to get on the upgrade train now. Mistakes are becoming too frequent.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on February 08, 2020, 08:38:39 PM
He could really go either way at this point. Crucial time for the lad. 

Iím deffo in the ďbloke down the pubĒ camp of thinking goalies peak very late but his trajectory is headed the wrong direction atm. You see those shots go under fairly frequently but he needs to register some consistent solid 7 performances rather than convincing himself heís got to pull out 10s week in week out.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on February 08, 2020, 08:48:10 PM
I still think heís worth holding on to but he really needs to stamp out these errors.

Listening to him at the end he knows heís got to do better but a positive is he doesnít seem to let mistakes affect him and he pulled off a very good save after the goal.

As said the best and worst - we need to see more of the best
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 08, 2020, 08:56:34 PM
I'm slowly starting to get on the upgrade train now. Mistakes are becoming too frequent.
It seems to happen more in games where we are dominant, think he has the attention span of a goldfish, which is an issue

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on February 08, 2020, 08:56:41 PM
Been saying it for a long while but sell sell sell, while he retains a decent value.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on February 08, 2020, 08:58:07 PM
I don't think we've ever seen a solid reliable run of games from him. Very talented but not enough consistency to suggest he'll improve enough to become elite level we expected when we paid all that money for him.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on February 08, 2020, 10:02:16 PM
Needs to go. Not urgently like, but all in good time.

His interview at the end.. "ya know, that just shows my character".

No Jordan, that just shows your flaws.

Can be excellent at times but a mistake is always around the corner.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on February 08, 2020, 10:13:56 PM
Absolute liability
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 08, 2020, 10:15:48 PM
Needs to go. Not urgently like, but all in good time.

His interview at the end.. "ya know, that just shows my character".

No Jordan, that just shows your flaws.

Can be excellent at times but a mistake is always around the corner.

Every keeper makes mistakes though, that's one of very few you'd look at and it'd be a unanimous decision that he massively fucked up.

Also redeemed himself with an amazing save later on which shows good mental strength and character.

Think we need to give him next season and evaluate under a more settled and hopefully stronger lineup
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 08, 2020, 10:17:35 PM
Every keeper makes mistakes though, that's one of very few you'd look at and it'd be a unanimous decision that he massively fucked up.

Also redeemed himself with an amazing save later on which shows good mental strength and character.

Think we need to give him next season and evaluate under a more settled and hopefully stronger lineup
In the first half he let one go which hits the post he is just adds to the absolute panic at times in our defending I think we need better
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 08, 2020, 10:21:36 PM
In the first half he let one go which hits the post he is just adds to the absolute panic at times in our defending I think we need better

Jesus how was he to blame for that?! That's a mad shout... Came through two players who should have cleared it, the latter was Coleman and it came through his legs, it then hits benteke on the chest and hits the post... You're clutching at straws somehow blaming him for that 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 08, 2020, 10:23:26 PM
Jesus how was he to blame for that?! That's a mad shout... Came through two players who should have cleared it, the latter was Coleman and it came through his legs, it then hits benteke on the chest and hits the post... You're clutching at straws somehow blaming him for that 🤣
Itís his fucking near post are you his mother or something the only embarrassing thing on here is your blind defence of this clown
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on February 08, 2020, 10:26:16 PM
Needs to go. Not urgently like, but all in good time.

His interview at the end.. "ya know, that just shows my character".

No Jordan, that just shows your flaws.

Can be excellent at times but a mistake is always around the corner.

Thought his interview spoke volumes.

When youíve had a mare be humble, accept your mistakes and move on. Donít try and paper over it with some immature form of self praise because you then made a save youíre expected to make.

His interview did indeed show his character, heís just not bright enough to grasp the irony.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 08, 2020, 10:29:24 PM
Itís his fucking near post are you his mother or something the only embarrassing thing on here is your blind defence of this clown

Sorry but your so wrong it's laughable, I'm not sure at which point during that you think he should have claimed the ball, but which ever part you're just wrong 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Crackling on February 08, 2020, 10:31:42 PM
Every keeper makes mistakes though, that's one of very few you'd look at and it'd be a unanimous decision that he massively fucked up.

Also redeemed himself with an amazing save later on which shows good mental strength and character.

Think we need to give him next season and evaluate under a more settled and hopefully stronger lineup
Does he redeem himself though?
A goalkeeper is there to stop shots that go straight at him. It's his job.

If a defender makes mistakes that directly lead to goals, we dont think they're good enough. Just because they make a tackle later in the game doesnt mean they aren't a liability.
Same goes for midfielders. Think about the grief Davies gets for giving the ball away in dangerous areas.

Pickford consistently makes bad mistakes that lead directly to goals.
If there is any chance to get rid, we should.
One if the worst 'keepers in the league and has been for some time.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 08, 2020, 10:34:47 PM
Does he redeem himself though?
A goalkeeper is there to stop shots that go straight at him. It's his job.

If a defender makes mistakes that directly lead to goals, we dont think they're good enough. Just because they make a tackle later in the game doesnt mean they aren't a liability.
Same goes for midfielders. Think about the grief Davies gets for giving the ball away in dangerous areas.

Pickford consistently makes bad mistakes that lead directly to goals.
If there is any chance to get rid, we should.
One if the worst 'keepers in the league and has been for some time.


I think the save he pulled off was fantastic tbh, not one most keepers would stop, so you could easily argue he evened it out.

I get though the flip side is a world class keeper doesn't let in the first AND saves that one, but I've lost count of the goals the likes of De Gea and Lloris have let in that were easy saves.  Every keeper is prone to one squirming under them, or going through their hands.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Polledreng on February 08, 2020, 10:37:20 PM
Does he redeem himself though?
A goalkeeper is there to stop shots that go straight at him. It's his job.

If a defender makes mistakes that directly lead to goals, we dont think they're good enough. Just because they make a tackle later in the game doesnt mean they aren't a liability.
Same goes for midfielders. Think about the grief Davies gets for giving the ball away in dangerous areas.

Pickford consistently makes bad mistakes that lead directly to goals.
If there is any chance to get rid, we should.
One if the worst 'keepers in the league and has been for some time.

  agree It looked more like  Benteke hitting him than him making a redemption save.  The Place keepers save from Sigurdsson was way better
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on February 08, 2020, 10:38:16 PM
That took a big deflection,  that was covered otherwise
In the first half he let one go which hits the post he is just adds to the absolute panic at times in our defending I think we need better

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 08, 2020, 10:39:44 PM
  agree It looked more like  Benteke hitting him than him making a redemption save.  The Place keepers save from Sigurdsson was way better

Came out quickly, closed the angle, positioned himself great and made himself big... Was excellent goalkeeping, very much what you see Casper Schmeichel doing great and other keepers attempting and the ball easily going past them
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 08, 2020, 10:41:11 PM
That took a big deflection,  that was covered otherwise
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Nah he should have cut it out somewhere apparently, probably should have stopped brexit and definitely at fault for the Corona virus too 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on February 08, 2020, 10:41:20 PM
We were wank today
His mistake emphasised how bad we were
His save probably kept us in the game and kept us go on and win
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: cantoffee on February 08, 2020, 10:45:28 PM
Needs to go. Not urgently like, but all in good time.

His interview at the end.. "ya know, that just shows my character".

No Jordan, that just shows your flaws.

Can be excellent at times but a mistake is always around the corner.
Don't have a problem with him having self belief - better than hiding and he does generally recover well from mistakes (ie doesn't seem to fall apart when they happen).

Has to know he makes too many mistakes and fix it or he'll end up somewhere like Palace. Willing to wait to see what he can do as he's still young but wouldn't be adverse to selling for the right offer.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on February 08, 2020, 10:47:25 PM
Drop him for a game or two
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jimmywhack on February 08, 2020, 10:52:01 PM
Who for tho?
Drop him for a game or two
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on February 08, 2020, 11:00:19 PM
Who for tho?

Jason Kearton
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 08, 2020, 11:02:49 PM
I think the save he pulled off was fantastic tbh, not one most keepers would stop, so you could easily argue he evened it out.

I get though the flip side is a world class keeper doesn't let in the first AND saves that one, but I've lost count of the goals the likes of De Gea and Lloris have let in that were easy saves.  Every keeper is prone to one squirming under them, or going through their hands.
We were in complete control of the game until he makes that mistake itís fine to say he redeemed himself but he brought palace back into the game with his mistakes
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on February 08, 2020, 11:04:25 PM
We were in complete control of the game until he makes that mistake itís fine to say he redeemed himself but he brought palace back into the game with his mistakes

We weren't in control at all, we were all over the place in the second half until we scored.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on February 08, 2020, 11:06:37 PM
I wish he would have saved the easy shot and let in the hard one.


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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 08, 2020, 11:11:38 PM
We weren't in control at all, we were all over the place in the second half until we scored.
They had no shot on target until they scored when that went in the atmosphere changed and we went to shit which was caused by Pickford
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on February 08, 2020, 11:14:48 PM
They had no shot on target until they scored when that went in the atmosphere changed and we went to shit which was caused by Pickford

Just because they didn't have a shot on target doesn't mean we were "in complete control". We were a shambles at the start of the second half, we were nothing like in control. Even our second was against the run of play.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 08, 2020, 11:19:11 PM
Just because they didn't have a shot on target doesn't mean we were "in complete control". We were a shambles at the start of the second half, we were nothing like in control. Even our second was against the run of play.
Yeah but my point is that Pickford is costing us granted he pulled off a good save after the blunder but he is the main cause of the panic that takes over us like today when they scored
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on February 08, 2020, 11:22:27 PM
Yeah but my point is that Pickford is costing us granted he pulled off a good save after the blunder but he is the main cause of the panic that takes over us like today when they scored

Well unless he fumbled his Gatorade in the changing room at half time it wasn't his fault we were pancking and inviting them on right from the start of the second half.

It was an absolute howler, no arguing with that but if anything they were in control, not us.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on February 08, 2020, 11:55:59 PM
I think the save he pulled off was fantastic tbh, not one most keepers would stop, so you could easily argue he evened it out.

I get though the flip side is a world class keeper doesn't let in the first AND saves that one, but I've lost count of the goals the likes of De Gea and Lloris have let in that were easy saves.  Every keeper is prone to one squirming under them, or going through their hands.

Lloris is shit.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 12:00:02 AM
Lloris is shit.

He's definitely not like 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on February 09, 2020, 12:01:01 AM
I think the save he pulled off was fantastic tbh, not one most keepers would stop, so you could easily argue he evened it out.

I get though the flip side is a world class keeper doesn't let in the first AND saves that one, but I've lost count of the goals the likes of De Gea and Lloris have let in that were easy saves.  Every keeper is prone to one squirming under them, or going through their hands.

Surely that doesnít even it out. Itís a very good save but that doesnít even out throwing 1 in his own net. Very good keepers are meant to make some of them saves and not give goals away. It evens it out in a sense of a league 2 player would have only conceded the 1 goal
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 12:06:34 AM
Well unless he fumbled his Gatorade in the changing room at half time it wasn't his fault we were pancking and inviting them on right from the start of the second half.

It was an absolute howler, no arguing with that but if anything they were in control, not us.

Exactly this, there was all sorts of panicky shit going on long before the goal, the corner that two players failed to intercept, one being Coleman but not sure who the other was ( which hit Benteke and then the post)... Mina's horrific attempt to overhead kick the ball away which nearly resulted in him either flicking it in to our net or letting one of their players slot in (there was another bit of panic that lead to this too but can't remember what)... There was Keane's appalling left footed attempt at a clearance after a iffy ball by Mina to him in our box that went straight to one of their players about 25 yards out.

Countless moments of pant shitting before the goal, non of which involved Pickford but some how he's to blame for all that?

I've said it before, the agenda has been set, doesn't matter about if most of it is actually factual or just made up bull shit.

Totally at fault for their goal, no two ways about it, but some people don't half spout a load of shite about things on here.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 09, 2020, 12:09:37 AM
Exactly this, there was all sorts of panicky shit going on long before the goal, the corner that two players failed to intercept, one being Coleman but not sure who the other was ( which hit Benteke and then the post)... Mina's horrific attempt to overhead kick the ball away which nearly resulted in him either flicking it in to our net or letting one of their players slot in (there was another bit of panic that lead to this too but can't remember what)... There was Keane's appalling left footed attempt at a clearance after a iffy ball by Mina to him in our box that went straight to one of their players about 25 yards out.

Countless moments of pant shitting before the goal, non of which involved Pickford but some how he's to blame for all that?

I've said it before, the agenda has been set, doesn't matter about if most of it is actually factual or just made up bull shit.

Totally at fault for their goal, no two ways about it, but some people don't half spout a load of shite about things on here.
You are the one spouting shit read back the last 10 pages you are literally the only one constantly defending him he will cost us dearly before the season is over
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 12:12:26 AM
You are the one spouting shit read back the last 10 pages you are literally the only one constantly defending him he will cost us dearly before the season is over

Ok if you say so 👍
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Gash on February 09, 2020, 12:24:54 AM
I've said it before, the agenda has been set, doesn't matter about if most of it is actually factual or just made up bull shit.

Agendas run both ways, it's just your agenda  is massively in favour of Pickford.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 09, 2020, 12:26:52 AM
Sell for 35m.
Buy Strakosha for 20m.

Profit.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Mayor Farnum on February 09, 2020, 12:33:20 AM
He's definitely not like 🤣
I can understand why someone who is impressed with Pickford would also be impressed with Lloris. They can both be eye-catching, but it's that style that also accounts for their flaws.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 12:56:37 AM
Agendas run both ways, it's just your agenda  is massively in favour of Pickford.

It's not that it's massively in Pickford's favour, it's that I can't abide the silliness of some people's comments and blaming him for stuff he's not at fault for, or not solely at fault for.

I don't think Pickford's the perfect keeper, he needs to mature or he's got Joe Hart demise ahead of him.  He has his faults and issues, it's just very few directly lead to goals against, which is not the line trotted out by certain people on here, where they claim literally every goal pretty much is his fault
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 12:58:47 AM
I can understand why someone who is impressed with Pickford would also be impressed with Lloris. They can both be eye-catching, but it's that style that also accounts for their flaws.

Sure he's eye catching, and he does sometimes fuck up... I love Dr Gea but he fucks up too, also pulls off some insane saves.  Not many steady Eddie's really make for interesting viewing
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on February 09, 2020, 02:04:09 AM
It's not that it's massively in Pickford's favour, it's that I can't abide the silliness of some people's comments and blaming him for stuff he's not at fault for, or not solely at fault for.

I don't think Pickford's the perfect keeper, he needs to mature or he's got Joe Hart demise ahead of him.  He has his faults and issues, it's just very few directly lead to goals against, which is not the line trotted out by certain people on here, where they claim literally every goal pretty much is his fault

Maybe just let people have an opinion hey. Instead of hijacking every post with your expert knowledge which apparently supersedes everyone elseís.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 02:09:44 AM
Maybe just let people have an opinion hey. Instead of hijacking every post with your expert knowledge which apparently supersedes everyone elseís.

Ah the old 'keep your opinions to yourself' post in reference to people posting on an internet forum... Wondered how long it'd take for that one to be churned out... Again 🤣🤦‍♂️😒
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 09, 2020, 02:56:53 AM
I'm struggling to remember this wonder save today, only noticeable involvement from Picks today apart from missing a shot 99% of keepers save was when Benteke headed the ball straight at him, or is that the save people are referring too?

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on February 09, 2020, 03:02:46 AM
It's not that it's massively in Pickford's favour, it's that I can't abide the silliness of some people's comments and blaming him for stuff he's not at fault for, or not solely at fault for.

I don't think Pickford's the perfect keeper, he needs to mature or he's got Joe Hart demise ahead of him.  He has his faults and issues, it's just very few directly lead to goals against, which is not the line trotted out by certain people on here, where they claim literally every goal pretty much is his fault
When alls said and done, you clearly rate Pickford and I respect your opinion, but just cant agree with it or understand what you have founded it on tbh.

He makes the odd good save like today, but none of us can ever feel he is a safe pair of hands in any scenario as he is an accident waiting to happen constantly.

He also just doesnt save enough shots which is my major problem with him.






Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: bluenuck on February 09, 2020, 03:05:05 AM
Said it before and I'll say it again.

He's not shite, but he's not great either.`Needs a sports psychologist or something. His head goes to much. He needs to focus way more/better.

He lets that goal in that he did today against a really good team and we probably don't win... He has to clean it up.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 03:34:46 AM
When alls said and done, you clearly rate Pickford and I respect your opinion, but just cant agree with it or understand what you have founded it on tbh.

He makes the odd good save like today, but none of us can ever feel he is a safe pair of hands in any scenario as he is an accident waiting to happen constantly.

He also just doesnt save enough shots which is my major problem with him.








I think we just need to give him next season and see where we're at, he's still relatively young for a keeper and plays in front of a shaky defence and midfield.

I get what you're saying about not seeming to save enough shots, I just think the shots we concede tend to be easier chances then some other teams.

Next year I think makes or breaks him, he's got the skills to be a top drawer keeper, but I think the team as a whole has been poorly managed until recently and this has lead to us having a shaky panicky defence... Which still rears it's head occasionally under the new . manager
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 03:36:48 AM
I'm struggling to remember this wonder save today, only noticeable involvement from Picks today apart from missing a shot 99% of keepers save was when Benteke headed the ball straight at him, or is that the save people are referring too?

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He didn't head it straight at him though, Pickford moved and spread himself to block it.  It's the type of save Schmeichel gets praise for and Pickford gets no credit for at all.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 09, 2020, 03:40:05 AM
I think we just need to give him next season and see where we're at, he's still relatively young for a keeper and plays in front of a shaky defence and midfield.

I get what you're saying about not seeming to save enough shots, I just think the shots we concede tend to be easier chances then some other teams.

Next year I think makes or breaks him, he's got the skills to be a top drawer keeper, but I think the team as a whole has been poorly managed until recently and this has lead to us having a shaky panicky defence... Which still rears it's head occasionally under the new . manager
I admire your optimism but I've been steadfast in the fact that he is the root problem of a majority of our shakiness. He doesn't command his area, poor and coming for crosses, erratic as fuck, the only thing that has kept him in people's mind is the odd good bit of distribution, without that he is bang average, that's not being harsh, that's just fact. Id personally be happy just to recoup what we paid for him

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 09, 2020, 03:42:26 AM
He didn't head it straight at him though, Pickford moved and spread himself to block it.  It's the type of save Schmeichel gets praise for and Pickford gets no credit for at all.
Pickford closed the space well, but a better striker scores there. Benteke hit him pretty flush, it wasn't directed at all.
If it was one of our strikers we'd be saying he had to score there

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 09, 2020, 04:06:01 AM
He didn't head it straight at him though, Pickford moved and spread himself to block it.  It's the type of save Schmeichel gets praise for and Pickford gets no credit for at all.

I just watched the save again, it was 25% being in the right place, 75% a wicked reaction to get his right arm in the way. Excellent save and I'll have no probs saying it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on February 09, 2020, 04:09:29 AM
I just watched the save again, it was 25% being in the right place, 75% a wicked reaction to get his right arm in the way. Excellent save and I'll have no probs saying it.
It was a good save....cant deny that
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on February 09, 2020, 08:22:10 AM
He just isnít very good. Iím coming to terms with that

When benteke scored it was the 5th shot on target in a row that Pickford had conceded from

Consistently near the bottom of the league when it comes to shots saved. Always had the excuse of playing behind a poor defence but now weíre sorted under Carlo heís still conceding soft goals.

Firmly in the get rid camp now.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 01:53:16 PM
I just watched the save again, it was 25% being in the right place, 75% a wicked reaction to get his right arm in the way. Excellent save and I'll have no probs saying it.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this, it's a fantastic save!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
I admire your optimism but I've been steadfast in the fact that he is the root problem of a majority of our shakiness. He doesn't command his area, poor and coming for crosses, erratic as fuck, the only thing that has kept him in people's mind is the odd good bit of distribution, without that he is bang average, that's not being harsh, that's just fact. Id personally be happy just to recoup what we paid for him

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I don't think he commands his area like some keepers but I think he's reasonable at dealing with crosses... After the Benteke save he came out for a really difficult deep cross and took it fantastically well.

I think a lot of our shakiness comes from players personally, like Keane and Mina, both showed massive shakiness in the 2nd half and neither was anything to do with Pickford.  Add in to that the clusterfuck set piece set up under Silva and it starts to add up to being harsh imo to blame it all on Pickford.

Give him next season, and then decide on his future imo, I think our entire team will be different mentally (and some players changing) which makes it easier / better to judge
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: BlueNoseMike on February 09, 2020, 02:42:04 PM
Who do we get for him? I'd have had that henderson at sheffield united but think he is a long term de gea replacement to be honest.

Don't know about many on the continent bar the top.ones who wouldn't come to us anyway. Nobody else in the prem stands out to me
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KingdingalingNL on February 09, 2020, 02:44:18 PM
Who do we get for him? I'd have had that henderson at sheffield united but think he is a long term de gea replacement to be honest.

Don't know about many on the continent bar the top.ones who wouldn't come to us anyway. Nobody else in the prem stands out to me

Andrť Onana would be my choice.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: christiffa25 on February 09, 2020, 02:56:07 PM
Still a young keeper really, who at this point seems to have a brain fart every now and again. However makes excellent saves also. Not a major concern currently with where we are and where weíre looking to go.

The decision comes in a couple of years if heís still having them moments and we are trying to challenge at the very top end and heís costing us.

Personally think people need to chill and get behind him. We donít half write players off quick and turn against them.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 09, 2020, 06:02:32 PM
Who do we get for him? I'd have had that henderson at sheffield united but think he is a long term de gea replacement to be honest.

Don't know about many on the continent bar the top.ones who wouldn't come to us anyway. Nobody else in the prem stands out to me

Strakosha, Lazio's keeper. Top class.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on February 09, 2020, 06:19:23 PM
Don't forget he very nearly fucked up in the Coleman penalty incident, coming out to smother a pretty routine ball and let it squirm free resulting in chaos.

The lad's game is becoming increasingly erratic and he isn't even making routine saves anymore. I'd much rather he saved Benteke's pass back and let in the point blank header.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Faceatthefence on February 09, 2020, 06:32:52 PM
Who do we get for him? I'd have had that henderson at sheffield united but think he is a long term de gea replacement to be honest.

Don't know about many on the continent bar the top.ones who wouldn't come to us anyway. Nobody else in the prem stands out to me
Donnarumma at ac.milan.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on February 09, 2020, 08:25:00 PM
Don't forget he very nearly fucked up in the Coleman penalty incident, coming out to smother a pretty routine ball and let it squirm free resulting in chaos.

The lad's game is becoming increasingly erratic and he isn't even making routine saves anymore. I'd much rather he saved Benteke's pass back and let in the point blank header.
That was not a routine ball he came out to smother. Zaha has nicked it from Digne so he has a few seconds to get to it, and gets there just inches before Zaha's boot. Plenty of keepers would not be getting there in time. He does spill it after, but Zaha follows through and clearly fouls him. If the ref gave a pen, I reckon VAR would over turn it for a foul on Pickford.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on February 09, 2020, 08:36:13 PM
Think VAR must have gone on their winter break yesterday, not a single intervention despite a couple of incidents where VAR have intervened for far less in previous games.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: blargins on February 09, 2020, 08:57:15 PM
I'm prepared to give him another season. He makes howlers, but so do the best. He's still young for a keeper and I think Carlo will be of benefit to him in the long run.

Other areas to sort first, midlfield and a quality right back and replacement for Keane.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 09, 2020, 08:58:43 PM
I'm prepared to give him another season. He makes howlers, but so do the best. He's still young for a keeper and I think Carlo will be of benefit to him in the long run.

Other areas to sort first, midlfield and a quality right back and replacement for Keane.

As one of his more vocal critics, I completely agree. Not arsed in the least about GK until summer 2021 at the earliest.

edit: unless Usmanov emerges from the shadows and we triple our revenue, in which case I expect Ter Stegen to be in net by next season.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 09:00:47 PM
That was not a routine ball he came out to smother. Zaha has nicked it from Digne so he has a few seconds to get to it, and gets there just inches before Zaha's boot. Plenty of keepers would not be getting there in time. He does spill it after, but Zaha follows through and clearly fouls him. If the ref gave a pen, I reckon VAR would over turn it for a foul on Pickford.

Yup!  Sometime I think people must be watching a different game with their assessments of incidents involving Pickford... It's like there was no one within 10 yards of him and he just dropped it or something!

It's a strange world we live in!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 09, 2020, 09:04:01 PM
Yup!  Sometime I think people must be watching a different game with their assessments of incidents involving Pickford... It's like there was no one within 10 yards of him and he just dropped it or something!

It's a strange world we live in!

Sort of like how you criticize Kean ;)
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 09, 2020, 10:55:02 PM
Sort of like how you criticize Kean ;)

Haha think I may have revised my opinion on him 🤣
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Thomas on February 10, 2020, 09:57:50 AM
I'd sell him. I dont like his arrogance or attitude  then telling the BBC he is getting stick for his performances because he is an England player. He made 4 errors that led to goals last season and has already made 2 this year.

He either needs to cut those out, say he needs to improve, make good on that or we find someone else.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Old England Toffee on February 10, 2020, 10:58:03 AM
I'd sell him. I dont like his arrogance or attitude  then telling the BBC he is getting stick for his performances because he is an England player. He made 4 errors that led to goals last season and has already made 2 this year.

He either needs to cut those out, say he needs to improve, make good on that or we find someone else.
On the point of england players getting more shit, thats totally true, even if its only because the press want to sell more papers/ad space or because pundits want to be heard. In terms of errors, hopefully you or a forum statto can tell me about those errors, if they can be quantified, how they compare to other keepers in the same bracket, how they relate to possible replacement keepers etc.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on February 10, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
The media will soon be getting on the Dean Henderson train and heís not getting his England place back after that on current form.

He needs to be careful here and knuckle down as if Carlo turns too it could soon be a nightmare for the lad.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on February 10, 2020, 01:22:07 PM
Heís completely right with what heís said about being Englandís number one.

Thereís so much scrutiny on him, whilst people like pope and Henderson are now being overhyped as the media push for them to be his replacement.

Itís something he just has to live with. Does feel like since he came back from the World Cup his head has gone and heís not been the same keeper.

The errors donít concern me. Every keeper makes them. Him not saving many shots is the biggest concern.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: hannu on February 10, 2020, 01:22:23 PM
I'd sell him. I dont like his arrogance or attitude  then telling the BBC he is getting stick for his performances because he is an England player. He made 4 errors that led to goals last season and has already made 2 this year.

He either needs to cut those out, say he needs to improve, make good on that or we find someone else.

Delph has made more errors leading to goals but has only played about 4 times, slight exaggeration on the amount of games he has played
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bob Sacamano on February 10, 2020, 01:59:15 PM
Heís completely right with what heís said about being Englandís number one.

Thereís so much scrutiny on him, whilst people like pope and Henderson are now being overhyped as the media push for them to be his replacement.

Itís something he just has to live with. Does feel like since he came back from the World Cup his head has gone and heís not been the same keeper.

The errors donít concern me. Every keeper makes them. Him not saving many shots is the biggest concern.

The boy has got me 50/50 atm without doubt and Iím generally a fan as I think his ceiling is rather high, his shots saved stats are a concern but I recall de Gea having equally poor % for Utd and Spain not too long ago. He also gets a lot of stick but you canít deny heís a quality keeper also.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Thomas on February 10, 2020, 02:00:02 PM
Heís completely right with what heís said about being Englandís number one.

Thereís so much scrutiny on him, whilst people like pope and Henderson are now being overhyped as the media push for them to be his replacement.

Itís something he just has to live with. Does feel like since he came back from the World Cup his head has gone and heís not been the same keeper.

The errors donít concern me. Every keeper makes them. Him not saving many shots is the biggest concern.

He's talking complete shit.

Joe Hart got criticized for playing badly and making errors. Not being England No1.

Pickford is no different.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on February 10, 2020, 02:16:07 PM
He's talking complete shit.

Joe Hart got criticized for playing badly and making errors. Not being England No1.

Pickford is no different.

No. Joe Hart was England No 1 so his errors were magnified while other keepers made them and it went under the radar.

As it happens Joe Hart was never a great keeper but Pickford has the potential to be, he just needs to start doing the basics right again. The bare minimum any defence expects from the guy behind them is that he does the routine stuff with minimum fuss, the rest is a bonus. Heís currently failing at the base level.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Alanvideo on February 10, 2020, 02:58:26 PM
Whatever your opinion of Pickford he needs some competition for his Everton place. I think Stek is out of contract in summer so we need to buy another PL standard keeper to challenge Pickford.
Don't knpw what the Lossi situaation is at this stage.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Toddacelli on February 10, 2020, 03:12:19 PM
I'm a big fan of his abilities, but I'm starting to fear his flaws more and more.

Benteke's shot went through him like smoke on Saturday.

If we get midfield nailed next year and that settles the defence, he'll get a chance to settle and mature for another season.

If we're still having threads like this by then - it's time to sell him to Southampton.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 10, 2020, 03:14:17 PM
On the point of england players getting more shit, thats totally true, even if its only because the press want to sell more papers/ad space or because pundits want to be heard. In terms of errors, hopefully you or a forum statto can tell me about those errors, if they can be quantified, how they compare to other keepers in the same bracket, how they relate to possible replacement keepers etc.

I think that last part is the bit that annoys me the most, a lot of opinions have no reference point when it comes to other keepers... People criticse Pickford without any sort of base point to compare his errors and good points against.

I've seen people say his distribution is shite, but actually if you even watched the Watford game you'd see Vs Foster it was far superior... And same with balls in to the box, Pickford out performed Foster, and Foster is actually a very good keeper.

I've not seen a lot of Henderson but I haven't been blown away by what I've seen... He let one through his hands in to the net earlier this season which was every bit as bad as Pickford's at the weekend, and seen him come out for stuff and got nowhere near.

It's fine to want more from Pickford, but some of the criticisms or calls for x or y keeper to replace him aren't based on any real comparison or being cross referenced against other keeper's highs and lows over a full season
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on February 10, 2020, 03:18:17 PM
England's no.1 will always get scrutinized more than any other goalie. I remember it happening at least as far back as Seaman. Recently it has gotten a lot worse. The goalie is always the easiest target for pundits to have a go at because you can show one clip of a mistake that leads to a goal and use that to justify calling him a shit keeper. You can find 10 clips of Messi missing tap ins but no one has ever called him shit.
Some England keepers have been strong enough to deal with it, others (Kirkland, Carson) have literally had their careers ruined by it.
Pickford's mistake will lead to a new round of calls for him to be dropped from England for the new golden boy Henderson, even though his mistake against Liverpool was much worse and cost his team the game.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 10, 2020, 03:39:38 PM
England's no.1 will always get scrutinized more than any other goalie. I remember it happening at least as far back as Seaman. Recently it has gotten a lot worse. The goalie is always the easiest target for pundits to have a go at because you can show one clip of a mistake that leads to a goal and use that to justify calling him a shit keeper. You can find 10 clips of Messi missing tap ins but no one has ever called him shit.
Some England keepers have been strong enough to deal with it, others (Kirkland, Carson) have literally had their careers ruined by it.
Pickford's mistake will lead to a new round of calls for him to be dropped from England for the new golden boy Henderson, even though his mistake against Liverpool was much worse and cost his team the game.

Yes Liverpool... Couldn't remember who it was against, but yes cost them way more in that match then the Pickford error at the weekend
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on February 10, 2020, 03:49:17 PM
Thing is, Englands number 1 or not, the scrutiny is justified as he doesnt save enough shots. This is not just this season but pretty much every season  looking at the stats which show he is outperformed constantly.

The question is whether he is good enough for Everton never mind England.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: The Blue 3/4 of Liverpool on February 10, 2020, 03:58:57 PM
Heís too inconsistent for me. Still. I hope he has a good Euros and somebody buys him for £40+ mil and Carlo gets a choice of HIS number one. If we want to progress we have to steadily improve our quality, without any sentimental fannying around.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on February 10, 2020, 04:05:24 PM
He needs to keep his mouth shut and get on with his job, because saying shit like this is gonna make the stick he gets 10 times worse.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 10, 2020, 04:08:11 PM
Yes Liverpool... Couldn't remember who it was against, but yes cost them way more in that match then the Pickford error at the weekend
What about Pickford error against Liverpool last season you tend to forget things like that
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 10, 2020, 04:14:46 PM
He needs to keep his mouth shut and get on with his job, because saying shit like this is gonna make the stick he gets 10 times worse.
Yep, he needs to show a bit of humility, gobbing off when you've massively fucked up helps no one. I don't think the England reference is right either, if you perform people are fine with that, he should appreciate that his form has been off, take it on the chin and move on as the criticism is actually warranted, irrespective of him playing for England or the bloody Faroe Islands he hasn't been good enough.

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on February 10, 2020, 04:38:58 PM
What about Pickford error against Liverpool last season you tend to forget things like that
I think its difficult to judge Goalies on errors, unless they are either very frequent or they're making the same error over again. The best way to judge a keeper regarding errors is on how they deal with it. Do they shrug it off or do they go to pieces? Dean Henderson made an awful mistake against Liverpool he made an even worse mistake for the U21s this summer. He's still a very good keeper and in fact has put in some great performances since. Last year Pickford made 4 errors that lead to goals and I think we are all in agreement that he should have done better. Yet Alisson Becker made 3 errors that lead to goals last season and he got voted best Goalkeeper in Europe.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 10, 2020, 05:19:01 PM
I think its difficult to judge Goalies on errors, unless they are either very frequent or they're making the same error over again. The best way to judge a keeper regarding errors is on how they deal with it. Do they shrug it off or do they go to pieces? Dean Henderson made an awful mistake against Liverpool he made an even worse mistake for the U21s this summer. He's still a very good keeper and in fact has put in some great performances since. Last year Pickford made 4 errors that lead to goals and I think we are all in agreement that he should have done better. Yet Alisson Becker made 3 errors that lead to goals last season and he got voted best Goalkeeper in Europe.
True, but isn't Pickford bottom of the gk league table this year for a lot of things?

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on February 10, 2020, 05:40:51 PM
Yes. I'm not saying Pickford has had a good season, just that goalkeeping errors are not a good way to judge a keeper. They all make them. Dubravka has made more errors than Pickford yet the Geordies idolise him. If Pickford had been having a great season, pulling off great saves commanding his area, we would probably be laughing off his mistake.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 10, 2020, 05:57:01 PM
Yes. I'm not saying Pickford has had a good season, just that goalkeeping errors are not a good way to judge a keeper. They all make them. Dubravka has made more errors than Pickford yet the Geordies idolise him. If Pickford had been having a great season, pulling off great saves commanding his area, we would probably be laughing off his mistake.
You're possibly right, the thing that frustrates me is it appears to be his mental fragility that's the issue. On Saturday he basically had nothing to do, his first real engagement was to let that in, which frankly swung the whole tempo of the game and we got lucky they didn't score again. Moving forward I hope we have more games where we dominate and we don't need him, but he needs to work on this to make sure when he is called into action after 50+minutes of doing nothing that he's awake and aware, otherwise he needs to go

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on February 10, 2020, 06:21:25 PM
If someone comes in with  £30m+ offer then by all means take it but I'm prepared to give him the opportunity to turn things around now that we can (hopefully) finally settle down with a manager and way of playing.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 06:34:10 PM
I'm not reading through this thread again as I think my thoughts on pickford are obvious...was expecting a backlash on him because of his error on Saturday....but to repeat, without reading the backpages of the thread....I suggest no ones mentioned the great save he made after the mistake?

plus even though it was Benteke...it was a very good strike by him he couldn't have hit it better right at the feet of pickford...ye coach strikers to hit it as near to the keepers feet as possible.....most keepers would have kicked it away...pickford 9 times out of 10 would have kicked it away...for some reason he went with his hands and missed it the tit....but these things happen... a split second decision that was the wrong decision.....goalies just cant afford to miss those..a player can but a keeper cant...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on February 10, 2020, 06:42:54 PM
I'm not reading through this thread again as I think my thoughts on pickford are obvious...was expecting a backlash on him because of his error on Saturday....but to repeat, without reading the backpages of the thread....I suggest no ones mentioned the great save he made after the mistake?

plus even though it was Benteke...it was a very good strike by him he couldn't have hit it better right at the feet of pickford...ye coach strikers to hit it as near to the keepers feet as possible.....most keepers would have kicked it away...pickford 9 times out of 10 would have kicked it away...for some reason he went with his hands and missed it the tit....but these things happen... a split second decision that was the wrong decision.....goalies just cant afford to miss those..a player can but a keeper cant...

Come on that wasnít a great strike by Benteke. He scuffed it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 10, 2020, 06:51:15 PM
What about Pickford error against Liverpool last season you tend to forget things like that

My point isn't Pickford doesn't make mistakes, it's that every keeper does.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on February 10, 2020, 06:57:50 PM
The boy has got me 50/50 atm without doubt and Iím generally a fan as I think his ceiling is rather high, his shots saved stats are a concern but I recall de Gea having equally poor % for Utd and Spain not too long ago. He also gets a lot of stick but you canít deny heís a quality keeper also.
Only 50/50 ? You were so sure he was top class not so long ago.....glad to see you are coming round finally  ;D
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 06:59:00 PM
Come on that wasnít a great strike by Benteke. He scuffed it.

did he fkk..he touched it out of his feet and hit it well...in the right place too

but not making excuses pickford shuda saved it...and good thing is he knows it....

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on February 10, 2020, 06:59:46 PM
True, but isn't Pickford bottom of the gk league table this year for a lot of things?

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I had a look at this yesterday, havenít got the link as on my phone at the moment. Heís not bottom but heís bottom half and should be doing better. I donít think even he would argue with that - he admitted he fucked up on Saturday

Still think he has the potential to be a very good goalkeeper and keep his no.1 spot for England.

Itís true that heíll be scrutinised because of the fact heís Englands no.1 and heíll get stick if he messes up. Thatís something heís got to learn to live with as itíll always happen.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 07:04:15 PM
and because he's a confident lad he comes over as arrogant ( in most people's opinion)Ö.therefore when he defends himself like this "he should keep his mouth shut".....

after all it was those 2 great goalkeepers themselves... Carragher and Neville having a go at him....
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on February 10, 2020, 07:04:55 PM
You're possibly right, the thing that frustrates me is it appears to be his mental fragility that's the issue. On Saturday he basically had nothing to do, his first real engagement was to let that in, which frankly swung the whole tempo of the game and we got lucky they didn't score again. Moving forward I hope we have more games where we dominate and we don't need him, but he needs to work on this to make sure when he is called into action after 50+minutes of doing nothing that he's awake and aware, otherwise he needs to go

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I don't think its mental fragility but he does seem to lose focus/concentration sometimes especially when he doesn't have much to do. Someone mentioned a sports psychologist before and its not a bad idea, although he will probably have to admit he needs one first.
I used to hang out with someone who played Goalkeeper at a high level (Champion's League, Internationals etc.) He told me that it is much easier to play in a game where you have 20 shots at you than in a game where you only have 1 shot to deal with. In Pickford's season at Sunderland and in his first season with us he faced a lot more shots and seemed a much better keeper. The last 2 seasons our defence has improved and he's having less shots to deal with. Maybe he needs help to not lose his focus when he's not got anything to do.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Martip on February 10, 2020, 07:11:29 PM
and because he's a confident lad he comes over as arrogant ( in most people's opinion)Ö.therefore when he defends himself like this "he should keep his mouth shut".....

after all it was those 2 great goalkeepers themselves... Carragher and Neville having a go at him....
Thing is he doesnt help himself. Hes been pictured out and about scrapping and downing pints and been involved with opposition fans.

People would cut him some slack for those things if he was performing on the pitch, but truth is he isnt. So hes a bell end and not very good which is an difficult combo to support for many.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on February 10, 2020, 07:15:51 PM
Come on that wasnít a great strike by Benteke. He scuffed it.

It was a tame effort from a player struggling with confidence that hadn't scored for as long as he had. When Pickford plucks a ball from the air in his six yard box, I am pleased, yet it should be the norm that doesn't leave us to applaud it because it would be nice if we expected a calm, composed,consistent and commanding presence in goal. He may have talent but I don't see how he excels in any of those four attributes required for a top class goalkeeper.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 07:20:09 PM
It was a tame effort from a player struggling with confidence that hadn't scored for as long as he had. When Pickford plucks a ball from the air in his six yard box, I am pleased, yet it should be the norm that doesn't leave us to applaud it because it would be nice if we expected a calm, composed,consistent and commanding presence in goal. He may have talent but I don't see how he excels in any of those four attributes required for a top class goalkeeper.

and yet every professional goalkeeper, the majority of professional coaches, the England manager and all his team mates both internationals and local..... do rate him....

but you know best eh ?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 07:30:23 PM
Thing is he doesnt help himself. Hes been pictured out and about scrapping and downing pints and been involved with opposition fans.

People would cut him some slack for those things if he was performing on the pitch, but truth is he isnt. So hes a bell end and not very good which is an difficult combo to support for many.

ok i'll handle this one again...Ö
1. he is performing on the pitch...yes he makes the occasional mistake...most keepers do...he saves us more than fkks up....
2. scrapping...handbags actually after some dik called his fiancť a fukking fat gold digging slag....but he's not allowed to defend her..okÖ
3. downing pints....you missed standing on a chair.....and from what I saw he downed 1 pint NOT pintSÖ.but don't let that cloud your opinion...
4. involved with opposition fans...he had a laugh with the Newcastle fans when they were having a go at him......I remember Gordon west getting a hanbag given to him by a koppite at anfield...then he threw it at him...big nev threatening to kick fuck out of I think it was luton fans away at their ground.....coming out at half time sitting leaning against his goal post and giving wanking sign to the away fans when they started having a go at him....but hey....
5. He's a bell end..i take it you know him personally then?? no I thought not....
6. not very good...see other post.....even friggin danny murphy defended him this morning....Christsakes...
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on February 10, 2020, 07:31:59 PM
and yet every professional goalkeeper, the majority of professional coaches, the England manager and all his team mates both internationals and local..... do rate him....

but you know best eh ?

Sorry, when did I say I know best? When did you hear about all these professional goalkeepers rating him for example? I am saying he doesnít excel in calmness, composure, doesnít command his area well enough and is not consistent enough. Iím saying that is what I prefer, as an Evertonian, contributing to a forum. Do you understand that? Do you think he excels in any of the above?


Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: NickNack on February 10, 2020, 07:44:14 PM
The thing for me is that he doesnít let his head drop when he does fuck up which is an important attribute in any player but especially a goalkeeper. Maybe that part of his nature makes him come across as a bit cocky / arrogant.

He definitely seems to suffer from lapses in concentration - if he sorts that out I think weíve got a good keeper. Many on here and elsewhere thought the goalkeeping situation was sorted for years when he signed, no reason why that still canít be the case.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on February 10, 2020, 07:47:05 PM
and because he's a confident lad he comes over as arrogant ( in most people's opinion)Ö.therefore when he defends himself like this "he should keep his mouth shut".....

after all it was those 2 great goalkeepers themselves... Carragher and Neville having a go at him....

Is he a confident lad? I know he says he is but in my experience the people I know who are confident rarely have to tell people about it, they exude it as a character trait.

He strikes me as someone who's not the brightest so he struts around to create that impression whereas in his general play there's just too much flapping and general 'noise' going on to give his defenders much confidence he has things covered, which is what you want.

I'm not giving up on him and he can still turn things around but he's needs to start maturing to get thing back on track again.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: KoemansNumberTens on February 10, 2020, 07:59:38 PM
and yet every professional goalkeeper, the majority of professional coaches, the England manager and all his team mates both internationals and local..... do rate him....

but you know best eh ?

With that argument we might as well shut the forum. We couldnít discuss anything as none of us know better than the person whoís making the decisions
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on February 10, 2020, 08:10:50 PM
He's boss and you all know it

He's a goalkeeper, they are supposed to be mental, and their mistakes are always highlighted.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on February 10, 2020, 08:14:22 PM
Someone who is truly confident deep down takes on board other people's comments and criticisms and tries to improve from it, because they're not threatened by it.

Somehow who says 'criticism doesn't affect me' or 'I don't listen to what anyone else says' probably isn't all that confident.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 08:23:39 PM
Sorry, when did I say I know best? When did you hear about all these professional goalkeepers rating him for example? I am saying he doesnít excel in calmness, composure, doesnít command his area well enough and is not consistent enough. Iím saying that is what I prefer, as an Evertonian, contributing to a forum. Do you understand that? Do you think he excels in any of the above?

not having a dig here ...but wwas you t the match on Saturday ? if you were you must have seen him come and catch a few crosses into the box....how many times do you see him telling the his defenders and outfield players to calm down...I find him very composed to the point that it's argued he's arrogant by most people....you cant be arrogant and not composed....and I've said it previously in this thread and others......9/10 on a one on one you'd bet on him....he has big defenders in front of him and he does tend to let them do the challenging but he does come and collect when he required.....
again just my opinion..
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 08:26:21 PM
He's boss and you all know it

He's a goalkeeper, they are supposed to be mental, and their mistakes are always highlighted.

unless they play for everton it appears mate...then they have to be infallible......
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Juanito on February 10, 2020, 08:35:45 PM
Someone who is truly confident deep down takes on board other people's comments and criticisms and tries to improve from it, because they're not threatened by it.

Somehow who says 'criticism doesn't affect me' or 'I don't listen to what anyone else says' probably isn't all that confident.

Exactly!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 08:38:56 PM
Someone who is truly confident deep down takes on board other people's comments and criticisms and tries to improve from it, because they're not threatened by it.

Somehow who says 'criticism doesn't affect me' or 'I don't listen to what anyone else says' probably isn't all that confident.

what I like about this post BD is you've liked LXXX's post then contradicted him in yours.....

I don't think I've ever read where he says criticism doesn't effect me or I don't listen to what anyone else says...Ö...but that could just be me.....

in the article posted on here he states: ĒIt was disgusting and I hold my hands up for that.
ďI reset and I never let anything affect me.Ē

sounds pretty confident and the correct way forward to me.....or would you want him to hide and go into his shell...let his confidence drop and then actually fade out of the first team and the England team ? like others have before him....?
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on February 10, 2020, 08:53:20 PM
He's boss and you all know it

He's a goalkeeper, they are supposed to be mental, and their mistakes are always highlighted.

Except his underlying statistics over the last three years make for pretty abysmal reading (he's in the bottom 30% in most metrics), very strongly suggesting that he is making more mistakes (and/or fewer top saves) than other keepers in the league. 
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: howard1334 on February 10, 2020, 08:55:09 PM
what I like about this post BD is you've liked LXXX's post then contradicted him in yours.....

I don't think I've ever read where he says criticism doesn't effect me or I don't listen to what anyone else says...Ö...but that could just be me.....

in the article posted on here he states: ĒIt was disgusting and I hold my hands up for that.
ďI reset and I never let anything affect me.Ē

sounds pretty confident and the correct way forward to me.....or would you want him to hide and go into his shell...let his confidence drop and then actually fade out of the first team and the England team ? like others have before him....?

They are in agreement.  They don't think Pickford is actually all that confident.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 10, 2020, 09:05:21 PM
True, but isn't Pickford bottom of the gk league table this year for a lot of things?

Yes. Not the literal bottom, but towards it. Save% is the standout, he's about 19th.

Delph has made more errors leading to goals but has only played about 4 times, slight exaggeration on the amount of games he has played

He (Delph) hasn't, actually, if you trust the EPL's own stats. Pickford has made 2, Delph 1. They don't explain how they're calculated.

Yes. I'm not saying Pickford has had a good season, just that goalkeeping errors are not a good way to judge a keeper. They all make them. Dubravka has made more errors than Pickford yet the Geordies idolise him. If Pickford had been having a great season, pulling off great saves commanding his area, we would probably be laughing off his mistake.

Since you used him as an example, Dubravka's faced 139 shots though (with only 36 goals conceded; 2 fewer than JP). That's a 74% save rate, compared to Jordan's 63% (37 goals on 100 shots; non-pen). Yes he has 3 errors, but you can see the math. Dubravka has 7 clean sheets; JP has 6. There's no comparison between them this season.

and yet every professional goalkeeper, the majority of professional coaches, the England manager and all his team mates both internationals and local..... do rate him....

but you know best eh ?

Literally, how can you even make such a claim? Did you interview them all? That must've taken a long time.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on February 10, 2020, 09:15:22 PM
I don't think I've ever read where he says criticism doesn't effect me

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51437033
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: pjk on February 10, 2020, 09:20:27 PM
I like Pickford as one of the lads. In my view, he lacks certain types of discipline. Notably, from what I've seen when losing concentration, which is usually borne from inaction during a less defensive game. It needs to be sorted out as it's damaging his progress as a top keeper. Yeah! I see the arrogance in him, if arrogance belongs anywhere? It's in high level competition. Keepers thrive on arrogance. He's a bit of a little shit IMO, and that's what makes him the competitor that he is. If the Goodison crowd get on his back, he may as well leave at the end of the season. I'm not sure he's going to get to the levels the fans expect. He's a pretty good keeper for 30 mill, though.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on February 10, 2020, 09:24:31 PM
That's the title of the article, but in all of his quotes they have included in the article, he doesn't actually say that, nor does he even infer that.

"It's funny because everyone raves about you when you are with England but then you get back to your club and everyone wants to slate you.
"As a person, I don't let it affect me."

He's basically said that he's not affected by people slagging him off
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 10, 2020, 09:27:18 PM
Except his underlying statistics over the last three years make for pretty abysmal reading (he's in the bottom 30% in most metrics), very strongly suggesting that he is making more mistakes (and/or fewer top saves) than other keepers in the league. 

There's so many issues with taking the metrics in isolation though:

1) a team who play defensive create much harder chances for the opposition to score - hence why Dubravka's stats being impressive, despite playing in an inferior team.  Newcastle park the bus almost in every match which makes his saves generally easier.  Despite this I've seen at least 3 big mistakes he's made directly leading to goals against.

2) a team playing well concedes less easy chances.  Take Henderson at Sheff Utd, he's playing in a team high on confidence, playing above their expected level and are super tight at the back... despite this he's been at fault for a massive howler against Liverpool.

3) teams at the bottom of the league tend to face more shots, this seems to inflate keeper's statistics, which often leads to keepers at the wrong end of the table on paper alone looking pretty epic, when in fact their game may well have many flaws that would be exposed at a higher level.

I've said it before our main issue isn't Pickford not keeping the ball out, it's the defence and team in general conceding chances with a high probability of a goal.  Against Watford we conceded two, which people then say Pickford's conceded his last x number of shots, when in reality he couldn't do anything about either, the issue was defensively and allowing high probability of goal scoring against.

*Not counting Benteke's goal in this, that was an awful mistake.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 10, 2020, 09:30:38 PM
My point isn't Pickford doesn't make mistakes, it's that every keeper does.
I agree but a good/great keeper learns from his mistakes I donít think Pickford has learned anything he continues to make the same mistakes I think down to concentration problems
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 09:35:38 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51437033

thanks for that... I never read the full article but he does say similar in the article posted on here which I acknowledged...

the main point being that he acknowledges his mistake then moves on...

and for yankeeblue...I didn't need to interview everyone you only have to read/listen their comments in the media and if your "fortunate enough"...... actually speak to them and listen to them sing his praises.....

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 10, 2020, 09:42:50 PM
I agree but a good/great keeper learns from his mistakes I donít think Pickford has learned anything he continues to make the same mistakes I think down to concentration problems

Does he though? In terms of clear cut mistakes that lead to goals I can only think of Liverpool last year (a high ball he fucked up), and Benteke (low shot going through him).  Which are both drastically different goals.

I've seen all sorts of other random claims about supposed mistakes that have lead to a goal but I don't agree with most of them, and they certainly weren't clear mistakes ala Henderson Vs Liverpool / Guata carrying a cross over his line / Pickford last weekend
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 10, 2020, 09:45:31 PM
That's the title of the article, but in all of his quotes they have included in the article, he doesn't actually say that, nor does he even infer that.

"It's funny because everyone raves about you when you are with England but then you get back to your club and everyone wants to slate you.
"As a person, I don't let it affect me."

He's basically said that he's not affected by people slagging him off

was gonna say the same but just couldn't be arsed.....TBH
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: boothill on February 10, 2020, 09:49:24 PM
I remember the press constantly pushing for shilton,  when clemence was by far the better keeper.  They still have a lot of clout the media

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Rodenplav64 on February 10, 2020, 10:05:36 PM
He has the makings of Joe Hart or David James . Too many repeat errors as someone said all keepers make mistakes but he does the same thing over and over . Poor at commanding his box , pushes out into the danger zone . However , he is brilliant at sticking an arm out and it flying over the bar off his other shoulder. Oh and his shouting is good .
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 10, 2020, 11:34:58 PM
Does he though? In terms of clear cut mistakes that lead to goals I can only think of Liverpool last year (a high ball he fucked up), and Benteke (low shot going through him).  Which are both drastically different goals.

I've seen all sorts of other random claims about supposed mistakes that have lead to a goal but I don't agree with most of them, and they certainly weren't clear mistakes ala Henderson Vs Liverpool / Guata carrying a cross over his line / Pickford last weekend
Newcastle last season and this he reacts to the Newcastle fans chanting at him thatís totally unprofessional h
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 10, 2020, 11:37:06 PM
Also his distribution has fallen off a cliff in the last ten games he has booted the ball back to their goalkeeper or over the sideline  several times he needs to cop on and keep his head in the game
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 10, 2020, 11:39:01 PM
Newcastle last season and this he reacts to the Newcastle fans chanting at him thatís totally unprofessional h
Newcastle last season and this he reacts to the Newcastle fans chanting at him thatís totally unprofessional h

'makes the same mistakes over and over again'

Lists two completely different types of mistake 🤣🤣🤣

If you want to compare apples to apples, his performance last season against Newcastle was bad, he let the occasion get to him.  This season he didn't.

So actually doesn't make the same mistakes over and over again, in fact in this case it's the total opposite
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 10, 2020, 11:42:40 PM
Also his distribution has fallen off a cliff in the last ten games he has booted the ball back to their goalkeeper or over the sideline  several times he needs to cop on and keep his head in the game

Short passing with time he's always reliable... A few times a game he attempts something quick and long to turn the opposition round.  Usually this doesn't work but it's worth trying, he had one that stuck against CP, but in general you're expecting to lose possession because it's a high risk pass.

With the latter he sometimes sees a long pass but I feel he's slightly rash with his delivery, he needs to do it super quick but it's like his brain rushes it, and he just needs to slow down half a breath before the connection
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Dr. Sponge on February 10, 2020, 11:43:08 PM
'makes the same mistakes over and over again'

Lists two completely different types of mistake

If you want to compare apples to apples, his performance last season against Newcastle was bad, he let the occasion get to him.  This season he didn't.

So actually doesn't make the same mistakes over and over again, in fact in this case it's the total opposite
Come on Ajax Andy fella, you seem a decent enough bloke but fuck me ya wont rest until you force us to love Pickford. He's just not that good, not this season anyway.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 10, 2020, 11:46:02 PM
Come on Ajax Andy fella, you seem a decent enough bloke but fuck me ya wont rest until you force us to love Pickford. He's just not that good, not this season anyway.

I'm just saying people's opinions are silly half the time, happy to listen to actual real insight but saying he keeps making the same mistakes, then listing two completely different mistakes 12 months apart is frigging ludicrous.

I think he's performed ok, maybe 6.75 / 10 this season so far from believing he's been on top form, but some of what people post is just laughable
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 11, 2020, 12:34:54 AM


'makes the same mistakes over and over again'

Lists two completely different types of mistake

If you want to compare apples to apples, his performance last season against Newcastle was bad, he let the occasion get to him.  This season he didn't.

So actually doesn't make the same mistakes over and over again, in fact in this case it's the total opposite

Wait there, Newcastle scored 2 goals inside the last minute from within our 6 yard box and he was nowhere near the ball, except when he saved it 3 yards behind his goal line. He may not of let the occasion get to him, but it wasn't a sublime performance either, albeit he was joined by a few at the end

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 11, 2020, 02:07:24 AM

Wait there, Newcastle scored 2 goals inside the last minute from within our 6 yard box and he was nowhere near the ball, except when he saved it 3 yards behind his goal line. He may not of let the occasion get to him, but it wasn't a sublime performance either, albeit he was joined by a few at the end

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Jesus not this bollocks again 🤣🤣🤣

Yeah sure a keeper should totally save pinball goal mouth scrambles in his 6 yard box, maybe he could cure diabetes and ebola while he's at it 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Heisenberg on February 11, 2020, 02:24:32 AM
Pickford has so many flaws which a goalkeeper shouldnt. It was always forgiven for his good shot stopping ability. He seems to have lost that now which has left us with a very average keeper. If he doesnt buck his ideas up it wouldnt surprise me if we was looking for a new keeper by next jan window
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Waltzer on February 11, 2020, 02:34:24 AM
Jesus not this bollocks again

Yeah sure a keeper should totally save pinball goal mouth scrambles in his 6 yard box, maybe he could cure diabetes and ebola while he's at it
That wasn't really the point I was trying to make tbh, it was more just highlighting the point that 2 goals were scored within the 6 yard box, that's roughly 6 yards away from him, one of which was pumped from the halfway line yet he's nowhere near either. Yes it was pinball, but did it need to get to the pinball stage or would another more dominant keeper have dealt with the ball in better? I think yes and it's a regular occurrence, you think no, that's it and that's fine

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Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Macca77 on February 11, 2020, 02:42:26 PM
See Chris Sutton has had a pop as well now, Chris fucking Sutton, will be Danny Mills tomorrow
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on February 11, 2020, 02:48:00 PM
See Chris Sutton has had a pop as well now, Chris fucking Sutton, will be Danny Mills tomorrow

Reckon heís done as Englandís number one for a while unless he pulls off a dozen or so world class saves before the end of the season.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51452859

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Simon Paul on February 11, 2020, 03:14:36 PM
Pickford - like Howard before him, and every keeper at Everton ever - needs a better backup keeper to push him

Every top team has a good backup keeper now. Even United do.

Everton have never bothered though.

Richard Wright has Iain Turner as his backup. Iain "I've dropped my contact lens" Turner.

Howard had Carlo Nash for a bit, and that fella who got lobbed when he was stood on his line by Oldham

Everton goalkeeper know a run of poor form won't cost them their place
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 11, 2020, 03:14:54 PM
Reckon heís done as Englandís number one for a while unless he pulls off a dozen or so world class saves before the end of the season.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51452859



Chris Sutton is a moron and knows nothing.  Pope hasn't even been better.

Have a nice piece of shut the fuck up Sutton you absolute bell end
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: kerryblue boy on February 11, 2020, 03:24:41 PM
Pickford - like Howard before him, and every keeper at Everton ever - needs a better backup keeper to push him

Every top team has a good backup keeper now. Even United do.

Everton have never bothered though.

Richard Wright has Iain Turner as his backup. Iain "I've dropped my contact lens" Turner.

Howard had Carlo Nash for a bit, and that fella who got lobbed when he was stood on his line by Oldham

Everton goalkeeper know a run of poor form won't cost them their place
Was that not why we got lossl he had played for Denmark big guy was ok for Huddersfield but never got a look in not saying he should have been starting but surely on the bench
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Alanvideo on February 11, 2020, 04:00:24 PM
Was that not why we got lossl he had played for Denmark big guy was ok for Huddersfield but never got a look in not saying he should have been starting but surely on the bench
..................Lossi is back on loan at Huddersfield and played the other day ,which in some ways is better than sitting our bench . As I said a few pages ago Stek is gone in summer and we need a PL standard back up to challenge Pickford .Whether that will be Lossi I don't know.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: WeimaranerBlues on February 11, 2020, 04:56:32 PM
Was just going to post the Sutton link, but already posted,. The writing is in the wall for Pickford, probably be discussed all over sky this week and them fuckers on sat/ sun,.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 11, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Was just going to post the Sutton link, but already posted,. The writing is in the wall for Pickford, probably be discussed all over sky this week and them fuckers on sat/ sun,.



Chris Sutton is about as relevant as he is boring, which is saying something 🤣

I watched Class of 92 on Amazon Prime the other day and it was interesting to hear Phil Neville talk about the abuse England players receive and how the media are basically the route cause of it all... Quite sickening really, would hate to be an England player!
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: WeimaranerBlues on February 11, 2020, 05:10:44 PM
Yeah the same chi's Sutton who refused to play in a B team match
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: formerKHL on February 11, 2020, 05:17:31 PM
I cant wait for pickford to get a move and then we get some friggin nomark keeper....

cant wait for the comments and moaning on here...Ö.I already feel sorry for the lad.... whoever it will be......
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on February 11, 2020, 06:02:39 PM
I cant wait for pickford to get a move and then we get some friggin nomark keeper....

cant wait for the comments and moaning on here...Ö.I already feel sorry for the lad.... whoever it will be......

Heís been rubbish this season and all the numbers back it up. Itís been a continuation from last season tbh.

Deserves all the criticism thrown his way at the moment. Up to him to deal with it, but up to us as a club to start getting behind him as well.

That doesnít mean we canít point out various aspects that worry us about his performances though.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on February 11, 2020, 06:16:10 PM
He strikes me as someone who's not the brightest

I'm seeing a lot of this, and quite frankly it's pretty fucking disgusting.

Who the fuck are you or anyone to question the lad's intelligence. To question anyone who's just doing their job, and living their life in the public domain.

There's so much snobbery going on it's ridiculous.

I won't go into the thousands of reasons why someone in the lad's position might not have the "intelligence" that others are blessed with, it should be obvious (right?).

Attck his form and his talent as much as you want, no need to be a cunt.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on February 11, 2020, 06:20:22 PM
Someone who is truly confident deep down takes on board other people's comments and criticisms and tries to improve from it, because they're not threatened by it.

Somehow who says 'criticism doesn't affect me' or 'I don't listen to what anyone else says' probably isn't all that confident.

Pompus, self-righteous bullshit.

People act and react differently.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on February 11, 2020, 06:25:54 PM
Also his distribution has fallen off a cliff in the last ten games he has booted the ball back to their goalkeeper or over the sideline  several times he needs to cop on and keep his head in the game

So he didn't land it on a sixpence for Richarlison against Palace? His distribution is excellent.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Shogun on February 11, 2020, 06:30:19 PM
He'll definitely be England Number 1 for the summer. Hart was abysmal and Southgate stood by him as long as he could whilst Henderson and Pope haven't played much for England. Let's not forget Pickford has been flawless for England as well.

After that he'll be in trouble but that won't stop the media columns for the next few months.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on February 11, 2020, 06:33:10 PM
Third most clean sheets in the league last season, and mid table this. He's going through a sticky patch no doubt, but there's a lot of reactionary crap going on.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on February 11, 2020, 06:36:47 PM
So he didn't land it on a sixpence for Richarlison against Palace? His distribution is excellent.
Agreed. According to the Chris Sutton article, he has the best passing accuracy out of all the English keepers. This is despite the fact that a high percentage of his passes are long balls. There's nothing wrong with his distribution.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on February 11, 2020, 06:38:27 PM
Third most clean sheets in the league last season, and mid table this. He's going through a sticky patch no doubt, but there's a lot of reactionary crap going on.

Conversely, he has been consistently near the bottom of the league when it comes to the percentage of the shots he saves.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on February 11, 2020, 06:44:34 PM
Seems to me that the keeper position is most open to criticism, because the average fan feels confident making judgments on what their eyes tell them (a lot more "hidden" stats for holding midfielders, etc.).  And they're very high-profile, and often a bit mental.

By the way, the "I don't let criticism get to me" is basically what every successful athlete thinks.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 11, 2020, 06:47:08 PM
Pickford - like Howard before him, and every keeper at Everton ever - needs a better backup keeper to push him

Every top team has a good backup keeper now. Even United do.

Everton have never bothered though.

Richard Wright has Iain Turner as his backup. Iain "I've dropped my contact lens" Turner.

Howard had Carlo Nash for a bit, and that fella who got lobbed when he was stood on his line by Oldham

Everton goalkeeper know a run of poor form won't cost them their place

That's a great point. Allison, Ederson & Lloris have all missed considerable time and Liverpool, City & Spurs didn't skip a beat.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 11, 2020, 06:53:43 PM
Conversely, he has been consistently near the bottom of the league when it comes to the percentage of the shots he saves.

Rate Pickford or not, you have to consider that his save % has declined every year since 16/17, and his shots faced have gone down every campaign as well.

As our resident Pickford superfan (hi Andy!) would point out, he is still young by keeper standards and can certainly reverse this downward trajectory - honestly hope he does - but this worrying trend is a fact.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Hesmenos on February 11, 2020, 06:54:06 PM
He'll definitely be England Number 1 for the summer. Hart was abysmal and Southgate stood by him as long as he could whilst Henderson and Pope haven't played much for England. Let's not forget Pickford has been flawless for England as well.

After that he'll be in trouble but that won't stop the media columns for the next few months.
I believe this too. Southgate knows first hand about the pressures of playing for England and he's seen that Pickford has never been fazed when playing for his country. Goalkeepers are a tricky position as well. Once you find one that you're happy with, you don't change them unless they become spectacularly shit. Plenty of examples, Hart, Seaman, Shilton for England and more recently Kepa at Chelsea. He's not going to change the keeper that took him to the semi-finals of the World Cup for a kid who fell apart for the U21s at the Euros this summer. It also helps that Pickford has a good penalty shoot out record. After that its open.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on February 11, 2020, 06:57:16 PM
He had that very busy, intense summer for England.  It's not surprising in the least that he's off form since, especially how he plays every minute of every match.

We might as well ride this roller coaster, as it would be criminally stupid to "sell low" on him.  And that's what we'd be doing now.

Of course, a better #2 would help matters.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: YankeeBlue214 on February 11, 2020, 06:57:56 PM
He had that very busy, intense summer for England.  It's not surprising in the least that he's off form since, especially how he plays every minute of every match.

We might as well ride this roller coaster, as it would be criminally stupid to "sell low" on him.  And that's what we'd be doing now.

Of course, a better #2 would help matters.

He's not going to be any less busy this summer.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Lxxx on February 11, 2020, 06:58:12 PM
I'm seeing a lot of this, and quite frankly it's pretty fucking disgusting.

Who the fuck are you or anyone to question the lad's intelligence. To question anyone who's just doing their job, and living their life in the public domain.

There's so much snobbery going on it's ridiculous.

I won't go into the thousands of reasons why someone in the lad's position might not have the "intelligence" that others are blessed with, it should be obvious (right?).

Attck his form and his talent as much as you want, no need to be a cunt.

You've gone off the deep end there pal so I'll respond once so as not to blow this up.

I, or anyone else for that matter, have got as much right to give my opinion on Pickford's intelligence as I have on Ross Barkley's, another who has had it widely said about him for example, or even yours.

I've given my reasoning behind it and you have every right to disagree with it. The moral outrage is over the top like and you're acting like a dick about it but if you feel that strongly it's your choice.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Bluedylan on February 11, 2020, 07:00:25 PM
Pompus, self-righteous bullshit.

People act and react differently.

You alright, fella?

Don't think it's that harsh saying that in my opinion, he's not as confident as the image he is trying to project.

You seem a bit upset generally.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on February 11, 2020, 07:10:10 PM
He's not going to be any less busy this summer.

True, but it won't be a first time experience, at least.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Escla on February 11, 2020, 07:10:18 PM
You've gone off the deep end there pal so I'll respond once so as not to blow this up.

I, or anyone else for that matter, have got as much right to give my opinion on Pickford's intelligence as I have on Ross Barkley's, another who has had it widely said about him for example, or even yours.

I've given my reasoning behind it and you have every right to disagree with it. The moral outrage is over the top like and you're acting like a dick about it but if you feel that strongly it's your choice.

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Re: Pickford
QuoteLike
Quote from: Thornton_19 on March 11, 2019, 03:49:14 AM
I in no way think he is a bad goalkeeper, i just think he is a bit of an idiot. Sometimes we see it leak onto the pitch.

I agree with this.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 11, 2020, 07:20:33 PM
So he didn't land it on a sixpence for Richarlison against Palace? His distribution is excellent.

Nothing shows that people base their opinion on Pickford without ever watching other keepers then the poor distribution line.

People watch a bit of MOTD and reckon they know x or y keeper is better, then spout absolute garbage on here like it's fact.

Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: ajax_andy on February 11, 2020, 07:27:33 PM
Rate Pickford or not, you have to consider that his save % has declined every year since 16/17, and his shots faced have gone down every campaign as well.

As our resident Pickford superfan (hi Andy!) would point out, he is still young by keeper standards and can certainly reverse this downward trajectory - honestly hope he does - but this worrying trend is a fact.

I've mentioned before though the % saved stat can be super misleading, which is why Dubravka rates super high for it.  If you concede easy chances the result will be more goals against / less shots saved.  On the flip side park the bus in every single game ala Newcastle and you'll save a hell of a lot of half chances making your stats look boss.

I don't think Pickford had been any worse or better than last year, but I do feel fans are looking more and more to pin shit on him regardless of if the goal was his fault or someone else's.  There's also now a tendancy to not praise him for anything good he does - case in point would be the Benteke save which I've seen people say was a routine save / was straight at him... Those same people probably thought Henderson's save against Bournemouth was superb when they saw it on MOTD2.  however if that'd been Pickford it'd be another 'straight at him' opinion.

He needs to improve, but as you said he's still young for a keeper... Having him, DCL, Holgate and Richarlison all playing in a settled team next season, under a great manager with new players around them... You don't disrupt that, you grow it in to something amazing
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on February 11, 2020, 07:32:01 PM
I've mentioned before though the % saved stat can be super misleading, which is why Dubravka rates super high for it.  If you concede easy chances the result will be more goals against / less shots saved.  On the flip side park the bus in every single game ala Newcastle and you'll save a hell of a lot of half chances making your stats look boss.

I don't think Pickford had been any worse or better than last year, but I do feel fans are looking more and more to pin shit on him regardless of if the goal was his fault or someone else's.  There's also now a tendancy to not praise him for anything good he does - case in point would be the Benteke save which I've seen people say was a routine save / was straight at him... Those same people probably thought Henderson's save against Bournemouth was superb when they saw it on MOTD2.  however if that'd been Pickford it'd be another 'straight at him' opinion.

He needs to improve, but as you said he's still young for a keeper... Having him, DCL, Holgate and Richarlison all playing in a settled team next season, under a great manager with new players around them... You don't disrupt that, you grow it in to something amazing

Agree that the defense is just now getting settled.  Give Pickford some time to round back into form.  Next season will likely be a turning point, for good or for ill.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on February 11, 2020, 07:34:17 PM
Conversely, he has been consistently near the bottom of the league when it comes to the percentage of the shots he saves.

Whilst I readily admit his form has been way off, shot save percentage has many variables, with one of the biggest being the quality of shot allowed by defenders. I don't think it's the most accurate of metrics.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: TheRam on February 11, 2020, 07:35:55 PM
Whilst I readily admit his form has been way off, shot save percentage has many variables, with one of the biggest being the quality of shot allowed by defenders. I don't think it's the most accurate of metrics.

Heís been near the bottom of it since he made he debut in the league though.

It holds a lot of weight.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on February 11, 2020, 07:38:07 PM
You've gone off the deep end there pal so I'll respond once so as not to blow this up.

I, or anyone else for that matter, have got as much right to give my opinion on Pickford's intelligence as I have on Ross Barkley's, another who has had it widely said about him for example, or even yours.

I've given my reasoning behind it and you have every right to disagree with it. The moral outrage is over the top like and you're acting like a dick about it but if you feel that strongly it's your choice.

I do feel strongly about it, because it's self righteous and pompous... the rant isn't so much directed at you but rather the self important, "better than you" attitude that seemingly has to come into the equation when discussing a player's talent or form.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Jamokachi on February 11, 2020, 07:42:17 PM
You alright, fella?

Don't think it's that harsh saying that in my opinion, he's not as confident as the image he is trying to project.

You seem a bit upset generally.

Not upset, bit peeved. I had you in pretty high esteem amongst the posters here, so it's a bit of a shame when I read comments like you made. You more than most know that you can't tar everyone with the same brush, like you did.

Again, it comes down to this conversion descending to the personal, rather than a discussion of form or talent.

I don't see a reason or place for it.
Title: Re: Pickford
Post by: Evertonian in NC on February 11, 2020, 07:43:47 PM
I think advanced metrics are least meaningful (NOTE - I didn't say "not at all") with respect to keepers.  There's just not enough data points, certainly not enough to filter out the other variables impacting goals against, etc.

What I don't get is that there were more people HERE defending Joe Fucking Hart when he had clearly gone off the rails - than Jordan Pickford, while our player and in a rough patch of form.

I recall getting savaged for saying I wouldn't take Hart on a free, let alone the 20-30m