October 14, 2019, 09:05:43 PM

Author Topic: The culture of English football  (Read 12345 times)

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March 05, 2010, 02:27:35 AM
Reply #45
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Major Clanger

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he has Gibbs, Wilshere, Lansbury, Bartley, Emanuel Thomas etc who are all on the verge of breaking through

We've seen plenty on the verge. Even Gus Caesar made it to the verge.

Has anyone actually broken through?
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March 05, 2010, 02:29:02 AM
Reply #46
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Amata


No, we haven't missed it at all. Wenger has been at Arsenal since 1996. The players who started with the under-10s at that time are 23-24 now. Where are all the brilliant 18-22 year old Wenger kids? Errrm, nowhere, I'm afraid. Destroying everyone at youth level is great, unfortunately football is about first team players and hardly any English players have come through Wenger's brilliant setup. If any, because however I rack my brain, I can't think of a single one.

So he took over in summer 1996 and changed the youth set up including coaching staff etc, scouted a load of players and everything else in 1 or 2 months???  Your looking at a whole change in the setup, letting current players go, bringing in better ones, changing training methods - it all takes time.  If he had it up and running his way from about 1998-1999 (assuming players are 5-6 when taken on) then the players would now be around 17/18 which are the ones im talking about.  The likes of Wilshire, Bartley, Eastmond, Cruise, Lansbury, Frimpong, Randall, Watt have already been involved with the first team and that will be the start of many.
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March 05, 2010, 02:37:32 AM
Reply #47
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Risky

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The sad truth is, Wenger simply can't handle the English mindset. Not because he's a bad manager, because he's undoubtedly a world class manager. Not because the English mindset is bad, because it's amazingly effective. They just don't click, it's as simple as that.

And this is a warning sign for everyone who wants to radically change the way kids are coached, to mimic some other country's methods. If you tell a bunch of English kids to just play the way they like, it'd probably end in a brawl, or rugby if they're upper-class.

We tried the same shit in Hungary, we've long abandoned our traditional mentality that was based on vision and positional awareness and every five years or so, someone comes up with a brilliant idea about who to copy. Once it's the Dutch, then it's the Italians and so on. And it never works out, because that's not the way we think.

I've played with or against absolutely amateur footballers from Hungary, Spain, France, Ukraine, Australia and England and the way they approached the game was completely differently, and it has clearly nothing to do with coaching.

Of course, coaching methods have to evolve, but changing the philosophy leads to disaster.



When I spoke about youth coaching earlier, I wasn't advocating a total overhaul of the philosophy of it but rather the implementation of some different methods which in my opinion would aid the development of young players in this country.

Specifically the early age at which kids here are introduced to full sized 11 a side pitches, and the idea that winning an Under 12s tournament is much more important than focusing on developing the skills of young players.

I agree that it's not always a case of the grass being greener, and I also agree that trying to adapt your methods to match those of someone else who you perceive as succesfull is not the correct way to go about things.  There is still a lot that could be learned though, and in fairness from what I have seen and heard things are beginning to change for the better (at least where I am).


March 05, 2010, 02:52:47 AM
Reply #48
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So he took over in summer 1996 and changed the youth set up including coaching staff etc, scouted a load of players and everything else in 1 or 2 months???  Your looking at a whole change in the setup, letting current players go, bringing in better ones, changing training methods - it all takes time.  If he had it up and running his way from about 1998-1999 (assuming players are 5-6 when taken on) then the players would now be around 17/18 which are the ones im talking about.  The likes of Wilshire, Bartley, Eastmond, Cruise, Lansbury, Frimpong, Randall, Watt have already been involved with the first team and that will be the start of many.

Players aren't 5 or 6 when they are taken on, they're about 9-10. (Or even more.) Therefore, they should be 23 years old at least, but I made allowances for him not starting scouting straight away (Why not? He arrived with a full network behind him.), and asked you to give me the names of 18-22 year olds who have broken through.

Bentley, Sidwell, Pennant, the Hoyte brothers had all "been involved" with the first team and look where they are now. I'm not asking for a Rooney or a Rodwell here, but at least someone like Adam Johnson, Joe Cole or James Milner. Where is Wenger hiding them?
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March 05, 2010, 02:56:58 AM
Reply #49
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When I spoke about youth coaching earlier, I wasn't advocating a total overhaul of the philosophy of it but rather the implementation of some different methods which in my opinion would aid the development of young players in this country.

Specifically the early age at which kids here are introduced to full sized 11 a side pitches, and the idea that winning an Under 12s tournament is much more important than focusing on developing the skills of young players.

I agree that it's not always a case of the grass being greener, and I also agree that trying to adapt your methods to match those of someone else who you perceive as succesfull is not the correct way to go about things.  There is still a lot that could be learned though, and in fairness from what I have seen and heard things are beginning to change for the better (at least where I am).

Yes, most of the things you listed are methodical mistakes in any culture. Winning tournaments should only become a priority at under-17 level. But I think these will change as the demand for players and investment in development increases. After all, not every club can afford a team made up of foreign players only.
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March 08, 2010, 08:29:21 PM
Reply #50
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.Rimbo.


The fans wont allow it. Look at the majority of ours on here, especially the 'IMWT' brigade. To most of them, all that matters is the winning, the league table etc.

Or they have those ridiculous notion, that unless you have shit loads of money.... playing attractive, continental football is simply not an option.

English football is absolutely dire to watch, if i want to watch men 'going in hard' or 'roughing people up' i watch Rugby Union. If i want to appreciate the art of passing teh ball.. finding space.... controlling tempo's of a game...

i watch foreign football

Fuck me...too true! Seriously, don't ever sit through an Arsenal match mate. The level of football is truly shocking.


March 08, 2010, 08:41:43 PM
Reply #51
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.Rimbo.


So Wenger didnt bring him into the 1st team? or develop his career?

David Bentley, Sidwell, Upson, Pennant, Wright, Jeffers, Lansbury, Randall, Walcott, Bartley, Gilbert, J Hoyte, G Hoyte, Watt, Simpson, Cruise, Eastmond, Wilshere, Emanuel Thomas, Frimpong, Sunu

all examples of young english players who wenger has helped develop their careers.

We'll delete the shite and unprovens accordingly. As for Wenger being the coach to help English football the most over the last 10 years, that's utter shite. The Jeffers one deserves a special bold font because it was Everton who brought him on and his career went off the rails when he went to Arsenal.

How about someone like Harry Redknapp, who helped develop the careers of players like Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Frank Lampard, Michael Carrick, Jermaine Defoe, Peter Crouch...all players that are currently in and around the England squad as we speak, not shitty no-marks like Steve Sidwell lolol
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 08:43:29 PM by .Rimbo. »

March 08, 2010, 10:23:55 PM
Reply #52
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Major Clanger

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We'll delete the shite and unprovens accordingly. As for Wenger being the coach to help English football the most over the last 10 years, that's utter shite. The Jeffers one deserves a special bold font because it was Everton who brought him on and his career went off the rails when he went to Arsenal.

Just for fun, try deleting those who had made a senior first-team appearance in the league before signing for Arsenal and those that don't play for Arsenal anymore. :)
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March 08, 2010, 11:13:47 PM
Reply #53
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huck


Here is Arsenes' take on it. He seems to feel the commitment shown in the English game makes it more attractive. I included most of his quotes so as it couldn't be accused of misrepresentation. I agree with him and it is one of the main reasons I much prefer the English/British game. It gives us much more variety within the league. We have seen how Man City struggled against Stoke and the like, that I believe is because Mancini had never played against tactics such as that and struggled to find a way to beat them. I don't particularly like that style of play. But I'd much rather watch a team attempting even with its technical difficulties to break down play and make it hard for the other team.

“I can understand people want to be committed against us, and I have no problem with that.

“I love the commitment of the English game. I don't want to change that and it makes the game even more attractive, but high commitment demands fair intention as well.”

Wenger added: “I admire a great technical tackle as much as a creative pass.

“A tackle is an art in itself - that means you always have your eye on the ball, never with a high foot, in your tackle you can already make a pass.

“To close your eyes and go in too physical, that does not mean it is intention, but there is danger.

“Tackling is an art you do not want to get out of the game.

“We have some good tacklers in this league, some who are not good - but that does not mean you go into it trying to break a leg.

“It is not Arsenal against the rest of the world. What I say here is valid for the Arsenal players as well.

“What I say it not just for Stoke or Arsenal players, it is for everybody. I defend football.”



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premiership/wenger-stands-by-his-criticism-of-shawcross-tackle-14710065.html?#ixzz0hbcQhIIa
Le Berry

March 08, 2010, 11:59:30 PM
Reply #54
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Too bad he failed to spot Fabregas' two-footed lunge on a Stoke defender. The famous Wenger-vision.

As good a manager he is, so big a tit he makes of himself every time he opens his mouth to preach.
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March 09, 2010, 12:02:30 AM
Reply #55
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huck


Too bad he failed to spot Fabregas' two-footed lunge on a Stoke defender. The famous Wenger-vision.

As good a manager he is, so big a tit he makes of himself every time he opens his mouth to preach.

That's my opinion of him to.
Le Berry

November 30, 2012, 04:11:44 AM
Reply #56
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ilikebrunettes


thought'd id bump this thread and see if peoples opionions still stand 2 years later!

Plenty of shouts about how slow and boring spanish and german football is etc.

Still think the same? in the last 2 years when english sides have played teams from those countries the most notable thing for me is the pace and speed those teams play at compared to england.
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November 30, 2012, 04:18:59 AM
Reply #57
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Major Clanger

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thought'd id bump this thread and see if peoples opionions still stand 2 years later!

Plenty of shouts about how slow and boring spanish and german football is etc.

Still think the same? in the last 2 years when english sides have played teams from those countries the most notable thing for me is the pace and speed those teams play at compared to england.

In cup games, yes. Cup games mean fuck all.

German football has certainly improved over the past few years, it was always entertaining, now they also have quality. Spanish football however is on the decline, completely ruined by their unsustainable financial model and off course the two "giants".
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November 30, 2012, 04:25:35 AM
Reply #58
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ilikebrunettes


In cup games, yes. Cup games mean fuck all.

German football has certainly improved over the past few years, it was always entertaining, now they also have quality. Spanish football however is on the decline, completely ruined by their unsustainable financial model and off course the two "giants".

how can you make that staement when Atletico are the reigning EL champions and their 4 CL group sides have qualified?
Murray won't ever win a slam. Mentally not good enough

November 30, 2012, 05:16:43 AM
Reply #59
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Major Clanger

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how can you make that staement when Atletico are the reigning EL champions and their 4 CL group sides have qualified?

I watch Spanish league games, that's how. They're utter dirge. (I told you before that cup games don't matter.)
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