November 24, 2017, 10:54:00 PM

Author Topic: [News]Bramley Moore Dock update  (Read 154035 times)

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November 07, 2017, 04:40:03 PM
Reply #2415
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MmmBlueRamirez


This ground move is more about Moshiri making money than our club moving forward. Thats what my head says.

My heart says If the owner cared about the club he would seriously look into regenerating our stadium and the area. I'm not even sure they've attempted to do a feasibility study into this, despite if I remember rightly Trevor Skempton displaying it could be possible. Goodison is right by a lot of local amenities and pubs too, is this new stadium going to be like Leicester/Boro/Sunderland in the middle of nowhere?

Instead of investigating staying, we are leaving to go to the city centre, which is already completely gentrified, we are abandoning one of the poorest areas of Liverpool, and hoodwinking our fans into thinking following the attitudes of EvertonBusinessMatters and becoming 'Brand Everton' is the way to be. I think this is being done for personal profit rather than in the best interests of the clubs future. This is just a hunch, but the man is friends with people at Arsenal who had a similar idea (The Emirates) which has hardly worked out well.

I'm probably stuck in the 90s and speaking from the heart with this mindset, but I fucking love Goodison and nobody can take it away from me without me having (passionately) my own say about it. Particularly an outsider who isn't even a fan let alone the majority shareholder. I realise modern football is completely fucked and distant from fans but us leaving Goodison to go and play in town really does take the biscuit. But are our fans seriously just going to give up us playing at Goodison where we have played for over a century, just like that?

I think some fans are being taken for being gullible. But fans can be fickle. Once they realize the price of a ticket at this place and the lack of atmosphere and dip in team performance and connection with the place as fans, I wonder if they will lap up the new stadium then?


Man City are doing well shite arenít they.
Farming Karma like the Dalai Llama

deCoubertin

November 07, 2017, 06:45:04 PM
Reply #2416
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blue1948


Mate, when I can move along the row of seats in the Upper Gwladys without practically tripping over the seat back in the row in front of me, when I can go for a piss without waiting for 15 minutes at half time, when I can have a wider choice of food than fish and chips and cardboard burgers outside the ground I for one will be a happy man, we don't all live around the corner from GP, new location makes perfect sense.
It would take years of reduced capacity and disruption to re-develop GP, you would practically have to demolish 75% of it and re-build. I don't know what your definition of a fan is but in the case of Moshiri once you have skin in the game you soon become as interested in success for the club as any other fan.

We are one of the cheapest season ticket in the Premiership, there are a number of reasons for that, one being that the ground is not living in the 90's like you, it's a 60's stadium. Don't get emotionally involved with bricks and mortar.

A good counter argument but the other has it's points and both views have pluses and minuses .Personally on the architect ,I think we would be pushed to find one better ,he at least seems as though he gets Everton and the fans ,I also think that he is truly excited by the project and I cannot wait to see what comes from all this .It is a chance to put his name up in lights so he will go for it .

November 08, 2017, 01:29:21 AM
Reply #2417
Online

phillyt


This ground move is more about Moshiri making money than our club moving forward. Thats what my head says.

My heart says If the owner cared about the club he would seriously look into regenerating our stadium and the area. I'm not even sure they've attempted to do a feasibility study into this, despite if I remember rightly Trevor Skempton displaying it could be possible. Goodison is right by a lot of local amenities and pubs too, is this new stadium going to be like Leicester/Boro/Sunderland in the middle of nowhere?

Instead of investigating staying, we are leaving to go to the city centre, which is already completely gentrified, we are abandoning one of the poorest areas of Liverpool, and hoodwinking our fans into thinking following the attitudes of EvertonBusinessMatters and becoming 'Brand Everton' is the way to be. I think this is being done for personal profit rather than in the best interests of the clubs future. This is just a hunch, but the man is friends with people at Arsenal who had a similar idea (The Emirates) which has hardly worked out well.

I'm probably stuck in the 90s and speaking from the heart with this mindset, but I fucking love Goodison and nobody can take it away from me without me having (passionately) my own say about it. Particularly an outsider who isn't even a fan let alone the majority shareholder. I realise modern football is completely fucked and distant from fans but us leaving Goodison to go and play in town really does take the biscuit. But are our fans seriously just going to give up us playing at Goodison where we have played for over a century, just like that?

I think some fans are being taken for being gullible. But fans can be fickle. Once they realize the price of a ticket at this place and the lack of atmosphere and dip in team performance and connection with the place as fans, I wonder if they will lap up the new stadium then?


Kenwright supposedly cares about this club. More than anyone in the whole wide world apparently. In all his years as chairman, majority shareholder and board member has he even contemplated any kind of scheme to make a new stadium viable? The answer is, as far as Iím aware, absolutely not. He preferred Kirby or WHP on a freebie.

In fact since moshiri has come in Goodison Park looks far better. It might be only aesthetics but at least he has done something. Iím not sure Kenwright would have or could have delivered the disabled access improvements. Using the excuse of an imminent stadium move.

Of course moshiri is going to make money from it but in my eyes he is already far more deserving of a profit than Kenwright and his cronies ever where.

In terms of how it effects the fans we just have to hope the clubs senior management get the balance right, allow the proper, long term or young fans easy access to reasonably priced tickets and squeeze the tourist johnny come lately fans and corporate hoorays for every fucking penny. Roll on the Bramley moor years I say.
I'm fat, but it's not my fault I have a genetic condition resulting in me retaining burgers.


November 08, 2017, 04:13:19 AM
Reply #2418
Online

arteta4spain


I might be being simple here but if he does stand to make a profit. Might we benefit as he might use some of that for transfers?
I understand he's deserve a cut for delivering a long awaited stadium move but maybe he'll want to reinvest.
Wouldn't blame him if he didn't.

November 08, 2017, 02:02:34 PM
Reply #2419
Offline

74Blue


This ground move is more about Moshiri making money than our club moving forward. Thats what my head says.

My heart says If the owner cared about the club he would seriously look into regenerating our stadium and the area. I'm not even sure they've attempted to do a feasibility study into this, despite if I remember rightly Trevor Skempton displaying it could be possible. Goodison is right by a lot of local amenities and pubs too, is this new stadium going to be like Leicester/Boro/Sunderland in the middle of nowhere?

Instead of investigating staying, we are leaving to go to the city centre, which is already completely gentrified, we are abandoning one of the poorest areas of Liverpool, and hoodwinking our fans into thinking following the attitudes of EvertonBusinessMatters and becoming 'Brand Everton' is the way to be. I think this is being done for personal profit rather than in the best interests of the clubs future. This is just a hunch, but the man is friends with people at Arsenal who had a similar idea (The Emirates) which has hardly worked out well.

I'm probably stuck in the 90s and speaking from the heart with this mindset, but I fucking love Goodison and nobody can take it away from me without me having (passionately) my own say about it. Particularly an outsider who isn't even a fan let alone the majority shareholder. I realise modern football is completely fucked and distant from fans but us leaving Goodison to go and play in town really does take the biscuit. But are our fans seriously just going to give up us playing at Goodison where we have played for over a century, just like that?

I think some fans are being taken for being gullible. But fans can be fickle. Once they realize the price of a ticket at this place and the lack of atmosphere and dip in team performance and connection with the place as fans, I wonder if they will lap up the new stadium then?

I love Goodison Park as much as any Evertonian, and it will be a sad day when we eventually bid the old lady farewell for good. However, she's well past her sell by date now and no longer fit for purpose. She's slowly falling to pieces and there's only so many sticking plasters that you can apply before you have to accept that it's time to move on.
It's one thing drawing up a plan to redevelop on paper. It's a whole different ball game actually delivering a redeveloped Goodison Park. Where would we play whilst the redevelopment took place? How long would it take to buy up sufficient land around the stadium to provide a sufficient footprint for a bigger and better modern Goodison? It took the shite years to get the land that they wanted for their big fuck off loft conversion.
I don't doubt at all that our Majority shareholder is looking to make a profit. Why shouldn't a businessman make a profit on his investment? If He's not looking to make some profit, then why even bother making an investment?
I just want to see Everton back where they belong, competing with the big boys, not settling for mid-table mediocrity. If a nice shiny new stadium, in an area that is ripe for new investment, helps us on our way back to the top, then bring it on.
Premier League football has not been all about the love of the game for years. It's a business!

November 08, 2017, 10:40:32 PM
Reply #2420
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Ridge


I think people often begrudge others making money, even when they invest in the right things, it's a mentality thing. People expected BK to throw away his money and had no gratitude for him not taking dividends out of the club. Just like employment, no one is paying you for your pleasure, they are making money out of your work, or you'll be gone pretty quickly.

With an owner, the logic is fairly simple that investing now, can deliver a higher turnover long term and make a more valuable asset. With a stadium, it might cost £300m-£400m+, but you'll expect to realise the investment over next decade or two in increase in turnover from sponsorship, increased ticket prices, corporate facilities, food, drink etc.

But essentially anyone growing a club, is not doing it for a folly or a whim alone. For the vast majority, the control of a big club, means they can enrich other business interests through a raised profile, like a Trump presidency. Mike Ashley, Sportsdirect, Dave Whelan, JJB, US owners have other Sports teams they can promote.

The main exception to the rule is Chelsea. Abramovich wanted to get away from Russia with his cash, and he needed a high profile position to help secure his safety, and launder the money. The helicopter ride story is not the move of a man thinking about profit, he needed out quickly. He's since struggled to move them out of the stadium, they are somewhat reliant on trading to compete with clubs with a bigger turnover. They have overloaded assets in terms of young players to compete and control best players before they get there. Lukaku transfer was limited by restrictions from FFP not the depth of owners pockets or his willingness.

With Mansour at City, they have never ending pockets, and its a similar situation to PSG with Qatar ownership. In that billions spent are not a major issue, because it's much easier to enrich with a country than a business. The Qatar foundation sponsored Barcelona for years and was paying huge amounts. After a while someone with enough money, will notice others making profit from them in large quantities and take a longer term approach.

The cost of sponsoring top teams is forever increasing and you're not always going to be on the right horse. At some point, it makes sense to realise the value from the sponsorship money yourself, so they look towards club ownership. If you're spending £100m+ a season in sponsorship, why not invest that in a team you own and realise value at both ends of the deal. But it was probably also in part because of Barcelona's lowering profile in recent years.

But Moshiri's investment is in a very small elite group in terms of size and scale. We didn't have the new subsidised, council managed stadium paid for by tax payers, like with City and West Ham. We had assets on the field and it was the value of players like Stones, Barkley, Lukaku that made us look a side going places, but limited by stadium constraints.

With Moshiri in the steel business and having worked with Arsenal project, it's reasonable to expect that he was interested in us because of the demand and need for a new stadium. Even if he decides to slow down investment in the first team as we threw away too much money on players who don't appear to be major assets, while losing our best ones. The stadium is one of the main reasons he got involved, and as long as we are not relegated, turn to anarchy or he risks the threat of legal action, I think it's the main goal and potential earner for Moshiri and associates.

But in terms of level of investment, he's put in more than nearly anyone than City or Chelsea and while his threshold for withdrawal is lower than Abramovich or Mansour, I see worry that is understandable in circumstances. But I think the reduced aspirations are in relation to on field performance, relegation would change the costs and projections dramatically and that would start to undermine potential stadium. But barring the worst case scenario's, I think the stadium is the main part of the project and while he wants to compete ASAP, I think he will be happy settling for steady, stable growth in the short term.


November 08, 2017, 11:06:50 PM
Reply #2421
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therealdunc


Is it correct that 10% of Goodison Park is restricted or obstructed views?

Time to move on to a bigger ground. The lack of tickets for games last season and this season, especially tickets with non restricted views demonstrates we could easily fill a 50k or 60k stadium in a city with a growing population.

Also not all new grounds or stands have a negative effect on the atmosphere .
Blue

November 08, 2017, 11:10:24 PM
Reply #2422
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Simon Paul

Administrator
Is it correct that 10% of Goodison Park is restricted or obstructed views?

Time to move on to a bigger ground. The lack of tickets for games last season and this season, especially tickets with non restricted views demonstrates we could easily fill a 50k or 60k stadium in a city with a growing population.

Also not all new grounds or stands have a negative effect on the atmosphere .

Technically it is 10% but it could be argued more or less depending on your criteria or agenda

Obstructed views currently count as being a seat where part or all of one of the goals is not visible.

When you're winning matches then it doesn't really matter though. Nobody cared about the view when we smashed Bayern did they?

November 09, 2017, 03:02:36 AM
Reply #2423
Online

D15TIN


Goodison has actually reduced in capacity these last few years with the disabled sections installed, think the max we can now get is just over 39,500, we have maxed out our season tickets - we need a bigger stadium

November 09, 2017, 07:01:57 AM
Reply #2424
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Thomas


I love Goodison Park as much as any Evertonian, and it will be a sad day when we eventually bid the old lady farewell for good. However, she's well past her sell by date now and no longer fit for purpose. She's slowly falling to pieces and there's only so many sticking plasters that you can apply before you have to accept that it's time to move on.
It's one thing drawing up a plan to redevelop on paper. It's a whole different ball game actually delivering a redeveloped Goodison Park. Where would we play whilst the redevelopment took place? How long would it take to buy up sufficient land around the stadium to provide a sufficient footprint for a bigger and better modern Goodison? It took the shite years to get the land that they wanted for their big fuck off loft conversion.
I don't doubt at all that our Majority shareholder is looking to make a profit. Why shouldn't a businessman make a profit on his investment? If He's not looking to make some profit, then why even bother making an investment?
I just want to see Everton back where they belong, competing with the big boys, not settling for mid-table mediocrity. If a nice shiny new stadium, in an area that is ripe for new investment, helps us on our way back to the top, then bring it on.
Premier League football has not been all about the love of the game for years. It's a business!

It depends whether the man is being a carpet bagger or not. I don't trust a man whose primary motive is profit NOT Everton to look after our club nor be in tune with fans enough to find a good home for us. He can barely conduct media interviews or transfer business or (allegedly although Panorama and The FA/EPL Disagree on this) acquisitions of companies legitimately/properly so you can see why I don't trust him to relocate us.

I genuinely cannot understand how fans are so easily letting go of such a mainstay of our fabric in Goodison without even investigating if as Liverpool did - whose ground was also in tatters, whether we could regenerate the stadium. I think we can. Trevor Skempton thought we could. I get that having a primary school next door and no compulsory purchase orders with the houses makes things difficult, but I cant see why the Park End cannot be made bigger at the very least and facilities upgraded stage by stage. Also dont forget Man City won the league and still cannot fill their stadium. We also at Goodison regularly win awards for our hospality so why do we need more boxes in a fucking souless bowl?

Fans need to be careful what they wish for. Home is where the heart is. We have never even contemplated or explored regenerating Goodison. It could be done. Beats inflated ticket prices in a soulless end of town in a stadium with hardly any sentimental value or history. If it was in the Walton area and with a safe standing section I might have been a little more conciliatory , but instead, its being done for personal profit reasons and in an already gentrified city centre whilst abandoning a run down area that needs help.

I've heard it all before when i was part of KEOIC and when i voted against moving in the referendum. Loads of Pro-Kirkby people telling me how amazing it was all going to be. It ended up being unveiled as a laughing stock and got called in by the government.

You may have conceded its a business and of course it is, but that does not mean we shouldn't try to retain some aspects of what the love of the beautiful game is all about. Our heritage,legacy, identity and what we hold dear as fans. I dont know for me as soon as we play in that new stadium the commercialisation of Everton into a brand not a football club is complete for me. I dont know whether I could stomach it.

I dont neccesarily think me and @Ridge even completely agree (if we agree at all) but I think he understands very accurately my natural suspicion about this ploy of Moshiri to move us out of Goodison as a business policy but also for his personal motives. Its being done for economic reasons, not football. No thought has gone into the protection of Walton as an area if we left Goodison or whether we would after several seasons continue to fill our stadium.

Being at Goodison vs Watford made me think how on earth can we just abandon this? I love it. I go there and feel happy. Its home. Its where we belong. For some to say its bricks and mortar is sacriligious.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 07:13:18 AM by Thomas »

November 09, 2017, 07:14:06 AM
Reply #2425
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KingOfNapaValley


Sorry, it is ridiculous, the idea of renovating Goodison, when a new stadium on the dock is possible.

1. We would have to redevelop one stand at a time in a reno
2. This would reduce capacity by thousands per match while the stand is re-done
3. It would take AT MINIMIUM 2 years to re-do each stand
4. That means at least 8 years, and maybe 10+ where we are well below capacity
5. Any PL club with ambition cannot afford a decade of sub-par attendance. Every dollar is needed.
6. We can have a new stadium completed in 3 years after groundbreaking
7. There is more ground to build on, meaning better concourses, amenities, etc. Ever see the footprint of new stadiums? At least twice the square footage of old stadiums.
8. We can begin the process of owning the entire city with the dock location
9. The land on the dock allows greater ability to use the property for other income sources
10. It will cost more to renovate than to build new, per square foot.

I've had enough of those who are so stuck in the past that they are willing to destroy the club, rather than embrace any kind of change.

November 09, 2017, 07:18:01 AM
Reply #2426
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Thomas


It still amazes me how half of Liverpool is being regenerated/monuments like Lime St Station have been redeveloped several times over and the surrounding area, yet our fans cant even consider regenerating our own stadium.

Its a cognitive dissonance almost akin to wanting dour football but criticizing Diego Simeone for playing dour football at Athletico Madrid...

November 09, 2017, 07:19:40 AM
Reply #2427
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Thomas


Sorry, it is ridiculous, the idea of renovating Goodison, when a new stadium on the dock is possible.

1. We would have to redevelop one stand at a time in a reno
2. This would reduce capacity by thousands per match while the stand is re-done
3. It would take AT MINIMIUM 2 years to re-do each stand
4. That means at least 8 years, and maybe 10+ where we are well below capacity
5. Any PL club with ambition cannot afford a decade of sub-par attendance. Every dollar is needed.
6. We can have a new stadium completed in 3 years after groundbreaking
7. There is more ground to build on, meaning better concourses, amenities, etc. Ever see the footprint of new stadiums? At least twice the square footage of old stadiums.
8. We can begin the process of owning the entire city with the dock location
9. The land on the dock allows greater ability to use the property for other income sources
10. It will cost more to renovate than to build new, per square foot.

I've had enough of those who are so stuck in the past that they are willing to destroy the club, rather than embrace any kind of change.

How very final. Not that clear cut. This isn't a Corporate Board Room. Its football. Emotion is involved. Its allowed.

Besides, Liverpool accomplished redevelopment with ONE stand.

November 09, 2017, 11:55:58 AM
Reply #2428
Offline

Polledreng

NSNO Subscriber
Technically it is 10% but it could be argued more or less depending on your criteria or agenda

Obstructed views currently count as being a seat where part or all of one of the goals is not visible.

When you're winning matches then it doesn't really matter though. Nobody cared about the view when we smashed Bayern did they?
but then it was in the 80ties when I had to use a phonebox to phone home.... A few years ago I had the worst place ever at GP when we beat Villa 3-0 Backrow of The Gwladys Lower so in fact Iím not sure we won 3-0..Didnít see any action in the Street End as People in front of course was on there feet.. I saved a pound though....

November 09, 2017, 12:09:23 PM
Reply #2429
Offline

Goaljira

NSNO Subscriber
It still amazes me how half of Liverpool is being regenerated/monuments like Lime St Station have been redeveloped several times over and the surrounding area, yet our fans cant even consider regenerating our own stadium.

Its a cognitive dissonance almost akin to wanting dour football but criticizing Diego Simeone for playing dour football at Athletico Madrid...

Surely you've not just compared the cosmetic remodelling of buildings to building a whole football stadium?
Cordiali saluti, motherfuckers.