October 23, 2018, 10:12:31 PM

Author Topic: Steven N'Zonzi  (Read 13736 times)

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December 29, 2017, 05:41:51 PM
Reply #105
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Shropshire Blue

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Have Everton fans got the patience to build for the future?
Anyone hear the moaning at W Brom at how we played?
The Himalayas has the Yeti, Norway has Trolls, America has Hillbillies. You, good people, are blessed with Shropshire.


December 29, 2017, 05:46:07 PM
Reply #106
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GLewis

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And the rabble next door.

They’ve tended to buy CL level players though just not ones that the elite clubs would want.

£30m+ for Firmino was a lot of money. Mane wasn’t exactly cheap and wouldn’t sign for us if we were an option etc. Same for Salah.

December 29, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
Reply #107
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dekko


N’Zonzi is an instant upgrade to Schneiderlin, and if we sell him, it won’t look so bad.
I’d say go and get him for 25mil, we’ll still get 3 maybe 4 good years from him, plenty of time for some youngsters to mature or buy a replacement. 


December 29, 2017, 05:51:39 PM
Reply #108
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Ross


They’ve tended to buy CL level players though just not ones that the elite clubs would want.

£30m+ for Firmino was a lot of money. Mane wasn’t exactly cheap and wouldn’t sign for us if we were an option etc. Same for Salah.

Isn’t £25m for a Seville player pretty much the equivalent?

The only thing being we’ve got a plethora of similar players it seems and he’s closer to retirement than all of them.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 05:55:43 PM by Ross »
There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

December 29, 2017, 05:51:50 PM
Reply #109
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GLewis

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I know a lot of people don't like them but Spurs has to be the sustainable blueprint for how we want to break into the top 6.

We're never going to be able to outspend the rich clubs, so we have to find another way and aside from Leicester's freak season, Spurs have provided the only obvious alternative way to do it.

Yes Kane is a big part of that but even with him, there was nothing in his early career to suggest he was going to become the monster he's become so it's hard not to conclude that the manager is a massive part of his development.

In the main they have invested in talent in the 20-24 bracket, got a very good manager to work with them and improve them and grown the side into greater than the sum of their parts through good scouting, good recruitment and brilliant coaching.

Nzonzi is a good player but he's unlikely to improve at 29 and it's probable that he will decline a bit, and then 2/3 seasons later you probably have to replace him.

RBLeipzig are another team who do what Spurs have done. Identify the best young talents before they become big, and get them before they become £50m players.

Surely that has to be the way for us.

It’ll be interesting to see what they’re like if / when Pochettino goes.

Could be that they struck lucky with the coach rather than a sustainable model for consistent challenges etc.

Leipzig is interesting as they clearly spend decent amounts otherwise most of the rest of the country wouldn’t hate them.

It’s also more fluid in Germany below Bayern.

Having said all that I agree with the general premise.

But we could point to Pickford, Keane, Klaassen and Sandro as an attempt this summer to sign the spine of the team with player who are sub 24.

We’ve got a distance to catch up the top 6 so, given that we know all young players are gambles, we also need some players who will play exactly how you think / want them to.

Unfortunately players like Schneiderlin haven’t provided that guarantee of consistency so we’d still be looking for a midfielder for example.

December 29, 2017, 05:55:23 PM
Reply #110
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GLewis

NSNO Subscriber
Isn’t £25m for a Seville player pretty much the equivalent?

The only thing being we’ve got a plethora of similar players it seems and he’s closer than retirement than them all.

Re him specifically see my post above with regards to Schneiderlin.

I do think we should be after some Lukaku / Fellaini type signings too though.

Of course re Spurs (or any of the other top teams) if we’d been in that bracket then we probably would have had better players with Stones, Lukaku etc and therefore selling them doesn’t leave massive gaps and is easier to find replacements.


December 29, 2017, 06:05:21 PM
Reply #111
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mikey_blue


I know a lot of people don't like them but Spurs has to be the sustainable blueprint for how we want to break into the top 6.

We're never going to be able to outspend the rich clubs, so we have to find another way and aside from Leicester's freak season, Spurs have provided the only obvious alternative way to do it.

Yes Kane is a big part of that but even with him, there was nothing in his early career to suggest he was going to become the monster he's become so it's hard not to conclude that the manager is a massive part of his development.

In the main they have invested in talent in the 20-24 bracket, got a very good manager to work with them and improve them and grown the side into greater than the sum of their parts through good scouting, good recruitment and brilliant coaching.

Nzonzi is a good player but he's unlikely to improve at 29 and it's probable that he will decline a bit, and then 2/3 seasons later you probably have to replace him.

RBLeipzig are another team who do what Spurs have done. Identify the best young talents before they become big, and get them before they become £50m players.

Surely that has to be the way for us.

At the moment we're playing at the moment we're regularly playing 4/5 teenagers in probably one of the more physical leagues in the world. Our recruitment strategy has mainly been based on necessity. I think the influx of cash to the youth teams has show what our blueprint is going to be, we're obviously thinking long term, but the short term is important too.

Until we can become a more attractive proposition to highly rated 23/24 year olds, we have to aim a bit lower, either in terms of shelf life, or players who might not be completely ready to be starting week in week out. Spurs are really in a good position now, but they have always been able to attract a higher calibre of player, it's not just recently. Their recent purple patch can largely be attributed to an academy players and one who's now outscoring Messi. Let's not downplay how much Kane is contributing to their performances. The way their wage structure is could certainly spell for disaster too.

December 29, 2017, 06:06:14 PM
Reply #112
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Danny


We need he height, he’s 6ft4 and his all round play was great when he was at Stoke and Blackburn never mind after years for Sevilla.

We should be all over this.

December 29, 2017, 06:09:42 PM
Reply #113
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Ross


Re him specifically see my post above with regards to Schneiderlin.

I do think we should be after some Lukaku / Fellaini type signings too though.

Of course re Spurs (or any of the other top teams) if we’d been in that bracket then we probably would have had better players with Stones, Lukaku etc and therefore selling them doesn’t leave massive gaps and is easier to find replacements.

The general point is you don’t need to be buying ageing (or “experienced”) players to successfully qualify for the big event. There’s at least two clubs who’ve competed with more affluent clubs and bridged the divide, and that’s just in this league.

Paying £25m for a 29 year old who’s not much of an improvement on our 28 year old we’ve not long bought for £25m and will have trouble moving on doesn’t sound like a great business plan that’s sustainable. Especially when there’s urgent surgery required elsewhere in the squad.
There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

December 29, 2017, 06:17:37 PM
Reply #114
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Bluedylan


At the moment we're playing at the moment we're regularly playing 4/5 teenagers in probably one of the more physical leagues in the world. Our recruitment strategy has mainly been based on necessity. I think the influx of cash to the youth teams has show what our blueprint is going to be, we're obviously thinking long term, but the short term is important too.

Until we can become a more attractive proposition to highly rated 23/24 year olds, we have to aim a bit lower, either in terms of shelf life, or players who might not be completely ready to be starting week in week out. Spurs are really in a good position now, but they have always been able to attract a higher calibre of player, it's not just recently. Their recent purple patch can largely be attributed to an academy players and one who's now outscoring Messi. Let's not downplay how much Kane is contributing to their performances. The way their wage structure is could certainly spell for disaster too.

Remember Moshiri's 'small window'? Well that's closing. We're falling further and further behind and another two seasons of stop gap signings will only exacerbate that. Time to put some proper long term structure in place (for me anyway). We'll never catch up without a proper model that is sustainable and considered.
Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.

December 29, 2017, 06:37:06 PM
Reply #115
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ally2


A sustainable model is great but if there are clear deficiencies in the team (as determined by the management anyway) that can be immediately addressed by signing the right player then that should be done, even if they're older than you'd like. It could be for example that such a player could fill the gaps needed to allow some of our younger players to flourish in certain areas of their game.

December 29, 2017, 06:46:55 PM
Reply #116
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ally2


As for spurs, I'm not having them as a model. Yes they got it right in the end, but it was probably more luck than judgement, and it took them 20 years. Went through managers from arch enemy ultimate pragmatist George Graham, to euro punt Christian Gross, to cockney wide boy 'Arry Redknapp to euro hipster AVB to true football man Captain Bellend. They usually went for younger players but hit the jackpots in Bale and Kane. They were ready to sell Bale. We were in for Naughton. And they've got the London pull.

December 29, 2017, 06:56:00 PM
Reply #117
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mikey_blue


A sustainable model is great but if there are clear deficiencies in the team (as determined by the management anyway) that can be immediately addressed by signing the right player then that should be done, even if they're older than you'd like. It could be for example that such a player could fill the gaps needed to allow some of our younger players to flourish in certain areas of their game.

Perfect example in Barry and Distin. Passed their prime but class is usually something that never goes away.

It's not like we're not signing younger players. Keane, Pickford, Klaassen, Tosun. Some of them have just been shit lol. In hindsight I'd prefer a 32 year old Barry than a 24 year old Klaassen

December 29, 2017, 06:58:37 PM
Reply #118
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Bluedylan


As for spurs, I'm not having them as a model. Yes they got it right in the end, but it was probably more luck than judgement, and it took them 20 years. Went through managers from arch enemy ultimate pragmatist George Graham, to euro punt Christian Gross, to cockney wide boy 'Arry Redknapp to euro hipster AVB to true football man Captain Bellend. They usually went for younger players but hit the jackpots in Bale and Kane. They were ready to sell Bale. We were in for Naughton. And they've got the London pull.

Obviously I'm not talking about Spurs 20 years ago, as you well know. I'm talking about them in the last few years.

Players signed that are well before their peak, who will improve and grow massively in value. Lloris (£12m), Dembele (£15m), Vertonghen (£10m), Eriksen (£11m), Alli (£5m), Dier (£4m), Alderweireld (£11.5m), Trippier (£3.5m), Wanyama (£11m), Walker (£3m), Rose (£1m).

None of those players were at big clubs that would be out of our reach. Obviously prices have inflated so we're not going to be getting anyone for £1m but that model has worked and, along with exceptional management and coaching, has transformed that club from an also ran to a team that can get 86 points in a Prem season.
Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.

December 29, 2017, 07:30:04 PM
Reply #119
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blue slug


Obviously I'm not talking about Spurs 20 years ago, as you well know. I'm talking about them in the last few years.

Players signed that are well before their peak, who will improve and grow massively in value. Lloris (£12m), Dembele (£15m), Vertonghen (£10m), Eriksen (£11m), Alli (£5m), Dier (£4m), Alderweireld (£11.5m), Trippier (£3.5m), Wanyama (£11m), Walker (£3m), Rose (£1m).

None of those players were at big clubs that would be out of our reach. Obviously prices have inflated so we're not going to be getting anyone for £1m but that model has worked and, along with exceptional management and coaching, has transformed that club from an also ran to a team that can get 86 points in a Prem season.

Bloody hell I didn’t realise some of those players were so cheap, great business by the wankers