July 20, 2018, 10:00:00 PM

Author Topic: Steven N'Zonzi  (Read 12099 times)

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December 29, 2017, 07:47:31 PM
Reply #120
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Goaljira

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Obviously I'm not talking about Spurs 20 years ago, as you well know. I'm talking about them in the last few years.

Players signed that are well before their peak, who will improve and grow massively in value. Lloris (£12m), Dembele (£15m), Vertonghen (£10m), Eriksen (£11m), Alli (£5m), Dier (£4m), Alderweireld (£11.5m), Trippier (£3.5m), Wanyama (£11m), Walker (£3m), Rose (£1m).

None of those players were at big clubs that would be out of our reach. Obviously prices have inflated so we're not going to be getting anyone for £1m but that model has worked and, along with exceptional management and coaching, has transformed that club from an also ran to a team that can get 86 points in a Prem season.

Its nothing groundbreaking though.  Its the same as we've done with Baines, Jagielka, Lescott, Coleman, Stones, Lukaku, Arteta, Cahill, etc who all were bought and saw their values rise exponentially whilst with us - some we sold, some we kept too long and lost the value on.  And for every one you've listed above there will be 2 that haven't worked out, the same as we've had.  You've got your Lamela's, Soldado's, N'Jie's, Townsend's, Yedlin's, Paulinho's, Lewis Holtby's, etc.

In Pickford, Holgate, Keane, Gueye, Lookman, DCL, we've got young players bought before their prime who's value we hope will continue to rise.
Cordiali saluti, motherfuckers.


December 29, 2017, 07:52:35 PM
Reply #121
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blargins

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Bloody hell I didn’t realise some of those players were so cheap, great business by the wankers

Those prices today would probably similar to what we've paid for our players. Lloris at 12 million is way more than we paid for Pickford in comparison.

Alli and Lookman were about the same price.

They just struck gold that the players they have are true team players and work very well together.
"I wouldn't be up here if I hadn't failed a million times." Nick Foles

December 29, 2017, 08:00:29 PM
Reply #122
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GLewis

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The general point is you don’t need to be buying ageing (or “experienced”) players to successfully qualify for the big event. There’s at least two clubs who’ve competed with more affluent clubs and bridged the divide, and that’s just in this league.

Paying £25m for a 29 year old who’s not much of an improvement on our 28 year old we’ve not long bought for £25m and will have trouble moving on doesn’t sound like a great business plan that’s sustainable. Especially when there’s urgent surgery required elsewhere in the squad.

Ignoring the squad necessity argument which has a point (unless players are leaving); both Spurs and L’pool were in much stronger positions than us.

The only gatecrashers from way outside that group were city who did buy more experienced players for big money.

As I said I don’t think that we shouldn’t be buying some younger players but equally we have.


December 29, 2017, 08:26:53 PM
Reply #123
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Bluedylan


Its nothing groundbreaking though.  Its the same as we've done with Baines, Jagielka, Lescott, Coleman, Stones, Lukaku, Arteta, Cahill, etc who all were bought and saw their values rise exponentially whilst with us - some we sold, some we kept too long and lost the value on.  And for every one you've listed above there will be 2 that haven't worked out, the same as we've had.  You've got your Lamela's, Soldado's, N'Jie's, Townsend's, Yedlin's, Paulinho's, Lewis Holtby's, etc.

In Pickford, Holgate, Keane, Gueye, Lookman, DCL, we've got young players bought before their prime who's value we hope will continue to rise.

Yep, you're right to point to Moyes' recruitment as an example of someone else doing similar. Agreed. I don't think I said it was groundbreaking or unique. I'm saying it's effective, if done well, and that's what we need to do, rather than stop gaps and short term measures.

And no you won't get them all right (Kroldrup) but that still shouldn't stop you doing it.

Gana's a bit older but some of the other players you point to, yes, good examples that we are trying to bring youth in. Let's continue with that and do it better.

My fear, and it's an obvious one, is that Allardyce plugs a few holes with short term type buys, he leaves in the summer or next summer, and then we've got another mishmash of different managers' players than will need moving on for the next squad rebuild.
Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.

December 29, 2017, 09:58:21 PM
Reply #124
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van der Meyde


I don't think the consequences of having plenty of older players on long term contracts are being fully appreciated here.

Let's use the richest club in the league as an example of why having lots of older players in the same position is a problem.

Full back was a bit of a problem position for them. They had Zabaleta, Sagna, Clichy and Kolarov all on massive contracts until this summer. All decent players, all broadly good enough to play in the Premier League. None of them good enough for where they wanted to be.

Now why didn't City replace them earlier? Well, even for City it was financially difficult to do that. The players were on massive contracts, they weren't going to go to another club to earn less.

If ages and wages are a problem for Manchester City, as they were for Chelsea too, they're going to be a problem for Everton. When people say that there's nothing stopping us going out and buying younger players too, well I'm afraid there is. There are squad size and wage bill restrictions. As we build our first 11 and squad, we'll have more pressing positions - we already have them at left back, up front and on the wing. We're not going to buy those younger defensive mids because it won't be the most pressing position.

If we sell one of Gueye or Schneiderlin, then you can make an argument for bringing in Nzonzi, sure. If we don't though, with the wages they'll be on, they'll be here until they're 32, 33+. I don't underestimate the value of having experienced players, but - Nzonzi aside maybe - it's already fairly well established that the players we have aren't actually good enough for the level we aspire to.

We want to break into the Champions League places. If our older players aren't good enough for that level at 28 - and generally they aren't - they're not going to be good enough when they're 32.
...

December 29, 2017, 10:16:30 PM
Reply #125
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blue slug


Those prices today would probably similar to what we've paid for our players. Lloris at 12 million is way more than we paid for Pickford in comparison.

Alli and Lookman were about the same price.

They just struck gold that the players they have are true team players and work very well together.

I’d have no problem paying over 25m each for all those players, far better quality than we have bought in


December 29, 2017, 10:35:11 PM
Reply #126
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Lxxx


I do wonder if Walsh has any kind of blueprint he's working to or if he's just trying to save his job by appeasing successive managers and hoping it works out. Since he's joined there hasn't been a clearly definable model he's tried to implement, his first summer was a mishmash of Stekelenburg, Williams, Bolasie and Gueye. Following January was Schneiderlin and Lookman and enough has been written about the summer. We're turning into a squad of players who are past their best and players a long way from reaching their best, which isn't really conducive to getting to where Moshiri states we want to be, in the timeframe he wants it.

December 29, 2017, 10:35:56 PM
Reply #127
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blargins

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I’d have no problem paying over 25m each for all those players, far better quality than we have bought in

Me neither. But at the time, they didn't know they would be such successes just as we didn't know many of what we've brought in wouldn't be.
"I wouldn't be up here if I hadn't failed a million times." Nick Foles

December 29, 2017, 10:36:00 PM
Reply #128
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brap2

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I know a lot of people don't like them but Spurs has to be the sustainable blueprint for how we want to break into the top 6.

We're never going to be able to outspend the rich clubs, so we have to find another way and aside from Leicester's freak season, Spurs have provided the only obvious alternative way to do it.

Yes Kane is a big part of that but even with him, there was nothing in his early career to suggest he was going to become the monster he's become so it's hard not to conclude that the manager is a massive part of his development.

In the main they have invested in talent in the 20-24 bracket, got a very good manager to work with them and improve them and grown the side into greater than the sum of their parts through good scouting, good recruitment and brilliant coaching.

Nzonzi is a good player but he's unlikely to improve at 29 and it's probable that he will decline a bit, and then 2/3 seasons later you probably have to replace him.

RBLeipzig are another team who do what Spurs have done. Identify the best young talents before they become big, and get them before they become £50m players.

Surely that has to be the way for us.

We are trying this I think, but with the odd outlier, as the shite and spurs do also.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 29, 2017, 11:15:45 PM
Reply #129
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Bob Sacamano


Up for this one. Morgan has shit the bed, a player we want d to be the lynchpin in the centre of the pitch for the next few years. So we’re going out and buying a dead cert that will be the lynchpin for the next few years. These dead certs cost good money.

We’ve got plenty of youth coming through, I’d rather we concentrated on these guys rather than bringing in someone aged 23/24 for circa £20m, that’s 4yrs older than them and causing way more damage to their progression than N’Zonzi at 29 costing £25m.

We have to protect the short term as we position ourselves for the long term.

December 29, 2017, 11:22:30 PM
Reply #130
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GrantyBoy78


The general point is you don't need to be buying ageing (or "experienced”) players to successfully qualify for the big event. There's at least two clubs who've competed with more affluent clubs and bridged the divide, and that's just in this league.

Paying £25m for a 29 year old who's not much of an improvement on our 28 year old we've not long bought for £25m and will have trouble moving on doesn't sound like a great business plan that's sustainable. Especially when there's urgent surgery required elsewhere in the squad.
He’s not going to replace Schneiderlein, he’s a box-to-box player (as Sam said in his presser). He’ll play instead of Davies and he’ll be a massive upgrade.

December 29, 2017, 11:26:37 PM
Reply #131
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Ross


He’s not going to replace Schneiderlein, he’s a box-to-box player (as Sam said in his presser). He’ll play instead of Davies and he’ll be a massive upgrade.

A box to box midfielder with about 8 goals in 300 games?
There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

December 29, 2017, 11:28:49 PM
Reply #132
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brap2

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We are trying this I think, but with the odd outlier, as the shite and spurs do also.

Also we are worse at identifying players than those teams so our results have been poor.

Have a look at @reverse_ball on twitter, good insight on transfers from Liverpool perspective. Picking up proven sub/peak talent from top leagues (firmino, Mane, Salah) before that some major youth success (coutinho, Sterling, sturridge)

They have also has a strategy of non top league talent which looks a bit more like us atm (Lookman, Adeniran, Henry, Tosun) during which time they got assaidi, boring, Asos’s, markovic, origi...so you can see what we’re doing is probably even more risky, given Liverpool’s general successful transfers.

When you buy ‘risks’ at Sub peak ages from non top 5 leagues they are just more than likely going to die on their arse.

When you spend big on attacking talent and supplement with intelligent purchases you reap rewards.

We’re quite bad at both.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

December 29, 2017, 11:43:18 PM
Reply #133
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GrantyBoy78


A sustainable model is great but if there are clear deficiencies in the team (as determined by the management anyway) that can be immediately addressed by signing the right player then that should be done, even if they're older than you'd like. It could be for example that such a player could fill the gaps needed to allow some of our younger players to flourish in certain areas of their game.
Agree. We’ve struggled to win the midfield battle all season. I think N’zonzi will give us that physical presence and passing ability to dominate teams and give us a platform to play better football.

December 29, 2017, 11:44:32 PM
Reply #134
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GLewis

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Also we are worse at identifying players than those teams so our results have been poor.

Have a look at @reverse_ball on twitter, good insight on transfers from Liverpool perspective. Picking up proven sub/peak talent from top leagues (firmino, Mane, Salah) before that some major youth success (coutinho, Sterling, sturridge)

They have also has a strategy of non top league talent which looks a bit more like us atm (Lookman, Adeniran, Henry, Tosun) during which time they got assaidi, boring, Asos’s, markovic, origi...so you can see what we’re doing is probably even more risky, given Liverpool’s general successful transfers.

When you buy ‘risks’ at Sub peak ages from non top 5 leagues they are just more than likely going to die on their arse.

When you spend big on attacking talent and supplement with intelligent purchases you reap rewards.

We’re quite bad at both.


Yes I’d say it’s the players we’ve bought rather than the type.

I don’t think we’d get Firmino, Salah, Mane (the same way they didn’t get Willian, Sanchez etc).

If we’re moving down a level from that type of player we’re signing either worse players from those league or players from worse leagues which are more risky.

But we’ve signed a good number of players 24 and under.