June 24, 2018, 10:37:17 AM

Author Topic: Firmino/Holgate incident  (Read 17969 times)

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January 08, 2018, 02:30:36 PM
Reply #45
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Macca77


More have jumped on the hillsborough band wagon, Robbie Fowler as well apparently

You know what, I was hoping that Firmino didn't say anything racist to Holgate, thinking that whatever was said was lost in translation somewhere, but now I hope he did say it and I hope the FA have proof and throw the book at him and that fucking club.


January 08, 2018, 02:57:44 PM
Reply #46
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Mick 1995

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No lads, @Jimmywhack is 100% correct here and any deviation from his opinion is definitely incorrect.

"intent" is irrelevant. If i think it's ok to call someone a pikey because it seems to be what is said amongst my peers and the someone who i've called it takes offence (because they're a romany gypsy or a traveller) then yes, it's fucking racist.
the colour of MY skin is irrelevant.

It is racist if:
- The person saying it intends it to be racist.
- The person hearing it things it's racist.
- A random fucking person walking past hears it & thinks it's racist regardless of what the 2 people having the conversation thinks.

The current backlash of "just because you're offended doesn't mean you are right" is correct. But that doesn't apply to being able to directly insult somebody about something they have no direct control.

January 08, 2018, 03:11:34 PM
Reply #47
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Audrey Horne

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Forgive my raging ignorance, but Firmino is hispanic right? Latino? I read an article a while back stating the violence between hispanics and black people, so there is a difference there.
I have to return some videotapes.

Vamos lá Everton!


January 08, 2018, 03:26:10 PM
Reply #48
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Duncs_a_legend

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No lads, @Jimmywhack is 100% correct here and any deviation from his opinion is definitely incorrect.

"intent" is irrelevant. If i think it's ok to call someone a pikey because it seems to be what is said amongst my peers and the someone who i've called it takes offence (because they're a romany gypsy or a traveller) then yes, it's fucking racist.
the colour of MY skin is irrelevant.

It is racist if:
- The person saying it intends it to be racist.
- The person hearing it things it's racist.
- A random fucking person walking past hears it & thinks it's racist regardless of what the 2 people having the conversation thinks.

The current backlash of "just because you're offended doesn't mean you are right" is correct. But that doesn't apply to being able to directly insult somebody about something they have no direct control.

It's not racist as it wasn't meant as an insult and he's the same skin colour as the guy saying it. By the sound of it he's used it in the same way as people use 'brother' or 'mate', he's just misjudged the other guys thoughts on it. Ridiculous to even suggest it's racist in that context.

The history of the word and the reasons why the majority of black people in western society feel it's ok to use it amongst another each other tells you enough. Its completely and utterly different to your 'pikey' argument.


Edit: all this is assuming it's in the above context. If a black lad called another lad the N word as an insult, then ye, it's racist.

For some reason I thought the first scenario actually happened in the pub in front of Jimmy (bit late when I first read it)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 03:31:24 PM by Duncs_a_legend »
"I would never die for my beliefs...because I might be wrong"

January 08, 2018, 03:29:43 PM
Reply #49
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Mick 1995

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Forgive my raging ignorance, but Firmino is hispanic right? Latino? I read an article a while back stating the violence between hispanics and black people, so there is a difference there.

oh, it's a massive difference. It's raging racisim to think that because they're both "not white" then they're basically the same and can't be racist towards each other.
One is latino (not Hispanic, that term excludes Brazil) one is British of mixed English & afro-caribbean descent.
It's as different as an Inuit & Korean are.

January 08, 2018, 03:32:31 PM
Reply #50
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Mick 1995

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It's not racist as it wasn't meant as an insult and he's the same skin colour as the guy saying it. By the sound of it he's used it in the same way as people use 'brother' or 'mate', he's just misjudged the other guys thoughts on it. Ridiculous to even suggest it's racist in that context.

The history of the word and the reasons why the majority of black people in western society feel it's ok to use it amongst another each other tells you enough. Its completely and utterly different to your 'pikey' argument.


No mate, both legally and morally you're just wrong.
Listen, if your argument involves the phrase "he's the same skin colour", just assume that your logic is off somewhere.

The intent of the speaker isn't relevant. If i called a Spurs supporter a yid, then i'm a massive bellend and regardless of "thats the name for Spurs supoorters, i didn't mean to insult you" it doesn't change the fact i'd be a dickhead.
Even if i was Jewish, it would still mark me as a bellend


January 08, 2018, 03:32:51 PM
Reply #51
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Audrey Horne

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oh, it's a massive difference. It's raging racisim to think that because they're both "not white" then they're basically the same and can't be racist towards each other.
One is latino (not Hispanic, that term excludes Brazil) one is British of mixed English & afro-caribbean descent.
It's as different as an Inuit & Korean are.

Thats what i'm saying yeah, its not one black guy calling another black guy the N word. Which is what alot of people are saying (not necessarily on here)
I have to return some videotapes.

Vamos lá Everton!

January 08, 2018, 03:35:55 PM
Reply #52
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Mick 1995

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Going to let the actual law have the last word on this:



A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—
            (a) they intend thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
            (b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.


You are only focusing on (a) here. But (b) is important. It's racist speech if anybody who is NOT the speaker (because they're covered in (a)) feels like it is racist.

January 08, 2018, 03:36:50 PM
Reply #53
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Duncs_a_legend

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No mate, both legally and morally you're just wrong.
Listen, if your argument involves the phrase "he's the same skin colour", just assume that your logic is off somewhere.

The intent of the speaker isn't relevant. If i called a Spurs supporter a yid, then i'm a massive bellend and regardless of "thats the name for Spurs supoorters, i didn't mean to insult you" it doesn't change the fact i'd be a dickhead.
Even if i was Jewish, it would still mark me as a bellend

It's particular to that word and the history around it, I don't know any single black person who would think it's racist to be called a N word by another black person if it was used in a friendly or endearing way.

Someone could take offence and might think they're a dick for thinking they were close enough to allow it (as you wouldn't usually just say it to a stranger, not in the UK anyway), but being a dick doesn't means it's racist.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 03:38:36 PM by Duncs_a_legend »
"I would never die for my beliefs...because I might be wrong"

January 08, 2018, 04:03:57 PM
Reply #54
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Duncs_a_legend

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Going to let the actual law have the last word on this:



A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—
            (a) they intend thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
            (b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.


You are only focusing on (a) here. But (b) is important. It's racist speech if anybody who is NOT the speaker (because they're covered in (a)) feels like it is racist.



Again, if a black guy walks up to another black guy and uses the N word in an endearing or friendly way "hows things N..." or uses it in conversation somewhere, then he isn't guilty of either A or B, as it's near enough globally recognised as something that it fine amongst black people.

He hasn't intended to stir up racial hatred, nor do the circumstances make it likely that it will be.

Completely different to a non black person saying it.

The argument that black  people shouldn't say the N word to each other sounds all a bit Ron Atkinson.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 04:17:31 PM by Duncs_a_legend »
"I would never die for my beliefs...because I might be wrong"

January 08, 2018, 04:05:41 PM
Reply #55
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Mick 1995

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"near enough globally recognised as something that it fine amongst black people."

 :-\

January 08, 2018, 04:13:37 PM
Reply #56
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Duncs_a_legend

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"near enough globally recognised as something that it fine amongst black people."

 :-\

It is, it's usually non black people that seem to have an issue with it. As I've said before my mother is mixed race, my grandad is black, if the word was used to them in that instance they wouldn't think it was racist, as it's obvious the person saying is thinking he's just being friendly. They would probably think he's a dick, as it's mostly used amongst young men, not old men and women, but not racist.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 04:15:05 PM by Duncs_a_legend »
"I would never die for my beliefs...because I might be wrong"

January 08, 2018, 04:17:53 PM
Reply #57
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Macca77


I think its pretty clear that if Firmino said something racist, it wasn't in a friendly way. The shite the reds have come out with over the last few days is moronic, they're all singing from the same hymn sheet, and that is "How can he be racist when they're the same colour" lads in work said that this morning, so basically they're saying its ok to call someone a racial slur if you have the same skin tone, its just banter.

January 08, 2018, 04:20:34 PM
Reply #58
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TheRam

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How long is a ban for racism?

January 08, 2018, 04:27:38 PM
Reply #59
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Duncs_a_legend

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I think its pretty clear that if Firmino said something racist, it wasn't in a friendly way. The shite the reds have come out with over the last few days is moronic, they're all singing from the same hymn sheet, and that is "How can he be racist when they're the same colour" lads in work said that this morning, so basically they're saying its ok to call someone a racial slur if you have the same skin tone, its just banter.

Ye, in that case it definitely wasn't said in a friendly way, it's 100% racist. Even if people think it's fine for for 2 people of the same 'race' to say it as an insult (which isn't right), as @Mick 1995 says they're both of different heritage anyway.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 04:39:24 PM by Duncs_a_legend »
"I would never die for my beliefs...because I might be wrong"