October 17, 2019, 01:03:44 PM

Author Topic: Goodison for Gomes?  (Read 121566 times)

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June 30, 2019, 09:42:13 PM
Reply #1830
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KoemansNumberTens




but nowhere did I say i wanted Sam togger. ...was merely stating the obvious fact .. stats can mean fuck all at the end of the day ...its only  the score that matters . :thumbsup:

No body wins a league for most passes .



You don't really believe that do you? The teams with the best stats win the prizes. Surely that's evidence that stats really matter


June 30, 2019, 10:36:55 PM
Reply #1831
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Brownie

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You don't really believe that do you? The teams with the best stats win the prizes. Surely that's evidence that stats really matter

I think where people have an issue with stats is the over reliance on them by some to judge a player and some of the more obscure ones. You donít need stats to tell if someone is a good player or not (imho) and I have a great mistrust of people who get off on stats. Obviously there is a place for them to an extent but I find the whole modern obsession with them very Ďmehí
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June 30, 2019, 10:46:41 PM
Reply #1832
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brap2

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I think where people have an issue with stats is the over reliance on them by some to judge a player and some of the more obscure ones. You donít need stats to tell if someone is a good player or not (imho) and I have a great mistrust of people who get off on stats. Obviously there is a place for them to an extent but I find the whole modern obsession with them very Ďmehí

How do you define over reliance out of curiosity
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.


June 30, 2019, 11:02:13 PM
Reply #1833
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Brownie

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How do you define over reliance out of curiosity

People who properly obsess over them and have very little understanding of the nuances of the game. Itís not just in sport - this over reliance in stats has taken over many aspects of our lives. In education itís rife - but they actually tell only a small part of the story and are more of a hindrance than a help
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June 30, 2019, 11:06:58 PM
Reply #1834
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Shropshire Blue

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Stats show what has happened but don't guarantee it will happen again.
The situations that led to good stats are unique to every game and won't be exactly replicated.
One manager will use a player one way and another manager a different way.
Players form will vary for many reasons.
Stats can be used selectively thus distorting an overall assessment
Stats cannot quantify potential.

Basically stats are 'history' and serve as a guide, no more.
The Himalayas has the Yeti, Norway has Trolls, America has Hillbillies. You, good people, are blessed with Shropshire.

June 30, 2019, 11:17:10 PM
Reply #1835
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brap2

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People who properly obsess over them and have very little understanding of the nuances of the game. Itís not just in sport - this over reliance in stats has taken over many aspects of our lives. In education itís rife - but they actually tell only a small part of the story and are more of a hindrance than a help

Yeah I can imagine especially in education it is a pain in the arse. Contextless numbers when you know what it's like on the ground.

I personally find in regards to footy that nobody with any sense thinks only about numbers. In fact, I don't think I come across anyone on here at all who is like that. I see plenty who disregard stuff that tells a story they don't like, which for me is an equally bad willful ignorance.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.


June 30, 2019, 11:27:00 PM
Reply #1836
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gizzblue


You don't really believe that do you? The teams with the best stats win the prizes. Surely that's evidence that stats really matter

But again it doesn't count for the games your team plays well and losses or plays shite and wins ...it then means fuck all .
Born not made a blue .

June 30, 2019, 11:27:15 PM
Reply #1837
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Brownie

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Yeah I can imagine especially in education it is a pain in the arse. Contextless numbers when you know what it's like on the ground.

I personally find in regards to footy that nobody with any sense thinks only about numbers. In fact, I don't think I come across anyone on here at all who is like that. I see plenty who disregard stuff that tells a story they don't like, which for me is an equally bad willful ignorance.

Itís all I hear from kids though regrading players - stats, stats and more stats. All because thatís what they see on FIFA etc. They canít use their own eyes and knowledge to make judgement. We used to get given out stat packs at the beginning of every season from our coaches - after our first pre-season meeting straight in the bin. I didnít need to be told what my figures were or what I needed to improve upon - I knew
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June 30, 2019, 11:28:11 PM
Reply #1838
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gizzblue


You don't really believe that do you? The teams with the best stats win the prizes. Surely that's evidence that stats really matter

But again it doesn't count for the games your team plays well and losses or plays shite and wins ...it then means fuck all .
Born not made a blue .

June 30, 2019, 11:31:07 PM
Reply #1839
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brap2

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Itís all I hear from kids though regrading players - stats, stats and more stats. All because thatís what they see on FIFA etc. They canít use their own eyes and knowledge to make judgement. We used to get given out stat packs at the beginning of every season from our coaches - after our first pre-season meeting straight in the bin. I didnít need to be told what my figures were or what I needed to improve upon - I knew

Not sure what to say to that really.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

June 30, 2019, 11:32:23 PM
Reply #1840
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Smithers


:-\

Interesting this Brap, cheers. Must say I'm surprised by how 'average' those stats imply he's been. I never really got these graphs (I always just see them as glorified bar charts) but the layout of Gomes in red / league average in blue finally made sense to me.

Is there an equivalent one for his time at Valencia and how he fared there compared to their league's averages? I know it's never as black and white as that (different leagues, team, time, fitness etc etc) but considering that was the period that got him the Barca move, I wonder if that might show a more positive reflection of what he's capable of...
and, if his stats there look similar to the Everton ones, it might also be a good counter for the argument that these stats aren't painting the whole picture (because why would Barca sniff around a bang average midfielder)

June 30, 2019, 11:36:40 PM
Reply #1841
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KoemansNumberTens


But again it doesn't count for the games your team plays well and losses or plays shite and wins ...it then means fuck all .

Iím not sure if your joking or not. Thatís like me suggesting why bother with good players cos bad teams can play poorly and still win games
Good stats good players good tactics are all things what increase a side chances to win.
Teams who regularly play weíll win more games

This isnít in relation to Gomes. Heís a good player and great value.

June 30, 2019, 11:38:56 PM
Reply #1842
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Bob Sacamano

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If you look past the pretty colours and read the numbers, are they not impressive for a debut PL season after no pre-season, series of injuries after being completely frozen out and becoming a bit of a meme for Barca fans?


Poor phrasing. But yeah man whatever.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 11:42:41 PM by Bob Sacamano »

June 30, 2019, 11:43:11 PM
Reply #1843
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Brownie

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Not sure what to say to that really.

Which part?
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June 30, 2019, 11:51:38 PM
Reply #1844
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brap2

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Interesting this Brap, cheers. Must say I'm surprised by how 'average' those stats imply he's been. I never really got these graphs (I always just see them as glorified bar charts) but the layout of Gomes in red / league average in blue finally made sense to me.

Is there an equivalent one for his time at Valencia and how he fared there compared to their league's averages? I know it's never as black and white as that (different leagues, team, time, fitness etc etc) but considering that was the period that got him the Barca move, I wonder if that might show a more positive reflection of what he's capable of...
and, if his stats there look similar to the Everton ones, it might also be a good counter for the argument that these stats aren't painting the whole picture (because why would Barca sniff around a bang average midfielder)

They pretty much are bar charts! Sometimes see them done as bar charts with lines for league average and its better in a lot of ways I think.

Not seen one for valencia vs league average, but his valencia ones are somewhere in this thread. Largely similar if I remember correctly.

Barca make poor buys all the time, but I think they maybe hoped Andre would kick on as he was early 20s with very obvious good points - he's big, powerful, great dribbler and got 3 and 3 goals and assists in his last season with them I think.

Anyway none of this means I don't think we should have signed him. He does bring stuff that maybe Brownie would call nuances that are lost on those daft stats obsessed types, he's calm on the ball (when he isn't losing it) and I think being able to mug off opposing midfielders with such ease again and again probably had like a psychological impact on them which helps us win midfield battles. Similar to how wingers who rinse full backs again and again ens up getting the full back hooked off at half time looking like broken men.

He was an upgrade on our existing midfield and that's mostly what matters so i'm glad we've signed him.

But it's clear he's not going to magically start doing stuff he's never done before, and we're not going to suddenly become a much better side because he has a pre season under his belt. We still need to improve and add stuff our midfield doesn't have at the moment.

Also he's nowhere near as good as arteta but that's OK that's a discussion for another day that we don't need right now.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.