December 14, 2018, 02:56:18 AM

Author Topic: Goodison for Gomes?  (Read 31458 times)

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October 23, 2018, 03:06:42 AM
Reply #270
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Bluedylan


Yeah i get it I just mean, like how robust is it as an observation?

Like - I like how Calvert-Lewis runs, I think he looks smooth in his movements and can accelerate like a sprinter, but none of that is very robust as an observation about why he’s a good player.

I like how Tosun scores different sorts of strikes, but it’s not like a real thing is it. Part of it will be personal bias, part of it will be aesthetics, part of it will be confirmation bias. Put a number on how weighty the pass was out of weightyness and tell me why it’s insightful and I could buy into it, other wise it just feels like nice stylistic fluff.

Not saying it’s not important, just yeah, might not be very tangible.

I get what you're saying yes. I'm not sure it's particularly measurable as a metric, but that's football eh? Some of the most important facets of the game aren't necessarily measurable statistically, which illustrates the limitations of just taking a stats based approach to analysis.
Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.


October 23, 2018, 03:14:10 AM
Reply #271
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brap2

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I get what you're saying yes. I'm not sure it's particularly measurable as a metric, but that's football eh? Some of the most important facets of the game aren't necessarily measurable statistically, which illustrates the limitations of just taking a stats based approach to analysis.

Agree. Think itís actually ruining footy for me a bit to be honest. Iíve become fixated on metrics I barely understand when deep down I just wanna see a few step overs and a big header.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

October 23, 2018, 03:19:24 AM
Reply #272
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Mouse


I thought he just oozed class, he has that arrogant strut around the pitch that leaves you wondering how someone who seems to move so economically seems to be always in the right place. The weight of pass is a very good point as it allows the receiver to let the ball do a lot of the work for him.

But, I have to caution myself, it's very similar to how I saw Schneiderlin's performances when he first arrived. Having said that, given this was his first competitive outing in 6 months, he really impressed and the potential is mind-blowing.

In fairness, I do think comparisons with Davies are unfair to Davies. There are very few 20 year old CM's in their second full season who would stand comparison against a 25 year old good enough to be taken by Barcelona. Davies has time and possibly a much needed role model on his side.


October 23, 2018, 04:19:29 AM
Reply #273
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Tony Clifton


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">🦸‍♂️ | @aftgomes = Clark Kent? We refuse to explain this any other way... 😄</p>&mdash; Everton (@Everton) October 22, 2018
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

October 23, 2018, 03:15:07 PM
Reply #274
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Mick 1995

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Agree. Think itís actually ruining footy for me a bit to be honest. Iíve become fixated on metrics I barely understand when deep down I just wanna see a few step overs and a big header.

I do get that feeling fella. You're journey from "Wow @kramer0 , what are these funky looking diagrams" to "You can't measure it, so it may not be relevant as to whether someone is good" has been clear to those who look out for your posts.

Stats are useful and have their place. Our management team will be elbow deep in them.
For many, many, many things they are vitally important. But as with all statistics, they're fundamentally flawed in isolation.

I love a good heat map though.

October 23, 2018, 03:23:47 PM
Reply #275
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brap2

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I do get that feeling fella. You're journey from "Wow @kramer0 , what are these funky looking diagrams" to "You can't measure it, so it may not be relevant as to whether someone is good" has been clear to those who look out for your posts.

Stats are useful and have their place. Our management team will be elbow deep in them.
For many, many, many things they are vitally important. But as with all statistics, they're fundamentally flawed in isolation.

I love a good heat map though.

Yeah I know it myself mate. Yesterday trying to argue that weight of pass isn’t measurable so should be disregarded just felt like a million miles away from how I enjoy the game as a spectator.

Part of the issue is I think that it’s been very clear Everton actually are not all over this sort of thing, and have been making very costly mistakes. You see this wealth of research and you think - if we are going to take a step forward, it’s going to be by embracing and gaming this kind of information, not disregarding it and signing Davy Klaasen. Absolutely desperate for everton to stop letting me down, and this has felt to me like the answer.

However at the end of the day I’m not massively knowledgeable, I listen to pods and read blogs and a lot of the opinions I’ve formed have played out to be fair, so I do still believe in a lot of it, especially when it passes the eye test but at some point I’ve started giving myself a weird existential crisis and probably doing everyone’s head in on here to boot.

Plus, we signed richarlison despite scorn, because the manager believed in him and his underlying numbers were still very strong. Maybe we’ve turned a corner.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.



October 23, 2018, 03:35:26 PM
Reply #277
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Mick 1995

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Yeah I know it myself mate. Yesterday trying to argue that weight of pass isnít measurable so should be disregarded just felt like a million miles away from how I enjoy the game as a spectator.

Part of the issue is I think that itís been very clear Everton actually are not all over this sort of thing, and have been making very costly mistakes. You see this wealth of research and you think - if we are going to take a step forward, itís going to be by embracing and gaming this kind of information, not disregarding it and signing Davy Klaasen. Absolutely desperate for everton to stop letting me down, and this has felt to me like the answer.

However at the end of the day Iím not massively knowledgeable, I listen to pods and read blogs and a lot of the opinions Iíve formed have played out to be fair, so I do still believe in a lot of it, especially when it passes the eye test but at some point Iíve started giving myself a weird existential crisis and probably doing everyoneís head in on here to boot.

Plus, we signed richarlison despite scorn, because the manager believed in him and his underlying numbers were still very strong. Maybe weíve turned a corner.


I think it's both and that's the main difference between baseball and football - and what a lot of us have said.

The stats, for so many positions, for so many things is crucial.
But there is still a massive place for gut-instinct in the game.

The top clubs in the world have the same data we do and will hoover up the players we need to become a top club.
Our only way forward is either luck of local youth recruitment or a manager/DoF with a "feeling" about a handful of players.


October 23, 2018, 09:21:34 PM
Reply #278
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kramer0


Agree. Think itís actually ruining footy for me a bit to be honest. Iíve become fixated on metrics I barely understand when deep down I just wanna see a few step overs and a big header.

Yeah, it's not supposed to ruin your enjoyment of the game. Without the fun factor, what's the point of watching or following football?

For me, stats make the game better because they get me thinking about what actions on the pitch are truly valuable.

It's the difference between a winger who uses his skill to create separation to play a long cross and a winger who uses his skill to get into the box and shoot or play a shorter pass to an unmarked teammate. The latter is a lot more fun to watch because you can appreciate his technical ability and all of the chances (and, ultimately, goals) he creates.

October 23, 2018, 09:28:04 PM
Reply #279
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Mick 1995

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Yeah, it's not supposed to ruin your enjoyment of the game. Without the fun factor, what's the point of watching or following football?

For me, stats make the game better because they get me thinking about what actions on the pitch are truly valuable.

It's the difference between a winger who uses his skill to create separation to play a long cross and a winger who uses his skill to get into the box and shoot or play a shorter pass to an unmarked teammate. The latter is a lot more fun to watch because you can appreciate his technical ability and all of the chances (and, ultimately, goals) he creates.

It's a good example that. But also to highlight why stats in isolation are no good.
Winger A does the former a lot and has very poor chance creation or even assists. Winger B does the latter and has really high numbers.

Team A has Duncan Ferguson and Tim Cahill in and a load of yard-dogs behind them.
Team B has Bernard up front and Sigurdsson behind him.

Obviously managers of each team are going to buy the correct winger, or try to. Hopefully.

The problem on this side of the fence though, is everybody writes off winger A because of his charts.

October 23, 2018, 10:04:50 PM
Reply #280
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kramer0


It's a good example that. But also to highlight why stats in isolation are no good.
Winger A does the former a lot and has very poor chance creation or even assists. Winger B does the latter and has really high numbers.

Team A has Duncan Ferguson and Tim Cahill in and a load of yard-dogs behind them.
Team B has Bernard up front and Sigurdsson behind him.

Obviously managers of each team are going to buy the correct winger, or try to. Hopefully.

The problem on this side of the fence though, is everybody writes off winger A because of his charts.

I don't see that as an issue. I don't want the lad who's adapted to a shit playing style unless he's young and we have time to re-teach him.

The players we sign should match the way we want to play (or we need have time to mold them into what we want them to be).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 10:06:13 PM by kramer0 »

October 23, 2018, 11:35:52 PM
Reply #281
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Shogun

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Feel like Iíve walked into an intervention here
I'm more trusting of fellas when they have my cock in their mouth

October 24, 2018, 01:19:08 AM
Reply #282
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Evertonian in NC


All things in moderation.  It's a poor idea to dismiss advanced stats entirely, and to make them your sole Gospel.  A blend of statistical analysis and traditional scouting is always the best path, in footy, baseball, NFL, etc.
"If you want a really scary thought, imagine how stupid the average American is.  Then realize...half of 'em are dumber than THAT." - George Carlin

October 24, 2018, 02:46:55 PM
Reply #283
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Mick 1995

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I don't see that as an issue. I don't want the lad who's adapted to a shit playing style unless he's young and we have time to re-teach him.

The players we sign should match the way we want to play (or we need have time to mold them into what we want them to be).

But you're not the sole arbiter if what good football is.

There are many people who love nothing more than a winger skinning a man, getting to the line, whipping it in and some hero of a centre forward thundering it in.

Jesus, we're Everton. That kind of goal is deep-rooted into our DNA. It's amongst the reasons our number 9s have been so revered.

October 24, 2018, 03:36:46 PM
Reply #284
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Jimmywhack

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But you're not the sole arbiter if what good football is.

There are many people who love nothing more than a winger skinning a man, getting to the line, whipping it in and some hero of a centre forward thundering it in.

Jesus, we're Everton. That kind of goal is deep-rooted into our DNA. It's amongst the reasons our number 9s have been so revered.
Not many better sights than a cross slung over and an Everton player climbing over everyone and slamming a header in... Off the bar!!
Simply simply lovely