September 19, 2019, 11:05:55 AM

Author Topic: Goodison for Gomes?  (Read 118738 times)

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March 21, 2019, 01:05:45 AM
Reply #930
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indiantoffee1975


Would take him if he's prepared to be a squad player. Should Gana leave then we are looking at two new players in the midfield birth to start games. Gomes for me is not one of them.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 01:25:01 AM by indiantoffee1975 »


March 21, 2019, 01:40:00 AM
Reply #931
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eyesalwaysblue


Agree with you. I feel people over rate Gomes because he looks classy on the ball whereas Davies is underrated because he looks erratic and clumsy.
Both good players
I still despise Clive Thomas..

March 21, 2019, 03:29:33 AM
Reply #932
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Lxxx


Would take him if he's prepared to be a squad player. Should Gana leave then we are looking at two new players in the midfield birth to start games. Gomes for me is not one of them.

Not sure why you'd be looking to spend 20m+ on someone who you'd be looking at as no more than a squad player. We'll have a hard time this summer trying to offload a number of expensive players who are no more than squad fillers, we don't need another that isn't going to bring the quality we need to push us forward. 


March 21, 2019, 03:43:02 AM
Reply #933
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brap2

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Would you not be looking for someone younger and with a higher ceiling around Europe?

I think he's decent but I don't see him being a difference maker in his position.

Welcome to the party haha.

But yeah I don't really see him as a difference maker and I am very much saying sign him at that price with the proviso that we sign someone else who actually does good stuff, but I think there are some good points to signing him :

You probably could sign someone younger with a higher ceiling for less (billing for example you'd probably get for less than 15), but there's a lot to be said for a player settling into the league and culture of the club. Whatever you can say about Gomes he has settled very well and taken to the club and fans really well. He seems well liked, eg his shoulder bump with Mina after Richarlison goal (if you haven't seen this watch it ASAP ) and in terms of being an ambassador for the club he talks well and seems well regarded.

It can take players up to 2 years to get to that point, so if the price is right and it feels a positive move to the staff and players, and on a personal note frankly he's a very nice player to watch (even if I wish he did more) then I don't mind that. There's bigger mistakes you can make.

Re the statistical argument for Andre gomes - I mean, he's never going to be the player it was thought he could have been, and he's not going to be like a take the game by the scruff of the neck player, but in terms of deep ball progressions per 90 which is a metric used to track effectiveness of midfield players moving the ball up from defensive zones into more impactful ones - he's actually been within the top 20 in Europe's big leagues this season despite not having his best year and playing for a shit side, according to what I've been following, and that is something we've missed since barkley runs and Barry's passing.

If we don't get him I won't be assed because my original prediction was he'd be hounded out by now for being a more handsome but less effective Morgan Schneiderlin, but he's shown enough to me and has a positive enough feeling around the squad to say if the price is right then it won't be a huge mistake.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 03:44:37 AM by brap2 »
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

March 21, 2019, 03:52:26 AM
Reply #934
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brap2

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Not 100% related but it was reported that Richarlison wanted to come because he had a bit of a language problem after Marco left ,it is interesting to see they have built a small group now of Portuguese speaking .I am sure it is no coincidence despite Marco being from Portugal it will help them all bed in easier

A good point worth remembering I think.

Brandsy likes signing South Americans, so does silva, also silva likes a little Portuguese connection so keeping a well liked high profile player that other players are comfortable playing with..

What @Mick 1995 would probably call a side of football that is not measurable by stats.
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

March 21, 2019, 05:36:19 PM
Reply #935
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Mick 1995

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Yeah, absolutely.

Although, i *do* like stats and have just read through the Keane ones you posted.
I'm just very dubious that any stats are any more than a small part of the decision when it comes to bringing players in for reasons exactly like this.

I think that they should play a bigger part in showing a player the door though. Because whilst those other variables that can't be measured exist, i admit they are only temporary and a season worth of metrics is enough to know if a player is going to gel into your system.


March 21, 2019, 06:00:07 PM
Reply #936
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Macca77


It he's available for that price then sign him, simple as that.

March 21, 2019, 06:01:54 PM
Reply #937
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brap2

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Yeah, absolutely.

Although, i *do* like stats and have just read through the Keane ones you posted.
I'm just very dubious that any stats are any more than a small part of the decision when it comes to bringing players in for reasons exactly like this.

I think that they should play a bigger part in showing a player the door though. Because whilst those other variables that can't be measured exist, i admit they are only temporary and a season worth of metrics is enough to know if a player is going to gel into your system.

I know you've your doubts my mate and I'm much more flexible on them these days. Hence why I'm making a case for Andre.

He's a good case study tho right? He looks great, glides about the pitch, brushes people off... But he's 25/26 and now at three clubs of varying sizes and styles he's performed exactly the same way. Lots of dribbles, OK passing, not great creatively or from a goalscoring POV... We got exactly what the stats bods said we would and generally this pans out across players careers.

I know you are of the belief that what a player does on the pitch is mostly dictated by their manager, but when you have several seasons of data you can see stylistic or behavioural patterns that show the players skill set, it's just a fact. Tony Hibbert isn't going to become a multiple player per game dribbler like Dani Alves under pep, in the same way Dani Alves won't be able to do 6 foot slide tackles under Moyes.

Players have abilities and styles and when you know what you need in your side you can recruit someone of that profile and make your recruiting more effective.

If you need to see this in effect please take a look at the league table, or have a look at how the shite are getting on.

Edit: think I've just been having a totally different conversation to you haha sorry mate.

I agree, stats should be a part of the decision not the whole thing. Your eyes, culture fit, personality, age and fitness etc. All important.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 06:04:13 PM by brap2 »
I knew that someday I was going to die, and I knew that before I died, two things would happen to me. That number one; I would regret my entire life, and number two; that I would want to live my life over again.

March 21, 2019, 06:08:12 PM
Reply #938
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Mick 1995

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Haha, i thought we were arguing about something till your edit.

For what it's worth, they have gone up in my estimation this season and i think there are certain decisions made where they are utterly indespensable. To the point where they are amongst the first things i check when linked to a player now.
I still haven't moved from my rigid "Football isn't Baseball" stance though.

March 21, 2019, 06:17:20 PM
Reply #939
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TheRam

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T0 many variables in football for stats to be 100% conclusive, but you're well behind the curve if you dont take them into consideration.

Are there any examples of moneyball type situations in football being successful?

Brentford maybe?
Hey there mister can you tell me what happened to the seeds I've sown
Can you give me a reason sir as to why they've never grown

March 21, 2019, 07:12:45 PM
Reply #940
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Crackling

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He reminds me a bit of Moussa Dembele from Spurs.
Big, strong, technically superb, good dribbler, takes the ball under pressure.....doesn't score or assist many.

I think most people on here would have been happy if we had signed Dembele in his mid 20s.

I'd love to see him sign permanently.

March 21, 2019, 07:19:56 PM
Reply #941
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Macca77



March 21, 2019, 07:30:00 PM
Reply #942
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Gary1878

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stats don't tell you much, if anything about effectiveness off the ball, such as intelligence of forward runs, making space, defensive positioning etc, so it's impossible to just use stats alone. However, they do help a lot in terms of effectiveness on it, such as passing %, goals, assists etc.

I do think a lot of our players have underperformed this season, and expect better next season. They should have all bedded in properly, and had a lot more stability to push on.

March 21, 2019, 07:38:42 PM
Reply #943
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Jimmywhack

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He reminds me a bit of Moussa Dembele from Spurs.
Big, strong, technically superb, good dribbler, takes the ball under pressure.....doesn't score or assist many.

I think most people on here would have been happy if we had signed Dembele in his mid 20s.

I'd love to see him sign permanently.
Funny you say that as Spurs are linked with him now
Simply simply lovely

March 21, 2019, 07:45:35 PM
Reply #944
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TheRam

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Hey there mister can you tell me what happened to the seeds I've sown
Can you give me a reason sir as to why they've never grown