November 17, 2018, 01:49:54 AM

Author Topic: Attacking Set Pieces  (Read 1322 times)

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November 07, 2018, 12:50:04 AM
Reply #15
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piggypop

NSNO Subscriber
Find it a bit strange how stale the free kicks have been recently.

Remember the goal in the first game of the season from a free kick straight from the training ground? I assumed Silva was someone who worked hard on them during the week but since then it's mainly been Sig hammering them into the wall!!
Seem to remember we tried something in the first half against Brighton. Right hand side of the box.
It just didn't work.


November 07, 2018, 02:02:27 AM
Reply #16
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wepull


Well, some managers pride themselves on their teams being potent from set piece scenarios. These scenarios represent a small portion of the game, and even the best set piece specialists only convert at a very low percentage. So, spending too much time perfecting set plays can be seen as being counter-productive to practising open play scenarios, which represent the majority of the game. So whilst it isn't an "either or" situation you do have to prioritise based on the finite time available for training. Set plays will, and should always be down the priority order.
Football is a low percentage game when it comes to goal scoring. Also a team works very hard to get a dead ball situation in the other half. So although I don't think it's ideal to base your strategy on dead ball situations, ignoring it or keeping it down the priority order is just plain foolishness.

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November 07, 2018, 02:09:28 AM
Reply #17
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Jamokachi


Totally disagree with Jamockachi point of view regarding set pieces....teams actually train to win set peices if play breaks down when they're on the attack believe it or not as they see it as a means to: regain possession....keep posession and have an attempt on goal..so it is part of a game plan....

But training to win set pieces is exactly what I've said, training open play routines, which is where winning set pieces usually comes from.

Look, I'm not saying we shouldn't practice them, and it would be nice to score from them (I love a headed goal from a corner), but we shouldn't worry about being reliant on them as that indicates a weakness from general open play. In the 90s we were boss at set pieces, but we were mainly shite at everything else. I know which scenario I prefer.


November 07, 2018, 02:12:25 AM
Reply #18
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Jamokachi


A well-designed set play routine is near-impossible defend. They're an easy source of goals for teams willing to invest the time in them.

It's just simply not the case that they're an easy source of goals though. Very few set plays are converted, across the board, not just us.

November 07, 2018, 02:14:49 AM
Reply #19
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Jamokachi


Football is a low percentage game when it comes to goal scoring. Also a team works very hard to get a dead ball situation in the other half. So although I don't think it's ideal to base your strategy on dead ball situations, ignoring it or keeping it down the priority order is just plain foolishness.

Point to where I said "ignore"? We have a set number of hours per week for training, therefore some things have to take priority. Open play scenarios have to be priority over set-plays. Or shall we get Allardyce back in? That was good football wasn't it?!

November 07, 2018, 02:56:10 AM
Reply #20
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Lxxx


Point to where I said "ignore"? We have a set number of hours per week for training, therefore some things have to take priority. Open play scenarios have to be priority over set-plays. Or shall we get Allardyce back in? That was good football wasn't it?!

Do we only have a set number of hours a week? Did we have a set number of hours the week before the Southampton game, where we clearly worked on a free kick routine which ended up with a goal? I wonder which one of our open play sessions we had to sacrifice that week in order to perfect a well drilled routine.


November 07, 2018, 03:34:38 AM
Reply #21
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kramer0


Very few set plays are converted, across the board, not just us.

Sure. But is that because they're fundamentally inefficient or because most teams aren't very good at them?

There's some evidence that spending a little extra time working on set piece routines can pay big attacking dividends. It's the only time where the movement of your players can be perfectly choreographed and where one of your players can deliver the ball into the box without any pressure on him (unless you take a short corner or something like that, although you can still control defensive pressure some in these situations).

Atletico Madrid are probably the best example of a club that used this strategy to achieve success beyond its budget but it's also worth noting that timely set piece goals (usually from Ramos) were a major player in Real's CL success under Zidane. They're not just for Pulis or Allardyce teams.

https://13steps.co/2015/01/30/diego-simeones-atletico-corner-analysis/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2018/06/20/why-set-pieces-are-dominating-scoring-so-far-at-the-world-cup/?utm_term=.3ad8e2c178c7

https://statsbomb.com/2018/08/i-think-we-broke-denmark/

November 07, 2018, 03:43:12 AM
Reply #22
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Lxxx


Out of Spurs’ last 21 goals conceded 7 were from headers. PSV has a well worked corner routine (front load and attack the near post and leave your best header of the ball at the back stick). Two minutes in they’re 1-0 up.

A good coach will assess their next opponent, look for a weakness and work on exploiting it. If that’s set pieces then so be it.

November 07, 2018, 04:31:42 AM
Reply #23
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Jamokachi


Sure. But is that because they're fundamentally inefficient or because most teams aren't very good at them?

There's some evidence that spending a little extra time working on set piece routines can pay big attacking dividends. It's the only time where the movement of your players can be perfectly choreographed and where one of your players can deliver the ball into the box without any pressure on him (unless you take a short corner or something like that, although you can still control defensive pressure some in these situations).

Atletico Madrid are probably the best example of a club that used this strategy to achieve success beyond its budget but it's also worth noting that timely set piece goals (usually from Ramos) were a major player in Real's CL success under Zidane. They're not just for Pulis or Allardyce teams.

Like I say, practice them by all means, but they should never take away from the priority of open play scenarios. That's my argument. And I think people think we're bad at them now because we used to be good, but there is a correlation between being reliant on set plays and being dire at the rest of the game (see the 1990s).

Are Real just fortunate in that they have an absolute beast of a player for those scenarios in Ramos, as well as gifted individuals adept at dead ball delivery (rather than actually drilling and drilling)?

November 07, 2018, 04:35:21 AM
Reply #24
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Jamokachi


Do we only have a set number of hours a week? Did we have a set number of hours the week before the Southampton game, where we clearly worked on a free kick routine which ended up with a goal? I wonder which one of our open play sessions we had to sacrifice that week in order to perfect a well drilled routine.

Of course we do. We can't magic hours out of nowhere. Everyone has a set number of hours, it's how time works. Practicing set plays will be done, nowhere am I saying it won't. I'm saying it's not a priority (as it would have been when we had Hinchcliffe and Ferguson for example).

November 07, 2018, 02:56:29 PM
Reply #25
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Lxxx


Of course we do. We can't magic hours out of nowhere. Everyone has a set number of hours, it's how time works. Practicing set plays will be done, nowhere am I saying it won't. I'm saying it's not a priority (as it would have been when we had Hinchcliffe and Ferguson for example).

Of course you can do a double session if the need dictates. If there's something you want to specifically work on in preparation for an upcoming game, be it set pieces or a specific passage of play you want to focus on or even to sharpen fitness then you'll get the players back in for an afternoon session. Which is how I assume we worked on the set piece routine for the Southampton game which worked so well.

Anyway we digress, attacking set pieces have been poor of late and with the extra quality we now have in the side we should maybe mix it up a little.

November 07, 2018, 04:24:38 PM
Reply #26
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mikey_blue


I say get Garbutt in the team.

November 07, 2018, 07:28:49 PM
Reply #27
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Goaljira

NSNO Subscriber
I don't understand how we haven't seen team attempt to replicate the England setpiece model from the summer?
My momma says I'm special.

November 07, 2018, 07:36:48 PM
Reply #28
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Martip


I don't understand how we haven't seen team attempt to replicate the England setpiece model from the summer?
I thought the same tbh

November 07, 2018, 11:36:01 PM
Reply #29
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Ross


Pretty sure there’s something on those Man City amazon docs that show Guardiola lecturing the importance of set plays and making them count and then later on it shows Kompany scoring against a big rival.

We definitely should be making the more of them, especially Keane and Zouma who’ve sent a number of free headers high or wide.
There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.