December 12, 2018, 06:46:25 PM

Author Topic: Expectations shift?  (Read 4426 times)

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November 27, 2018, 07:03:19 PM
Reply #105
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Gary1878


Think the only reason we'll do it this season is more down to United being in a mess, obviously we've improved too

That top 4 in 04/05 with the squad we had and being the first team to break it was a bigger achievement imo

Where do you start?.. Hibbert, 2 old cbs, kilbane on the wing, no options off the bench. Miracle from us that season, the redshite had to top it though ofcourse.

I would go as far to say that it's probably one of the best "teams" that the Premier League has had. It was in very similar vain to what Leicester did, (albeit not title winning). You look at the players we had and it's unbelievable what was achieved with very little.


November 27, 2018, 07:11:20 PM
Reply #106
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Toddacelli


12 months later somebody did beat that United team to the league though?

If you see football through the prism of the premier league i can see why dominance = permanence. But it never used to be that way. Teams only tended to have half a dozen years (max) at the top. Then would fade away.
It was a cyclical thing that always happened.
Then the premier league happened. When Blackburn won that league title and we won the FA cup - we ABSOLUTELY were touted as dark horses to win the league in the 95/96 season.

It was feasible, a long-shot, but wouldn't have shocked the world (like, say Leicester).
Exactly like us finishing 6th this season. (or 4th when we did).

What has changed is that a little mini-league has formed and it is now inconceivable to people that anybody outside of that would break it apart.
Except when they have done (Chelsea, then City, then Spurs) they have just been assumed to have permanence at that top table and the mini-league has grown.

Yeah - I don't think you get the point I'm making. I agree mostly with the second point you make and born in the 70's and season ticket holder in the 80's I certainly don't view football through the prism of the EPL.

What I was pointing out is that people say things like "It's much harder now" and "finishing 6th today is the same as being able to win the league 25 years ago"

It's not much harder now. It may, possibly, be a little harder but if so then I would say only imperceptibly. And having a squad who could hit 6th this season does not mean that same squad would have won the league 25 years ago.

Whatever year it is - if you are 6th - there are 5 teams better than you. It may be harder to compete in terms of transfers, money, sponsorship, whatever - I agree with that point - I just want to be clear that a 6th place team in 2018 is not good enough to win the league 25 years ago and that is what you seemed to be saying.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
    

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November 27, 2018, 07:14:02 PM
Reply #107
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Gary1878


There is no point in trying to argue whether it's more difficult in one era than another. The fact is that they are a completely different set of conditions and challenges.

Beating Fergie's United 25 years ago is not the same challenge as trying to beat Jose's United and a transitioning Arsenal team into the top 6.

There is no doubt though that squads are much larger now, with rules a lot stricter in terms of tackling and fouls, which does lend itself to the status quo being maintained.

We need to look forward, build slowly, and have long term goals in mind. I really think we have the right manager and director now on board to take us up a level, and the squad has been almost completely overhauled in the space of 1 transfer window.

Our first target should be to compete with Arsenal. They are there for the taking over the next few years, and will have a similar transfer budget to us. They will also struggle to get Champions League football again for a while, so players wise, we should also be competing for the same level of players.

Play the transfer market well and some good coaching will allow us to get very close to the top 6 within the next 2-3 years.



November 27, 2018, 07:51:30 PM
Reply #108
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Mick 1995

NSNO Subscriber
Yeah - I don't think you get the point I'm making. I agree mostly with the second point you make and born in the 70's and season ticket holder in the 80's I certainly don't view football through the prism of the EPL.

What I was pointing out is that people say things like "It's much harder now" and "finishing 6th today is the same as being able to win the league 25 years ago"

It's not much harder now. It may, possibly, be a little harder but if so then I would say only imperceptibly. And having a squad who could hit 6th this season does not mean that same squad would have won the league 25 years ago.

Whatever year it is - if you are 6th - there are 5 teams better than you. It may be harder to compete in terms of transfers, money, sponsorship, whatever - I agree with that point - I just want to be clear that a 6th place team in 2018 is not good enough to win the league 25 years ago and that is what you seemed to be saying.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Think we're both missing each others point a little bit here.

I didn't get onto you talking about easier/harder based on how good a team is. I do agree, it's all relative.

But i wasn't saying the same squad capable of getting 6th today could win the league back then.
I'm saying the chance of building a squad that is "capable" of achieving these feats is what is the same.

November 27, 2018, 09:41:05 PM
Reply #109
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D15TIN


I would go as far to say that it's probably one of the best "teams" that the Premier League has had. It was in very similar vain to what Leicester did, (albeit not title winning). You look at the players we had and it's unbelievable what was achieved with very little.
Definitely one of the biggest achievements in the PL - think we had the best dressing room that season, players giving everything every week, won a lot of games 1-0, a lot of late winners that season

November 28, 2018, 03:58:30 AM
Reply #110
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Bluedylan


One thing is that we've dropped a few points that we should have this season based on the games played, and I don't think we've picked up any points that we haven't deserved.

Should've beaten Wolves and Bournemouth (4pts dropped), arguably deserved at least a draw at Arsenal (1pt dropped). People could maybe argue we were unlucky against Utd, and West Ham/Huddersfield results didn't reflect the game.

But even with those extra 5 points from Wolves/Bournemouth/Arsenal, we'd be on 27 points, ahead of Arsenal and only 3 points behind Spurs in third.

So it is very fine margins.
Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.


November 28, 2018, 04:21:16 AM
Reply #111
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Ell Capitan

NSNO Subscriber
One thing is that we've dropped a few points that we should have this season based on the games played, and I don't think we've picked up any points that we haven't deserved.

Should've beaten Wolves and Bournemouth (4pts dropped), arguably deserved at least a draw at Arsenal (1pt dropped). People could maybe argue we were unlucky against Utd, and West Ham/Huddersfield results didn't reflect the game.

But even with those extra 5 points from Wolves/Bournemouth/Arsenal, we'd be on 27 points, ahead of Arsenal and only 3 points behind Spurs in third.

So it is very fine margins.

Agree with that though another way of looking at it is we've had a fair share of good luck at times, not sure if you'd say that's been counterbalanced by the same degree of bad luck.

Like with Palace missing a pen that would've had us 1-0 down, we then go on to score in the last minutes to get the win. Or just this weekend the ref not giving what seemed a pen against Coleman to me.  Think Mina got a bit lucky not to give away a pen for a foul on Morata against Chelsea too.

November 28, 2018, 05:25:50 AM
Reply #112
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Bluedylan


Agree with that though another way of looking at it is we've had a fair share of good luck at times, not sure if you'd say that's been counterbalanced by the same degree of bad luck.

Like with Palace missing a pen that would've had us 1-0 down, we then go on to score in the last minutes to get the win. Or just this weekend the ref not giving what seemed a pen against Coleman to me.  Think Mina got a bit lucky not to give away a pen for a foul on Morata against Chelsea too.

Yeah, good points there. Just to extend the conversation slightly further, I'd say Jags shouldn't have been sent off. Richarlison was sent off (rightly or wrongly) for something that lots of other players haven't been sent off for. Martial's penalty was a good tackle, Smalling should've been sent off, Lacazette's goal was miles offside, Jorginho should've been sent off, Alonso probably should've been sent off.

I'd also say Pickford saving a penalty isn't necessarily luck (but I do see what you mean that it could've gone in and changed that game).

In terms of things that are in our control that we could've done better, Bernard's tripped over his own feet twice with gilt edged chances, Walcott's missed a few sitters/miscontrolled good chances.

I'd say overall, we've probably got less points than we should have, given the performances and the way the games have gone. Even our worst performances against West Ham and Huddersfield, we probably still should've beat Huddersfield on balance, and West Ham scored 3 out of 4 attempts on goal, and we had 16 attempts.

I suppose what I'm saying is that we're right in the mix for Top 6 if we maintain and hopefully improve our performances across the season. If we could add a quality striker, I think it's do-able.
Jeff: That's not the way to win.
Kathie: Is there a way to win?
Jeff: There's a way to lose more slowly.

November 28, 2018, 01:57:09 PM
Reply #113
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Toddacelli


Think we're both missing each others point a little bit here.

I didn't get onto you talking about easier/harder based on how good a team is. I do agree, it's all relative.

But i wasn't saying the same squad capable of getting 6th today could win the league back then.
I'm saying the chance of building a squad that is "capable" of achieving these feats is what is the same.

I agree.

There are some people who like to chuck out soundbites or repeat things they've heard and don't always get it right or even get the meaning behind it.

I can see now you weren't doing that. It was definitely more open to a wider amount of teams back in the day as the financials were more closely matched and less important.
    

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November 29, 2018, 06:06:23 PM
Reply #114
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Mayor Farnum


 I think of you finish 6th three years running in the current climate the five teams above you would be the same teams all though not necessarily in the same order.
 If you finished 6th in the last three years before the start of the Premier League there would be a couple of the same teams but also teams that came from nowhere to get towards the very top of the league.
 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 06:08:02 PM by Mayor Farnum »

November 29, 2018, 07:10:42 PM
Reply #115
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Toddacelli


I think of you finish 6th three years running in the current climate the five teams above you would be the same teams all though not necessarily in the same order.
 If you finished 6th in the last three years before the start of the Premier League there would be a couple of the same teams but also teams that came from nowhere to get towards the very top of the league.
 

Yep. But it's important not to think that this means the standard of football is better - just that the amount of teams who can attract and pay for the very top players is smaller and made up by a certain select few.
    

I'm only here for the cladding/Bramley Moore Dock updates

November 29, 2018, 07:16:18 PM
Reply #116
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Mayor Farnum


Yep. But it's important not to think that this means the standard of football is better - just that the amount of teams who can attract and pay for the very top players is smaller and made up by a certain select few.

Absolutely. Also it's less likely that two of the regular top 4/6 teams will trade players. Whereas pre-Premier League if you had a good season and finished high in the league your best players would be bought by the established top teams. That contributed to a couple of teams being strong yet the top 6/7 having a different look to it every couple of years.