David Moyes

[sam of the south]

Wonder what it is that prevents us from putting together counters? Surely not JUST pace?

Could do with moyesy working on this. We do look extremely disconnected on the break.

Mad when you watch a good side, when they break everything speeds up, pass pass pass and they're through, bouncing passes off deep midfielders or knocking it between opposition players to create the angle and then then BAM vertical go go go.

Watch us and it's just....can we hit Barry from 50 yards? Can Charly carry it by himself? A Moyes issue this for me.

Brentford looked superb on the counter against Bournemouth.

Yeah, I know they have pace, but their passing and moving into space were also slick.

It looked coached and by design, but maybe that’s just me.

[Bumble]

Don’t see him gesturing for the players to get up the pitch once we are breaking. Almost as if he assumes every break will come to nothing so doesn’t want to expose ourselves at the back on a quick turnaround.

[brap2]

Shouldn't have to gesture!

There should be established patterns of play. There isn't tho.

[TheRam]

I think there are patterns of play, especially when we have our best team out there.

Biggest issue is the defence when it comes to playing from the back.

None of them can play forward quickly.

Mykolenko is just awful on the ball.

Obrien is uncomfortable in that position

Keane and tarkowski too slow on the ball.

Then you have garner infront of them who can not see a quick forward pass for anything.

The amount of times I see him picking the ball up in space, running forward then eventually turning back is grim.

We just have a really slow team and moyes is getting the best out of it by wanting us to get the ball on the deck and work the opposition around the pitch.

It’s worked for the most part. Now we’re in the trenches with the players we have out and the ones coming into replace.

Gotta slog through, picking up a decent amount of points.

[AjaxAndy]

The manager not taking any responsibility for this no?

There are other ways to counter than run fast or hot a target man.

Nah, you look at teams that counter effectively and they all have pace and someone fantastic at holding the ball up as their striker.

There's no coincidence that Forest under Nuno we're so effective as they had Wood as the target man and Elanga and CHO breaking at rapid pace in to the available spaces.

If you want to counter effectively you have to get up the pitch quickly and exploit the spaces available that aren't usually there in normal transitions of play. We don't have either of the required components to do this.

[brap2]

Nah, you look at teams that counter effectively and they all have pace and someone fantastic at holding the ball up as their striker.

There's no coincidence that Forest under Nuno we're so effective as they had Wood as the target man and Elanga and CHO breaking at rapid pace in to the available spaces.

If you want to counter effectively you have to get up the pitch quickly and exploit the spaces available that aren't usually there in normal transitions of play. We don't have either of the required components to do this.

Overly simplistic view I'm afraid. Fast player go brrr.

Coach needs to coach some attacking patterns and phases of play rather than relying on Grealish and Ndiaye iso ball.

[AjaxAndy]

Overly simplistic view I'm afraid. Fast player go brrr.

Coach needs to coach some attacking patterns and phases of play rather than relying on Grealish and Ndiaye iso ball.

It's not though, it's just basic facts.

We bought a bunch of ball carries in the hope of finding a way up the pitch that isn't long balls or intricate passing, but counter attacking football is all about exploiting the spaces that aren't ordinarily there in normal phases of play.

You chose to pick out the part about fast players as an over simplification, but it's just how counter attacking play works. How else do you rapidly exploit space other than hit players quickly in those areas that are able to drive forward quicker than the defenders trying to recover their position?

Modern football with rigid defensive shapes means that usually 10 players inc the keeper are all behind the ball or level with it. So when you gain possession intricate passing is extremely tough because the pitch in that area is very congested. So you have to move the ball quickly and directly in to where the space is, but unless you have pace this isn't possible because the defence can regain their position losing you any advantage you may have briefly had.

You can counter without a target man but it makes it harder as every time you have to hit the wingers breaking forward at pace, whereas a good target man can take the ball and lay it off in to the spaces vacated by the other team, but it's unbelievably difficult with a target man and no pace as the space disappears the moment the defence regain their shape. We don't have either so therefore it's not something we'll be able to do effectively.

There's no over simplification in that, it's just how counter attacking football works, or in our case won't work.

[brap2]

Please stop with the Football Manager stuff, watching you explain stuff like this makes it difficult for me to enjoy this site without activating my cringe reflex.

[Cantoffee]

Can't just be pace though.

United are way ahead of everyone in counters and their front players are Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha, Amed.

All have some pace but none that quick, on balance e quicker than our front 4 but not much.

Has to be how we are coached, I think there's too much of our fullbacks not getting forward quickly but not sure what else.

Pace would definitely help, and all of our attacking players come short to receive the ball way more than they run in behind.

I always thought Moyes teams played well on the counter but honestly did not watch his West Ham team much.

[AjaxAndy]

Please stop with the Football Manager stuff, watching you explain stuff like this makes it difficult for me to enjoy this site without activating my cringe reflex.

I don't play football manager, but if you have some actual counter arguments tell me them.

Going 'blah blah blah not listening' just make it look like you don't actually understand anything and don't want to listen to a different opinion to your own.

[brap2]

Honestly mate, at some point in the last 12 - 18 months you've sipped your own koolaid and become at times insufferable with this tactico nonsense.

Like what you're saying isn't even wrong it's just...the most obvious take you can have presented as something insightful.

Yes you do need pace to get up the pitch, yes we do lack pace, yes you do need a good target man, I would argue Barry has done well here given the type of football we've played to him, but like...do you think anyone on this board or who has ever even watched football would disagree with that understanding? To present it as the definitive answer and then say 'hmmm elementary!' it's hard to continue convos in that vein tbh.

[AjaxAndy]

Honestly mate, at some point in the last 12 - 18 months you've sipped your own koolaid and become at times insufferable with this tactico nonsense.

Like what you're saying isn't even wrong it's just...the most obvious take you can have presented as something insightful.

Yes you do need pace to get up the pitch, yes we do lack pace, yes you do need a good target man, I would argue Barry has done well here given the type of football we've played to him, but like...do you think anyone on this board or who has ever even watched football would disagree with that understanding? To present it as the definitive answer and then say 'hmmm elementary!' it's hard to continue convos in that vein tbh.

So what's the opposing viewpoint then?

You asked a question and your only insight was 'coach them phases of play' which means absolutely nothing.

The thing is instead of giving some sort of alternative view or insight you just turn it around as an attack on the person replying. It's fine if you don't have anything to add, but also what's the point in asking a question if your only response is to accuse someone of over simplifying something and then complain.when they've expanded on the point to show they understand what they're saying?

I know your whole personality on here in recent times is lazy trolling and attempting to be a banter king, but honestly what are you hoping to achieve here?

'too simple', 'ahh too much explanation', 'stating the obvious', these replies don't mean anything. Why not put some effort in to your posts? You seem to think counter attacking can be achieved in a different way, that was the whole point of your post, so explain how instead of just attacking the person who responded with actual information.

Or just lazy troll and bants... Up to you, not really arsed either way as don't actually think you have anything other than the latter to offer.

[brap2]

So what's the opposing viewpoint then?

You asked a question and your only insight was 'coach them phases of play' which means absolutely nothing.

The thing is instead of giving some sort of alternative view or insight you just turn it around as an attack on the person replying. It's fine if you don't have anything to add, but also what's the point in asking a question if your only response is to accuse someone of over simplifying something and then complain.when they've expanded on the point to show they understand what they're saying?

I know your whole personality on here in recent times is lazy trolling and attempting to be a banter king, but honestly what are you hoping to achieve here?

'too simple', 'ahh too much explanation', 'stating the obvious', these replies don't mean anything. Why not put some effort in to your posts? You seem to think counter attacking can be achieved in a different way, that was the whole point of your post, so explain how instead of just attacking the person who responded with actual information.

Or just lazy troll and bants... Up to you, not really arsed either way as don't actually think you have anything other than the latter to offer.

Wellll yeah ok, you got me in that I don't really have a solution. My original post was the opposing view - I think this is a Moyes issue.

I think it is to do with coaching attacking phases of play - no we don't actively play for breaks, but those scenarios do present themselves during the game and we end up in situations like we've seen in the last few games - someone carries the ball solo then makes the wrong choice, usually because there's nobody near them.

We've also seen articles recently talking about how Barry played for Valencia, fast breaks with a finish applied in the box, and how our inability to play in that way is probably hampering him.

I also think that the style of play, the way we're playing - it feels like a half way house. I don't think it's getting the most out of Barry, Beto or Ndiaye, and I think it's very reliant on Grealish having the ball in that specific part of the pitch, without explicit instructions for runs around him.

I think this is more conducive to conversation than - no pace no target man (?), no way to create that end of. Not saying that's not part of it! But it's not the whole answer surely.

Look at what Ram has said about the CBs playing forward. We've lost branthwaite who one of his strengths is stepping up the pitch on the ball - this breaks shapes. Carry the ball into the middle of the pitch and you disrupt shapes. Also none of them groks can pass, so building up is difficult.

Look at the CMs, can they play quicker? Can they get the ball into someone's feet quicker rather than rolling it back to the CBs to launch?

You say there's no target man...how would you describe the football we are playing at the moment? How do you see how we are utilising Thierno Barry? For what reason is theirno Barry currently winning more headed duels than 91% of forward players in the top 5 leagues? How many counter attacks start with a lifted pass from a CB Vs playing through the lines?

So yeah, I think looking to discuss the football we are playing is better than what I consider to be an over simplification of - need new player.

[brap2]

You were right about KDH however.

[AjaxAndy]

Wellll yeah ok, you got me in that I don't really have a solution. My original post was the opposing view - I think this is a Moyes issue.

I think it is to do with coaching attacking phases of play - no we don't actively play for breaks, but those scenarios do present themselves during the game and we end up in situations like we've seen in the last few games - someone carries the ball solo then makes the wrong choice, usually because there's nobody near them.

We've also seen articles recently talking about how Barry played for Valencia, fast breaks with a finish applied in the box, and how our inability to play in that way is probably hampering him.

I also think that the style of play, the way we're playing - it feels like a half way house. I don't think it's getting the most out of Barry, Beto or Ndiaye, and I think it's very reliant on Grealish having the ball in that specific part of the pitch, without explicit instructions for runs around him.

I think this is more conducive to conversation than - no pace no target man (?), no way to create that end of. Not saying that's not part of it! But it's not the whole answer surely.

Look at what Ram has said about the CBs playing forward. We've lost branthwaite who one of his strengths is stepping up the pitch on the ball - this breaks shapes. Carry the ball into the middle of the pitch and you disrupt shapes. Also none of them groks can pass, so building up is difficult.

Look at the CMs, can they play quicker? Can they get the ball into someone's feet quicker rather than rolling it back to the CBs to launch?

You say there's no target man...how would you describe the football we are playing at the moment? How do you see how we are utilising Thierno Barry? For what reason is theirno Barry currently winning more headed duels than 91% of forward players in the top 5 leagues? How many counter attacks start with a lifted pass from a CB Vs playing through the lines?

So yeah, I think looking to discuss the football we are playing is better than what I consider to be an over simplification of - need new player.

Fair enough, don't really disagree with any of that.

Also can't really accuse you of certain things then going off on one and doing the thing I say you do, so apologies for that.

To keep things short and bite sized, I think we use Barry as a target man but I don't think he's a good one, not compared to the likes of Mateta and Wood whose teams thrive off their hold up play. Hold up play is key as opposed to winning flick ones imo to counter attacking.

The poor decisions and ball hogging or over reliance on Grealish are squad structure issues over coaching problems imo, we just have a dysfunctional squad, but the halfway house point is very valid.

We can neither counter effectively nor build effectively and maybe there's ways to paper over that but I still feel we need pace and a better hold up target man to effectively counter, and Branthwaite plus 2 new full backs to build attacks effectively.

Until then we'll be stuck in the hallway house, which will work against some opponents and be exposed against others.