David Moyes

[blueToffee]

Wonder what it is that prevents us from putting together counters? Surely not JUST pace?

Could do with moyesy working on this. We do look extremely disconnected on the break.

Mad when you watch a good side, when they break everything speeds up, pass pass pass and they're through, bouncing passes off deep midfielders or knocking it between opposition players to create the angle and then then BAM vertical go go go.

Watch us and it's just....can we hit Barry from 50 yards? Can Charly carry it by himself? A Moyes issue this for me.

Am I reading the scale correctly? Man United are counter attacking on average 1 and a half times per game? And they’re the standout stat? That doesn’t seem super significant. It would seem to suggest perhaps most teams are set up to avoid that scenario?

The more troubling stat is just the shots on target one. In Man United’s case I’m not too surprised as they have lots of players who like to take a pop from distance, I suspect that skews things a little bit. I’d still say that was more of an issue though.

Overall though, we’re playing a different way and for the most part it works when people are fit at least. Could we be coached to do it more, sure, but whether it’s speed of thought or speed of feet those things are not really our forte right now. See Rohl running forward the other day and wondering where everyone else was. With only about half the teams breaking 1 counter attack per game average it doesn’t seem a super huge factor right now, even if we could improve in that area. As long as I’m reading that graph correctly.

[The Doc]

Pace is the main ingredient to counters to be fair. More to it than legging it, but can't counter with slow pokes.

[Cods]

Wonder what it is that prevents us from putting together counters? Surely not JUST pace?

Could do with moyesy working on this. We do look extremely disconnected on the break.

Mad when you watch a good side, when they break everything speeds up, pass pass pass and they're through, bouncing passes off deep midfielders or knocking it between opposition players to create the angle and then then BAM vertical go go go.

Watch us and it's just....can we hit Barry from 50 yards? Can Charly carry it by himself? A Moyes issue this for me.

Very much agree we are largely disjointed in attack when on the break.

The only comparison I can make with other sides is that of highlights packages other teams appear to have better passages of play, but then again you also see the ones they muck up too.

We are actually improved on last season. You do see glimpses where it works, we are better with the ball than we've been, but I think it's too 'Football Manager' to expect considerable change when you're working with limited, risk-averse players who have been playing a particular style for so long.

It will be partly to do with pace and stamina and numbers we commit forward. We do just use Grealish as a cheat code to help us get up the pitch, and allow others to move up and play as he keeps hold of it (especially when we don't have a full squad) but risk getting countered ourselves with an exposed backline.

Not sure blaming Moyes is appropriate yet, he's working to get the best out of what he's got (slower, limited (except Grealish) technical footballers). Things are moving slowly in a positive direction. We're not going to rip up the song sheet and go all Iraola, when Moyes and Dyche aren't massively different in approach.

[Cods]

Re the graph:

West Ham, Bournemouth, Brighton, Forest, Leeds all 'above' us in that chart on both metrics, but below us in the table.

Man City, Arsenal, Man United have less than double our shots on target per 90,... well, yeah that seems about right.

[brap2]

Well that's that then I suppose

[Risky]

That late breakaway against Arsenal still haunts me tbh. Rohl I think on the ball, Beto in support, then everyone else seemingly just casually jogging out 20 yards behind. Nothing to do with a lack of pace and genuinely one of the most bizarre moments I've seen watching us over the years, really didn't understand what was happening in that moment.

[Cods]

Well that's that then I suppose

Not at all, just different takes.

I'm not sure how we improve it more quickly (not being completely facetious, but if I chuck in a 'tbh' does that make my opinion seem less conclusive? Always wondered what that adds...)

When players press, break and in what situation definitely needs work... thought I saw a player with hands up above head twice, in the same game as if to say "what are you doing?" Iliman did this a few weeks back too. So I think there is work going on behind the scenes but maybe not being 100% understood.

We tend not to see this work in their youtube training videos so who knows how the implementation or the uptake is going. Proof in pudding though, needs work.

We're also comparing in some cases to squads that have been settled and together for some time, often when we've had changes (no KDH/Grealish)... the difference with first team to next level down is noticeable. Lineup strength and lineup consistency come into that, not sure we've had the latter compared to most...and we've not been as good when we've not been able to play the first XI.

You maybe would think a year in we'd be better in this department.

Are patterns of play opposition-dependent, or would 90% of our forward interplay be the case irrespective of who we play I wonder?

[Big Nevs Vaz]

Half way point in the season with 28 points. 14 above the bottom 3 and a few points off a European spot. Moyes has exceeded all my expectations. It will be interesting to see if we can hold it or even kick on. Beat Brentford at the weekend and we are looking very healthy again.

[blueToffee]

Dare I say our counter attacking looked a bit better tonight too? Didn't always come off, in part as some of them looked a bit gassed but looked more positive.

[Risky]

Dare I say our counter attacking looked a bit better tonight too? Didn't always come off, in part as some of them looked a bit gassed but looked more positive.

At the very least the counter attacking intent was clearly there, which was something lacking in recent games.

[Silas]

Didn't want the fella, but he's doing a superb job isn't he?

[dazfrancis]

You have to respect the job he is doing improving the current squad of players. You would have seriously worried about a midfield of Garner and Tim while AFCON was on but but they've generally been great together.

If he can help develop Dibling and Barry, give JOB more time at CB then we have a the makings of a good young spine of squad

The guy is even getting a tune out of Michael Keane FFS.

His tactics may be a bit rudimentary for modern football but he excels at getting consistent PL level performances out of players.

We will be in a much better position squad wise when he passes on the reins to the next manager

[AjaxAndy]

59 points in calendar year... Since Moyes left in 2013 we've only achieved that once until he came back. I think that shows the impact he's had especially given he's not had the working conditions some of those previously had over that period.

[Shogun]

You have to respect the job he is doing improving the current squad of players. You would have seriously worried about a midfield of Garner and Tim while AFCON was on but but they've generally been great together.

If he can help develop Dibling and Barry, give JOB more time at CB then we have a the makings of a good young spine of squad

The guy is even getting a tune out of Michael Keane FFS.

His tactics may be a bit rudimentary for modern football but he excels at getting consistent PL level performances out of players.

We will be in a much better position squad wise when he passes on the reins to the next manager

Tbh after some of the managers we've had (namely Allardyce and Dyche) then I wouldn't be able to call Moyes' tactics rudimentary in good faith. He's doing an excellent job and there's probably a good reason he's one of the few British managers from a certain era that is still going whilst all the rest have faded away.

[dazfrancis]

Tbh after some of the managers we've had (namely Allardyce and Dyche) then I wouldn't be able to call Moyes' tactics rudimentary in good faith. He's doing an excellent job and there's probably a good reason he's one of the few British managers from a certain era that is still going whilst all the rest have faded away.

Fair enough, rudimentary might be a bit unfair but it's still a bit bit old school in style but he wouldn't be still as successful as he is if he wasn't adaptable able to evolve.

But I'm still primarily of the belief that the key to his success is his ability squeeze as much quality out of his squad as possible