David Moyes

[superpull]

I was against him coming back and spent a bit of time negging everything related to him.

All the stuff we're hating at the moment, all the "no the man for the next level" stuff you're all thinking?
Well, he is the man to take us to the next level when we realise 12 months ago our level was "shit championship club in financial difficulties who have no real prospect of getting promoted next year". Because it was only through outright miracles we weren't already there.

The level after that was "relegation candidates". I feel he has blown past that.
Now we're just a shit, irrelevant mid-table club who will both win and lose some games you dont expect.

I'd actually back him to take it up another level and bring a fight for Europe back to the club. Not this year. Maybe not even next.
But whilst there is a material improvement in league positions, his job is safe for me. (he'll never win us a cup though!)

[Goaljira]

I'd give him another contract accepting the positives and negatives, but I'll reserve the right to moan about everything.

We've seen how fine the margins are between stability and chaos, and I can't be arsed with that again at the minute.

[Toddacelli]

[quote=AjaxAndy post_id=152124 time=1767870519

That's the squad we had last night... Did Moyes use it to it's full potential? Hard to say, probably not but not confident any changes make a difference.

Probably not a surprise we're struggling without KDH, Ndaiye, Gana and that's not including Branthwaite who would make a massive difference.

It is what it is, sometimes you're going to struggle when you have a paper thin squad and most of your best players are out, and any changes you could make don't move the needle an inch.
[/quote]


But to not even TRY though.

To be happy with grinding out points and avoiding relegation.
To not try having an actual RB to see what a difference it makes to the team shape.
To not try players in their best positions because there is an older, more experienced player who can do a bad job instead.
To not give young players minutes for development, confidence and to take some of the burden off this tiny squad.
To not try a change, at home, to Wolves, when winning but the game is slipping away…

Not good enough and my motto is Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.

Very, very grateful, love Moyes, he can date my sister and he never has to buy a drink if I’m there, but he is not the man to fly this brand new shiny stadium-spaceship into the future. He’s just not.

[sam of the south]

Pickford - elite
JOB - probably worst RB in the league
Tarks - average CB having a stinker of a season
Keane - violent thug (just kidding - below average CB having a good season)
Mykolenko - mid table championship LB
Garner - average premier league CM
Tim - raw with some really strong points and some big weaknesses
Armstrong - kid with potential
Grealish - brilliant technician but not what we need
Barry - raw, largely anonymous and learning on the job
McNeil - finished at this level

Subs:
Beto - never had been and never will be a premier league player
Rohl - not ready, not sure he's actually any good anyway
Patterson - equal worst RB in the league
Aznou - a million miles of ready, might never be
Dibling - huge potential but not able to put in any sort of physical battle and gets totally bullied

That's the squad we had last night... Did Moyes use it to it's full potential? Hard to say, probably not but not confident any changes make a difference.

Probably not a surprise we're struggling without KDH, Ndaiye, Gana and that's not including Branthwaite who would make a massive difference.

It is what it is, sometimes you're going to struggle when you have a paper thin squad and most of your best players are out, and any changes you could make don't move the needle an inch.

We’ve had the same squad the last 3 games, though, including Forest, where we won comfortably and looked more solid and balanced than we have most of the season, albeit with an unfit (but actual) rb in Patterson, JOB in his actual position at cb (another clean sheet, even with the shaky Tarkowski next him) Dibling doing good bits at rw (maybe because he had an actual rb backing him up, unlike against Brentford) and even McNeil doing alright on the left.

I appreciate we are bare bones, but when we had that performance and result against Forest, I’d wager that a lot of it had to do with players playing in their actual positions, and the combinations and balance that comes along with that.

[AjaxAndy]

I get the argument about players in their right positions but something that hasn't been considered here is playing at home Vs away... We looked good against Forest because we sat deep and had no onus on us to be the ones trying to play on the front foot.

Also:

JOB Vs Patterson is a flip of the coin, both equally bad at RB.

We have lost all our creative players so our most likely way to score is a set piece... Put Patterson at RB and you lose Keane's height. That's Keane who scored last night and hit the post, so there's an obvious logic to keeping him in.

Same goes for McNeil who has the advantage over Dibling of delivering dangerous set pieces for the tall players to feed off.

Patterson is a walking disaster defensively, so whilst JOB and Tarks is a better CB pairing you lose something to gain something else... Plus the goal threat is reduced as above.

It's just different shades of shite. You can move the chairs around but there still always someone left standing and causing a commotion about it.

[blueToffee]

I'd keep Moyes around, I don't think you turn around a squad as depleted as ours over one season...although Sunderland sort of challenge that argument, but they're a bit of a outlier.

I'd like to see what he can do with 2 functional fullbacks and a few more options in the mix.

All that said, if we did end up with him going seeing as we're now going back to old managers...Marco Silva part 2 anyone? He's likely be out of contract by then.

[brap2]

[Matt1878]

Are we back to questioning Moyes credentials again this week then? Righty ho.

[sam of the south]

I get the argument about players in their right positions but something that hasn't been considered here is playing at home Vs away... We looked good against Forest because we sat deep and had no onus on us to be the ones trying to play on the front foot.

Also:

JOB Vs Patterson is a flip of the coin, both equally bad at RB.

We have lost all our creative players so our most likely way to score is a set piece... Put Patterson at RB and you lose Keane's height. That's Keane who scored last night and hit the post, so there's an obvious logic to keeping him in.

Same goes for McNeil who has the advantage over Dibling of delivering dangerous set pieces for the tall players to feed off.

Patterson is a walking disaster defensively, so whilst JOB and Tarks is a better CB pairing you lose something to gain something else... Plus the goal threat is reduced as above.

It's just different shades of shite. You can move the chairs around but there still always someone left standing and causing a commotion about it.

Yeah, I feel you on the Keane goal threat thing, but that extra pace JOB brings at cb makes it seem so much more solid, and potentially enterprising (potential of a higher line, whether Moyes wants to risk it is another matter, though)

I’d argue that Patterson is a better rb than JOB, particularly in attack, and especially if he gets more minutes in the legs. He was a shitshow pre-season, but did I hear he was carrying a hernia or something?

You lost me on McNeil, though, he really is plop these days. Can’t imagine him creating 8 shooting opportunities or whatever it was that Dibling managed at Burnley.

[AjaxAndy]

Yeah, I feel you on the Keane goal threat thing, but that extra pace JOB brings at cb makes it seem so much more solid, and potentially enterprising (potential of a higher line, whether Moyes wants to risk it is another matter, though)

I’d argue that Patterson is a better rb than JOB, particularly in attack, and especially if he gets more minutes in the legs. He was a shitshow pre-season, but did I hear he was carrying a hernia or something?

You lost me on McNeil, though, he really is plop these days. Can’t imagine him creating 8 shooting opportunities or whatever it was that Dibling managed at Burnley.

My point with McNeil is that if you're playing loads of tall players in the hope you score from set pieces (as there's no creative players apart from Grealish to create from open play) then you pick the dead ball specialist over the guy who isn't going to supply anything with this particular area of the game.

I think there's an argument to be made for a Patterson-Dibling right side and a Tarks-JOB pairing, it's what I'd personally prefer... I just think it's a much of a muchness as what you gain you lose elsewhere.

That's the issue with an imbalance squad unfortunately.

[kramer]

I’d just like to see him try all of his best footballers in those wide triangles.

So much of what works for Moyes tactically is overloading one side of the pitch until one man comes free in a dangerous area and working a chance from a dinked cross or cutback.

Armstrong was desperate for someone to play with on the right hand side. Why not bring on Dibling and Patterson with 20 minutes left? Why not bring Aznou on for 20 minutes to link up with Grealish and hopefully KDH when he’s back?

I get that his team selections are ultra fair and all about who’s working hardest in training but it bothers me that he won’t even entertain these experiments in small pockets of the match, even when we have little left to lose.

I’m going to trust that the Friedkins have learned from their Roma experience and will press the right buttons here. Moyes is sort of the Rainieri, someone who stabilized a chaotic situation. I think they are going to stick with him until they can tempt someone of Gasperini’s relative ilk.

I agree with whoever said he should get a new contract but I reserve the right to complain about all of the annoyances. I really just want this more experienced version of Moyes to know when he can loosen his belt but he still doesn’t seem to have a clue about that.

[NickNack]

Are we back to questioning Moyes credentials again this week then? Righty ho.

I’d never question his credentials but do find some of his decisions frustrating at times. That’s how football is though and there’s no doubt in my mind that despite the frustrations he’s definitely the right man for the job in the short / medium term

The other thing is when the time does come for him to move on TFG have got a massive job on their hands sourcing a replacement who can keep us stable and move us to the next level. As we’ve seen here and elsewhere, the wrong appointment can turn into a disaster very quickly

[Matt1878]

A time comes where a club's ambition should call into question if anyone is still the right person for the role, players, managers back room staff, there should be a culture of continual improvement.

At the moment he's doing a stellar job and he has proven with us before he has several levels higher he can take us. Whether he plateaus like he did in the 2000's, when basically skint and performing miracles to get us regular 6-4th slots is up for question. With more backing he may take us on futher, or he may not and that proves to be his glass ceiling, he may well fall short of repeating it even. I'm just not arsed about that right now, he's doing a great job and deserves to continue to be backed. Its more the knee jerk reaction after every defeat that in future we need to get rid at sone point, that is annoying. Do a West Ham and get rid when we're feeling too big for our boots after a bit of success, if you like, but at least hold fire until we've seen how far he can take us.

Or dont... but personally I'll see where we stand end of next season.

[sam of the south]

My point with McNeil is that if you're playing loads of tall players in the hope you score from set pieces (as there's no creative players apart from Grealish to create from open play) then you pick the dead ball specialist over the guy who isn't going to supply anything with this particular area of the game.

I think there's an argument to be made for a Patterson-Dibling right side and a Tarks-JOB pairing, it's what I'd personally prefer... I just think it's a much of a muchness as what you gain you lose elsewhere.

That's the issue with an imbalance squad unfortunately.

Yeah I got what you meant about the set piece thing, but having McNeil on just for set pieces is just like having an even shitter Sigurdsson on the pitch.

Plus, Garner is better than him on set pieces anyway.

[KingdingalingNL]

Yeah I got what you meant about the set piece thing, but having McNeil on just for set pieces is just like having an even shitter Sigurdsson on the pitch.

Plus, Garner is better than him on set pieces anyway.

McNeil was absolutely shit. Playing him out of position is criminal. He has proven he cannot play on the right yet he gets to play on the right above a player who plays on the right.

I personally did not want Moyes back and I hate to say the reason why is now showing.

The team is playing shit, but let's solve this by playing players out of position to further unbalance the team aswell.

The reason Tarks and O'brien worked better is because they are a better match than Tarks and Keane. Having an actual right back next to them helped as the team was better balanced. Patterson isn't very good but do not underestimate how important balance in a squad is.

Moyes is not somebody who takes chances, so even testing Aznou in a actual game, playing Dibling more just doesn't come to mind with him because he goes for the I know the lads I select have actual premier league experience.

If he doesn't play Aznou and so on then they never will have experience. Let's be honest players like Keane and Mykolenko have x amount of brain farts per game, but hey they have experience. Why not let the so called less experienced players have a go, wil they make mistakes? Maybe they will, but the lads with experiance also make them so it's better the younger lads get a chance and learn. Aznou has more talent than Myko in his little toe, just let him have a go! Dibling needs games, McNeil over Dibling is just wrong. I have never seen a more one footed player in my life than McNeil, he was easily marked on the ball as he is very predictable through only having 1 leg.

I'm at the stage now of just fucking try something different with what we have. People could say ah yes but he brought Armstrong back and he is young, yes he is but we all knew he has what it takes and he has proven that at Preston so he wasn't a risk. For me Armstrong is a no brainer.

I just want Moyes to shock me and give players a chance and play people who can actually in the position he selects them in.

One thing is for certain McNeil should not be selected on the right ever again if I had my way he just wouldn't be selected.

I am not calling for Moyes to be sacked, but I would of preferred us to have set a plan for the future with a clear plan of how we want to play and then appoint said manager to take us forward.

They made their choice I didn't think it was the correct choice, but maybe more what we needed at that time. I just hope he is not our long term plan.