Dyche - HE'S GONE

[AjaxAndy]

Dobbin is a million miles away from being a premier league player, really don't think Dyche has got it wrong by not starting a lad who's maybe league one ability.

Obviously gets it wrong by starting Young but it's not like Dobbin is going to be any good either.

Think the shouts for Patterson getting some time at right midfield are a lot more valid than giving Dobbin game time.

[Free Agent]

Garner RB and Patterson in front of him
Might as well try it

[Toddacelli]

Important question - IS It horrible style wise, we've got a few evangelists for his brand on here haven't we?

Dunno. Think it’s sweetcorn tbh.

I’m not enjoying it for most parts, but a couple of my mates (Forest fan and Arsenal fan) have said we play really good football so have I even forgotten what good football is?

Mostly I think the few good bits stand out more, like golden niblets of juicy sweetcorn, in a greasy, steaming turd.

[Goaljira]

Dunno. Think it’s sweetcorn tbh.

I’m not enjoying it for most parts, but a couple of my mates (Forest fan and Arsenal fan) have said we play really good football so have I even forgotten what good football is?

Mostly I think the few good bits stand out more, like golden niblets of juicy sweetcorn, in a greasy, steaming turd.

Your Arsenal fan mate is taking the piss. They play a completely different game to us.

[4evablu]

TBH sick of saying it...we need to get our strikers playing on the half turn not with back to goal and cant turn...long lumped up balls into their head or onto their chest is killing us.....beto's & DCL first touch are both shite...so to expect them to bring the ball in, turn a defender and go forward is too much to ask...play to their strengths ie: beto's pace and power and if your gonna play DCL his ability to lay it off with a second striker or number 10 just off him....why was DCL so good and scoring when James was playing? because he played him in whilst he was on the turn and running forward...end of!

[AndSeel]

Dunno. Think it’s sweetcorn tbh.

I’m not enjoying it for most parts, but a couple of my mates (Forest fan and Arsenal fan) have said we play really good football so have I even forgotten what good football is?

Mostly I think the few good bits stand out more, like golden niblets of juicy sweetcorn, in a greasy, steaming turd.

Good football is winning Football.

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[Shogun]

Don't rate Dobbin at all but when you see McNeil, Harrison and Young running through treacle on the wing then I do think it's a valid reason to ask why he's not getting more minutes whilst Danjuma is out.

[brap2]

I mean Danjuma when fit played about 5 minutes.

He likes shite workhorses who can't kick a ball.

Defensive shape out of possession first, everything else we'll see what time we have after class.

[Bluedylan1]

People say good football is winning football, and I take the point that there's multiple ways to skin a cat, but ultimately all the best teams in the league and the world play possession football, and times when non-possession based teams have been effective for a sustained period are very much a massive exception to the rule.

Even Simeone has openly admitted that his old low block 4-4-2 grind doesn't work anymore and changed his style at Atletico to make them more possession based and technical.

“Football has changed,” he told La Gazzetta. “I think about [Diego] Godín and that generation; today, they would be overwhelmed in how they played. Everything is much quicker and I have also had to refresh my methods as a coach.”

If you play quite negative, outdated, percentage football you have to be ''successful'' with it. So while that style is presented as safer and risk-averse, it's actually more risky in a way because once the results stop coming, it falls apart quite quickly. If you're trying to do something more progressive, as long as it's not a disaster, people are more willing to have patience.

I think for us, that's what's happening. When results were coming to a decent level earlier in the season, fans and players were willing to hold their noses and accept the agricultural style because we were picking up points. Now that we haven't won for the longest run in our entire history, it becomes very difficult to defend the approach.

If the club was remotely stable, there'd be huge pressure on the manager for that run of results and performances. People praise Dyche for putting up with the chaos around the club, and there's some validity to that, but also the chaos is actively shielding him from serious pressure and scrutiny.

[Paddockoldie]

TBH sick of saying it...we need to get our strikers playing on the half turn not with back to goal and cant turn...long lumped up balls into their head or onto their chest is killing us.....beto's & DCL first touch are both shite...so to expect them to bring the ball in, turn a defender and go forward is too much to ask...play to their strengths ie: beto's pace and power and if your gonna play DCL his ability to lay it off with a second striker or number 10 just off him....why was DCL so good and scoring when James was playing? because he played him in whilst he was on the turn and running forward...end of!

Absolutely... the bonus being, we won't be as predictable as we are now.

[AjaxAndy]

People say good football is winning football, and I take the point that there's multiple ways to skin a cat, but ultimately all the best teams in the league and the world play possession football, and times when non-possession based teams have been effective for a sustained period are very much a massive exception to the rule.

Even Simeone has openly admitted that his old low block 4-4-2 grind doesn't work anymore and changed his style at Atletico to make them more possession based and technical.



If you play quite negative, outdated, percentage football you have to be ''successful'' with it. So while that style is presented as safer and risk-averse, it's actually more risky in a way because once the results stop coming, it falls apart quite quickly. If you're trying to do something more progressive, as long as it's not a disaster, people are more willing to have patience.

I think for us, that's what's happening. When results were coming to a decent level earlier in the season, fans and players were willing to hold their noses and accept the agricultural style because we were picking up points. Now that we haven't won for the longest run in our entire history, it becomes very difficult to defend the approach.

If the club was remotely stable, there'd be huge pressure on the manager for that run of results and performances. People praise Dyche for putting up with the chaos around the club, and there's some validity to that, but also the chaos is actively shielding him from serious pressure and scrutiny.

I get what you're saying, but also the Simeone comparison is someone chasing success against some of the best teams around, and I'm not sure it's really comparable to a relegation dog fight where every point is massive. Too many draws for Atletico might mean finishing 4th, those draw might see us 4th bottom. It's a totally different ball game down the wrong end of the table.

I honestly don't think we can judge anything until the end of the season, if we don't get relegated despite a points deduction and potentially a second one, with a threadbare squad and very little quality I'd say whatever he deemed necessary was correct.

If we go down, or next season isn't good despite a clean slate and maybe some reinforcements (let's go best case scenario and pretend we actually reinvest the Branthwaite money) I think we can say it's Dyche and not the desperate circumstances.

After all desperate circumstances call for desperate measures... If the circumstances aren't desperate and he continues with the same measures than questions will definitely need to be asked.

[Bluedylan1]

I get what you're saying, but also the Simeone comparison is someone chasing success against some of the best teams around, and I'm not sure it's really comparable to a relegation dog fight where every point is massive. Too many draws for Atletico might mean finishing 4th, those draw might see us 4th bottom. It's a totally different ball game down the wrong end of the table.

I honestly don't think we can judge anything until the end of the season, if we don't get relegated despite a points deduction and potentially a second one, with a threadbare squad and very little quality I'd say whatever he deemed necessary was correct.

If we go down, or next season isn't good despite a clean slate and maybe some reinforcements (let's go best case scenario and pretend we actually reinvest the Branthwaite money) I think we can say it's Dyche and not the desperate circumstances.

After all desperate circumstances call for desperate measures... If the circumstances aren't desperate and he continues with the same measures than questions will definitely need to be asked.

No I'm obviously not comparing our aims or ambitions to Atletico Madrid. That kinda goes without saying. I'm just addressing why I think the ''winning football is good football'' truism is a bit of a fallacy in my opinion. And I'm pointing out why Dyche's kind of football, in whatever situation he's in, because we've never seen his teams play any other way, is actually quite risky because people lose faith very quickly unless you are getting regular results, which he's not. Would you disagree with that?

Look, I know you like Dyche and you defend him in all conversations that seek to question him. That's fine. We disagree. I defend things or people I believe in strongly too. No problem with that.

Ultimately almost everyone pretty much dislikes the football, we've had the longest winless run in the club's entire history, we've won a pitiful 3 games at Goodison this season and unless we do summat at Old Trafford we'll be going from December to April without a win in the Premier League. If the club wasn't basically rudderless at the top, and beset by issues around points deductions and ownership, any manager in his position would be under pressure. I don't think that's a massively controversial take.

As it is, he's not under pressure for those reasons. I accept and acknowledge that. I'm just pointing out that the chaos is doing him a bit of a favour in some ways.

[AjaxAndy]

No I'm obviously not comparing our aims or ambitions to Atletico Madrid. That kinda goes without saying. I'm just addressing why I think the ''winning football is good football'' truism is a bit of a fallacy in my opinion. And I'm pointing out why Dyche's kind of football, in whatever situation he's in, because we've never seen his teams play any other way, is actually quite risky because people lose faith very quickly unless you are getting regular results, which he's not. Would you disagree with that?

Look, I know you like Dyche and you defend him in all conversations that seek to question him. That's fine. We disagree. I defend things or people I believe in strongly too. No problem with that.

Ultimately almost everyone pretty much dislikes the football, we've had the longest winless run in the club's entire history, we've won a pitiful 3 games at Goodison this season and unless we do summat at Old Trafford we'll be going from December to April without a win in the Premier League. If the club wasn't basically rudderless at the top, and beset by issues around points deductions and ownership, any manager in his position would be under pressure. I don't think that's a massively controversial take.

As it is, he's not under pressure for those reasons. I accept and acknowledge that. I'm just pointing out that the chaos is doing him a bit of a favour in some ways.

Yeah that makes sense mate, I think he's lost a few people on here post Palace purely because of the style and lack of ambition... I'd imagine eventually the tide would turn to the point of it being untenable if we saw the same next season with a clean slate too.

It's definitely in Dyche's interest to make things more enjoyable on the pitch for fans because patience will only last so long for those accepting of it right now.

I don't expect anything from Man U but even a point with looking a competent side would be great for everyone's moral going in to the break.

[superpull]

People say good football is winning football, and I take the point that there's multiple ways to skin a cat, but ultimately all the best teams in the league and the world play possession football, and times when non-possession based teams have been effective for a sustained period are very much a massive exception to the rule.

Even Simeone has openly admitted that his old low block 4-4-2 grind doesn't work anymore and changed his style at Atletico to make them more possession based and technical.



If you play quite negative, outdated, percentage football you have to be ''successful'' with it. So while that style is presented as safer and risk-averse, it's actually more risky in a way because once the results stop coming, it falls apart quite quickly. If you're trying to do something more progressive, as long as it's not a disaster, people are more willing to have patience.

I think for us, that's what's happening. When results were coming to a decent level earlier in the season, fans and players were willing to hold their noses and accept the agricultural style because we were picking up points. Now that we haven't won for the longest run in our entire history, it becomes very difficult to defend the approach.

If the club was remotely stable, there'd be huge pressure on the manager for that run of results and performances. People praise Dyche for putting up with the chaos around the club, and there's some validity to that, but also the chaos is actively shielding him from serious pressure and scrutiny.

Football is always changing.

I am starting to see a weird (possibly generational thing tied in with the "permanence of sky/the premier league/the "big 4/5/6") move towards a prescribed dogma.

But the flat 442 was revolutionary at one point. When we won the FA cup in 1933 we played a 235 formation.

You are right to say there are concepts of football that are now outdated. But the belief that the current style is something to aim for specifically is quite flawed for a number of reasons.

[TheRam]

I just don’t have the energy for this tbh.

It’s the most difficult job in the country.

He’s done very, very well to keep us away from real trouble.

The football we play is of no concern to me. That type of discussion is years away.

I think as a fanbase we can probably try a bit better to get behind managers when we get into a slump like this, especially when you see what they have to deal with.

He hasn’t used the situation with the club, or the deduction as an excuse once, and his ‘just get on with it’ mentality is refreshing in a world where most managers thrive on a victim complex.

Deserves our time and patience more than any manager we’ve had since Moyes.