David Moyes

[Bluebridge]

Honestly I'd say that we weren't on an upwards trajectory prior to the last games and that we were probably overperforming in results the reality of what we were seeing on the pitch, we got a number of wins very much against the run of play IMO

For me the trajectory is independent to the actual results it's more about what we see on the pitch and I've not been impressed since Grealish was injured

The opposite also applies, we lost/drew a lot of games against the run of play.

[superpull]

I think the results were the only positive. We were shit in the cup. Weve been shit in the transfer market. We play boring football. Once the results dry up what are the positives. What progress has been made if its not in points or league positions?? Weve just spent a load of money on players who cant get in the team to stand still

Whilst I agree with a lot of the sentiment, I wanna push back on you keeping up with the "we spent money and stood still" barb.
Because the money we have spent isn't extraordinary. It wasn't huge sums compared to the rest of the league.

Spending no money makes you go backwards. Spending £120m (wolves spent £100m for reference Sunderland £150m, Newcastle £250m) is a signal that "standing still" is your actual goal.


But yeah: your overall point that the entire thing is a drag and we should want better is still a valid one.

[777Kidnappings]

Whilst I agree with a lot of the sentiment, I wanna push back on you keeping up with the "we spent money and stood still" barb.
Because the money we have spent isn't extraordinary. It wasn't huge sums compared to the rest of the league.

Spending no money makes you go backwards. Spending £120m (wolves spent £100m for reference Sunderland £150m, Newcastle £250m) is a signal that "standing still" is your actual goal.


But yeah: your overall point that the entire thing is a drag and we should want better is still a valid one.

But its extraordinary for what we got. We signed left back cover who isnt our left back cover. We signed a striker significantly worse than beto. A 6th choice winger.

Its not that im saying we spent this money so we should be achieving this but to sign a load of squad players instead of first teamers is extremely poor.

[777Kidnappings]

Whilst I agree with a lot of the sentiment, I wanna push back on you keeping up with the "we spent money and stood still" barb.
Because the money we have spent isn't extraordinary. It wasn't huge sums compared to the rest of the league.

Spending no money makes you go backwards. Spending £120m (wolves spent £100m for reference Sunderland £150m, Newcastle £250m) is a signal that "standing still" is your actual goal.


But yeah: your overall point that the entire thing is a drag and we should want better is still a valid one.

I think people have moved the goalposts on the expectations of our new players. Its all wait and see now but had someone said in the summer our left back cover wouldn't ever be trusted to cover at left back. Or that wed spend 120m a not get a right back. Or that our new striker wouldn't be any upgrade on beto. Or alcaraz would be a bit part player. Or that wed spend 35m on a winger and get another in jan on loan and they'd both still play less than mcneil (whos been poor) people would have been horrified. We didnt spend significantly more than a lot of teams but we did spend awfully.

It goes to the question of progress. Id imagine most of our new signings are regretting coming. Which doesnt help when attracting new players and it doesnt help with the players we signed development

We went for results over embedding players and developing players. Which is fine until you end the season with 49pts in 13th place

[superpull]

I think people have moved the goalposts on the expectations of our new players. Its all wait and see now but had someone said in the summer our left back cover wouldn't ever be trusted to cover at left back. Or that wed spend 120m a not get a right back. Or that our new striker wouldn't be any upgrade on beto. Or alcaraz would be a bit part player. Or that wed spend 35m on a winger and get another in jan on loan and they'd both still play less than mcneil (whos been poor) people would have been horrified. We didnt spend significantly more than a lot of teams but we did spend awfully.

It goes to the question of progress. Id imagine most of our new signings are regretting coming. Which doesnt help when attracting new players and it doesnt help with the players we signed development

We went for results over embedding players and developing players. Which is fine until you end the season with 49pts in 13th place

I genuinely think Dibling is the only one to raise an eyebrow from me.

Aznou is so obviously a raw that it felt like an u21 signing.
Barry was similarly cheap (and, to be fair, Moyes has spoken about this today and said we brought him in raw and we didn't plan on playing him as much as we did).

I was astonished that anybody saw enough in Alcaraz to want to see him permanently to be honest.

Only having a solitary plan for a right back and not taking the hint that Southampton were taking the piss out of us were the two red marks in my book.

[TheRam]

I don't know, praising when things are good and criticising when they're bad isn't nuance, it's just reacting to results. Most player threads are full of it: future captain to not good enough in 3 games, depending on the last performance.

Nuance is asking why. What's driving the good runs and the bad ones, what context surrounds them, when does praise apply and when does patience.
"You're only as good as where you finish" is the opposite of that. Real nuance factors in where the club was when he took over, the squad, injuries, the quality of the teams around us, how those teams are run and managed, and the whole season's trajectory, not just the last 6 games or final league position in isolation.

Some would call that nuance, others would call it making excuses for what’s going to be a failure of a season.

[777Kidnappings]

I genuinely think Dibling is the only one to raise an eyebrow from me.

Aznou is so obviously a raw that it felt like an u21 signing.
Barry was similarly cheap (and, to be fair, Moyes has spoken about this today and said we brought him in raw and we didn't plan on playing him as much as we did).

I was astonished that anybody saw enough in Alcaraz to want to see him permanently to be honest.

Only having a solitary plan for a right back and not taking the hint that Southampton were taking the piss out of us were the two red marks in my book.

Dibling is definitely the stand out hes nowhere near the team and was a big buy. Been really disappointed with Barry's overall contribution rather than he goal tally. If we are saying aznou was a u21s player then it still goes back to how didnt we sign left back cover and a right back. Been really disappointed how little weve used alcaraz too

Maybe only dibling has been a shocker but I dont think we could argue any of them have been a success at all apart from KDH

Its as much about what we didnt do though. What we need this summer is what we needed last summer. Are we really confident we are going to get a right back and left back cover this summer? I think wed all say yes but I think wed all of said yes this time last year too.

[superpull]

Dibling is definitely the stand out hes nowhere near the team and was a big buy. Been really disappointed with Barry's overall contribution rather than he goal tally. If we are saying aznou was a u21s player then it still goes back to how didnt we sign left back cover and a right back. Been really disappointed how little weve used alcaraz too

Maybe only dibling has been a shocker but I dont think we could argue any of them have been a success at all apart from KDH

Its as much about what we didnt do though. What we need this summer is what we needed last summer. Are we really confident we are going to get a right back and left back cover this summer? I think wed all say yes but I think wed all of said yes this time last year too.

What we've needed for the last half a dozen summers...

[UnsyisaRhino]

Some would call that nuance, others would call it making excuses for what’s going to be a failure of a season.

You've kind of made my point for me. Calling any attempt to look past the final table "making excuses" is the exact thing I was describing.

Might as well shutdown the forum until may every year.

[UnsyisaRhino]

Dibling is definitely the stand out hes nowhere near the team and was a big buy. Been really disappointed with Barry's overall contribution rather than he goal tally. If we are saying aznou was a u21s player then it still goes back to how didnt we sign left back cover and a right back. Been really disappointed how little weve used alcaraz too

Maybe only dibling has been a shocker but I dont think we could argue any of them have been a success at all apart from KDH

Its as much about what we didnt do though. What we need this summer is what we needed last summer. Are we really confident we are going to get a right back and left back cover this summer? I think wed all say yes but I think wed all of said yes this time last year too.

I'm not looking forward to the summer at all because I feel like we still can't trust the club (I've no idea who's making transfer decisions) to get right.

If we don't sign a match ready right back before the start of the season I'll struggle to force myself to go to the first home game.

[777Kidnappings]

I'm not looking forward to the summer at all because I feel like we still can't trust the club (I've no idea who's making transfer decisions) to get right.

If we don't sign a match ready right back before the start of the season I'll struggle to force myself to go to the first home game.

I think thats much of everyone's issue. We still cant trust them. It leaves you with not much faith that anything is going to get better.

[TheRam]

You've kind of made my point for me. Calling any attempt to look past the final table "making excuses" is the exact thing I was describing.

Might as well shutdown the forum until may every year.

It is making excuses though.

I don’t see any extreme circumstances that have happened that would have curtailed our season other than underperformance from the manager and the players.

You did the same thing with Dyche if I recall.

[brap2]

If only there was some sort of way to tell you how you’ve done over the course of 38 games + cups that would help you contextualise a full season rather than responding reactively or with recency bias.

Some sort of like record of a results with rewards for different levels of achievement, a vertical sort of list?

[UnsyisaRhino]

It is making excuses though.

I don’t see any extreme circumstances that have happened that would have curtailed our season other than underperformance from the manager and the players.

You did the same thing with Dyche if I recall.

So circumstances do matter now, but only extreme ones? That's a pretty arbitrary line, and it undermines the earlier "you're only as good as where you finish" point. Either the final position is all that matters or context does. You can't have it both ways.

Also worth noting you've included the players in your underperformance read. Is that you using them as an excuse, or is it context when you do it?

Did I also use wider context to judge Dyche's performance? Yes, same as I do with every manager and player. The same way I judge Jake's performances with the wider context of being played out of position, and our progress based on both performances and results.

[UnsyisaRhino]

If only there was some sort of way to tell you how you’ve done over the course of 38 games + cups that would help you contextualise a full season rather than responding reactively or with recency bias.

Some sort of like record of a results with rewards for different levels of achievement, a vertical sort of list?

If only there was some sort of way to read what others actually wrote before responding. Some sort of like collection of words, arranged in a horizontal sort of line?

The argument was never that the table doesn't exist. It was that the table on its own isn't the full picture.