Even if Keane played well, it doesn't reflect well on the manager that he didn't think O Brien was worth a game when the whole defence was playing shite for months. When you are talking about Ashley Young being your best performer in defence consistently, shit has gone sideways
AjaxAndy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2025 4:33 pm
Of course people will say whatever they feel is true, and the goals against was certainly very high... Keane was though one of our best performers over that period and just about the only one who was actually able to progress the ball (highest % completed progressive passes in the team).
Tactics, playing people like Tim, Tarks being shite, Pickford being poor all contributed to the goals against. The Bournemouth loss was a great example of why we conceded too many goals and none of that was on Keane.
I don't want him to stay, he's been overall a bit of a disaster for us, but he deserved his place over O'Brien (who's yet to show any performance level in a back 2 it should be noted).
But like I said people have the stuff they believe and certain players will get a rough ride and blamed for stuff they weren't even at fault for because people don't like them. Understandable that's the way it is with Keane given his time here, even if in this case I think the argument is junk.
He does the basics well 90% of the time and he is a very good passer and has excellent striking technique when he puts his foot through the ball… but he’s been fucking wank when we’ve needed him to be solid. Good most of the time is not good enough at this level. Should drop a level or two and take a Pirlo role where he doesn’t need to defend, he won’t be exposed for pace and he can spray it round to his heart’s content while the commentators wax lyrical about how stupid Everton were to let him go. I’m all for that. Good luck to the lad.
Toddacelli wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2025 9:57 pm
He does the basics well 90% of the time and he is a very good passer and has excellent striking technique when he puts his foot through the ball… but he’s been fucking wank when we’ve needed him to be solid. Good most of the time is not good enough at this level. Should drop a level or two and take a Pirlo role where he doesn’t need to defend, he won’t be exposed for pace and he can spray it round to his heart’s content while the commentators wax lyrical about how stupid Everton were to let him go. I’m all for that. Good luck to the lad.
Agree mostly with the first bit, but I think for all the valid criticisms regarding his time with us overall, we can't say he wasnt one of our better performers early in the season, and at other times, as dire as it was. He's often heavily maligned, despite scoring important goals and defending well in certain setups. Not a big claim, but still needs a mention I think.
I'm encouraged by OBrien, but it's still very early for him, especially playing in a different position with safety around him.
Nothing has particularly stood out for me with him so far, apart from his height and good footspeed, think maybe like Patterson he also needs time in a role to progress.
Put Keane up top when in the last 5 mins when we are chasing in a game, always feel he has a better chance of scoring than the likes of Beton other forwards.
Cods wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2025 11:13 pm
Agree mostly with the first bit, but I think for all the valid criticisms regarding his time with us overall, we can't say he wasnt one of our better performers early in the season, and at other times, as dire as it was. He's often heavily maligned, despite scoring important goals and defending well in certain setups. Not a big claim, but still needs a mention I think.
I'm encouraged by OBrien, but it's still very early for him, especially playing in a different position with safety around him.
Nothing has particularly stood out for me with him so far, apart from his height and good footspeed, think maybe like Patterson he also needs time in a role to progress.
Disagree. There were times he looked good and times he did good things early doors, but he was still a big part of the problem when it comes to the goals we shipped.
Regardless of how good he looked on the ball or how good some of his defending was at times, he is not the answer, it’s time for O’Brien.
Toddacelli wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2025 6:58 am
Disagree. There were times he looked good and times he did good things early doors, but he was still a big part of the problem when it comes to the goals we shipped.
Regardless of how good he looked on the ball or how good some of his defending was at times, he is not the answer, it’s time for O’Brien.
I don't think anyone is saying Keane is the answer, just that he played well early in the season and Moyes is using O'Brien really well by not asking him to play in a back 2 yet.
Think we'll all breath a sigh of relief when Keane's contract expires and he's no longer part of the squad, albeit with some thanks for a few important goals at vital times.
I remember a certain poster comments about the reasons why O’Brien is not starting, he’s crap with absolute certainty. Then a smug comment when he didn’t start against Villa, funnily enough, not heard anything else about him since?
Point is, feels like some people get strangely tied into a Dyche shaped argument and can’t shift themselves out of it when the evidence is presented.
Juanito wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:36 am
I remember a certain poster comments about the reasons why O’Brien is not starting, he’s crap with absolute certainty. Then a smug comment when he didn’t start against Villa, funnily enough, not heard anything else about him since?
Point is, feels like some people get strangely tied into a Dyche shaped argument and can’t shift themselves out of it when the evidence is presented.
And then if you have the temerity to later point this out (once) when the player clearly demonstrates he's not shit, it's then met with ''let it go'', ''you're obsessed'', ''enjoy the team playing well'' and other variations of that, despite the entire site having to endure months and months of endless miserabilism and nihilism from certain posters on every thread, where the site becomes almost unpleasant to be on.
Probably would have done more harm than good. Dyche would never have found this position for him and we're yet to see how he fares as a CB. Still reflects poorly on the manager that he chose Keane ahead of him like.
The problem with rating Keane's performances is that his bar is so low. People seem to consider him not being directly responsible for a goal with a mistake during a game as equalling a 'good performance', and I think the start of this season is a case in point.
As far as O'Brien goes, it may be that his lack of game time under Dyche may actually be a blessing. He's come in to the side with the pressure off slightly with lower expectations, and as part of a team who seem to be finding an identity and a worthwhile way of playing.
At the end of the day O'Brien played on a back 2 in pre-season and looked ropey, he then played in a back 2 in a Caraboa Cup game and didn't look good losing 100% of his arial duels against lower league opposition.
Moyes isn't playing him in a back 2, instead he's doing something he's done before with young CBs and playing him as a full back and also a back 3.
It's very easy to say X or Y would have DEFINITELY happened if something had happened 6 months ago that didn't because there's no way to disprove it. Doesn't actually mean it's true.
If Moyes continues to blood him this way and next season he starts in a back 2 and shines the same people will again say this should have happened sooner even if actually Moyes doing what he's doing what made him ready when he wasn't previously.
It's another cyclical argument where no one wins because there's no way of ever actually knowing what could or would have happened of we'd done something different in the past.
Probably should all just concentrate on the fact Moyes is using him, using him sensibly and O'Brien looks like he's responding with strong performances... Something we can all get behind and celebrate really.
Toddacelli wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2025 6:58 am
Disagree. There were times he looked good and times he did good things early doors, but he was still a big part of the problem when it comes to the goals we shipped.
Regardless of how good he looked on the ball or how good some of his defending was at times, he is not the answer, it’s time for O’Brien.
I disagree with your disagreement Todda. I too think its time for O'Brien, at RB, but I think the characterisation of Keane was too far by most comments. He was more solid than Tarkowski during that period, there were calls to drop Tark for O'Brien as Keane was the better defender.
Thats apart from Pickford being poor, us playing much more open in midfield, and no one at all playing particularly well.
Last edited by Cods on Tue Jan 28, 2025 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
AjaxAndy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2025 10:52 am
At the end of the day O'Brien played on a back 2 in pre-season and looked ropey, he then played in a back 2 in a Caraboa Cup game and didn't look good losing 100% of his arial duels against lower league opposition.
Moyes isn't playing him in a back 2, instead he's doing something he's done before with young CBs and playing him as a full back and also a back 3.
It's very easy to say X or Y would have DEFINITELY happened if something had happened 6 months ago that didn't because there's no way to disprove it. Doesn't actually mean it's true.
If Moyes continues to blood him this way and next season he starts in a back 2 and shines the same people will again say this should have happened sooner even if actually Moyes doing what he's doing what made him ready when he wasn't previously.
It's another cyclical argument where no one wins because there's no way of ever actually knowing what could or would have happened of we'd done something different in the past.
Probably should all just concentrate on the fact Moyes is using him, using him sensibly and O'Brien looks like he's responding with strong performances... Something we can all get behind and celebrate really.
All that mental gymnastics to justify Dyche’s favouritism to one of his Burnley boys.
I too think its time for O'Brien, at RB, but I think the characterisation of Keane was too far by most comments. He was more solid than Tarkowski during that period, there were calls to drop Tark for O'Brien as Keane was the better defender.