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Shogun wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 1:38 am By the same token you can say there must be something about Michael Keane that every manager we've had has brought him into the team and subsequently dropped him for good.

If he wanted to protect Gomes then he should have brought on Danjuma and moved Harrison behind DCL so that he could help out in the midfield where it was obvious our 2 couldn't cope. It's not like we haven't seen Harrison play there this season.

Also, it's not like Wolves aren't playing a packed December and don't have injuries and fatigue of their own. They were arguably without their best player at CM today in Lemina.

Dyche got it wrong. He got the starting line-up wrong which is no shame because even the very best have done that. It is really poor that he didn't change things when it was obvious what was happening and indeed going to happen. We were lucky to get in at HT 0-1 down but still in the game, it was the perfect time to make changes.

It doesn't make him a terrible manager and it doesn't mean he should be sacked, but there's no need to make excuses for him when it's clear as day what happened. And let's not make out Wolves are world beaters, we were ahead of them without the points deduction.

It's done and we move onto the next match, but I don't know why people are so sensitive to Dyche critcism/praise.

I think us having 5 CBs (with Holgate's return), one as captain, and one that currently would walk into any team, means Keane's not playing in a 2. No other reason, and he's streets ahead of our other two. Not a favourite, just a better player, by some distance. 230+ Premier league, and a dozen international senior appearances. He can't be dropped for good if he's actually being called upon.
Yet he's one of two scapegoats by some (not necessarily you, nor is it your argument) for a game where there were obvious errors from other players that led to goals. He's made plenty of mistakes too, but correlation in this case isn't causation.

On Dyche, as we don't have any depth in central midfield with Gana and Doucouré out, an extra body in defence against a tough team away makes some sense, and it had already worked just a fortnight ago (incidentally with Keane pushing into the middle and securing the important second goal). It also matched Wolves formation, player for player, so arguably suited the game situation. With the ebbs and flows of games it also shouldn't have been assumed that we wouldn't turn it around, and there are obvious inherent problems with changing system and tactics (and personnel?) 10 mins into a game, especially if it doesn't work. It's not necessarily about stubbornness (as @AjaxAndy edit: and @Toddacelli explained above)

I think the reason Danjuma isn't chosen to play on the wing is because he isn't really a winger, and moreso not in the way we set up. I've no problem with Harrison in behind DCL having promoted it before we'd even signed him, much prefer it to him being out wide. And that leaves Dobbin. Nah, not yet. I don't see how a right side of Patterson and either of Danjuma or Dobbin doesn't make us considerably more prone to conceding.

I don't know if anyone is making excuses for Dyche, or being defensive, just that there needs to be a bit of context and balance around these claims that he got it all wrong; the simplistic, presumptive 'it's all on Dyche' type comments.

I'd be happy enough with the criticisms as long as the extension to this wasn't the assumed implication 'we would have won/drawn if we'd done this', and subsequent confirmation bias as proof of claim. The alternatives were far from silver bullets, and likely worse.

If there wasn't a smidge of an undercurrent of opposition to an untrendy manager, that many think is below us, (that after 17 games of their first full seasons, had secured only one fewer win than Ancelotti did with a considerably weaker squad in a much more precarious position) ...anyway, he wasn't my first choice either, but he's doing better than anyone will have expected overall, and has suprised most at just how well we've been transformed under him. We've got to understand that sometimes we'll just be outplayed no matter, and regularly will be hamstrung, unable to change the picture for the better.

Trowel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 12:49 pm

I think the reason we're no better than average defensively is pickford, he doesn't have that height or physical presence to come and collect crosses and when he does try its always a bit of a flap.

Don't want to hijack the deduction thread, so I'll put it in here.

If we get another points deduction and surely get relegated then I hope we move on from Dyche. He's doing a very good job but I can't be arsed watching this football in the championship.

Shogun wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 8:42 pm Don't want to hijack the deduction thread, so I'll put it in here.

If we get another points deduction and surely get relegated then I hope we move on from Dyche. He's doing a very good job but I can't be arsed watching this football in the championship.

I'm the opposite, we're very high risk of sinking without a trace so some stability is much needed.

Imagine sacking Dyche and the next manager is a pile of shite, we'd be relegated again and there's no coming back from that.

Need stability and safe hands and see where we are a season or two on from that once the dust has settled and things are on an even keel.

He sets us up not to lose hoping a moment of quality will win the game for us not much of a plan when going behind but grand for now can’t really play good football with the direct ball tactics

He’ll take us up with his slippers on.

If we get another deduction I’ll be giving him a five year deal if he wants it.

AjaxAndy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 8:46 pm I'm the opposite, we're very high risk of sinking without a trace so some stability is much needed.

Imagine sacking Dyche and the next manager is a pile of shite, we'd be relegated again and there's no coming back from that.

Need stability and safe hands and see where we are a season or two on from that once the dust has settled and things are on an even keel.

Appreciate your viewpoint but not for me. No chance should we be getting relegated in the championship, especially with Thelwell actually looking like he has an idea of what he's doing*

*Although I don't know if we'd get points penalties in the championship as well

Either way, I would rather have someone with a view to dominating matches than stick with Dyche and his robust philosophy. I've said many times though, this football just isn't for me. It's worth it to stay in the Premier League and stablise during all the nonsense off the pitch but I'd rather completely reset than firefight in the championship.

I do think he'd get us promoted out of the championship, I just don't see the point long term.

We've had too many shit managers, I'd not be comfortable giving up on a competent one.

If we go down as is the likelihood with another massive deduction, there is no telling how far we could fall, especially if the financial rails completely fall off. Think you'd be insane to remove any stability in that situation.

It’s not just “in the Championship” though, is it. It’s in the Championship and paying £100m a year in interest on the stadium. Almost certainly in administration. Points deductions.

The very future of the club is in the balance, it really is.

Shogun wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 8:51 pm Appreciate your viewpoint but not for me. No chance should we be getting relegated in the championship, especially with Thelwell actually looking like he has an idea of what he's doing*

*Although I don't know if we'd get points penalties in the championship as well

Either way, I would rather have someone with a view to dominating matches than stick with Dyche and his robust philosophy. I've said many times though, this football just isn't for me. It's worth it to stay in the Premier League and stablise during all the nonsense off the pitch but I'd rather completely reset than firefight in the championship.

I do think he'd get us promoted out of the championship, I just don't see the point long term.

I definitely understand where you're coming from, I think my concern with that would be that it's exactly what Burnley have done, yet despite initial positives they look completely inept at Premier League level.

Whereas if Dyche did somehow get us back up he'd have a higher chance of keeping us there.

I appreciate the reset everything idea though because it feels like we've gone past the point of just clearing the cache over the last few years, and switching it off and back on again with a new operating system is appealing.

Another away performance where we've looked 'good' enough to get a win out of the game.

What's the issue at home?

Shogun wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:40 pm Another away performance where we've looked 'good' enough to get a win out of the game.

What's the issue at home?

You're expected to play on the front foot at home, and we can't do that.

Unless we score first, and we're obviously struggling to score at all at the moment, then away teams coming to Goodison tend to dominate, grow in confidence and find moments to win the game.